So, my Wensleydale is chilling in the slightly warm fridge, and I wanted (ahem, *needed*) to try my hand at something. I was going to wait a little bit longer, but had a rough day at work on Tuesday and wasn't feeling all that great, so I figured what the hell, let's try making Caerphilly.
Again, I used a combination of JeffHamm's recipe and the one from the 200 Cheeses book (Jeff's are a little too sparse for a newbie cheesemaker... they just lack some of the steps/procedures that you guys just know how to do). I haven't put my handwritten notes onto my computer yet, or I'd just link that.
A rough ingredient list
2 Gallons of Homogenized Pasteurized whole milk
1 Packet of NEC Meso
1/2 Packet NEC Buttermilk (the leftovers from my Wensleydale)
1/4 tsp CaCl (it was supposed to be 3/8 tsp... but I don't have the right equipment to measure that... so I just used a heaping 1/4)
1/2 tablet of rennet.
The make itself went pretty good right up to pressing. I again had some issues with the temperature rising more than I wanted it to during the ripening phase.
If I may, a question about this... I'm using a 12 quart double boiler on my electric range to heat/cook the milk. It seems if I pull the pot out of the water bath, it cools down several degrees. If I leave it in the water bath (removed from the range... just sitting on the counter), it just continues to rise 5-10f. Neither of these seem desirable. How precise do my temps need to be? Is there some technique I should be using instead of the double boiler? (It seems I have seen people just "cooking" stuff in their sinks using the water from the tap... is that a reasonable method?)
Anyway, back to the make. As I said, it went mostly well up until I started pressing. It was right about then that my wife had to leave for work. So of course, the internet (i.e. Netflix... more i.e. the babysitter) died. I hurried and piled the curds into my home made mold, only to realize that I had too much, so I needed to quickly clean and sanitize another one. Got the curds split into two smaller wheels and into the press.
I doubled the weight, to account for the doubled surface area, and headed down to the basement to find more plates for when I flipped it. Flipped it once, upped the weight. Flipped it again and put on all the weight and left it overnight.
Pulled it out in the morning; knit seemed pretty good. Made up a batch of 20%ish brine, and let it sit for about 10 hours, and then flipped it. 10 hours later (this morning before work) I pulled it out.
It's now sitting on my counter. I don't really know what a good caerphilly is supposed to look like at this point, but it feels like a cheese. It kind of looks like cheese. It smells like... well, um, curds? I don't know :o
Anyway, here's a link to some pictures. (I hope using links to imgur is ok. I kind of like the way they let you upload/organize photos).
http://imgur.com/a/2vqyK (http://imgur.com/a/2vqyK)
Stu, well done on your Caerphillies; a cheese to you. You may not have followed the recipe exactly but I expect the final result will still be good. No, you won't get a lot of odor from the cheese at this point; it will develop more as it ages, though still not as much as you might expect. (If you want a LOT of odor, add lipase!)
Some thoughts on the issues you describe, and your pictures:
First, I wonder if your double boiler is not giving you very much of a "buffer" for the heat -- it looks to me like just a thin jacket of water around the inner pot. By comparison, when I make cheese, I put my pot inside a *much* larger pot, so that the volume of water surrounding the inner pot is much larger. This makes it easier to heat things up very gently. You could get the same (or even more) of a buffer by using the sink -- add hot water from the tap and or from a kettle as needed to gradually raise the temps. (I have tried this, but the stoppers on my sink are unreliable ... and my wife seems to think the sink should be available for other uses!)
Another issue with the double boiler that you are using is that it doesn't give you any convenient way to keep track of the temperature of the water as well as of the milk. My experience is not all that extensive, but I quickly found that it was extremely helpful to have two thermometers, one measuring the milk, and one measuring the water around the pot. It is easy to get the water way hotter than the target temperature while the milk is still not changing much, only to have all that heat transfer into the milk and give you too much. Once I started using two thermometers, I have been much more successful in hitting my temperature/time targets.
I do think there is room for some variation in the temps, based on the variations I see in different recipes. That said, if you get too hot, you'll kill off the meso cultures.
