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I am making my first cheese an Asiago. I wanted to start small as it was my first so I scaled down a recipe to 2 Gallons of milk. Warmed it properly, added thermophilic culture. waited 45 min, then got messed up. I had my ingredients lined up...Lipase for flavor, (not in the recipe but I wanted to add it), Calcium Chloride, and finally Liquid rennet.

After the culture matured, I added what I THOUGHT was the lipase, waited 15 min, then went to add Ca. Chloride and rennet. When I opened the lid, there was NOT milk, but whey on the top. I immediately knew that I had accidentally added the rennet instead of the lipase. I added the Ca Chloride and lipase immediately and gently stirred the already coagulating curd. which was on the bottom. I then let it sit for 45 min, and began cutting the curd. I drained the whey, put the curd in the cheesecloth and press, and hoped for the best. Did the adjustments of PSI as the recipe called for, and after the final 12 hr 50 lb press, had a nice looking, firm cheese without noticeable defects. Brined, dried, and it is currently in a cave for a 3-week age. It LOOKS fine, but does anyone know if it really is ok? I am crossing my fingers that it doesn't fail after all of this work...

Every video Ive seen has showed the curd coagulated on top and then cut. My curd was on the bottom. It only had 15 min to coagulate before I realized my mistake but when I grabbed a handful of pea-sized whey, it seemed solid and fell apart when I dropped it back into the pot. 

Nobody? I was hoping for some guidance or reassurance...It is about a week into "aging" and looks good, but does anyone have some instruction? I made a Mozzarella today and was VERY cautious about adding ingredients as needed, again the whey is on top and the Curd is on the bottom. Every video I watch has the curd on top and easily cut and visualized as coagulated. Please someone give me guidance.

Sorry that you didn't get traction on your post.  To be honest, it's a bit hard to reply  ;)  And please don't get discouraged by what I'm going to write here.  I'm trying to explain why I didn't reply earlier.

There are a couple of things that come to mind.

QuoteI added what I THOUGHT was the lipase, waited 15 min [...] When I opened the lid, there was NOT milk, but whey on the top.

After 15 minutes, I can see the milk coagulating, but if you're getting whey on top, then you have added *much too much* rennet, or maybe the milk is *much too acidic*... or something.  Normally it will just flocculate in about 12 minutes and then you have to wait about 20-30 minutes until it's ready to cut.  You wouldn't get whey floating on top until an hour in.  So... What's going on with your cheese? I have no idea unless you just added about 10 times more rennet than you needed (which is very possible to do).  Or your milk was sour (which is also very possible).

But then, I think.  Maybe your description is not quite right.  "whey on the top" might mean something different to you than it does to me.  I'd need to see the recipe.  I'd need to know what rennet you used (and what IMCU it is).  I'll probably need to explain what IMCU is so that you can tell me, because there is virtually no beginner that knows what it is :-).  I'm not blaming you.  It's just that replying to this post means I've got quite a lot of work ahead of me, likely.

You got cheese in the end.  It will be cheese.  Will it age nicely?  That's a *whole other* hour long post on my part :-)  Aging cheese is quite tricky unless you are vacuum packing it.  After 2 weeks, will you end up with blue mold covering your cheese? Probably.  It happened to all of us when we started.  But you have cheese and it will be fine.  Will it be asiago?  Almost certainly not.  But it will be cheese.

QuoteEvery video Ive seen has showed the curd coagulated on top and then cut. My curd was on the bottom. It only had 15 min to coagulate before I realized my mistake but when I grabbed a handful of pea-sized whey, it seemed solid and fell apart when I dropped it back into the pot.

The curds don't float on top.  The curd forms in one big block.  The whey doesn't drain until you cut the curd (unless you are doing something special, or you are doing it incorrectly).  They whole milk gels.  If the videos are not working like that, then you are looking at the wrong videos.  I have to be honest.  90% of cheese resources on the internet are absolutely terrible. I mean, they are just flat out wrong.  But the thing about cheese is that you can do everything absolutely wrong and still get cheese!  So, in many ways, you just don't have to worry about it if your goal is cheese.  If your goal is a good quality cheese of a specific style, then you have to learn a *lot* and pay attention *a lot* and practice *a lot*.  This is just one cheese.  It's fine.  Once you've done 20 of them, then you'll start to get comfortable about making cheese and can start improving quite quickly.  Don't worry about your first cheese.

So, again, there is something seriously wrong here -- and not just that you added the rennet before you added anything else.  I assume you meant "handful of pea-sized curds".  That just shouldn't happen. That almost certainly means your milk was much too acidic... I guess???  Again, it's really hard to guess what's wrong here except that it's a lot of stuff.

So...  This is just a really hard post to respond to because something went very wrong and it's mainly just that you need to get some more experience making cheese -- and probably need better references than you have now.  But the exciting thing is that you have cheese!  So don't worry about it.

If you need help finding better references for learning how to make cheese, feel free to reach out.  My personal suggestion is to buy Gianaclis Caldwell's "Mastering Artisan Cheesemaking".  It's literally the only book I recommend.  Most other books have pretty bad problems.  In terms of videos, Gavin Weber's videos give a good overall idea of how to do things.  I have problems with some of the things he does, but you'll consistently get cheese if you follow his videos.  If you are looking for specific recipes, I highly recommend looking in the appropriate section of this forum and even asking for some recommendations.  Jim Wallace's recipes on cheesemaking.com are quite good, but often have large errors in them, so you have to be a little careful.  There are a couple of other niche places to get recipes online, but the vast majority of recipes on the internet are just plain wrong, so you have to tread carefully.

I hope that helps!

Thank you SO much for trying to help. The rennet is vegetable rennet instructions say "half tablet will set 2 gal. milk in 45 min. I added a half tab. I don't have a pH meter so I can't test the milk but it is store-bought 2% pasteurized and homogenized cow's milk. I doubt the pH is drastically out of whack.
Culture is "CHEESE CULTURE, THERMOPHILIC TYPE B - FOR ITALIAN STYLE CHEESES"
I used Gavin Webber's recipe on YouTube, he seems to be very knowledgeable. Here is a screenshot of the recipe

(https://previews.dropbox.com/p/thumb/ACBJjMi9TqwrhNDObUyD7X0V-V4zvJWu65p7SPGLq76Ygj2uzf-7nT1l-Zh4U5NOLtTiJS0xA2BpIj_v343buxGZcR9dxRFt3uVv2xdU0TfJ3vfCr94vWLaohEW-8B_cuT6ERecrQgBKtTlg1usf9GuKnnzmRLZuSPDX52DS5kPVL37EpObp2SefDwesBJ2ls4yqXBhBrPPiTR8uOmK4ruVjpkTMV6XaSnd_EopQAddbCW5TmvR34vpDF6c_a2ouZO2gT9ZIqj1FC5iC3FYtWr53_YBbmkIyYfYnjza9X2wPehCETZm16J-N7DeiTvquM-IFA5OBJn6DbeR8u8sywwiQ/p.jpeg)

When I say the whey is on top, I mean that I put the rennet in, give a quick stir, Stop the milk from continuing to swirl by putting my spoon in, and walk away for 45 min. Upon return, I have several inches of whey and can't see the curds. They have fallen to the bottom of the pot. This is not normal from what I have seen. I tried making something simpler last night-Mozzarella. Following Gavin's directions, the same thing happened. whey on top. What a disaster, curds never melted after heat was applied. I ended up throwing away a bowl of whey the size of a grain of rice to maybe a grape, all hard as a rock and inedible. Never stayed together when I squeezed it, the pellets just fell back apart.

UPDATE: I may have figured it out...Amazon description says "1 Tablet will coagulate 4 gallons of milk" but the back of the foil pack the tabs came in says "1 tablet treats 50 liters of milk!!! Somebody screwed up somewhere. The instructions on the pack are in Spanish, and when I translated it it isn't even Veg. rennet it is "Rennet de vaquita"--calf-rennet. Luckily I know enough Spanish to read it, the poor folks who buy it and go by the Amazon instructions are screwed.

Awesome!  Yeah, 1 tablet for 50 liters is the amount for one of the more common brands you can buy.  It's kind of inconvenient because if you want to do a smaller amount, you need to scale it.  The most common way of doing it is to break up 1/4 of a tablet in 100 ml of non-clorinated water and then use a percentage of that in your cheese.  So, for example 1/4 of a tablet is enough for about 12 liters, so if you want to do 4 liters, you would used 33 ml of your rennet water.  Unfortunately, you can't store that rennet water for any reasonable period, so you'll have to discard it.  It makes tablet rennet more expensive, but it's easier to store because you can store it in the freezer.

Good luck on your next cheese!  Just a quick pointer: mozzarella is not a simple cheese.  Especially the "quick" mozzarella where you add acid it very prone to failure, so I don't recommend doing it until you have considerable experience and understand all of the processes involved.

A couple of other items:

I also had a devil of a time getting my cheeses to work properly. I was going through the same process as you (although I am using liquid Rennet, so did not run into your problem, thankfully!). However, I noticed you used store-bought homogenized milk. The homogenization process will make it very difficult to make a good cheese. Look around for a supplier who does not homogenize their milk and you will be more successful.

As far as Mozzarella - the best recipe I've found is on the www.seriouseats.com (http://www.seriouseats.com) website. I've been very successful with it.

Good luck.

Thanks for the tip Macgruff. I've seen so many people who say as long as the store milk isn't "ultra-pasteurized" that it is ok. I have a farm-store right down the road but wanted to try the store milk ($4/gal) before the raw milk ($8.80/gal). 

As for the rennet...I Googled "+QSO rennet" and got a zillion hits, everybody online sells it, and EVERYONE says that it is vegetable rennet 1tab/4gal milk. That is absolutely NOT what the Spanish label on the package says, so is everyone wrong and the package correct? I can't believe some Spanish-speaking vegan didn't read the "Calf rennet" on the label and freak out and call the company. I see about as many bad reviews from this product as good reviews, so who knows. I may return it to Amazon and try liquid animal rennet.

Raw is not the same. My milk source is pasteurized, so it's not raw.

Sometimes they refer to it as "cream-line" because after a day the cream tends to separate a bit and move to the top of the container. It's not a problem for me, as a simple shake or stir recombines everything.

So is there a compromise? $4 store milk vs $8 raw? I don't mind spending the extra money if I get quality cheese, but being new, $24 of milk ruined by a bad mistake or bad ingredients would probably stop me from continuing this new hobby...

Raw milk cheese has more risk. It can make you sick or worse if the raw milk somehow got contaminated or something went wrong during the make. I buy raw milk from multiple farmers and I use raw milk from only one farmer and either thermize or pasteurize milk from other farmers. The raw milk from one farmer doesn't puff like bread dough when turned into cheese and I can make my own starter culture from the raw milk called clabber. I already made multiple cheeses using that raw milk and they were excellent. Raw milk does make a significant difference in cheesemaking imho and raw milk cheese that use natural starter like clabber is even better. Parmigiano Reggiano which is one of the best cheeses ever made use only grass fed raw milk and natural starter called natural whey starter. The raw milk that I pasteurize or thermize are still good. It sets just like raw milk and the curds are firm even without calcium chloride. What I don't like is sometimes they have that pronounced cooked milk flavor.

The compromise the pasteurized but non-homogenized milk. In my area (Pittsburgh, PA), I am being charge $5.50 per gallon. I do not use raw milk, although I know where I can buy it, because I do not know that I want to take the chance. I know it is mostly safe, but I am not willing to take the small chance of something going wrong. Because of that stance, I do not know how much they charge for raw milk around here.

I look at it like wine tasting. I know "wine snobs" who buy $100/bottle wines because of the "nuanced flavor."  I personally have tried expensive and I've tried bargain wines. The slight or no difference to my untrained palette isn't worth the added price.
I've eaten Parmigiano Reggiano at an average of $15-20/lb and while it has a better flavor than generic "sawdust parm" from the store, a good quality American Parm. is fine for my pizzas, spaghetti, etc. It's a matter of balance. I'd love to try making Pecorino Romano but at $40/gallon for sheep milk, I'll pass on that one. Perhaps if I stick with the hobby and feel confident in my abilities, I'll attempt a wheel of Sheep's cheese.

UPDATE: I couldn't wait the full 3 weeks for my Asiago to age, I was afraid it was going to be a fail. I cut it Sunday after 2 weeks of aging and it was good. No mechanical holes inside, no mold anywhere (I was religious about brine-brushing it every day. It was very dense and when shredded had a flavor part way between provolone and Asagio. I had put ground pepper in it and smoked the wheel for an hour in my cold smoker, so the flavor was enhanced by that. I gave a wedge to family members who all said it was worth shredding for salads, pasta, etc. The texture in eating a slice was a bit inconsistent, owing I believe to the strange reaction my milk had to the rennet. I am going to try again today for a different cheese, I bought 3 gallons of milk down in Maryland this weekend (Pennsylvania has a state min. price of $4.50/gal while Maryland has no minimum.) I got it for $2.49/gallon so what a difference in price!

Here are pics of my first cheese Asagio with black pepper and smoked (I shredded some and gave a lot away)

(https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/1uoyerkzpamjfnsx25zvz/IMG-3344.JPG?rlkey=cfx1l22d30bq2qqw3xw4o31lv&raw=1)
(https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/0lg1gaeqfo28xi7n13pxp/IMG-3345.JPG?rlkey=cgx4c1d4lrom25q301vy1aro6&raw=1)

My advice: stick with it!

