Hi all,
I've been reading through the forum postings for quite a while now and have learnt a great deal from your many postings. I'm from Melbourne, Australia and have only recently taken up cheesemaking.
Recently I injured my hands, so have limited use but a lot of spare time being unable to work full-time. I'm able to get some good distraction therapy by making cheese and it is keeping me going at the moment. So far I've made a couple of batches of triple cream brie, a Caerphilly (I have another week to wait until I can try it out) and recently a blue cheese. I've been making my cheeses with the Mad Millie ingredients, but hope to build up on what I have. The second brie turned out excellent and I enjoy watching the cheese mature daily. I will make another soon.
Equipment wise I've setup a cheese cave with a huge old fridge/freezer that I was about to throw out. I've set it up with external temperature control, plus humidity control is half there. I've also set myself up for temperature controlled hot plate. My background is computer programming with the bulk of it in machine control, so I enjoy that aspect. I'm trying to optimise my processes at the moment. I've also made a cheese press which I'm not quite happy with yet. It still needs some work.
Does anyone have suggestions on cheeses that don't require a lot of hand work (mixing/stretching/kneading)?
Nice to meet you all.
Shane
Hi Shane
It's godd to be able to welcome another antipodean. The numbers are growing rapidly.
Today the cheese forum, tomorrow the world...mwaaahahahahahaha!
Greetings from Denmark... :-)
Thanks Guys. Nice to meet you too. Yep, world domination time approaches. ;)
Shane
G'day, cobber!
How about some simple cream cheeses (you could do it with the same mesophilic culture you do for caerphilly).
I'm from Lalor in Melbourne's north :)
Hi Tim,
Nice to meet you. I'm from down in Hampton park (Originally from Gippsland though), but I used to know Lalor well from my uni days. Haven't been there for a while though. Thanks for the suggestion on cream cheese. Sounds interesting. I forgot to say that I've also been making quark for a while. My wife is German and it is difficult to get quark in a decent quantity, texture or price.
All the best.
Shane
Quark! A couple of organic stores sell tubs of the stuff now. Not much, little 300 ml pots. You can get them at CERES organic park, I think.
Just thought cream cheese would be an easy on your hands type, and the results are very satisfying - spreadable and sweet, great with toast in the morning or with sweets. If you're making caerphilly it sounds like stirring the curds/cutting the curds etc isn't too much of a bother, so stuff like cheddar - slightly more complicated, and takes a few months to mature - could be worthwhile. Mind you I make my cheddars in autumn and winter so I can give them ages to, well, age.
Haloumi is also relatively easy and satisfying, though a certain amount of stirring and cutting is obviously involved. :)
We need a cheesemaking club here in Melbourne, I reckon! Where do you get your supplies from? I go to organic stores in Northcote and Thornbury, and some of the stores like Home Make It/Cellar Plus around here that specialise in stuff like home-made beer, cider, cheese, salami, etc.
Yeah, there are a few different brands of quark around, but there is only one brand that was really of the style that my wife is after. She likes it a little thicker than the consistency of Greek yoghurt. There is one brand we have found locally but it is very expensive and not always available. It is very cheap and easy to make. I usually get around 800g from 2L of cheap milk, plus cultured buttermilk as the starter.
Cream cheese does sound like a good choice for now. One thing I never mentioned in my intro is that I'm actually lactose intolerant. It sucks when you love dairy so much. Some of my cheese I will give away to friends and family, but I will still try as much as I can tolerate.
On my hands, they are not totally unusable. My right hand has nerve damage that caused CRPS from botched surgery and my left hand has carpal tunnel syndrome (what I had in my right hand before surgery). I am able to do a lot of things, but gripping is difficult and repetitive tasks such as mixing for extended periods of time are a problem. I was okay with the Caerphilly recipe as I was only stirring every five minutes or so to prevent matting of the curds. I was able to break up the curds with my hands and those kinds of activities are actually good for me. I am trying to desensitise my right hand from all of the symptoms that are going on in my hand. I have seen recipes which call for stirring for 30+ minutes and that is just not possible for me.