In your pictures, it looks like you are using a very loose-weave type of cheesecloth -- the sort of thing that is often sold in a supermarket under that name. It may that the pictures are misleading, but if not, I would recommend getting some real cheesecloth, or some butter muslin.
Finally, a thought about the mold(s) -- it may be that you just have small molds to work with, but just a note in case you are using a 2 lb mold, i.e., one that should be big enough for a 2 gallon make. Sometimes, depending on the recipe, I find that I have to work with the curd a bit, maybe piling it up in a cone shape above the rim of the mold and then pressing down gently, before it all will fit into the mold. Sometimes I may fill the mold full before using all the curds, press down gently to make some room, fill it full again, press down gently, finally get all the curds in. Note that this is *not* about trying to stuff 3 lbs of curd into a 2 lb mold, or something like that -- the final press shows that the mold is plenty big enough, but initially there may be enough whey in the way (as it were) that it won't initially fit.
How long do you plan to age the Caerphillies? We'll be looking for a taste report in a few weeks ...
Thank you for the response (and the cheese!).
I've thought about using different pots as well. We have several large canning pots (I am not sure what exactly you would call them, they hold 7 quart sized jars for water bath canning). I could certainly use one of those with my 3 quart pot. I may give that a shot. Our sink has the same wife issues. :)
I'm certain that the temperature of the water in the boiler while it's over the heating element is getting warmer than my desired milk temps. I can touch the top of the pot, but if I slide my hand towards the bottom, it's very obvious that it's over 100f. That's why i've been pulling it off the element to rest. I guess it seems obvious that if it's that much warmer, even taking it off the element isn't going to immediately stop it from transferring most of that heat into the milk.
I don't believe I've come too close to reaching temperatures that would kill the meso, but I worry about taste/texture and more importantly repeatability. I want to try and do things as consistently as possible, so that I can recreate the same recipes (assuming they work out :D)
About molds... so, I'm new to cheese making, and I got impatient and made my own. I did my best to keep the dimensions close to a "small hard cheese mold" from NEC, but it's not exactly. Moreover the Caerphilly curds took up more space than my Wensleydale. I think I would have been able to fit them all into a single mold if I had tried, but I was worried about the shape of the cheese and how it would effect how the pressing went, how it aged, how it tasted, etc... So, I decided to use two smaller molds since I had the weight available. I should just break down and buy some actual molds, but I'm having so much fun making stuff today, I'm not sure that I'd wait until they arrived anyway!
I'm not 100% on how long I'll age it. I am curious if it makes any sense to wax it? I am a bit concerned about my "cave", it doesn't seem like it will be in there very long at all. However, I don't really have a great way to control the humidity (I have a decent temperature controller on the fridge, just nothing for humidity). I live in Utah, so 0% humidity is pretty regular. I suppose I could try waxing one and letting the other age on it's own (with a bowl of water in the fridge perhaps)...
I just don't know. So many different variables. I'm trying to keep track of everything (again) so I can repeat it all later.
Again! Thanks for the feedback! Hopefully I'll have some tasting reports in 3-4 weeks.
Hi Stu,
I use two pots as well, though for cheeses that require raising the temperature slowly over a period of time (where you raise from 32 to 38 degrees over 40 minutes type thing), I use the sink. I have a 13 and 17 L stock pot. I'll put two kettles of boiling water (1.7 L each) in the large pot and then 1 Litre of hot tap water. That will raise my milk from "out of the fridge" to around 30-32 C, provided I put the large pot on the stove as well. The cool milk cools down the hot pot while the hot pot warms the milk, until things reach equilibrium.
Anyway, once I've reached temperature, I take the the 13 L pot out of the warm water, sit it on a folded towel on the counter, then wrap the whole thing with a few tea towels and cover the top with a tea towel too. I can leave it like that to ripen, or let the rennet set, etc, and it holds the heat well, losing only a couple of degrees in the process. I'll then put the milk back in the warm pot if I need to bring the temperature back up after cutting, etc. This all works just fine for me.
Oh, if you have any questions about my notes please do ask and I'll do my best to clarify.