Experiment with different milks on small 2 gallon makes until you find a milk that works for you.
For my most of my cheese makes - I use either Snowville or indian Creek creamery milk (low temp past and non-homogenized).  At 8$ a gallon, it isn't cheap, but I'm willing to spend that to avoid the frustration of crappy milk. 
I've tried Kroger milk and learned that I can't work with that.  It just doesn't coagulate that well and form a good curd mass.  Since I bought into a goat herd share, I've been supplementing the cream line milk with raw goat milk from my herd share (i'll pastuerize the goat milk if i'm doing chèvre or other soft cheeses - for longer aged cheeses i just use raw. The goat milk isn't cheap either (12$ a gallon) but i'm supporting my local farmer and the milk is really good. 
For my parmesan like makes, I use Costco milk (3$ a gallon) because I'm making an 8 gallon batch at a time and can't bring myself to drop 64$.
I'm sure there are cream line milks available to you in Gettysburg - start small and test them out.
We've all had horrible tales of cheese not going the way we want, while disappointing, it's just cheese and we learn and move on.

nice looking cheese pics!

Trent

Quote from: Possum-Pie on September 26, 2023, 03:43:39 PM
I look at it like wine tasting. I know "wine snobs" who buy $100/bottle wines because of the "nuanced flavor."  I personally have tried expensive and I've tried bargain wines. The slight or no difference to my untrained palette isn't worth the added price.
I've eaten Parmigiano Reggiano at an average of $15-20/lb and while it has a better flavor than generic "sawdust parm" from the store, a good quality American Parm. is fine for my pizzas, spaghetti, etc. It's a matter of balance. I'd love to try making Pecorino Romano but at $40/gallon for sheep milk, I'll pass on that one. Perhaps if I stick with the hobby and feel confident in my abilities, I'll attempt a wheel of Sheep's cheese.

I find wine boring. I've tried 2-4 usd wine and I find them comparable to 15-20 usd wine. I really like single malt whiskies though. They are far more exciting because of how they are made and has flavors that wine can never match. You can even buy single malts aged in red wine cask or sherry cask which are awesome. I prefer them to be in the 40-100 usd range. Although I have several whiskies costing 250-300 usd, they are not really any better and the price just got jacked up so high because they are rare. I am willing to pay that kind of money because I notice the "nuanced flavor" and I get a lot of satisfaction drinking them. Overpriced no age statement whisky like Macallan are a waste of money though. A well aged Parmigiano Reggiano shines when eaten on its own. There is nothing wrong with using good quality imitation Parmesan on pizza and spaghetti. Parmigiano Reggiano and Grana Padano are pretty cheap here so I use them when cooking and topping pasta and pizza while a Californian Parmesan here that is only slightly cheaper, is garbage.

I love cheese, but I rarely cut a piece and eat it plain, I use different cheeses in cooking so the fine nuances of expensive cheese is lost in the other ingredients. I got into the hobby mainly to make some parm/romano for Italian dishes, and to try my hand at mozzarella. Mozzarella almost isn't worth the effort for me--price of all the ingredients is about the same as a one-pound log in the store. I'll compare tastes when I finally get one to turn out right. 

Well, I made a Romano yesterday. The curd set exactly as it should, clean break with a knife, and It is currently in the press. I was going to brine it this morning, but it felt too "spongey" to be a hard cheese. I flipped it and put it back in the press on 50 lbs and some clear whey did drip out so I'm going to let it press for a few hours more. I've seen cheesemakers brine, air dry, then immediately vacuum pack it, and others who never vacuum pack it but oil it after some time.  Does anyone know if there is a downside to immediate vacuum packing? 

no natural rind if you vac pack - but if that doesn't bother you, then just make sure you brine appropriately and air dry.  Keep checking on the cheese to make sure no moisture leeches out of the cheese (i've had some vac bagged cheeses that leech moisture and it turns to an acidic gross mess - but that's usually due to an incorrect make). 
I tend to vac pack my small cheeses.  I made romano about 18 months ago and vac bagged it - didn't have my humidity set up as I do now to develop a natural rind.  It was also a smaller 2 lb cheese - so I wanted less rind.  With my parmesan makes (8 gallon) i prefer a natural rind.  It's also harder for me to vac bag a big cheese like that too...

Trent

Quote from: Possum-Pie on September 27, 2023, 01:11:38 PM
I love cheese, but I rarely cut a piece and eat it plain, I use different cheeses in cooking so the fine nuances of expensive cheese is lost in the other ingredients. I got into the hobby mainly to make some parm/romano for Italian dishes, and to try my hand at mozzarella. Mozzarella almost isn't worth the effort for me--price of all the ingredients is about the same as a one-pound log in the store. I'll compare tastes when I finally get one to turn out right. 

Well, I made a Romano yesterday. The curd set exactly as it should, clean break with a knife, and It is currently in the press. I was going to brine it this morning, but it felt too "spongey" to be a hard cheese. I flipped it and put it back in the press on 50 lbs and some clear whey did drip out so I'm going to let it press for a few hours more. I've seen cheesemakers brine, air dry, then immediately vacuum pack it, and others who never vacuum pack it but oil it after some time.  Does anyone know if there is a downside to immediate vacuum packing?

I got back into this hobby because of Mozzarella even though I can get store bought low moisture mozzarella really cheap. Plus I have access to cheap but high quality grass fed water buffalo milk which allows me to make authentic Mozzarella di bufala which is rare and really expensive here and has a chance of being inedible if you buy one because it has a very short shelf life. Nowadays I am into making Italian hard cheeses such as Parmesan, Caciotta and Asiago.

The cheese will weep whey inside the vacuum bag and might make the cheese bitter. You can do a hybrid approach with hard cheeses. You can age them in your cheese cave with a humidity of 70-75% until they form a rind that is hard then you vacuum pack. I age mine inside a Coleman cooler with frozen water bottles until the cheese forms a rind and lose 15-22% of its original weight before I vacuum pack it. It results in a cheese with a thin rind and proper moisture content. My 1 year old Asiago inspired cheese below was aged using the method I mentioned and it was unpressed. The long aged version of real Asiago is not actually pressed from the videos I have seen.
https://i.imgur.com/EYbLX6m.jpg

DrChile and Aris, thank you so much for your help. I have a follow up question: I took my Romano out of the 24hr brine this morning, and it just doesn't feel "firm" like a hard cheese should. I used full fat milk rather than 2% and even after 12 hours of 50 lb press, it feels less solid than my Asiago did when I first began air drying it. Should I try re-pressing it? Is this normal? I used a cheese mold that I really like-rounded bottom and top rather than sharp corners on the finished wheels, but the follower fits VERY tightly in the mold. There was no more whey dripping when I took it out, so maybe this is ok. It's just that the Parm/Romano wheels I have bought were very firm.  Milk weighed 17.2 lbs Cheese weighs 2.02 lbs so just under 12% of total milk weight.

Quote from: Aris on September 27, 2023, 11:35:29 PM

Quote from: Possum-Pie on September 27, 2023, 01:11:38 PM
I love cheese, but I rarely cut a piece and eat it plain, I use different cheeses in cooking so the fine nuances of expensive cheese is lost in the other ingredients. I got into the hobby mainly to make some parm/romano for Italian dishes, and to try my hand at mozzarella. Mozzarella almost isn't worth the effort for me--price of all the ingredients is about the same as a one-pound log in the store. I'll compare tastes when I finally get one to turn out right. 

Well, I made a Romano yesterday. The curd set exactly as it should, clean break with a knife, and It is currently in the press. I was going to brine it this morning, but it felt too "spongey" to be a hard cheese. I flipped it and put it back in the press on 50 lbs and some clear whey did drip out so I'm going to let it press for a few hours more. I've seen cheesemakers brine, air dry, then immediately vacuum pack it, and others who never vacuum pack it but oil it after some time.  Does anyone know if there is a downside to immediate vacuum packing?

I got back into this hobby because of Mozzarella even though I can get store bought low moisture mozzarella really cheap. Plus I have access to cheap but high quality grass fed water buffalo milk which allows me to make authentic Mozzarella di bufala which is rare and really expensive here and has a chance of being inedible if you buy one because it has a very short shelf life. Nowadays I am into making Italian hard cheeses such as Parmesan, Caciotta and Asiago.

The cheese will weep whey inside the vacuum bag and might make the cheese bitter. You can do a hybrid approach with hard cheeses. You can age them in your cheese cave with a humidity of 70-75% until they form a rind that is hard then you vacuum pack. I age mine inside a Coleman cooler with frozen water bottles until the cheese forms a rind and lose 15-22% of its original weight before I vacuum pack it. It results in a cheese with a thin rind and proper moisture content. My 1 year old Asiago inspired cheese below was aged using the method I mentioned and it was unpressed. The long aged version of real Asiago is not actually pressed from the videos I have seen.
https://i.imgur.com/EYbLX6m.jpg

LOVE your suggestion. I have a small "dorm fridge" that the lowest setting is about 50 degrees F. I'll put the cheese in there for a few weeks until I see/feel a rind, then vacuum pack it. As I've stated above, I'm a bit worried about the moisture content based on feel...I'd feel better letting it air dry more in a fridge before sealing it in plastic.

What was the temperature of the brine? From experience, room temperature (usual brine temp recommendation which imho is bad advice) cheese tends to be soft. I dry salt and store the cheese at 50-55 f to make sure pH doesn't drop. Even Peter Dixon (American master cheesemaker) recommends brining at 50-55 f for Asiago and 50 f for Gouda. For me, when it comes to hard cheese like Asiago, it is essential the curds are cooked properly (curds must be firm and not too dry) and the curds must be slightly smaller than corn kernel.  I think your cheese is fine. It will eventually harden once it loses enough moisture in your cheese cave. If molds do grow, brush it using a clean tooth brush or nail brush. My cooler has a humidity of 60-70% and molds can't grow at that humidity. Pressing with too much weight in the beginning can trap whey in the cheese. I personally don't press my Italian hard cheeses and they still come out good.

You should give the recipe below a try. Use the recommended dose of your thermophilic starter culture and rennet. In this recipe, he only use 2 lb. weight on a 1 lb. cheese.
https://static1.squarespace.com/static/552d4535e4b03d0c390b51a0/t/5563256ce4b0cc18bc6a52fb/1432561004972/dfc+asiago.pdf

Quote from: Aris on September 28, 2023, 05:58:09 PM
What was the temperature of the brine? From experience, room temperature (usual brine temp recommendation which imho is bad advice) cheese tends to be soft. I dry salt and store the cheese at 50-55 f to make sure pH doesn't drop. Even Peter Dixon (American master cheesemaker) recommends brining at 50-55 f for Asiago and 50 f for Gouda. For me, when it comes to hard cheese like Asiago, it is essential the curds are cooked properly (curds must be firm and not too dry) and the curds must be slightly smaller than corn kernel.  I think your cheese is fine. It will eventually harden once it loses enough moisture in your cheese cave. If molds do grow, brush it using a clean tooth brush or nail brush. My cooler has a humidity of 60-70% and molds can't grow at that humidity. Pressing with too much weight in the beginning can trap whey in the cheese. I personally don't press my Italian hard cheeses and they still come out good.

You should give the recipe below a try. Use the recommended dose of your thermophilic starter culture and rennet. In this recipe, he only use 2 lb. weight on a 1 lb. cheese.
https://static1.squarespace.com/static/552d4535e4b03d0c390b51a0/t/5563256ce4b0cc18bc6a52fb/1432561004972/dfc+asiago.pdf

Well, the brine was a bit above room temp. about 90 F. That is b/c I evaporated all the water out of my brine bucket and re-used the salt to make a new brine. As of 12 hours of air drying, the cheese is significantly firmer and I am not so worried. Actually, it is beginning to get that "dirty sock" parmesan/romano smell, and it is air drying on my counter. I'm much less worried. As I said, I'm going to compromise and air dry it in the fridge at about 50 deg F for a few weeks, THEN vacuum seal it. I've seen horror stories of people never vacuum sealing it, and horror stories about people vacuum sealing it too soon, so I'm going to compromise.

Quote from: Possum-Pie on September 28, 2023, 08:56:09 PM

Quote from: Aris on September 28, 2023, 05:58:09 PM
What was the temperature of the brine? From experience, room temperature (usual brine temp recommendation which imho is bad advice) cheese tends to be soft. I dry salt and store the cheese at 50-55 f to make sure pH doesn't drop. Even Peter Dixon (American master cheesemaker) recommends brining at 50-55 f for Asiago and 50 f for Gouda. For me, when it comes to hard cheese like Asiago, it is essential the curds are cooked properly (curds must be firm and not too dry) and the curds must be slightly smaller than corn kernel.  I think your cheese is fine. It will eventually harden once it loses enough moisture in your cheese cave. If molds do grow, brush it using a clean tooth brush or nail brush. My cooler has a humidity of 60-70% and molds can't grow at that humidity. Pressing with too much weight in the beginning can trap whey in the cheese. I personally don't press my Italian hard cheeses and they still come out good.

You should give the recipe below a try. Use the recommended dose of your thermophilic starter culture and rennet. In this recipe, he only use 2 lb. weight on a 1 lb. cheese.
https://static1.squarespace.com/static/552d4535e4b03d0c390b51a0/t/5563256ce4b0cc18bc6a52fb/1432561004972/dfc+asiago.pdf

Well, the brine was a bit above room temp. about 80 F. That is b/c I evaporated all the water out of my brine bucket and re-used the salt to make a new brine. As of 12 hours of air drying, the cheese is significantly firmer and I am not so worried. Actually, it is beginning to get that "dirty sock" parmesan/romano smell, and it is air drying on my counter. I'm much less worried. As I said, I'm going to compromise and air dry it in the fridge at about 50 deg F for a few weeks, THEN vacuum seal it. I've seen horror stories of people never vacuum sealing it, and horror stories about people vacuum sealing it too soon, so I'm going to compromise.

Fridge has really low humidity and there is a chance the cheese might crack so keep a watchful eye.