Cheddar is certainly what I plan on making and I hope to get there soon. Cutting the curds is not a problem for me at this stage. I need to get some more cultures first though as I'm about to run out. I have been buying the Mad Millie ingredients from a local baking supply store, but also online. I'm not able to drive at the moment, so I can't get anything on the spur of the moment right now. I have been practicing with the cheap supermarket milk until I get some experience. I hope to order some bits and pieces from the cheeselinks online store soon.
I'll have to read up on halloumi. It is yum. I hadn't really thought of trying. Thanks for the suggestion.
Tomorrow I hope to make another double cream brie which will hopefully be ready by Christmas. After that I'll be out of starter culture I think.
Yeah, a club sounds like a good idea. I don't have a feel for how many home cheesemakers there are around Melbourne.
All the best and keep the suggestions coming. :D
Shane
I've used products from a couple of online suppliers. Cheesemaking.com have been very good:
http://www.cheesemaking.com.au/ (http://www.cheesemaking.com.au/)
I have also purchased from Country Brewer and been very satisfied:
http://www.countrybrewer.com.au/categories/Cheese-Making/ (http://www.countrybrewer.com.au/categories/Cheese-Making/)
Thanks for that. I'll check them out. There are a truck load of things I want to buy, but I'll need to be patient.
Shane
We have a long life culture - haven't had to buy any new culture for up to two years! It's just sold as a yoghurt from Cultures for Health so maybe it's not an ideal one for cheeses, but it's basically the same bacteria at work. And I just took a whiff off my six month old cheddar....pungent and powerful. So it seems to be doing the job :)
I think the aged cheeses will be good for lactose intolerance actually. The bacteria over time converts most of the lactose into lactic acid. Most cheese would be good I'm sure, but obviously you'll know more about the condition than me O0
Try a few of the goat milk cheeses. Fetta is very quick - 4 or so days from ageing to when you can eat it. Chevre is easy and delicious - goat milk in a bowl at room temperature (25 degrees) for a day, then when the curds have shrunk from the sides of the bowl the whole is poured into a bag and left to drain.
Thanks. That sounds good about the culture. I'll have to check out the health food store when I'm next able to get to one. I was just reading the wiki about making cultured buttermilk mesophillic starter. I'm going to walk to the supermarketshortly, so I'll grab some buttermilk and give it a try. That will give me a chance to experiment with the next cheese.
Yeah, I think you are spot on with the aged cheeses and lactose intolerance. I certainly hope to make some aged cheddar and parmesan. I actually wonder how I'd go making cheese out of lactose free non UP milk. It seems to work fine with quark. Would it not work for hard cheese or does it need the lactose to help things grow?
Yep, feta is on the list. I do have some lipase too, so maybe it is worth a try. Yep, goats cheese sounds good. Are the 1L cartons from the supermarket any good, or do I need to look elsewhere for it?
I'm in the process of making another batch of brie at the moment and the steps are starting to become a bit more natural, so we'll see how I go.
All the best for the rest of your weekend.
Shane
Don't think you'll find long-life cultures at the health food store (though if you do, let me know!) I wouldn't think lactose free milk would be very good (how on earth do they remove it?) - not so much because the bacteria wouldn't have anything to work with (it's by its nature pretty adaptable - it's got to be), but just because of the general rule of thumb: "the more removed a milk is from its natural state the worse it will be for culturing".
Yes to 1 L goat milk cartons from the shops. I've made cheese successfully from the Paul's brand (by far the most common). About 2 L will make you a nice batch of chevre....
Send us an email anyway, at timhtrain - at - yahoo.com.au. I'd be happy to share the joy with our long life culture - it's a mesophilic one that I've made cheddar, caerphilly, chevre, Wensleydale, Jack, cream cheese, and a whole bunch of other cheeses with :D Could hand some over next time I'm in your part of town.