- Jeff
Your recipes are terrific. I didn't mean to take anything away from them. It's just that these books are designed for people who've never held a wooden spoon in their life. :)
I use a canning pot as my outside pot, and either a 12 quart or 16 quart pan for the inner. Despite the designations, these can comfortably make only 2 gallon or 3 gallon makes -- much larger would be chancy. The inner pots rest on their handles inside the canning pot, but I have to use a couple of large spoons in the handles of the smaller pot to make sure it can't slip and tilt. Jeff, I don't take mine out of the water, unless I have gotten the water too hot. Generally I can hit my temps just about right, ending up with the milk at the target temp and the water at or just a tiny bit over the target. I remove the thermometer from the milk and cover it, but can continue to monitor temp of the water, adding any heat if needed, but almost never need to during ripening or setting the curd; the thermal mass of that much liquid holds the heat pretty well, especially since ambient temperatures are usually only 10-15 degrees (F) different. However, when cheddaring, I may have to add a bit of heat from time to time to keep the water at the right temp, so that the curds in the inner pot stay at the right temp -- a lot less thermal mass once the whey is removed.
On the wax or no wax -- I've only made two Caerphillies, so again my experience is not exactly extensive! The first one I waxed after about 1 week, because I was going out of town and wanted to reduce the chance of mold problems for my daughter, who was in charge of turning the cheeses while I was gone. It only aged 4 weeks before cutting open, but I was quite pleased with the results. The second one is aging now, unwaxed, and I will plan to keep it that way. I have had to scrub off a bit of mold with some vinegar+salt.
No need to apologize for making your own molds! I've got one that I bought, and one (larger) that I made. What size did you make the mold - inside diameter and height? My 2-lb. mold (bought) is around 4.25" inner diameter and 5" tall. With a 2-gallon make, I wind up with a cheese that is almost as tall as it is wide -- which at first seems contrary to the flatter wheel shape that I associate with cheese, but works well in this small size to minimize the ratio of surface area to volume, and thus to minimize excessive drying.
I use a 5 gallon ceramic coated canner and a stainless 4 gallon stock pot inside as my double boiler unit , I do 3 or 4 gallon makes.
I find 4 gallon makes best , as the extra mass holds the heat well.
I have learned that when heating with 4 gallons , I have to turn the stove off (gas) when the milk temperature is 6 degrees below the desired temp,
The hot water will continue to heat the milk the rest of the way , with three gallons , the difference is almost 9 degrees due to more mass of water as compared to milk.
It's all about experimenting and learning to use what you have , it works spot on for me every time now , and unlike Jeff , I leave mine in the hot water jacket while acidifying , I find the extra mass holds the heat constant very well .
And it helps to have the same amount of water in the outer pot every time , to achieve this , I set the empty stainless pot inside the canner , and fill the canner with water , just until the inner pot starts to float , then I add the milk and heat , I get very consistent results every time.
Quote from: awakephd on June 27, 2014, 01:31:03 PM
What size did you make the mold - inside diameter and height?
I don't have them in front of me, but I want to say that it was just a hair under 5 inches in diameter. Probably a little bit taller (I haven't actually measured the height... just the diameter when I was cutting up some followers).
I've also made some flatter, wider molds that are just over 6 inches in diameter. I don't have followers for those ones yet. Haven't had a chance to make a trip to the hardwood store. It's kind of remarkable to me that a single inch difference in width produces nearly 50% more square inches. I suppose, I have a degree in math, it shouldn't be as amazing as it is :D
Quote from: awakephd on June 27, 2014, 01:31:03 PM
almost as tall as it is wide -- which at first seems contrary to the flatter wheel shape that I associate with cheese, but works well in this small size to minimize the ratio of surface area to volume, and thus to minimize excessive drying.
This was something I wasn't sure about. Was it more important to keep the shape similar so that they age the same or should I be more concerned about the middle drying out too much. I'm sure I'll be trying this cheese again. I'll try using a single, taller mold for that.
Quote from: jwalker on June 27, 2014, 03:10:41 PM
I have learned that when heating with 4 gallons , I have to turn the stove off (gas) when the milk temperature is 6 degrees below the desired temp,
...
It's all about experimenting and learning to use what you have , it works spot on for me every time now , and unlike Jeff , I leave mine in the hot water jacket while acidifying , I find the extra mass holds the heat constant very well .