Quote from: Aris on September 28, 2023, 10:24:07 PM
Fridge has really low humidity and there is a chance the cheese might crack so keep a watchful eye.

With my Asiago, I put a shallow pan with a little water on the rack, put the cheese on a wire trivit with feet above the water but not touching. I'm sure it wasn't 85% humidity, but it was all I could think of to raise the humidity. I've seen pics of some folk's parm wheels after a year and they look hard as cement and full of cracks. That's why I want to put it in vacuum seal before it gets too much of a rind

Quote from: Possum-Pie on September 29, 2023, 11:11:05 AM

Quote from: Aris on September 28, 2023, 10:24:07 PM
Fridge has really low humidity and there is a chance the cheese might crack so keep a watchful eye.

With my Asiago, I put a shallow pan with a little water on the rack, put the cheese on a wire trivit with feet above the water but not touching. I'm sure it wasn't 85% humidity, but it was all I could think of to raise the humidity. I've seen pics of some folk's parm wheels after a year and they look hard as cement and full of cracks. That's why I want to put it in vacuum seal before it gets too much of a rind

Yeah, that is a good way to increase humidity. Hopefully it doesn't raise the humidity too much. Yeah, I've seen those cheeses that is why I vacuum seal my hard cheeses. I want a rind that is as thin as possible so there is more cheese. I bet their rock hard cheese doesn't melt, has a very dry and tough texture. Many home cheesemakers also use skim milk which makes it worse. Parmigiano Reggiano actually isn't that dry (29-31% moisture content), it is grainy but still creamy and melts in your mouth and has good fat content (43.3% fat in dry matter). They use partially skimmed milk (2.4-2.5% butterfat).

agree with what's been said so far - Possum - your cheese will be fine.  I tend to take the same approach when vac bagging mine.  about 2-3 weeks of aging then vac bag. 

I brine my stuff in my cave - usually around 51-52 F but then store my brine in a regular fridge.  I try to avoid brining at room temp if i can help it (just what this forum and books have said to do)

Trent

UPDATE: After 5 days in the cheese fridge at about 50 deg. F. The cheese is firm, dry, and smells more like Romano. I turn it daily and there is no sign of mold. I'm going to dry it for a few weeks, then vacuum seal it. Thanks again for the suggestions and encouragement. 6 months will be April 1 and 12 months will be Sept. 30 next year. I don't think I can wait that long, I may open it and cut a wedge in April, and if it needs more aging, I'll re vacuum seal it.

Quote from: Possum-Pie on October 04, 2023, 09:45:21 PM
UPDATE: After 5 days in the cheese fridge at about 50 deg. F. The cheese is firm, dry, and smells more like Romano. I turn it daily and there is no sign of mold. I'm going to dry it for a few weeks, then vacuum seal it. Thanks again for the suggestions and encouragement. 6 months will be April 1 and 12 months will be Sept. 30 next year. I don't think I can wait that long, I may open it and cut a wedge in April, and if it needs more aging, I'll re vacuum seal it.

That is good to hear. Sounds like humidity is just right because it has no mold. I assume no cracks too. Please share a photo.

(https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/4fne570cjukg6eja0r4ji/IMG-3349.JPG?rlkey=3t1a7536xcskyez5jyvbmskas&raw=1)

Included a white napkin to show actual color of cheese.

It looks good.

Thanks. Seems like there isn't much activity on this forum lately. Lots of threads had their last postings a year or two ago. I would think that more "homesteaders" and such would be active. I'm grateful that there were a few members who could help me. I've gotten a few books on the subject but it's nice to hear from experienced cheesemakers about specific questions.

Yeah. You should checkout cheesemaking subreddit which is more active. If you have facebook, there are cheesemaking groups there. I totally lost interest there because some people there can be vile and authoritarian.
https://www.reddit.com/r/cheesemaking/ (https://www.reddit.com/r/cheesemaking/)

It used to be much more active here (mainly even before I showed up).  I hate to say it, but I think a big part of the problem is actually the homesteaders.  The original group here had a very high percentage of professional cheese makers.  The level of pre-existing knowledge was high and the resulting discourse level was high.  Even when you got newbies in the mix, the questions and answers were quite good.

However, there are few people interesting in the intricacies of cheese making.  One of the most knowledgeable posters, Linuxboy said that he'd never write a book because nobody would want to know the level of detail that he'd want to put into a book.   *The* book to get, is "Fundamentals of Cheese Science" by Fox, et al... which Amazon has at $250.  I seem to remember it being even more expensive back in the day.

Not to be unkind, but the average homesteader doesn't read books like that (disclosure: I can't bring myself to pay that much for a cheese making book... hypocracy writ large ;-) ).  Even Gianaclis Caldwell's book (arguably the best approachable book you can buy) *apologizes* multiple times for bringing science into the discussion.  Cheese making is *complex* and there is a lot of misunderstanding and stuff that is wrong out there that people cling to.  If I had a dollar for every time I've personally said stuff that is plain wrong and later realised it's because I'm unwittingly parroting "common knowledge", I'd be rich :-)

I probably shouldn't be so unkind, but a real problem in our community is that many people refuse to believe that making cheese could be deep, complicated and nuanced.  Quite a lot of those people happen to come from the homesteading community in my experience.  And I get it.  Homesteaders become homesteaders because they are searching for a simpler life where natural processes rule.  It makes sense!  And the thing is that it's actually pretty hard *not* to make cheese from milk if you aren't fussed about what kind of cheese you are making.  And it will even taste good 90% of the time too!  And the people intent on poisoning themselves are relatively rare and usually go away after they fail to make something that tastes good enough times.

But... If your goal is to get a *really* deep understanding of cheese making, all of the superficial view points and refusal to concentrate on details is taxing.  Eventually most serious enthusiasts are not up for the discussion any more and the wander away.  The people who are left have nothing interesting to say and so... it just kind of gets quiet.

Mike,
I was here when it was really active back in 2009. I learned a lot from the experienced members especially pros like Linuxboy and Francois. I think you are on to something about homesteaders. I noticed that some of them aren't into details and are lax about safety. I think they also follow David Asher. I totally agree that cheesemaking is deep, complicated and nuanced. Those are the reasons I love cheesemaking and I still haven't lost interest after over a decade. You can never stop learning. It is a shame people don't appreciate the complexity and diversity of cheesemaking and tends to stick to only one method which is asinine. It gets even more interesting once you delve into making your own starter culture using raw milk. The possibilities are endless because natural starters are complex and variable. I've made a natural starter using the method from the Slow Food video on youtube which you are critical about and I don't blame you. At first generation, it was decent but it gets even better if you build it up multiple times by feeding it. Once you made cheese from it, you can also use the whey as starter culture which is basically natural whey starter. I used the natural whey starter in a Caciotta and it was one of the best cheese I've ever made. It was really buttery (Flora Danica can never come close) and has a subtle Pineapple note. Despite the high temperature in making the starter culture, mesophilic bacteria gets replenished by the use of raw milk and Caciotta is not heated above 100 f. Anyway, I hope you are doing good and I hope you start writing more in your blog.

I've also been on here for a while and things seem to ebb and flow.

Another factor is that we seem to get a bunch of newbies on board (me included!) who all run into the same initial problems and therefore all ask the same initial questions. Now that I've been on for a while I see the cycle happening for the third, fourth, or more time. For those who are very deep into their cheese knowledge (like you Mike) it can get frustrating having to answer the same question so many times. I remember asking my newbie questions and being somewhat put off when one of the "old timers" told me - rather curtly! - "Use the Search function!".

:)

So, the old timers stop answering and focus on their things, and most of the newcomers eventually fade away.

This seems to happen in every hobby. At least I've noticed it in almost all the hobbies I've gotten involved in over the years.

I shouldn't be so grumpy, especially since people coming here are usually so excited about cheese making.  Better to invite them in the door rather than to say, "You aren't geeky enough!".  How will they *become* geeky enough?  >:D  In all honestly, it's great to seem people posting here and I'm very happy when there are threads like this to liven the place up.  I definitely need to start making some cheese too.  My excuse that it's too hot is rapidly running away from me!

Cheese looks great Possum.

Agree with the comments re this forum.  There is such a wealth of information here in past posts - so when I fell off the wagon (meaning not making cheese or posting on this forum) and then got back into it, I was so happy to see that all the information is still here.  I try to check in every other day or so but sometimes it's hard to come back just to browse unless you have a specific question.  I've started to make a point just to come back here to see in an effort to give back - cause this forum has slowed but hopefully it will keep going.  I could nerd out on the science of cheese for hours at at time but then my real job may suffer...

Agree with the reddit - just joined reddit for that purpose.  Haven't joined the facebook groups yet...

WOW, thank you for all of the insight. I hold a doctorate degree. My very soul screams "evidence-based practice" meaning I really don't care that someone's grandpa planted corn only by the full moon, but WHY, and what evidence is there for that? On one hand, They have been making wine, beer, and cheese for thousands of years. No instruments to calculate pH, and no precision, BUT, many times people got sick or the product failed. I try to balance precise scientific methods of making wine or cheese with some of the more "laid-back" approaches of people whose families have always done it a particular way. I've made wine by "winging it" and not getting precise measurements, but I've also had some failures. I aim to learn the science behind cheesemaking, and then decide which corners I choose to cut...

Why cut corners?  Understanding the science basically just gives you a toolkit for reasoning using a model.  Science isn't reality.  Science is a practice of using and validating models that help you predict outcomes.

I don't use a pH meter.  A pH meter is very helpful, but it's also a gigantic pain to clean and keep calibrated (I've owned 3 in my life and given them away, because I'm too lazy :-) ).  However, the science of cheese making helps you deduce where you are with the pH.  Deciding not to use a pH meter is not about "winging it".  It's about making a choice to use *other markers* to understand acidity. Deciding not to use a pH meter is not a short cut.  It's just a choice -- and it's a choice that requires you to pay *more* attention to what you are doing, not less.

People hundreds of years ago did not understand acidity. There used to be an archive here of old cheese making books (100-200 years old).  Sadly, with the loss of the attached files, I think they are gone now.  However, it's not as much of a loss as you might imagine.  Those books were *terrible*.  The people writing them had no idea what they were doing.  They made bad cheese.  You may think, "But you never tasted it.  How do you know it's bad?"  You know because you understand the science and you know that the stuff in the books was completely bonkers :-)  To be fair, cheese making at the time was women's work.  Writing books about cheese making was men's work.  I got the impression the men writing the books had more ego than knowledge ;-)

I'm not saying that cheese 200 years ago was all terrible.  I'm absolutely sure it wasn't.  However, good complex cheese was rare, and the secrets were protected and handed down.  That's why there were famous producers of cheese.  They *also* did not know what they were doing, but through trial and error and luck, they made good cheese.  This isn't to say they cut corners!  I'm sure they were incredibly meticulous!  Probably they were meticulous to the point of absurdity (only turn the cheese quarter turn on a Tuesday, kind of craziness).  Science is about making *simple* models that can be reasoned with.  People often make *complex* models when they aren't trained in the scientific process.

Speaking of the history of cheese, we often think that very, very old cheese styles were the same then as they are now.  However, take Camembert cheese.  The white rind on Camembert wasn't standardised until *1970*!  Before that, it was common to have a mixed rind -- often grey, brown, speckled, etc.  Our imagination of cheese in times gone by are just that -- imagination.  One of my favourite cheeses is Caerphilly.  However, it's pretty clear that there isn't a person alive who knows what Caerphilly is supposed to taste like.  Caerphilly production was halted in WWII.  After that, it's really unclear if anyone *ever* made an authentic Caerphilly.  The cheese died out completely in the early 2000's, but was revived by a Cheddar cheese maker in Sommerset.  The current artisan form of Caerphilly (a Welsh cheese!) is based on the imagination of an English cheese maker.  (I mean, modern Caerphilly is *amazing*... who knows what Caerphilly 100 years ago was like).

This is all to say, don't cut corners :-)  There is no need.  Just build a good model and use it to reason about what you should do to produce the cheese you want.  If the cheese you want only requires a simple process, then go for it.  If it requires a complex process... then that's what you need.  Use the tools that you want to use and that allow you to produce the cheese you want.  Generally, more tools, used intelligently make it easier.  With less tools, you need more understanding, experience and practice.

Update: 16 days out of brine, flipped every day. the rind is starting to form, small blue/green mold spots appear on the edge or surface. I brushed them off with a brine brush, and they don't look like a problem, but I want to vacuum pack within a week or so and want the surface as clean as possible. Today I made a solution of white vinegar and saltwater and brushed the whole cheese paying attention to the small mold spots. I'm air-drying it now.
I've seen "very" moldy cheese surfaces that were fine to eat, and I myself have been known to cut off large blue/green mold from a store-bought cheddar block and eat the rest. I just don't want to seal this and have the mold propagate to change the acidity/flavor...am I doing the correct thing?

Yes. Although there are times mold will still grow on a vacuum packed cheese. I have a vacuum packed hard cheese now that has a few specks of blue mold. I am not worried about the mold because the cheese has a hard rind which the mold can never penetrate. Just make your cheese has a hard rind before you vacuum pack.

Quote from: Aris on October 14, 2023, 01:36:42 PM
Yes. Although there are times mold will still grow on a vacuum packed cheese. I have a vacuum packed hard cheese now that has a few specks of blue mold. I am not worried about the mold because the cheese has a hard rind which the mold can never penetrate. Just make your cheese has a hard rind before you vacuum pack.

It is dry, with no moisture upon pressing my finger on it, and I scrubbed with vinegar/brine and dried it first. I'm going ot vacuum seal it and keep an eye out for moisture in the bag.