Hi Shane,
Welcome to forum -- I get my supplies from here. Mad Millies stuff is Ok - but a bit expensive.
http://www.greenlivingaustralia.com.au/cheesemaking_ingredients_cultures.html (http://www.greenlivingaustralia.com.au/cheesemaking_ingredients_cultures.html)
There is a product called Lactaid you can get from the chemist - it adds the enzymes back into the milk that your body has forgotten to make so it can help you digest Lactose. Add it to you milk about 24 hours before you make cheese. And then make hard cheese that you age out 6-12 months. There should be almost no lactose left in the cheese by then. Cheddars, Manchego, Parmesan and Gruyere , quite few others. I'm sorry if I'm going over things you have already researched.
-- Mal
Thanks Tim and Mal.
The lactose free non UP milk is pretty much as Mal described. It is normal milk that has had the lactase enzyme added to it in order to convert the lactose into glucose and galactose. I have up on the lactase tablets. They are just too expensive for the amount of them you'd need to take to get the desired result. While in Germany a couple of times we've bought them there. They are a fraction of the price we pay here. I guess my concern with removing the lactase is that maybe the cultures can't do their thing, but it sounds like this may not be the case by what you are saying. I'll have to give it a go and see.
Tim - thanks for the offer on the culture. I'll leave it for the moment. I need to have some surgery shortly to try and improve my situation and may be out of action from cheese making for a little while. I'll let you know when I'm ready to go though. So is the culture you talk about a liquid or powder? If it's a liquid do you have to feed it at all? I make no knead rye sourdough also which I need to feed to keep the sourdough alive and happy.
I'll have to give the goats cheese a try next time. Sounds dead easy on my hands.
How do you guys go making cheese in summer?
All the best.
Shane
I don't mind making cheese in Summer as it help keep the milk at a constant Temperature without reapplying heat. I have a converted Wine fridge to age my cheeses in which keeps about 10-12 degC. A warmer period while the cheese is drying out also seems to help the rind and pH development.
-- Mal
That's good to know. My cave (a repurposed 360L fridge) is set to 12°C. I'm waiting on an ultrasonic fogger to arrive in the post so that I can sort out the humidity. All of my cheeses are in plastic boxes until I can sort the humidity side of things out. The controller is sitting there waiting to drive something.
Thanks for your help guys.
Shane
Shane, my culture is a yoghurt. We just eat it during the week and add milk to it when most of it has gone, in a fresh jar to minimise risk of infection. Keep it out at room temp for around 18-24 hours and Bob's your uncle - yoghurt! We usually keep some stray blocks of it in the freezer in case something terrible happens and the jar gets stolen or gets a terrible infection from an unknown source, or whatever. The initial instructions said reculture once every seven days.
There was one near disaster when my wife went to pour some of it in a stew and the whole lot poured out! Instead of salvaging the messed up yoghurt from the stew, we decided to try to reculture from the stuff that was clinging to the sides. We added a small amount of milk and voila, in a day the bacteria remaining in the jar/on the curds clinging to the sides was enough to give us a new pot of yoghurt. Brilliant.
It came initially as a powder from Cultures for Health and we may still have a sachet of it lying around, but it's been so long - about two years - that the spores in the powder may have died! So we just hand out pots of yoghurt to those interested - we gave some to our friend Kim in Heidleberg who has had great success with making yoghurt at home. I think she's also made labneh from it (hang the yoghurt up to drain and dry until it has a creamy/cheesy consistency).