And it helps to have the same amount of water in the outer pot every time , to achieve this , I set the empty stainless pot inside the canner , and fill the canner with water , just until the inner pot starts to float , then I add the milk and heat , I get very consistent results every time.
This is exactly the sort of thing that I'm trying to figure out. I understand that there isn't one way to do it. We all have slightly different setups (or in some cases, EXTREMELY different). Hearing the little tricks and techniques that you use help me to know what I might look for in my kitchen.
Thanks for the feedback :D
I put my 20l pot in the kitchen sink. The hot water from the tap can be adjusted up to 45 degrees C, but by the time it's warmed up 16l of milk from the fridge it's a good bit cooler and I adjust the temperature upwards again by scooping out water a panful at a time, heating it on the gas and then pouring it back into the sink. It makes it possible to raise the temperature slowly and gently. I have a digital thermometer in the milk and a bath thermometer floating in the sink to keep an eye on the temperatures. It works pretty well, and the mass of water keeps the temperature of the milk constant while it's sitting.
I don't have to worry about anyone wanting to muscle in on the kitchen sink since I'm the one with wife rights ;) and TLOML has learned to keep out of the kitchen and keep the critters out too when cheese-making is happening.
Moulds - for smaller cheeses, I use nut tins (TLOML gets through a fair few nuts) with the top and bottom cut out. For larger (16l) cheeses, I use the perforated inner pot of my pasta boiler. At around 20cm (7.8 inches?) diameter it could ideally be a bit smaller, but it was there and I'm all for getting maximum use out of what you've already got, and making utensils do more than one job. I've been on the lookout for a smaller pasta pot, but haven't found one yet.
Denise, great idea on using the pasta pot! I've been mulling over the possibilities for a larger mold, with the idea that I might make a larger cheese in two batches.
Stu, it sounds like you are using hardwood for followers. What kind? I was reluctant to use the oak, walnut, or cherry that I have on hand, in case they might transfer unwanted flavors to the cheese (especially the oak). Somewhere I read that beech is ideal for food-related uses, not having imparting any flavors. I've wondered if maple might work as well.
For my home-made mold, I bought a couple of inexpensive plastic cutting boards from Walmart, a couple of bucks apiece, and cut the followers out of them. They have worked surprisingly well.
They are made out of a beech plywood. It was just some scrap that I found in my father's wood shop, I'm not sure where it came from.
I just finished it with some mineral oil.
Quote from: Stu on June 27, 2014, 12:53:09 PM
Your recipes are terrific. I didn't mean to take anything away from them. It's just that these books are designed for people who've never held a wooden spoon in their life. :)
Thanks! But if there are steps that are unclear, I would like to know. I would like these to be accessible to those first starting and having people who are just starting point out where I'm not being as clear as I think I am is very helpful. Although I also want them fairly paired down and don't explain things like floc in each individual protocol since that information can be found throughout the board, so it is a balancing act.
It's stuff like what floc means (though, that's not covered in any of the books I've found at the library), or how I should handle the rennet (up/down motion, how long to stir, etc), what size/type of mold I should be using (though, in my case that didn't matter so much as I only had one mold to choose from :D), and which cultures I should use based on what I have.
These aren't things that I think you need to add to your recipes though. I just think they are picked up along the way. (For what it's worth, I was looking at your 4th Caerphilly recipe... I just noticed that there is a post for your 11th? Looking at it, maybe I should have gone with that one)
Ah, thanks Stu. I've started indicating what size mould I used in more recent makes, and can indicate things like stirring the rennet (usually 30 seconds up/down motion). Cultures are not my specialty really as I have so few to work with. One can make decent versions of many cheeses with either buttermilk or yogurt depending upon whether it is a mesophillic or thermophillic cheese, respectively. I'll see what I can do about adding a few extra details along those lines. Floc method is something to search the board for (I should include that as a note, perhaps?)
Anyway, thanks for letting me know what sort of things would be helpful to include!
- Jeff
So, I was flipping these guys over (waxed and in the mini fridge at 12.7c), and I noticed some dark spots under the wax on one of them. I cut it open and sure enough, there were little specs of blueish green just starting up.
I assume these are bad news, right?