I assume it has a rind now. If your vacuum sealer has a soft setting, you can use that to prevent or minimize moisture from the cheese getting sucked out. My cheese below was very dry and had a yellowish hard rind when I vacuum packed it.
(https://i.imgur.com/nF4p0ZS.jpg)

QuoteA pH meter is very helpful, but it's also a gigantic pain to clean and keep calibrated

Aint that the truth.  I use one because I choose to - but it can be a pain in the butt. 

I'm the medical field and use data and science every day I got to work.  I think that's why i like cheesemaking - it gives me some science and a little bit of control in a hobby that ultimately tastes good (most of the time).  On the other hand, the amount of variables for the home cheesemaker to attempt to control is fairly high and that can lead to some unexpected results - i enjoy that as well!

Trent

Quote from: DrChile on October 15, 2023, 08:40:48 PM

QuoteA pH meter is very helpful, but it's also a gigantic pain to clean and keep calibrated

Aint that the truth.  I use one because I choose to - but it can be a pain in the butt. 

I'm the medical field and use data and science every day I got to work.  I think that's why i like cheesemaking - it gives me some science and a little bit of control in a hobby that ultimately tastes good (most of the time).  On the other hand, the amount of variables for the home cheesemaker to attempt to control is fairly high and that can lead to some unexpected results - i enjoy that as well!

Trent

EXACTLY!  I have a doctorate in nursing practice and took many courses in statistics, tests/measures, etc. I am obsessed with the evidence behind why we do what we do in life, but I also realize that there is an "art" in most things where exact measures just don't come into it.  I bought a pH meter b/c the scientist in me insisted, then realized that while it is accurate, it is not "precise" This means that distilled water which should always be 7.00 pH comes up 6.95, 6.78, 7.20...etc. that variability drove me nuts. Sure, the "average" was 7.0, but I packed the meter away b/c it wasn't precise. My digital scale will give me 5.67 grams EVERY time I measure a U.S. quarter. The precision is perfect. I'm focusing less on pH and more on other things. My first cheese turned out great, the Romano seems to be doing well. Sure, my cheese fridge is not exactly 50 f, but 49 degrees f seems to work as well.

pH plays a big role in cheesemaking and it greatly influence texture, taste and flavor even appearance. The good thing is, you don't need a pH meter or pH strip to reliably track acidity/pH. That is where the "art" comes into play. I rely on my experience and senses to track acidity/pH. Jim Wallace of cheesemaking.com actually has a cheese pH guide where he relies on taste to determine pH. I actually bought a food pH meter out of curiosity and for confirmation. I no longer use it because I already know how to make cheese without a pH meter and calibrating it is such a hassle.
(https://i.imgur.com/zEjjxGh.jpg)

Switching topics for a moment, I made pepper jack cheese yesterday. My first try at a mesophilic culture, and my first cheese with anything added in to the curds. I was afraid of making it "too spicy" so I soaked 2 dried jalapeno peppers in boiling water and got about 30mls of intense hot juice. I then cut up 3 banana peppers (without pith or seeds) so that they would be mild. After draining the whey, I combined the spicy juice and the chopped peppers into the curds and began pressing. The first thing that I noticed was that eating a bit that crumbled off when I turned it, it was bland. No hotness at all. Also, the cheese is much larger than I anticipated since I used whole milk, so the pepper chunks are sparse.

Here is the question: It has been pressing at 45 lbs overnight, and is fairly solid. What would happen if I broke it up, put more peppers in, and then re-pressed it? I worry that it would never come back together as a whole cheese. There must be a chemical reaction that happens to turn a bunch of curds into a solid block, how quickly does that occur?

UPDATE: I decided that breaking/reheating/repressing doesn't seem like a good idea. I am going to compromise and reheat some jalapeno peppers with seeds (to give hotness) and after I cool it, strain the liquid slowly over the partially pressed wheel. Hopefully, some of the flavor will seep into the wheel. After an hour or so, I will continue pressing.

Jalapeno has low scoville unit and the hot juice likely didn't get absorbed by the curds and got washed away with the whey. I prefer to use dried habanero or dried siling labuyo (filipino chili) because they are really spicy. Typical Pepper Jack recipes from what I've noticed is prone to over acidification which results in a sour and very crumbly cheese. Breaking/Reheating/Repressing can make it even worse. I prefer my Pepper Jack to have a pH of 5.3 so it will be elastic and creamy. I don't press mine but it still consolidate just fine. If the curds have a high pH (over 6), they will consolidate just fine and form into a solid block without any weight. Frequent flipping of the cheese also helps a lot. I used that to my advantage to make semi hard/hard cheeses without any pressing. It typically takes 2-3 hours for my unpressed semi hard/hard cheese to consolidate properly. It hardens after salting and being stored at 45-50 f. Cheddar curds typically has a pH of 5.4-5.5 so it doesn't knit that well and needs to be pressed. Then again I can still make an unpressed cheddar.
(https://i.imgur.com/p6KLYNE.jpg)

agree with Aris here - i tend to use dried chiles in my cheeses.
Fresh chiles can carry the risk of contamination (albeit low if you boil them) and I like the added punch of a dehydrated chile.
I'm growing ghost pepper and carolina reapers (and some habs) and have dried most of them and plan to add them to a jack cheese in the next few weeks so it'll be ready by the holidays... 
Some of my dried peppers are red and i just recently dried some green ghosts/reapers - think I might call the cheese "Ho Ho Holy s*** that's hot jack cheese"


Thanks also to Aris about the recs regarding pressing (in other posts as well)... so many misconceptions about pressing and its a good reminder that it really depends on the cheese you're making

;D

Trent

PossumPie raised an interesting question though, that I did not see addressed: How much chile do you add per pound (or Kg) of cheese?

I've been contemplating making a hot cheese, since I have a couple of Jalapeno plants that have produced some pretty spicy peppers (stress them a bit as they ripen to a red color). I've been making my own Sriracha from them, but was wanting to use them in a cheese...

Quote from: MacGruff on October 20, 2023, 11:31:37 AM
PossumPie raised an interesting question though, that I did not see addressed: How much chile do you add per pound (or Kg) of cheese?

I've been contemplating making a hot cheese, since I have a couple of Jalapeno plants that have produced some pretty spicy peppers (stress them a bit as they ripen to a red color). I've been making my own Sriracha from them, but was wanting to use them in a cheese...

I watched a Gavin Webber video where he made pepper jack. He merrily put 2 TBS of dried peppers in, pepper-infused oil on the outside, and chipotle rub. Months later when he tasted it, his eyes were watering and he had to drink milk just to calm his mouth. I've watched other YouTubers spooning in 9 tsp of dried chili peppers and thought that was too much.  It all depends on how hot you want it I guess, but The cheese I'm making is for my 80-year-old mother who loves store-bought pepper jack. There is almost no kick to that, but she enjoys the pepper flavor a little spiciness.  I really struggled with how much to put in. My dried jalapenos are VERY hot if the seeds are included, so I went very conservative.  When we taste it around Christmas, I'll find out how much more to add next time.

Boiling the chilis for several minutes is a vital step to sanitize them because they can cause contamination if you don't boil them. Boling them also reduce their spiciness significantly in my experience so I chose a chili that is really spicy like dried habanero. There will still be some trial and error to get the right hotness for your pepper jack.

UPDATE:
So After 6 weeks, I had to test the Pepper Jack to see how it was.  Incredible flavor, but NOT pepper jack.  I'd call it "pepper sharp cheddar" I'm not sure what I did wrong, but the cheese is fantastic, smoked flavor, just enough heat, but 1. VERY sharp (not necessarily a bad thing- just not Jack) and sort of crumbly like a very compressed fetta. I put the correct pressure on my press, but it is hole-filled inside and when cut, breaks along curd lines instead of straight. As I said, I think it has a great flavor, just nothing like pepper Jack flavor/texture...I now own a pH meter and can accurately measure acidity, but too late for this cheese. Seems the major concern is texture...Any suggestions?

Sounds like you make have salted it *just* a bit late.  I'm trying to remember how Jack is made, though...  It shouldn't require very much pressure because it used to be made by putting it in cheese cloth and then twisting it to "press" it.  There would be a kind of "belly button" hole where the knot of the cloth was (you basically make a Stilton knot, cinch it up and then finally twist it to get enough pressure).  So the pH should relatively high when you do that.  I *think* that means that you don't cheddar it very much.  Also (and I need to review how Jack is made, like I said...) I seem to remember that like Colby, you do a curd wash but unlike Colby I seem to remember it's a "same temperature wash".  So that should remove some lactose and slow down the culture a bit.

So, anyway, I think probably technique is likely to blame.  You may have been using more of a cheddar technique than a Jack.  I seem to remember that the vast majority of Jack recipes on the internet are not actually Jack.  However, it's not a specialty of mine and I don't actually remember :-)

Possum-pie,
What recipe did you use and did you salt the curd? You need to stop pressing when the cheese has a pH of 5.3-5.4 and put it in the fridge or your cheese cave to arrest pH drop. Air dry it in your cheese cave because your room temperature might be too warm which might make the cheese over acidify.

Mike,
In NEC's Pepper Jack recipe, the curds are salted directly like cheddar. The cheese continues to acidify in the press even when salted and has the potential to over acidify when left at room temperature for too long. There are a few people in this forum that had issues with salted curd cheese like Pepper Jack. Even in Learn to the make cheese that cheese is problematic. My Pepper Jack inspired cheese was unpressed, dry salted at 5.3-5.4 and stored in the fridge to halt pH drop. It had a pliable and creamy texture.

I've got a Pepper Jack that is aging right now - it's about three weeks old and I will let it go for another week or so before tasting it.

Mikechar's memory is correct about the non-pressing and the Stilton knot. I am following the recipe / technique from Caldwell's book. I did a regular Monterey Jack cheese a couple of months ago which came out nicely, so this second make added a few Jalapenos that I grew to make a small (one pound) wheel of pepper jack.

Once we taste it, I will try to remember to take pictures and post it here.

For now, it appears to be developing very nicely.

Sorry it took so long to respond, I'm not getting notified when a reply to a thread I'm in is posted.

Ok, I'll post the recipe in a bit, I have to look up what I did. I used mesophilic cultures, I used dried peppers from my garden and reconstituted them in boiling water to kill pathogens,  I did NOT press with a cheesecloth (ie provolone) but with my press. I have a digital pH meter but it is only useful with liquids, not curd. Up till now, I've never bothered with pH, geez they were making cheese long before anyone knew what acid/alkaline was- but I will try to be more scientific from now on. I saw a Gavin Webber Curd Nerd "fail" where he didn't get the pH right on a provolone ball and so it IS important.
As I said, it is a great flavor, more cheddar than Monterey jack, but this is the first cheese I've made that pressing and curing left it with a crumbly texture. Maybe the heat wasn't high enough to melt the curds together?  After pressing I rubbed it down with olive oil, put smoked paprika over the surface, and put it in my cold smoker for a few hours. I vacuum-packed it and as I mentioned, tasted a bit a few weeks early.  It is spot-on flavor-wise, but is definitely sharper than I anticipated.

Quote from: Possum-Pie on December 15, 2023, 09:58:38 PM
Up till now, I've never bothered with pH, geez they were making cheese long before anyone knew what acid/alkaline was- but I will try to be more scientific from now on.

I think almost everyone makes this mistake at the beginning  ;D  It's a real shame that the attachments are gone here because there used to be a really good archive of PDFs of old cheesemaking bookings here.  A lot of them were from the 1800s, where just as you say, they didn't understand anything about pH.  And the thing is... Wow.  They were *clueless*.  There is absolutely no way the people writing these books made good cheese.

However, that's not to say there wasn't good cheese at that time.  It has to be said that most of these books were written by men *who didn't make cheese*.  Women made cheese and men owned companies that employed the women who were making cheese.  Then these men wrote books about making cheese... and... it's pretty clear they didn't understand it.  I remember reading one where the author was a pains to point out that his absolutely ridiculous ideas were ignored by the women he was instructing  ::)

Controlling acidity really is the secret to making good cheese, IMHO.  However, it's important to realise that we're doing it for a *purpose*.  You can say:

• Start at a pH of 6.7.  Add culture.
• Wait for a 0.15 drop in the pH
• Drain at a pH of 6.1
• Press until a pH of 5.3.  Then salt.

And that will help your cheese a lot.  However, what are you actually doing?  What are those pH markers for?

• 6.7 is the typical pH of milk.  If it's much higher than that, then there is a good chance that the milk is from an unhealthy cow and you may have problems.  If it's much lower than that, then the milk is probably old and has soured.  If it's pasteurised milk, then it's doubly concerning because it should have been pasteurised before it could sour.  So you should avoid that milk.
• You need to let the culture "wake up" and get started, so you need to wait until you see a drop in the pH to know that the culture is working.  However, even if you add an active mother culture (which doesn't need to "wake up"), there is an amount of calcium phosphate dissolved in the milk.  This will "buffer" the drop in pH (just like adding vinegar to baking powder neutralises the acid).  So we need to wait until the buffer has been used up so that we get a consistent drop in acidity over time
• You can "measure" your pH by keeping track of how fast your curds flocculate. The lower the pH, the faster the curds will form (at the same temperature and rennet amount).  By doing something like a flocculation test, you can infer how fast the pH is dropping and adjust your timing accordingly
• You want to time the acidity targets to the curd texture targets so that you hit both at drain time.  You can't easily infer the pH by looking at the curds, but a pH of 6.0 or 6.1 is where you get ideal yield from ricotta.  *After the fact* you can make ricotta from your whey and if it works out well, then you know you hit a pH of between 6.0 and 6.1.  If your drain target was over 6.1, then you'll want to let the whey sit for a while.  If the pH is too low, then the ricotta will form *at temperatures below 85 C*.  You can also tell because the ricotta won't float to the surface.  This means that you can get a good idea of your drain pH.  The next time you make cheese you can adjust your timing.
• With practice, once the pH gets down to 5.5 or lower, you can *taste* the acidity (or at least the lack of sweetness) in the whey.  If you make cheese a lot, you can tell with pretty good precision and accuracy where you are.  There are other tests too.  As the curds get more acidic, they don't knit as easily.  You can literally see the difference in how the cheese is knitting.  The texture changes too.  It goes from soft and pliable to hard and crumbly as it gets more acidic.  You can also do a stretch test if you are aiming for a pH between 5.1 and 5.3.  Heated cheese curds will stretch easily in that range and won't otherwise.