I've speculated too that the warmer ambient temps would be good for making cheeses like cheddar, etc - especially since in the past I've had difficulty getting cheddar curds to knit because the ambient temp hasn't been warm enough. But then the summer temps can play havoc with ageing cheeses and I just keep my cheeses out at room temp. (I am not at all showing them off to visitors. Not. At. All...) Anyway, I don't have a cheese cave either so now is not a good time for me to begin cheeses like cheddars, etc. So in summer, I concentrate on the cream cheeses, ricotta, chevre, the occasional fetta, etc. Haloumi and mozzarella are both great summer cheeses (I reckon haloumi would probably be somewhat easier on your hands because of the weird 'kneading' that goes on in the mozzarella recipe).
And try a Crescenza cheese. They're lovely and simple - milk, curdled, then brined for a few hours to give them salty flavour. You can keep the brine cool by reserving some of it in the freezer and refreshing the brine bath for the cheese when you flip it. Great fresh or on pizza.
Thanks Tim. That sounds very similar to my sourdough starter. I use probably 3/4's of it and then top it up with fresh flour and water. I share my starter around also. It took a few goes to get it working properly. It is pretty much bomb proof now. Like you I've accidentally taken too much out, but the little remnants were enough to keep it going. It's pretty impressive how robust some of these little bugs are.
I have the buttermilk out at the moment trying to make the culture grow. I'll try it out on Tuesday when I hope to make a cheddar.
Today (in 34°C weather) I did make a double cream brie and it is shaping up alright despite my impatience. I don't have a proper mould yet (i do have a couple of camembert moulds, but the bigger round of cheese is more impressive in my opinion :D), so until then I have a modified food grade bucket with many drilled through it. It is 18cm diameter and due to that and the height, it is rather difficult to flip. I actually have a second bucket that I use to insert and flip over onto. Today I was attempting to flip the cheese far too early. I eventually got there, but made a hell of a lot of mess in the process. It started as 4L of milk, plus 600ml of cream. My last brie ended up at 800+g.
What cream do you guys buy here? There don't appear to be many options without gelatine in them. The first brie I made I did find pure cream, but the last time I have used thickened cream. They do seem to have worked, although they are obviously not vegetarian (not that it matters here).
That is interesting about the warm weather being better for getting a better knit. I thought things may have been worse. I did have the air conditioner running today, but that was more for my comfort. ;D
Yeah it sounds like halloumi would be easier for me. I also have problems with hot and cold in contact with my right hand, so working with the hot mozzarella might be problematic. The nerve pain really screws around with the sensations that it comes into contact with.
I'll have to read up on crescenza cheese, it sounds interesting. We made pizza for dinner tonight and it would have been great to put homemade cheese on it.
I only have a cheese cave out of good timing. I was about to put it out for hard rubbish collection. The fridge freezer is a very big upside down one (519L total). As our fridge it kept freezing up, but the defrost cycle couldn't defrost the ice where it would accumulate. We ended up replacing the fridge. When I thought about a cheese cave I read that it wasn't suggested to use a fridge with a separate freezer. I thought I'd give it a go anyway as i didn't really have much to lose. I have an RTD controlling the temperature of the fridge by driving the compressor via the control line on the freezer control board. The temperature control is generally 12°C +/- 1°C. There is something going on where once a day I find the temperature briefly at 14°C. I think what is going on is that during the defrost cycle (I have the element disconnected as it doesn't generally freeze up under these conditions) is that it turns off the fan between the fridge and freezer. I will need to look at having this permanently powered separately but I can't do that right now. In the freezer I also have a 20L bottle of water to provide some thermal mass. The bottle stays mostly frozen in the centre with water around the outside. The kids also use the freezer as a pre cooler for water icypoles when there is not enough freezer space. It doesn't take very long the freezer them solid when they transfer them over. :D So far the compressor doesn't appear to be too unhappy. It stays on for a reasonable amount of time during a cooling cycle and is off for at least an hour for each cycle. I think this is the main concern. Overnight I don't think it cycles at all.
Anyway I've been rabbiting on a bit, so better be off to check the cheese.
Thanks for your help.
Shane
The cream issue is a real tough one, I hate using stuff with additives and really, they're just there so the manufacturer can give you a more standardised product. One of the things I like about cream is how unstandard it is.