They've only been in the fridge for about a week so not really long enough to mature. They taste a bit like mozzarella (but I was just nibbling on the rind that I was cutting around the blue). I'm thinking I'll just wash it with some vinegar salt water and stick it in the fridge sans wax and see what happens. Should I be doing something else?
Nah, mould on the rind is normal, and in the end, cheddar types are better when they get a coating of mould on the outside (just brush it back every few days). Personally, I find waxing a cheese before a month or two problematic because of whey retention (the cheese gets wet under the wax, and that will ferment). Just cut the rind off when you eat the cheese (wild rinds are rarely tasty in a good way, but they do help deepen the flavour of the interior paste).
But, if you want to keep the wax coating, then it is probably best to just scrap the surface clean, and reheat the wax hot enough so it kills any surface bacteria. That should, in theory, help prevent mould. Wiping with vinegar and sal adds moisture to the surface, and you want that dry before waxing, which just leaves it exposed to get re-contaminated anyway.
- Jeff
Thanks for the response.
Based on that I think I'm going to just set it in the fridge as is, and see what happens :)
I'll leave the other one waxed for now, just to see how the taste/texture differs.
So, I've got more moldy friends showing up, and I don't know if this is normal.
(http://imgur.com/ZZtn2Hf.jpg)
It smells rather strongly of moldy bread.
If it's normal, then I'll stop pestering the board and just wait it out. If it's concerning for this cheese, is there much I can do? Should I be concerned about other cheeses in the fridge? I've got a Wensleydale that's been waxed, and a havarti that I just added today (a writeup to come in the next few days), that's doing the "flip every day for a month, then wax" dance.
Is this ok? Or should I do something?
that isn't scary? check out my recent cheddar (https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,12743.msg99303.html#msg99303), now thats scary :o
it is only 9 weeks old, I have been brushing it back about once a week,
It is kind of musty smelling yet not in a bad way, very interesting smell.
I like it 8)
That is a bit unnerving :D
Probably my biggest fear is that my wife is going to make me move the mini-fridge, due to the smell (when I open the door to flip cheeses, closed it smells just fine)
Hi Stu,
Just get a soft bristle nail brush and brush it off. The rind will harden, and discolour, but the inside paste will be fine.
- Jeff
I tend to be a bit verbose but here is my Caerphilly make - There is a description of the 'Floc' method as well - hope that helps some.
https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,10375.0.html (https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,10375.0.html)
Cheers
-Mal
Stu, I had the same experiences regarding the mold.
I was totally shocked when mould appeared on my first cheese. I immediately wondered what I'd done wrong. Using a Mad Millie instruction book, or 200 Easy Cheeses, there was never any mention of molds appearing during the drying/aging process.
From this website, and mainly Jeff Hamm, my mind was set at rest, that this was perfectly normal.
Most cheese book authors don't seem touch on this subject, similarly they seem to be very vague on aging.
Rizzo, for some of us, it is aging that makes us rather vague ... what were we talking about, again?
hahahaha....very good. ;D
Could anyone advise on a good floc factor for Caerphilly? I have seen a factor of both 3 and 4 stated in various recipes. There must be quite a difference here? thanks
Don't laugh - I use 3.5 :o
Not laughing at all...sounds perfect ! :D
One of the biggest humps to hurdle over for a new cheesemaker is to not get worried about molds. After 5 years of making cheese, I still haven't jumped over that one. lol. That's why I'm a huge cream coat fan. I don't get the cool rustic results like Jeffhamm does, but when I'll get a bigger cheese cave, I'm planning to get starting on natural rinds.
Nice cheese BTW, AC4Y!
I've seen people talking about cream coating cheese, but I haven't seen (or really searched) for what they mean. Since we're talking about it, could you explain what exactly you are doing?
What sort of cream are we talking about?
When are you putting it on?
What sort of prep are you doing before you put it on? (or is cheese specific?)
Do you have a maybe have a link to a bigger discussion?
Thanks :D
It's basically liquid plastic that has a mould inhibitor. It hardens after a few hours. You apply 2-3 coats. It's not air-tight, so the cheese still develops a rind underneath, but it does slow down drying considerably. I'm a huge fan because it's low maintenance. Some peeps here prefer the traditional way. So it's all a matter of preference.