This is just a small sample of the kinds of things that you can do to control your process without actually knowing the pH.  Traditionally, this is what good cheesemakers did.  They didn't know about acidity or alkalinity, but they obviously could tell that the whey got more acidic over time.  They could also see the differences in textures of the curd.  Over the centuries they learned good techniques and an procedures.  Cheesemakers apprenticed for years and years and years, learning from master cheese makers.  It was always an atelier system.

I think the biggest mistake people make is that they think "Historically they didn't know about this, so it must not be important".  In reality, they spend hundreds and thousands of years learning good techniques through trial and error and they each person spent decades learning from the people who came before them.  It's basically ridiculous to think that we can throw away all of that knowledge, start from scratch and expect good results.  Cheesemaking is deep.

The last thing I would like to say in this rant is that we have this weird idea that there is a kind of partition around the 1900's where we went from being ignorant trolls to being scientific masters.  All of the knowledge and ideas that we have were incremental.  Between 1800 and 1900, cheeses changed as people learned things.  There were lots of new cheeses and new ideas and new approaches based on things that we learned.  The same thing happened between 1700 and 1800, 1600 and 1700, or any 2 points in time you want to pick.

Throwing out the great new techniques we picked up between 1900 and 2000 is... um... arrogant is the best way I can put it.  We obviously knew things got acidic over time.  We could taste it.  We could see the result (even if we didn't quite understand that it was acid that was causing it).  We have better ways of quantifying that change, better ways of modelling it, better ways of imagining how to improve our process because we understand it.  Not making that knowledge available is cutting off your nose to spite your face.

For me, the key to understanding why it's important is that understanding our modern model allows you to avoid the decades of having to be an apprentice in order to make good cheese.  Unlike people from hundreds of years ago, you can learn to make good cheese *on your own* without some master having to teach the hundreds of weird measuring and evaluation techniques that they used.  I'm absolutely not against learning those old techniques (they are awesome and I spend a lot of time trying to learn them).  However, deciding that you are both going to ignore modern understanding of cheese making *and* you're going to go blindly in without knowing all the techniques built up over the centuries (and which take many years to master) means that you will just make bad cheese.  Just like those men who owned cheese factories and wrote books on their weird ideas of how cheese should be made.

Quote from: Possum-Pie on December 15, 2023, 09:58:38 PM
Sorry it took so long to respond, I'm not getting notified when a reply to a thread I'm in is posted.

Ok, I'll post the recipe in a bit, I have to look up what I did. I used mesophilic cultures, I used dried peppers from my garden and reconstituted them in boiling water to kill pathogens,  I did NOT press with a cheesecloth (ie provolone) but with my press. I have a digital pH meter but it is only useful with liquids, not curd. Up till now, I've never bothered with pH, geez they were making cheese long before anyone knew what acid/alkaline was- but I will try to be more scientific from now on. I saw a Gavin Webber Curd Nerd "fail" where he didn't get the pH right on a provolone ball and so it IS important.
As I said, it is a great flavor, more cheddar than Monterey jack, but this is the first cheese I've made that pressing and curing left it with a crumbly texture. Maybe the heat wasn't high enough to melt the curds together?  After pressing I rubbed it down with olive oil, put smoked paprika over the surface, and put it in my cold smoker for a few hours. I vacuum-packed it and as I mentioned, tasted a bit a few weeks early.  It is spot-on flavor-wise, but is definitely sharper than I anticipated.

Yeah they were making cheese long before anyone knew what acid/alkaline was. They also didn't use lab grown commercial cheese culture which from my observation are too aggressive in producing lactic acid and the lactic acid they produce is harsher than my natural wild starter cultures. I measure acidity by using my senses and intuition, it doesn't get any easier than that. I used to do a stretch test by reserving a small piece of curd or cutting a small piece from the cheese and heat it in almost boiling water. If it stretch 2-3x its size, pH is 5.3-5.4. I stopped doing it because smelling and tasting the whey/cheese/curd is good enough. Coincidentally, British cheesemakers in the early 1900's do a hot iron test when testing for acidity. This quote was taken from an old book "The hot iron test is the best for discovering the first sign of acidity. Take a piece of piping or a piece of iron a couple of feetlong, heat it hot, but not enough to scorch the curd. Take a handful of curd from your vat, squeezing out the whey, press it against the iron, and if it adheres to it and on removing strings out in fine threads like hairs, the acid is developed and all whey should be removed" Anyway, you don't really need a pH meter/strips. You just need to be aware and observant of what happens during a make. Practice tracking acidity by taste and smell, I posted a cheese pH guide from Jim Wallace of cheesemaking.com on top.

Mike,
Well said! That was a good read.

Thanks, everyone.  That was a good lesson in pH. I didn't mean to imply that a scientific approach to cheesemaking wasn't needed, As I mentioned earlier, I hold a doctorate degree and LOVE all things scientific.  I've tried my hand at winemaking, cheesemaking, breadmaking and distilling. One commonality is that you can look at 10 different recipes with 10 different techniques and they are all different. Some folks insist on precise measures, times, and techniques while others "wing it". I think some of the variables do have "wiggle room" while others don't.

My first cheese was an Asiago. I made some mistakes but it turned out great in flavor and texture. I made Ricotta from the whey of a Romano batch and it was perfect but attempting to use the whey from this pepper jack failed completely.  From reading about the pH factor, I bet that is why.
I will use my pH meter from here on. One thing about it that I don't like is that it takes a long time to settle on the final number, sort of like the old mercury thermometers that you had to hold under your tongue for 3 min.  This is a nuisance b/c I must stand there for up to 30 seconds while it is finding the final pH. 

Possum-Pie
I agree with you. It is funny that I always make a lot of mistakes when making cheese but I still get the result that I want. I am supposed to press cheeses such as Gouda, Asiago and etc. but I still get good results without pressing them. Even Cheddar can be made without being pressed. I almost never do the flocculation method but my cheeses still has the right moisture content and texture. Some people say you can't make "mesophilic" cheese using yogurt/yogurt culture but they don't know that there are several kinds of yogurt which can be mesophilic or mesophilic and thermophilic. I've also made cheddar using thermophilic yogurt and it had the flavor profile of a cheddar. Proper technique and getting the right pH is far more important. I still make all kinds of cheeses even when ambient temperature in my kitchen is near 100 f. I don't measure humidity and can still age all kinds of cheese just fine. I've made traditional Ricotta using acidic whey (5.3 pH). With cheesemaking, there is more than one way to skin a cat and it seems there is no right and wrong. pH is very important though, as long as you get the post salting pH right, you can get away with a lot of "mistakes".

So being aware of pH, I'm making a small 1-gallon batch of provolone today. Started pH of milk 6/8. After an hour of culture and CA+ CL- it is 6.24  Getting ready to add rennet/lipase. What should my target pH be after coagulation? I see stretching should be about 5.4 or so...

To be honest, I don't pay attention to pH during that step. I only pay attention to stretching pH when making pasta filata like Provolone. At 5.1-5.2 pH, it should stretch really well, 5.4 is too high for it to stretch properly imo. From my experience, lower pH results in better stretch. Mozzarella made from water buffalo milk stretch better with a pH of 4.9-5.0. Make sure to do a stretch test on a small piece of curd before proceeding to heat and stretch all of the curds. The test curd must stretch over a feet easily.

Quote from: Possum-Pie on December 16, 2023, 07:53:35 PM
So being aware of pH, I'm making a small 1-gallon batch of provolone today. Started pH of milk 6/8. After an hour of culture and CA+ CL- it is 6.24  Getting ready to add rennet/lipase. What should my target pH be after coagulation? I see stretching should be about 5.4 or so...

I usually target 6.1 or so, but mainly because I *think* that traditional past filata makers tend to make ricotta immediately after draining and so I reason that's what they are hitting. I agree with Aris that it probably doesn't make that much difference for this kind of cheese.  Probably.  Honestly, that drain pH is the bit that I'm feeling the most tenuous on with my understanding of cheese making.    But, anyway, it will only adjust the end result if it does anything at all.  The make or break for this one is the pH that you stretch at.

OK, total failure on the provolone.  RECIPE:

1 US gallon Cow's Milk.
Optional: Calcium Chloride if using store bought pasteurized milk, amount as per manufacturers directions or your experience.
Thermophilic starter of your choice, amount as per directions or your experience, (normally ~ 1/8 teaspoon per 1 US gallon).
Lipase powder of your choice, amount as per directions or your experience, (normally ~ 1/4 teaspoon per 1 US gallon).
Rennet, amount as per package directions or your experience, diluted in 1/4 cup cool unchlorinated water.
Salt for direct dry salting for brine.
pH papers or meter.
Makes ~1 pound cheese.
Directions
Pour milk into stockpot (vat) in double boiler on stove or directly on lowest heater element.
Heat milk slowly to 30-36°C/86-97°F, stir slowly so doesn't catch or have cold areas.
Optionally stir in diluted Calcium Chloride if using pasteurized milk.
Stir in Thermophilic Starter Culture, cover and allow milk to ripen for ~30-60 minutes, pH should be above 6.0.
Stir in Lipase, cover and let sit for ~10 minutes.
Stir in diluted rennet, cover and set aside for curd to form.
After ~40 minutes, check for Clean Curd Break, if not obtained, cover and check again in another 10-20 minutes.
When clean break obtained, Cut Curd into 1 cm/3/8 inch cubes then let cut curd rest for ~10 minutes.
Slowly heat and occasionally stir cut curds to 40°C/104°F @ 1°C/2°F every 5 minutes, should take 45 minutes. Let sit for ~15 minutes to allow cut curds to settle.
Ladle cut curds into colander, place colander over stockpot with cut curds, cover colander, and let curds sit ~30 minutes @ 41°C / 105°F.
Dip a small piece of curd into 77-82°C / 170-180°F water and perform stretch test. If not smooth and shiny stretch, try again at ~15 minute intervals (can take up to 2 hours).
Once curds are ready (pH 5.0-5.3), cut into ~2 cm /1 inch slices and place in hot water.
Let sit in hot water until enture mass stretches easily.
Remove large mass from hot water and stretch curd forming it into a large ball, then form ball into a jug shaped cheese with thumb hole at top and pulling cheese up from sides and kneading it into hole on top. If curd cools too much, place back in hot water for few seconds as required.
When cheese is shiny, place into bowl of ice water to quench.
Immerse cheese in saturated brine for 2 hours.
Age cheese at ~10°C / ~50°F and 85% humidity for 3 weeks, turn occasionally.
Age cheese at ~4°C / ~40°F and 85% humidity for 3 weeks, for 2-12 months depending on desired sharpness.


Started pH of milk 6/8. After an hour of culture and CA+ CL- it is 6.24. after Lipase and rennet, It set up well, with a clean break. After slowly heating, draining whey, resting, I realized that I couldn't test pH any longer since my meter is "liquid only" --Stretch test yielded a crumbly break. More rest time. crumbly curd.  2 hour rest longer, still crumbly. I guessed that the pH wasn't right, covered it, and put it in the fridge overnight hoping to lower pH. This morning, no stretch. Put the entire curd mass in the hot water, tried mashing it, and ended up with a pot of pea-sized whey that wouldn't even stick to each other much less stretch.  I had the exact same problem when I tried making Mozzarella and ended up throwing it all away. 
Any insights? 

You lost patience, that happened to me too multiple times in the past. I think you needed to wait longer especially the curd was in the fridge and still cool which will slow down the culture. You don't need a pH meter, use your senses and do a stretch test. The curd mass and whey will have a slightly sour taste and smell when it is ready to be stretched. When I make Mozzarella di Bufala, the curd mass has to be sour. I also read in cheesemaking.com that you shouldn't use calcium chloride when making mozarella/pasta filata because it will affect the stretch. You should give their recipe a try > https://cheesemaking.com/products/provolone-cheese-making-recipe

EDIT: You can test the whey's pH. Make sure the whey recently came from the curd mass. I let my Mozzarella curd drain inside a stock pot and the whey accumulates inside which makes it easy to assess its pH.

For what it's worth, been there, done that, have a closet full of t-shirts :-)

You really need to block off the whole day and start at 6 am.  Then you have a good shot of watching the pH like you need to.  I recognize that "up to 2 hours".  Yeah, 2 hours my ass.  Once you've done it once or twice with your setup, then you'll be able to replicate it.  It's that first time that's tough (or, like me, if you haven't made any for a year, you have to start again because probably everything has changed).Tr

I think the way to think about it is that the culture is working on the lactose in the milk.  If you were making yogurt, and you held the milk at 40 C, how long would it take with that culture.  That's literally the first thing you should do :-)  Part of the problem, though, is that 1/8 tsp of culture to 1 US gallon is essentially "Throw a random amount of culture into the pot".  It's for this reason, I switched to mother cultures.  With that said, here is my suggestion:

Take 500 ml of milk and add a pinch of culture.  Hold it at 40 C until it gels.  Put that in the fridge until you are ready for the next step (likely the next day).