Basically there's a double cream you can get in the supermarkets (usually Woolies) from, I think, Gippsland; Coles in-store cream doesn't have any additives; at some organic stores you might be able to buy some 'pure' creams from Meredith dairy and.... that's about it I think. Really annoying. I don't want those additives mucking around with my cheese. If I want to add stuff, I'll add it.
Thanks Tim. The first time I made brie I managed to find a 600ml carton of pure cream, but haven't seen them since. With the double cream do you dilute it with milk to get the right fat content for the cheese recipe?
Shane
No idea! I guess you just have to do what seems right to you.
Probably best to bear in mind that in its natural state, milk isn't really standard anyway - it will vary greatly over time, depending on when it was taken from the cow (just after gestation, first milking of the day, etc). Now considering that milk manufacturers usually just remove the cream prior to homogenising the lot, it's probably wise to add cream back. A lot of old cheese recipes include terms like 'stroakings' - ie the richer, creamier, last few pints of milk drawn from the cow.
Thanks Tim. I found this on Wikipedia. Looks like there is quite a range on each type of cream.
QuoteIn Australia, the levels of fat in cream are not regulated, therefore labels are only under the control of the manufacturers. A general guideline is as follows:
Extra light (or 'lite'): 12–12.5% fat.
Light (or 'lite'): 18–20% fat.
Pure cream: 35–56% fat, without artificial thickeners.
Thickened cream: 35–36.5% fat, with added gelatine and/or other thickeners to give the cream a creamier texture, also possibly with stabilisers to aid the consistency of whipped cream (this would be the cream to use for whipped cream, not necessarily for cooking)
Single cream: Recipes calling for 'single cream' are referring to pure or thickened cream with about 35% fat.
Double cream: 48–60% fat.[4]
Shane
HI,
I use Paul's Pure Cream @ 35% fat if I'm makeing Camemberts I use 1 600 mls to 8 litres of Melany 3.9% fat unhomoginised milk. I add 125 mls to 10 litres to my cheddars. Not sure what that is in percentage but they taste gooood 8). I don't know the Maths to equalise that out but it's cheese - not rocket science.
-- Mal
Thanks Mal. I wish your message had come in an hour earlier. I'm attempting a cheddar now, but without the cream that you mentioned. The milk is presently ripening. Oh well, I will remember for the next one.
Shane
Quote from: OzzieCheese on December 02, 2014, 02:25:19 AM
I use Paul's Pure Cream @ 35% fat if I'm makeing Camemberts I use 1 600 mls to 8 litres of Melany 3.9% fat unhomoginised milk. I add 125 mls to 10 litres to my cheddars.
According to my calculations that works out at about 6% for the camemberts and 4.3% for the cheddar.
For what it's worth I use Jersey milk for my camemberts at 4.8%. I share the concerns expressed elsewhere in this thread about the how difficult it is to find cream without additives which is one of the reasons that I haven't used cream in any of my cheeses yet.
How do you come across Jersey milk Andrew? I'm guessing not from your standard supermarket? I think Paul's Pure cream is what I used for my first batch of brie, but I haven't seen it on the shelf since.
Yesterday I tried the buttermilk mesophillic culture and the cheese seemed to come out okay. It is still in the mould, so won't know how it has come together until tomorrow morning. Hands wise the cheddar make was fine. The only time I had any difficulty was handling a stock pot full of 8L of milk. I got there in the end though and very happy for it.
The brie I made and have to a colleague at work appears top have gone down a hit at my work. It was shared around and all rave about it and want more. I'll have to get some photos on here.
Thanks for all your help.
Shane
We have a 'Morning Tea' every couple of week so I get to show off a little and the reaction is the same - they love any cheese I bring in. One collegue has even stopped buying store bought Cheese if I'm bringing in one - a bit of self promotion , probably, but the store bought one just goes to waste and mine just disappears - especially the Cams. There is nothing wrong with the Store bought stuff (nor anything really special about my efforts) but people have become accustomed to bland tasteless rubbery stuff that when a real one comes along, they just go nuts. We've become too far removed from our food sources.