I included a pic while I was applying coating with a sponge. I have since been using a natural bristle brush because the sponge wastes too much coating. The cheap plastic kitchen brushes are horrible for this task.
The cream coating comes in a few colours. Black, yellow, clear and red. You can see one of my goudas in my avatar with a yellow coating (it comes out orange).
Most cheesemaking suppliers have them. Here's one example:
http://www.glengarrycheesemaking.on.ca/wax-and-coating/cheese-coating/cheese-coating-from-csk-holland/ (http://www.glengarrycheesemaking.on.ca/wax-and-coating/cheese-coating/cheese-coating-from-csk-holland/)
Quote from: Stu on July 25, 2014, 08:57:02 PM
I've seen people talking about cream coating cheese, but I haven't seen (or really searched) for what they mean. Since we're talking about it, could you explain what exactly you are doing?
What sort of cream are we talking about?
When are you putting it on?
What sort of prep are you doing before you put it on? (or is cheese specific?)
Do you have a maybe have a link to a bigger discussion?
Thanks :D
Check this (https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,11295.msg88726.html#msg88726).
-Boofer-
Awesome information. Thank you!
So, it's been 4 weeks since I made this, and the mold kept getting fuzzier. It also seems that my cheese fridge is too dry (something I've worried about), and the rind started to crack. These cheeses aren't very tall, so I was concerned that if I let it go, it would just mold all the way through. So yesterday we opened it up.
After cutting around the mold, I have (what I think is) a decent cheese. It's salty and a little bit chewy/crumbly. It's hard to explain. It's not too sharp, but certainly a lot more flavor than my Wensleydale from a week ago. All in all, I'm pleased for my second try.
I do still have one under wax that I'm going to let keep aging. It will probably stay in the fridge until I run out of room. That means another 2-3 cheeses. Which leads me to my next conundrum... what should I try next. :D
Stu, have you tried a Lancashire? If not, I highly recommend it -- not a hard make, and it matures in 6 weeks (or longer, but I haven't yet been able to hold out any longer than that). I have been using the recipe reported by MrsKK, which is basically the recipe in 200 Easy Cheeses, but without letting the curds rest overnight before pressing.
I've actually had Lancashire. It was one that I was thinking of trying to make, and one of the stores here carries (or carried? I haven't looked recently) it.
To be honest, the taste was a little boring :D That could be the manufacturer though. But, I guess it's a young cheese, there isn't much time to develop interesting flavors.
After looking around the forums, I was strongly considering making a Jack (something that ages in the order of weeks, not months). But, I might try my hand at Lancashire after. If I do that, I should have a couple different things coming of age in the same time-frame.
Hmm ... the two Lanc's that I have made and eaten thus far have not been boring at all. Not sharp like an aged cheddar, but still quite a lot of flavor for such a short-aged cheese -- certainly as much flavor as the Caerphilly's I've made.
I have another Lanc in the cave now ... maybe I can hold out long enough to see how it tastes when it gets really aged, like 8 weeks instead of 6. :)
Sorry, I just meant "boring" in regards to other, longer aged, cheeses. I could make more short aged cheeses (and probably should), but parts of me want to make something that will be stuck in the fridge for 12 months :D
Stu, I can sympathise with you regarding the Lancashire.
There seem to be a few store bought cheeses, and cheesemaking recipes that masquerade as Lancashire.
I made one to the 200 Easy cheeses recipe, and whereas it was a success, and a pleasantly tasting cheese, it was nothing like a REAL Lancashire. More like a regular Cheddar.
In my humble experience, living in Yorkshire for 1/2 my life, (adjacent county to Lancashire), I would eat Lancashire cheese regularly.
A proper Lancashire should be crumbly, moist, and with a lovely sharp edge to it. I understand that you have to use 3 days worth of curds to get 'this taste' into your make.
Quote from: Stu on July 29, 2014, 09:49:14 PM
something that will be stuck in the fridge for 12 months :D
I don't look at it as being "stuck" in the cave...rather that the cheese is fortunate enough to luxuriate in the climate-controlled environment that helps it to achieve its delightful character and palate-pleasing nuance. ;)
-Boofer-
ah Boofer...such poetry. A cheese for your prose!