Take 1 liter of milk.  Add 15 ml of the yogurt you made in the previous step.  Hold it at 40 C.  Time how long it takes to gel at 40 C.  The trick here is at gelling at 40 C is the equivalent of about a pH of 4.8 or 4.9.  When you make your cheese, it will take *most of that time* to get down to 5.1 (where you want to be).  Put your yogurt in the fridge until you are ready for the next step (likely the next day).  You can eat the 500 ml of yogurt you made in the first step :-)

Now take 4 liters of milk.  Add 60 ml of the yogurt you made in the previous step and your calcium chloride.  Don't bother with freaking lipase.  Don't bother with complicated steps.  Bring the milk right up to 40 C.  Wait about 20 minutes to pre-acidify the milk.  Add your rennet.  Time how long it takes until a milk cap floating in your milk takes to leave a mark when you remove it.  Wait 2 more of those periods (i.e. if it takes 12 minutes, then total wait time should be 36 minutes -- it should be about that).  Cut to 2 cm cubes, heal for 5 minutes, maintain heat and stir until the curds are firm.  Take a curd out of the vat.  Pull it apart with your fingers.  At first it will be hard on the outside, but "juicy" in the inside.  Keep stirring until it's no longer juicy on the inside.

Drain you curds in to a colander, retaining a good amount of your whey, putting the whey in a pot.  Put the colander on top of the pot.  Put a lid on top of the colander.  Adjust the temperature of your stove so that the heat from the whey keeps the cheese in the colander at about 40 C (Don't worry if it's off a degree or too, but keep an eye on it).  Keep flipping it every 30 minutes.

Look at the clock.  How much time has gone by?  2 hours?  3 hours?  How long did your yogurt take to gel?  8 hours?  So if we're 3 hours in and it tool 8 hours to gel, by rough estimate we need to wait another 3-4 hours (2 hours, my ass!  Can't say that enough :-) ).  Keep in mind that the cheese has less whey in it and therefore less lactose in there.  So it may take longer.

The next thing to keep in mind: We currently have cheese.  It's delicious cheese.  It's wonderful cheese.  We could salt it right now, eat it fresh after a week and it would be amazing.  We could age it a bit longer and say, "Look at me!  I made a caciotta!".  Whatever happens, let's not get *less* than this.

Try to find a clever way to collect some whey draining from the cheese.  So instead of a colander, use a pot, for example (just make sure to drain it often).  Keep tasting the whey.  At first it will be sweet.  Then you'll find that it doesn't taste like anything.  You may start to pick up more of the fat flavor as the sweetness diminishes.  And then... It will taste either just a bit tart or a bit bitter (depending on if you are good at distinguishing between acidic and bitter).  Start doing stetch tests.  Again, this is not going to be 2 hours in, probably.   Make sure that you *fully* warm up the sample and that you properly massage it in the hot water so that it's flexible.  Then stretch.  Once it stretches easily, you are good to go.

But... What happens if it doesn't work?  Maybe you ran out of time.  Maybe it just got more and more acidic, but it just doesn't seem to want to stretch (happens to me often with homogenised milk, unfortunately).  Don't panic.  You have caciotta.  Dry salt it with 2% salt and call it a day.  Try again another day.

The problem is that cheese won't stretch when it's not acidic enough.  It also won't stretch when it's too acidic.  If you go too far, then it won't stretch (which is why putting it away over night almost never works).

But if you try to stretch and it all falls apart, then strain it out in a cheese cloth and mix with cream.  You've got really bad low fat cottage cheese, but it's not terrible :-)

Wow, thanks Aris/Mikekchar! 
That helps.  Does starting with pasteurized milk slow the acidification?  I know fresh unpasteurized milk sours much quicker than pasteurized. The actual drop in pH is due to lactic acid production? I guess that seeing the steady drop in pH during the early process, and then seeing it stuck in the high 5's caused me to think there was something wrong. There are so many recipies, "experts" on YouTube, etc. giving instruction on how to do something. The trouble is you don't know what is crap and what isn't. On another forum, we were discussing people who get their healthcare information from Facebook/Twitter.  I have a doctorate and spent 8 years studying medicine...Yet people argue that they saw such and such on Facebook so they are going to take that supplement.  The trouble is, the internet has made everyone appear on equal ground as far as knowledge. I fear that I've put too much faith in random YouTubers and untested recipies...

I decided to put the whole crumbly mess into my press and see what happened.  I have a tight-packed wheel of some kind of cheese now, Maybe it will be good!

Basically, the pH is buffered by calcium phosphate.  The bacteria produces lactic acid as it consumes lactose.  The kind of tricky bit is that the vast majority of calcium phosphate is locked up in the casein micelles.  As the pH drops, the structure of the micelles relaxes and it liberates more calcium phosphate into solution.  This will again buffer the pH.  It's actually common in mozzarella making to hit a pH of 5.1 and then after a few hours find that you are now at a pH of 5.3 because so much calcium phosphate has been liberated (I believe they call it "pH rebound" in the literature).  So some producers hit a target lower than ideal because they know that they are going to rebound into the correct place.  I suspect (but don't know) that this is what's happening with Aris's lovely buffalo milk, as he says he gets best results around 4.9.  It just might be that his particular milk has a lot of calcium phosphate and that it comes into solution at that time.

So, anyway, it's quite common for it cheese to be buffered at a particular pH and then come crashing down all of a sudden, so you have to keep your eyes open.  Also, be aware that pH meters are finicky and it's quite easy to get wildly incorrect results (can by off by a factor of 100, accounting for the logarithmic scale).  Every time I hear reports of weird readings, my first reaction is to doubt the reading :-)  I've come to that conclusion after owning several pH meters and having decided I didn't want to use them any more  ;)

I calibrate my pH meter and it seems fairly accurate, BUT not precise.  Accuracy is "hitting the bullseye" in a target or giving the actual pH on a meter.  Precision is getting the same results all of the time.  My pH meter often gives me 7.0, 7,1, 6.9... for distilled water.  The average of those is accurately " 7.0 but it doesn't give me the same reading every time.  My digital scale will give me 5.67 grams as the weight of a U.S. quarter every time I throw any quarter on it...it is both accurate and precise. you can fix accuracy in an instrument (calibrate it) but you can't fix precision.

(https://global.discourse-cdn.com/wanikanicommunity/original/4X/1/0/2/102439c998bcd4518cd5114d03d9c0076b65c9a7.png)

Can bringing the temperature up too fast after cutting and resting the curds affect the pH not dropping far enough?

Quote from: Possum-Pie on December 19, 2023, 11:32:47 AM

Can bringing the temperature up too fast after cutting and resting the curds affect the pH not dropping far enough?

It does effect the pH, but maybe not the way you are thinking. Mikekchar summed it up really well in another post:

Quote from: mikekchar
When heating curds, water gets expelled from the curds. The basic idea is that warm water is less dense than cool water. The bigger the difference in temperature between the inside of the curd and the outside of the curd, the faster water will be forced out of the curd.

The problem is that the water gets forced out of the outside layer of the curd first (because it is in contact with the warm water). If the water leaves fast enough, the outside of the curd will dry up. This stops whey from being expelled from the curd. The result is called "case hardening". Basically you end up with curds that have lots of moisture inside them and they will never really dry out. That, in turn, means that your cheese will have a higher moisture content and that it will drain a lot slower than you would like. Usually that gives you very acidic, crumbly cheeses.

Just to be clear what I think Ben was getting at, if you "case harden" the curds by heating them too fast, they will retain whey.  Whey contains lactose.  Lactose gets converted to lactate and makes it get acidic.

When the curds are draining well in the vat, you remove most of the lactose when you drain the curds.  This reduces the speed (and potentially extent) that the curds will acidify.  If they aren't draining well, the curds will acidify much more quickly after you drain the whey.

In terms of accuracy and precision, my understanding of the usual problems with these kinds of pH meters is that protein on the bulb can affect the reading.  Washing the bulb often changes the calibration.  So it's every easy to get inaccurate results unless you are very attentive to washing *and* calibrating the meter.  This is the reason that some pros still use titration to measure acidity (it's basically impossible to get wrong once you learn how to do it).  I've thought about measuring TA, but keeping a store of reagents is a pain in the bum :-)  Also, I have no place to store easily breakable glassware.  But, then, if I wear goggles and a lab coat, measuring TA *is* really science-y...  I would need to work on my maniacal laugh though (Who am I kidding?  I don't have to work on it...)

One of the biggest challenges that I have is "slowly" raising the temp from around 90 F up to some target temp. over 45 minutes. I have an electric stovetop so turning the temp up that slowly is a challenge. Sometimes I find that I hit the target temperature 15 min. after I started stirring. I'll be more careful next time since it seems it's better to have lower temps during much of the stirring to prevent hardening of the outer whey.
Yes, I've pretty much decided that the pH meter isn't very useful for cheesemaking except maybe to get the starting pH of the milk. I hate the pH strips as I have a very difficult time differentiating the subtle color differences between some of the values.  I like the suggestions posted here about learning to guess the approx. pH by subtle characteristics of the whey.

I have used one of the inexpensive pH meters in the past for beer/wine. It was a pain, constant calibration, needing relatively clean liquid etc. It is not a good solution. The cost of labware to do titration makes that inhibitive, plus risk of breakage is just not worth it in my little 2 gallon "cheese factory". I have broken enough hydrometers to know glassware can't exist in the brewery. pH strips are a little tough: there is a significant difference between a pH of 5.1 and 5.3 in cheesemaking, but it can be very difficult to tell the difference in color on strips. I don't have near the experience required to tell pH without any sort of instrumentation.

I picked up an extick on black friday. It is way easier, self calibrating with known pH solutions (I can do this while warming milk, and the known calibration solutions are easy enough to source), tells you when the calibration is out, it will pH a solid cheese (much faster with whey though) and cleaning is less fiddly than some of the others I have used in the past. Also gives me a double check on temps. Hopefully it is the long term answer for some consistency in the recipes. Ultimately consistancy is the thing I am most interested in so for me the expense made sense. I have made most of my own forms, and my own press so I haven't really spent much on the hobby which made the expense a little easier to swallow. Plus I will use it for the beer/wine/whiskey side.

My point is cheap pH meters may not be worth what you pay for them, but that doesn't mean all pH meters are junk.


On the temp rise things, you could use a water bath (sous vide is the king for small batch cheese making) or cycle your power on and off.

UPDATE:
So rather than throw out the crumbly ruined provolone attempt, I pressed it overnight, brined it, and dried it.  Within 24 hours it was bone dry.  I decided to cut it in half, smoke it in the cold smoker, and see what happens.  The flavor was incredible. It tastes nutty like Provolone, but the consistency is more like aged romano. It is very dry, and probably best used for grating, but once smoked and vacuum sealed, it will be useful.   

pH meters: It's a good point that the last time I used one was probably 20 years ago.  Probably they have improved a good way since then!

For slowly heating, if I don't have good temperature control on the stove, normally I just move the pot off and on the burner.  Get the burner warm.  Put the pot on.  Heat up 1 degree over about a minute.  Take the pot off.  Wait 4 minutes.  Put the pot on.  It's a workout, but it's an easy way to control the temp.

this is such an interesting thread which I have just read it  from the beginning. It really demonstrates the value of a forum where people are generous with their knowledge and slowly inspire the newcomers to experiment. It took me two years of regular cheesemaking before I dared to go 'off piste' . It reminds me of photography when I learned it as a child from my father. I never used an exposure meter and just learned to sense the correct exposure which is akin to not using a ph meter in cheesemaking. You can often get away with it but adopting a more scientific approach will repay you in the end. There are many parallels with beer and whisky making both of which I have studied in great detail. Great whisky makers get in a 'rut' and get obsessed with minutiae, terrified that even the smallest changes will alter their precious spirit. The most experimental makers are the small new ones who have no pedigree stretching out behind them  and no loyal customers who demand consistency. Even something  as fundamental as the impact of  yeast strains  in distilling is almost completely ignored ,except from the perspective of  being terrified to change anything.  The cheese equivalent is culture variability. I am currently obsessed with trying to replicate the Red Leicester made by Belton farms under the name of Red Fox. This has such an intense sweet favour that makes it intensely moreish. I have been fiddling about with my cultures trying to hit a target I can't see ( Belton Farms keep their culture secrets close to their chest for good reason. ) Using flavour adjuncts in my current approach (eg. Flav 54 which contains S. Helveticus ) Speaking personally I can't stop and I have become obsessed to the extent of taking the exams of the Academy of Cheese during the summer. Level 2 ( membership) involves tasting and rating 75 cheeses which I found challenging but fascinating. Acquiring a detailed comprehensive picture of the entire professional field, definite helps my cheesemaking, just as studying the work of the great photographers helped my photography ( www.broombankpublishing.com (http://www.broombankpublishing.com)) I am surprised how many cheesemakers are apparently ignorant of the great cheeses which a first class cheese shop will have on their counter. I get my inspiration from tasting the work of the cheese masters and trying my best to replicate it.

broombank,

Speaking of cultures, Belton farms might use Barber's MT36 which is used by Stichelton, Montgomery, Kirkham and etc. It is sold in liquid form, less refined and has more strains of bacteria. Imho even if you use their secret starter culture, you will never recreate their Red Fox because indigenous microflora play a role. The microbes in your kitchen is very different from the microbes in their factory. The milk you use is also different from the milk they use even though they are both cow's milk. The cow's diet plays a big role in the flavor of the milk. I make Mozzarella di Bufala and the water buffalo milk I use is totally different from the water buffalo milk in Italy. Mozzarella di Bufala DOP has a subtle floral flavor while my Mozzarella has none of it. There is a famous Swedish cheese called Vasterbottensost and it can only be made in one location in Sweden. They tried to make it in 3 different locations in Sweden and they failed. I noticed that commercial starter cultures like Flora Danica and C101 gives a harsher acidic taste than my natural wild starter cultures. I have a Caciotta style cheese that I inoculated with natural whey starter (originated from clabber or sour milk) and it has a sweet taste with non existent harsh acidity. It is a bit sweeter than a Gouda cheese but the curds were never washed. Clabber and kefir grains are also the same, they don't give a harsh acidic taste.