Off the soap box ...
Jersey Milk -oooohh I'm going weak at the knees...
There's a brand of Jersey milk I pick up occasionally at The Fruit Peddlers on High Street, Northcote. It's delicious, super-creamy. I forget the manufacturer, sorry. The best, of course, is raw milk - I think it's Jersey raw milk. It tastes amazing. Interestingly it seems to last longer than the pasteurised version (which seems to be very variable quality - when buying these milks it's best to keep an eye on the use-by-date).
Some friends in Warburton get Jersey milk from a friend with a cow and they tell me it's one-half cream! (Drools in manner of Homer).
Damn !!! not fair :o and raw as well !
I know! One reason why you should never trust milk you get from the shops - the taste of practically every Australian adult who drinks/uses milk was developed during our childhood when the only stuff you could get was a homogenised variety from Devondale or some other big dairy - so we're used to a much lower cream content than you'd get naturally because, of course, the big producers just skim cream off the top and homogenise the rest so you have no way of judging by the cream line (unlike earlier generations).
I have and uncle and aunt who recently gave up dairy farming. When I was young I can't ever recall them putting milk in the fridge. I think they filled up a huge Tupperware jug with milk from the vat and it would stay out on the bench all day. Presumably they feed whatever was leftover to the dogs and would refill in the morning.
Oh and I don't think they ever liked jerseys much. They were okay with the cows, but said the bulls were mental.
Shane
Quote from: Shane on December 03, 2014, 02:29:01 AM
How do you come across Jersey milk Andrew? I'm guessing not from your standard supermarket?
As a matter of fact I do get it from the supermarket. Our local Foodland stocks Fleurieu Milk Company Jersey milk - pasteurised but not homogenised. A bit more expensive than most but it really is the duck's guts (apart, perhaps, from raw which I haven't had the pleasure of using). I don't know if there are small milk companies elsewhere in Australia which produce something similar.
Thanks Andrew. Your posting made me do a bit of googling and it looks like there are a few different brands of Jersey milk available in melbourne. When I'm a bit more confident I'll look at them closer.
Shane
If it helps anyone, Aldi's 300ml tubs of double cream have no additives. Minimum 51% fat.
Shane
As long as it is not Ultra Pasturised. If it is I would be cautious about adding it to any long term projects. Cams and the like would be ok but a nice blue destined for long term maturing I wouldn't.
--Mal
Strangely it doesn't even say on the tub if it has been pasteurized, let alone ultra pasteurized. Is that not a requirement? Apparently it has won awards though.
https://www.aldi.com.au/en/groceries/awards/dairy/dairy-detail/ps/p/farmdale-double-cream-300ml-1/ (https://www.aldi.com.au/en/groceries/awards/dairy/dairy-detail/ps/p/farmdale-double-cream-300ml-1/)
The cream is for a small batch of brie. Hopefully it will be okay.
Shane
It's got my Vote... I'll try some in my next 'Malemberts'
I think I'll give the Aldi cream a try - I'm considering a Blue - something that ripens reasonably quickly 3-4 months. Never done a blue so the results are going to be very interesting.
Any suggestions ?
--Mal
I did a very small blue from the mad millie specialty cheese recipe book. It was only 2L of milk, plus cream. I felt I had nothing to lose by trying. Below is a photo. It is nearly 3 weeks old.
Shane
I think I've found a source of non homogenised milk in Victoria. Jonesy's Dairy Fresh sell 2L bottles and 10L bladders of non homogenised milk. I've found a couple of resellers of their products in Dandenong. There looks to be quite a few resellers throughout Victoria and New South Wales.
I'm yet to buy any, so I have no idea how good it is.
Hopefully that may help someone else.
Shane