I actually stopped using Flora Danica because it is such an aggressive acidifier and the acid it gives is too harsh. Gruyere and Parmigiano Reggiano are sweet and savory cheeses that still uses natural whey starter which is wild. I am now back to using a random 10 strain Danish meso and thermo yogurt from China because it gives a sweet taste, better texture (more creamy because it has bacteria that produce exopolysaccharide) and gives more buttery flavor. I like that you mentioned yeast. I am also into distilling and brewing. I love the fact that yeast also play a big role in cheesemaking specifically blue cheese and washed rinds/smear ripened cheese. For example, Stilton gets its distinct aroma from a yeast called Yarrowia Lipolytica. It can boost the aroma of blue cheese. I plan to use baker's yeast and brewer's yeast in my next blue cheeses. I don't feel like spending a lot of money buying KL 71 and DH cheese yeast.

Being new to cheesemaking, I didn't research cultures but bought a CHEESE CULTURE, THERMOPHILIC TYPE B - FOR ITALIAN STYLE CHEESES from Amazon.  It is made by Biena and I believe it contains Lactobacillus helveticus.  I also am looking for a "buttery" flavor if I try making the Provolone again.
Here in the U.S., the average commercial brand of Provolone cheese is NOT like the European style in shape or flavor but I do enjoy it on sandwiches. One reason I got into this hobby was because of the huge differences in what can be purchased here. I wanted to expand my horizons. I began purchasing small wedges of imported cave cheeses, and trying different styles from different countries.

Thanks Aris for the helpful suggestions re Red Leicester. I'm only too aware that I can't replicated the terroir but at least I can try ! What ever comes out the end will be interesting in its own right even if it's a million miles from Red Fox.
As a former home brewer, yeast fascinates me. I used to use Wye Yeast cultures which were very specific to beer styles. But the amazing thing was how they behaved. Some were 'alive' and could produce waves and turbulence in the wort . One even exploded. Another one would sit like a pizza on top of the beer and then suddenly drop to the bottom when its work was done. My wife stole a handful of distillers yeast when we did a tour of Fettercairn malt whisky distillery ( 15 miles south of Aberdeen) I used it to make beer or rather I would have done if it had behaved . As it was the conditions were totally different and I couldn't get it to work at all. Just heightened my respect for the mysteries of distillation. This morning I spent half an hour queuing for cheese in the Aberdeen cheese shop ( Gourmet cheese of Rosemount) The sheer variety of wonderful cheeses was overwhelming. People stare at it transfixed. Every country in Europe was represented and many unusual British cheeses too. If I needed anything to push me to continue that would be it . Truly inspiring . It sounds Possum - Pie as if you have had some good tasting sessions in Europe. I commend you for trying to replicate them in the US which is quite a task. Good luck !

Quote from: Possum-Pie on December 22, 2023, 11:05:28 AM
Being new to cheesemaking, I didn't research cultures but bought a CHEESE CULTURE, THERMOPHILIC TYPE B - FOR ITALIAN STYLE CHEESES from Amazon.  It is made by Biena and I believe it contains Lactobacillus helveticus.

Type C is the helveticus.  Type B is the bulgaricus.  I have both and like them both very much.  Type B is very versatile and will be very nice for a provalone, IMHO.  Type C would be for doing more alpine style cheeses.  Last year I did some asiago style cheeses with it and liked it a lot in that application.  I also did some Swiss style alpines with it.

Anyway, if I could only have one it would be the B, but helveticus is necessary for certain cheeses (and not desirable for others).

Possum Pie,

They say Flora Danica gives a buttery flavor but for me it is not good enough. LM57 (Leuconostoc mesenteroides) is an adjunct culture that gives a buttery flavor to cheese. It is also very useful in blue cheese because it also produce gas/co2 inside the cheese which creates holes and cracks for blue mold to grow. You need to combine LM57 with a starter culture such as MM100, Flora Danica or Thermophilic type B because it produce minimal amounts of lactic acid.

broombank,

You should try sourcing MT36 since you are already in the UK. Call Barber's farmhouse and ask for a sample or ask those makers I mentioned if they can give you a small sample. In the brewing world, there are a lot more variety of yeast strains that are in liquid form while dry yeast are very limited. I read that not all strains/species can be freeze dried. It is the same in cheesemaking, there is actually a company that sell liquid cultures for cheese. They sell mold, yeast, bacteria for washed rind/smear ripened cheese and etc. I didn't see starter cultures though. What I find really interesting is they have 13 P. Roqueforti and 9 G. Candidum strains!

that's really interesting Aris - do you know the name of the company selling liquid cultures ?

https://www.lip-sas.fr/index.php/nos-produits/notre-gamme (https://www.lip-sas.fr/index.php/nos-produits/notre-gamme)

Hi, again...I tried my hand at a Gouda. Followed the recipe exactly, washed the curds, and they looked fine, they shrunk to about "cottage cheese" size. Upon pressing, it was lumpy and had fissures running through it. I brined it air-dried it and vacuum-sealed it so we will see how it tastes.  This is the second cheese that I have made that did this...my PepperJack tastes wonderful but cutting it with a knife makes it crumble. 

I was wondering if A. I pressed too hard/too long? I have no spring on my homemade press so I just turn it until I see clear whey.  Or B. maybe it's the calcium chloride? I've heard some people say too much can screw up the cheese consistency.  I put the required amount (1ml for 5 liters milk).  I don't think I brought it to temp too fast, I know from this thread that that can harden the outside of the curd faster than the inside, I was careful with temp this time.

This is my pepperjack...

(https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/hys1gtkyt8ea1fu9g9w94/IMG_3404-1.JPG?rlkey=zpstspg4mxrta25kzpvrd0tdg&raw=1)

Common Cheese Defects
Body: in the context of modern sensory analysis, body refers to texture, which is confusing because cheese graders use the term "texture" to refer to cheese openness. Here, we will use the traditional cheese grading terms. Some descriptors for body defects are:

Crumbly/short: often due to excess salt or acid.
Corky: due to overcooking, low fat, low moisture, or excess salt.
Mealy: this defect can be detected on the palate or by massaging the cheese between the thumb and forefinger. It is usually associated with excess acidity.
Pasty: sticks to the palate and fingers; due to excess moisture.
Weak: breaks down too quickly when worked by hand due to excess fat or moisture.

That is from University of Guelph. You can find more info here > https://books.lib.uoguelph.ca/cheesemakingtechnologyebook/chapter/5-4-defects-and-grading/
I suggest you make a Caciotta, use mesophilic culture, skip the stufatura, use your preferred chilis and aim for a pH of 5.3-5.4. The resulting cheese will be very close to a Pepper Jack.
https://cheesemaking.com/products/caciotta-recipe

> I suggest you make a Caciotta, use mesophilic culture, skip the stufatura, use your preferred chilis and aim for a pH of 5.3-5.4.

Aris, you and I need to give a name to this overall style of cheese :-)  It's weird to me that there isn't one already.

The recipe did contain salt, but I didn't put in more than called for and the cheese doesn't taste too salty, maybe it was an acid thing. That cheese was made before I began testing acidity.  As I said, tastes great, and melts well. Pain to try to put on a cracker though...

Quote from: mikekchar on January 06, 2024, 09:06:23 AM
> I suggest you make a Caciotta, use mesophilic culture, skip the stufatura, use your preferred chilis and aim for a pH of 5.3-5.4.

Aris, you and I need to give a name to this overall style of cheese :-)  It's weird to me that there isn't one already.

You should do the honors of giving it a name. "Caciotta" is like my template when making different kinds of semi soft and hard melting cheese. It is highly customizable. I can make it semi soft or hard by adjusting rennet set time, curd size, cook time and cook temperature. If I want it to be "Gouda" like, I wash the curds and it doesn't need to be pressed. It can be aged vacuum packed, oiled, natural rind/mixed rind or washed rind. I've even made one that was very similar to a mature cheddar in flavor, taste and texture without doing any cheddaring. I think it was likely related to pH (5.1-5.2), age (almost 15 months) and moisture content.

Possum Pie,
What about the taste? Is it sour/tangy? I think its pH must be 4.8-5.0 and it can still melt at that pH range.

It tastes like a cross between a nice cheddar and the jack.  I cold smoked it which took it to a whole new level of flavor but can cover "tangy" tastes.  I gave half of the wheel to my mother who promptly ate some on crackers and loved it.  She made a mac and cheese with some and stated that it melted smoothly.  I can't complain about the flavor or the "heat" (she is 80 and likes a mild heat) so it was a success except for the crumbly texture. I just made a Gouda that seems to be drying to the same crumbly texture so not sure what is wrong.  As I said, I have not thrown away any of my experiments, they all have good flavor, but except for my first cheese (Asiago) they have all been on the crumbly side. The Asiago was perfect...Cutting with a wire yielded a clean compact slice.

Quote from: Possum-Pie on January 06, 2024, 05:00:22 PM
It tastes like a cross between a nice cheddar and the jack.  I cold smoked it which took it to a whole new level of flavor but can cover "tangy" tastes.  I gave half of the wheel to my mother who promptly ate some on crackers and loved it.  She made a mac and cheese with some and stated that it melted smoothly.  I can't complain about the flavor or the "heat" (she is 80 and likes a mild heat) so it was a success except for the crumbly texture. I just made a Gouda that seems to be drying to the same crumbly texture so not sure what is wrong.  As I said, I have not thrown away any of my experiments, they all have good flavor, but except for my first cheese (Asiago) they have all been on the crumbly side. The Asiago was perfect...Cutting with a wire yielded a clean compact slice.

A nice cheddar and jack for me is savory, slightly sweet and slightly sour. They are pretty balanced in taste. If your cheese is noticeably tangy or sour, the issue is excess acidity or pH is too low. I like your story about your mother. My mother loves the non stinky cheeses I make and she is amazed how beautiful they are. It is like she can't believe I can make such beautiful cheeses at home. I actually made a mac and cheese several days ago using my really old cheeses (over 13 months and almost 15 months) and she really enjoyed it. She was surprised on how "meaty" it was. My water buffalo milk cheeses tends to have a meaty or cured meat flavor. Anyway, what recipe did you use for your Pepper Jack?
(https://i.imgur.com/Qe7dFtP.jpg)

Here in America, people like a WIDE variety of cheeses. Many people like "generic" cheese that is mild, great melting, and not exotic. You can buy a block of "Velveta" which is pasteurized cheese spread that has that profile.  Some people are adventurous and buy European cave cheeses or sharp cheeses, but most just want a generic "safe" cheese.  My mother does like the kick of a pepper-infused cheese, but at over 80 years old, doesn't want something that will burn on the way down and burn on the way out...This flavor was perfect, but the crumble was disappointing.

America also have artisan cheesemakers (Jasper Hill, Rogue River creamery, Cowgirl creamery, Parish Hill creamery and etc.) that I find interesting. I am asking about the taste (bitter, umami/savory, sour, sweet and salty) specifically and the recipe you used so I can troubleshoot your issue better.

(https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/8bm7324iiffbnyfce9vip/pepperjack.jpg?rlkey=pyl4c00r4ptivjz1e88lyucc9&raw=1)

I'm not very good at describing the taste of this cheese, but it definitely leans more toward a cheddar flavor than a Monterey Jack. There is no umami, slightly salty, I keep going back to a "sharp" cheddar undertone. 
I'm still wondering about the amount of CaCl.  I have a syringe, I think I'll start using milliliters rather than some small fraction of a teaspoon.

That is from Gavin, do you have a video link? I've checked his jack cheese videos and that isn't it. Ingredients list doesn't really help. I need to know the whole procedure. Gavin's jack cheeses are pretty bad texture wise. If its flavor is more of a cheddar, it means pH is on the low side (4.9-5-1) and it shows in the texture (corky, crumbly) of your cheese. I've had an American Heritage Monterey jack several months ago. It was very different from your typical cheddar. It had a subtle brown butter flavor that I love and a well balanced taste. Just the right amount of saltiness, sweetness and acidity with a very faint bitterness which was actually nice. Its texture was creamy, semi soft like a low moisture mozzarella and pliable. It is the perfect snacking cheese. Iirc Land o Lakes Pepper Jack was very similar. Anyway, try a different recipe. Typical pepper jack or jack cheese recipes where you apply salt directly to the curds are problematic. Give Caciotta cheese a try like I said before. At the end of the day, the result is what matters. For example, I have my own cheese recipes and I can make a "cheddar" like cheese without using a cheddar recipe or without doing any cheddaring. I can also make a cheese that resembles a Gouda or Edam without washing the curds. As you have already experienced, just because you followed a "pepper jack" recipe doesn't mean it will become one.  For me, it is mostly about getting the right pH and moisture content. Many recipes can't guarantee you will get those right and many recipes don't even mention pH.

It's the "Triple Pepper Jack" recipe: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZsqGS8jHA0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZsqGS8jHA0)

25 ml of buttermilk per liter is crazy.  Whatever.  Anyway, this isn't a Jack.  I don't think Gavin knows what a Jack cheese is.  To be fair, in the US, I think it's pretty common for producers to make a mild cheddar and call it a Jack.  This recipe is super weird.  Too much culture.  40 minute set at 32 C, followed by a 40 minute cook raising to 38 C, drain and straight into the press (and then press the snot out of it right out of the gate).  So it's not a cheddar.  It's not quite a tomme.  It's definitely not a Jack.  I don't know what it is...

Mike,
Yeah you are right, it sure is the triple pepper jack. I actually thought it was the triple jack cheese at first but in his screenshot, the chilis were not included which confused me. Gavin's "pepper jack" is very similar to Possum Pie's cheese texture wise. At least that recipe has some "consistency". I agree it is definitely not a jack. Its moisture content and texture are totally wrong for a "pepper jack".

 Yes, this was the Gavin triple pepper jack, I deleted the last three ingredients (flakes, powder, oil) b/c I chose not to use them. I used my own dried jalapenos. I just now watched his "taste test" at the end and YES! his was crumbly also. Makes me feel better, probably the recipe, not my technique.  Do you see what he used/did that made it crumbly? I did NOT use buttermilk, I used cultures.

Ok, here is my take-away.  I should follow established cheese recipes found in reliable books until I'm more comfortable.  Just b/c someone has many seemingly successful cheesemaking videos on YouTube doesn't make him an expert.  I started using the videos b/c they were easy to follow while I was actually making cheese. There are A LOT of intricate steps to follow and I could pause the videos. Some of the cheesemaking videos are obviously just "homesteaders" winging it and getting lucky. I've seen some things that made me just move on and not try them.  As I said, my very first cheese a few months ago (Asiago) turned out perfectly in taste and texture. After that, I started experiencing problems.

Quote from: Possum-Pie on January 09, 2024, 01:00:52 PM
Yes, this was the Gavin triple pepper jack, I deleted the last three ingredients (flakes, powder, oil) b/c I chose not to use them. I used my own dried jalapenos. I just now watched his "taste test" at the end and YES! his was crumbly also. Makes me feel better, probably the recipe, not my technique.  Do you see what he used/did that made it crumbly? I did NOT use buttermilk, I used cultures.

Ok, here is my take-away.  I should follow established cheese recipes found in reliable books until I'm more comfortable.  Just b/c someone has many seemingly successful cheesemaking videos on YouTube doesn't make him an expert.  I started using the videos b/c they were easy to follow while I was actually making cheese. There are A LOT of intricate steps to follow and I could pause the videos. Some of the cheesemaking videos are obviously just "homesteaders" winging it and getting lucky. I've seen some things that made me just move on and not try them.  As I said, my very first cheese a few months ago (Asiago) turned out perfectly in taste and texture. After that, I started experiencing problems.

Yeah, it is the recipe. I noticed those "intricate steps" especially the cooking, which didn't help with the texture and moisture content for some reason. He cooked the curds for over 70 minutes yet the cheese still retained a lot of whey and it seeped out when he vacuum packed it.
(https://i.imgur.com/78U5S0i.png)

With my Pepper Jack inspired cheese, I only stirred for over 40 minutes at less than 100 f and it was never pressed but I still got the texture and moisture content right. My cheese also had minimal whey seepage in the vacuum bag. In time, you will know what to look for when making and aging cheese and you will be able to adjust on the fly. For me, learning to make cheese got a lot easier when I stopped following recipes and obsessing about following them to the letter over a decade ago. Just following directions and being told what to do won't allow me to learn the inner workings of cheesemaking.

I got no whey weeping at all, I suspect that all of his chili rub drew out water by osmosis.  I see many people post that they don't press...I think I press too hard and too fast. I don't have a spring and turn the screw until I see clear whey run out. I know pressing forms the shape, but does it really help expel much whey? I never measured it, but I doubt it's much more than a few ccs of liquid.

Quote from: Possum-Pie on January 09, 2024, 03:47:24 PM
I got no whey weeping at all, I suspect that all of his chili rub drew out water by osmosis.  I see many people post that they don't press...I think I press too hard and too fast. I don't have a spring and turn the screw until I see clear whey run out. I know pressing forms the shape, but does it really help expel much whey? I never measured it, but I doubt it's much more than a few ccs of liquid.

I think it is more related to the pH of the curds when it was salted. As the cheese/curds develop acidity, whey gets removed naturally which is called syneresis. I used this to my advantage to get the right moisture content and texture. Salting the curds immediately when it has a high pH seems to screw up syneresis. My Pepper Jack and Asiago inspired cheeses below were not pressed. Others say pressing the cheese is needed to expel whey but I can get away not pressing almost all of my cheeses.
(https://i.imgur.com/EOSYujt.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/ltWHdnR.jpg)

Aris, beautiful pepperjack.  You didn't press it? I expect that is why there were a few small mechanical holes.  The texture looks much more like what I expected from mine.

Another question: When I made my Romano, I saved the whey and made ricotta from it. I got maybe 1.5 cups and was very pleased. When I made the pepper jack and the gouda, I got nothing.  A few small dry curds.  I know many people don't bother with it, but I'd like to get ricotta from the whey if possible.  What would cause such a drastic difference in amount? 

Quote from: Possum-Pie on January 09, 2024, 03:47:24 PM
I got no whey weeping at all, I suspect that all of his chili rub drew out water by osmosis.  I see many people post that they don't press...I think I press too hard and too fast. I don't have a spring and turn the screw until I see clear whey run out. I know pressing forms the shape, but does it really help expel much whey? I never measured it, but I doubt it's much more than a few ccs of liquid.

On your pressing, I think a screw press needs the springs, as they give tension over a longer period of time. Unfortunately the rate of pressing is the opposite of what we want, it is high at first then gets lower as the springs begin to relax. The lack of springs makes that even more dramatic, you are starting at a high pressure then have almost none as the cheese expels whey.

I may be misreading, but it seems like you are pressing too hard. You should see just a few little drips of whey coming off. Try rigging your press with one of your empty jugs as a weight. Fill it with just enough water to get a few drops of whey coming off at a time, that will keep you from closing the rind as quickly. It doesn't take a lot of weight, my first press on my mechanical press is often just the weight of the press.

You are absolutely correct. Without having a spring I am pressing too hard in the beginning and when some whey is expelled the force then lessens  I tend to get excited with a new hobby, and many fizzle out. I've learned over the years not to invest too much until I decide I enjoy it. Thus, I made my press from scraps I had in my workshop. It is almost identical to store-bought ones (I used cherry wood which is hard and resistant to breaks) but my center rod that screws down into the follower has no spring. I tried looking for a spring with a set tensile strength (ie 30lbs) but couldn't find one so I screw down until I start to see whey, wait a bit, screw more, etc. until finally I tighten it down and leave it 12 hrs. or whatever the recipe calls for.  I do have a spring that feels like about a 10lb bag would compress it, I may try to attach that.


I did the same thing with growing gormet mushrooms, I gerry-rigged a lot in the beginning until I knew I liked the hobby, then went out and bought the expensive fruiting tent, humidifier with humidistat, etc.  They pay for themselves over the years only if you don't give up the hobby in disgust and throw them in the attic  ;)

Quote from: Possum-Pie on January 10, 2024, 02:26:47 PM
Aris, beautiful pepperjack.  You didn't press it? I expect that is why there were a few small mechanical holes.  The texture looks much more like what I expected from mine.

Another question: When I made my Romano, I saved the whey and made ricotta from it. I got maybe 1.5 cups and was very pleased. When I made the pepper jack and the gouda, I got nothing.  A few small dry curds.  I know many people don't bother with it, but I'd like to get ricotta from the whey if possible.  What would cause such a drastic difference in amount?

Thanks. Yeah, it didn't get pressed. It had minimal holes and I also used Flora Danica which can create some small holes because it produce CO2. Its texture was creamy and pliable, very close to the real deal. It also melted really well. Regarding your Ricotta, pH must not be in the right range. Do you use vinegar or acid? When I am using water buffalo milk whey, the whey needs to have a pH of below 5.9 for ricotta to float. Nowadays I prefer the pH of the whey to drop to 5.2-5.4 which results in a Ricotta that is slightly sweet, slightly tangy and savory. Goat's milk whey is far more forgiving when making ricotta, it floats even when the whey pH is over 6.0. Cow's milk whey needs to be below 6 pH in order for the ricotta to float. Whenever I fail making traditional ricotta (no acid is added and made from sweet whey), I add vinegar incrementally until the ricotta floats.

Imho a screw press is not a good cheese press. If I do press a cheese, I use 2 buckets and the top bucket is filled with water to act as weights. If I need more weight, I add weight plates on top.
(https://i.imgur.com/1O7uv6N.jpg)

You don't need (or even want, IMHO) a spring.  Just screw down the press until you see a little bit of whey seeping.  Keep your eye on it and adjust the tension to keep a little bit of whey seeping.  The first 15 minutes you'll probably have to adjust if 1-2 times (if you even put any weight on it at all).  The next 15 minutes, you might have to adjust it once.  The next 30 minutes probably not at all.  The next 30 minutes you definitely won't.

People press their cheeses waaaaay too hard generally.  If you have to put 30 lbs of pressure on a 1-3 lb cheese, *you have done it wrong* (assuming it's not a cheddar, in which case there are scenarios where you're probably OK).  Even commercial parmesan producers put less than 25 kg on a 25 kg cheese.  You don't need much weight if you are hitting your drain pH correctly and not over pressing at the beginning.

Furthermore every single recipe that includes pressing weights is suspect, IMHO.  Your pressing weight and my pressing weight will be dramatically different just due to circumstance.  Especially if they give a pressing weight, but *not* a drain pH, it's like saying, "Here's a random cheese.  Let's press with random weight!"  Virtually every single video you see on the internet shows people massively over pressing their cheeses (often by 10x the amount of weight they should be putting on the cheese).  Sometimes it works out OK.  Frequently it does not.

The goal of pressing a cheese is to close the gaps in the cheese.  That is all.  100%.  Finished.  Nothing else to do!  As long as you don't over press the cheese it will completely drain itself of whey on its own.  People think they have to press to get whey out of the cheese.  That's just absolutely and completely wrong.  Totally!

Was that emphatic enough? :-)

You need to keep the cheese structure open for the first 2 hours of draining so that the whey can get out.  If you press it too hard, you will close the cheese and whey can not escape.  However, you want to close it as soon as possible after that because the cheese knits the most easily the higher the pH.  You want to *very* slowly close the gaps in the cheese over the first 2 hours with the goal of completely closing it exactly at 2 hours.  It's better to err on the side of too slow rather than too fast.

One thing to keep in mind.  Above a pH of 6.0, virtually all cheeses will close without any weight.  By the time you get down to a pH of 5.3 you're starting to need multiples of the weight of the cheese, if the cheese is dry.  If you are finding that you need a lot of weight it's essentially because you got into the mold too late.  The pH is too low.  You make have additionally over cooked or over stirred the cheese, leading to case hardening or just very dry curds.  Pretty much it all boils down to making fairly large mistakes in the make.  It's too acidic, you raised the temperature too high too fast, you fractured the curd and it dried out, you cooked too long, you stirred too aggressively.

Oddly, the amount of culture you added to your milk (and how you handled the make) is crucial because the more active culture you have, the faster the cheese will acidify.  The faster it acidifies, the more difficult it will be to close the cheese.  Measuring and tracking how the cheese is acidifying, getting the cheese into the mold at the correct pH, and maintaining the correct room temperature while pressing are crucial to pressing your cheese.  Small variations in these parameters will have massive effects on the amount of weight you need.

This is one of the reasons I only use mother cultures when  make cheese.  Directly adding DVI cultures to small cheeses is an invitation to having absolutely no idea how quickly the curd is acidifying.  I always do a flocculation test so that I can see how quickly the curd is forming.  The faster it forms, the faster the milk is acidifying.  I use that timing to inform me how much time I have to get the cheese into the mold.  Then I cut, cook and stir the curds with the goal of hitting that target.  You can also use a pH meter to track your progress, but it's not necessary once you get the hang of it.

I always recommend making a simple cheese like a caciotta several times to get to the point where you can make a good solid cheese with barely any (or even not having any) pressing.  Once you have your skill at that level, you can make other cheeses much more easily.

Thanks Mikechar, I found a post of yours that includes a detailed recipe for caciotta on the forum. That will be my next cheese. 

Update on "ruined" provolone.  6 weeks in the cheese cave and there were several small blue mold dots. It is not surprising since it is a low-acidity cheese. I decided to try some. As I mentioned previously, it was very hard. Cutting it was like cutting Romano. It cut cleanly and did not crumble though, and had no mechanical holes. The flavor was incredible—Buttery Provolone with a hint of nut.  Overall, except for the overpressing, I'm happy. My wife likes it by the slice, but I much prefer it grated.

(https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/zzj4w7cudsvmb0kkro3eb/provo.jpg?rlkey=otxkpz7p29nc3u9all7n92819&raw=1)

Awesome, congrats!

Quote from: B e n on January 28, 2024, 03:28:24 PM
Awesome, congrats!

Thanks...my new journey into cheesemaking has not produced a cheese that I didn't like, but the texture/consistency of the wheels still needs a lot of work. I'm beginning to believe that the real art is to get the perfect texture. Flavor seems to be a bit more forgiving.

Possum-Pie
Nice to know it came out good. For me, flavor, taste and texture are tied together, even appearance. If I get the texture wrong (crumbly), its taste will be too sour and it will have a harsh lactic flavor. I recently opened an over 14 months old (I ignored it because I have a lot of cheese aging) Pepper Jack style cheese and its texture is great which means the flavor and taste are also great. It has some flakiness because of its age. Its flavor is similar to vintage cheddar but spicy and has a nice chili flavor and its taste is sweet and savory. It also has minimal acidity which I prefer. I am not really fond of tangy/tart tasting cheese.
(https://i.imgur.com/CpjqCf5.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/APCjn2f.jpeg)

A cheese for you Possum-Pie (thumbs up)

Thanks everyone for the continued encouragement!