I need to make cheese in a little bigger fashion, but I don't have enough milk to buy the big equipment. My question is, would it be safe to use a stainless steel brewing kettle to make cheese in, or is there some reason it won't work? Also, what kind of burner would I use for a nearly 20" wide pot? Here is the kettle I was thinking of getting: http://morebeer.com/products/26-gallon-stainless-brew-kettle-heavy-duty.html (http://morebeer.com/products/26-gallon-stainless-brew-kettle-heavy-duty.html)
and here's the burner: http://morebeer.com/products/camp-chef-burner-60000-btu.html (http://morebeer.com/products/camp-chef-burner-60000-btu.html)
Has anyone tried this? I would appreciate any comments!
Hi Jennifer (love the name of your farm - reminds me of the Eurythmics song "Sweet Leaves are made of these" :)). I haven't heard any reason not to use a brew kettle for cheese making, and I've even thought about trying a smaller version of your's from Bayou Classic. They do tend to have a tall aspect ratio but I would think there are curd cutters out there that could handle that. Maybe others on the forum can advise (and I'm curious if there is a good method to adapt the spigot for draining whey). As for the burner if I were you I'd contact More Beer directly to get their advice to make sure the burner is sized for the kettle. Good luck!
I'm a member of a brewing forum as well and one of the members there mentioned he does just that with his kettle.
Thanks guys! Next year we should have around 10 gallons of milk a day, which isn't enough to pay for the legal equipment, but way too much for my little 5 gallon pots. I have a 24" long curd cutter, so it should reach the bottom of the pot. I think I'll have to scoop the whey off the top of the pot, but the valve should help drain the wash water. I've tried to find a burner that will support 200 pounds of kettle and liquid and still be finely adjustable. Most of them only have maximum BTU's and don't talk about how adjustable they are. I would much rather have an induction burner, but none of them have a weight rating. Anyone have an idea about a burner?
You could make a wooden or aluminium frame to support the vessel just above an induction cooker, depending on what size the cooker was.
If I did go with an induction cooker, I was thinking I could sweet talk my Dad into making a frame to hold this: http://www.amazon.com/Mr-Induction-SR-183R-Commercial-1800-watt/dp/B00FFM4824/ref=sr_1_16?s=home-garden&ie=UTF8&qid=1417361522&sr=1-16&keywords=built-in+induction+burner (http://www.amazon.com/Mr-Induction-SR-183R-Commercial-1800-watt/dp/B00FFM4824/ref=sr_1_16?s=home-garden&ie=UTF8&qid=1417361522&sr=1-16&keywords=built-in+induction+burner)
I would think a regular steel frame would be OK, just run it to the paint shop for some high temp paint.
This is the only burner I could find that had a 90 degree F temperature setting. All the other ones I looked at had the lowest setting at 120 degrees.
Is there anything else I'm missing?
Before you invest in an induction cooker, make sure a magnet will stick to the bottom of the kettle. None of my stainless steel does.
The kettle itself looks great.
Larry
Quote from: LoftyNotions on November 30, 2014, 09:05:42 PM
Before you invest in an induction cooker, make sure a magnet will stick to the bottom of the kettle. None of my stainless steel does.
The kettle itself looks great.
Larry
That's odd, all my stainless steel pots work fine on the induction and they also have the aluminium sandwich base like the home brew one mentioned...
Presuming 21 gallons of milk, and a digital controller (John @ PC's unit), would the induction cooker actually drive enough heat, for such a volume? I have a propane burner which is fine for spring and summer outdoor makes, but I'm seriously stymied in making my Abondances in the winter. I'd love to find an electric solution, for doing everything in my cellar area.
I just emailed the company, to see if they have a product that would work for cheesemaking. We'll see if I get a response back. The one I was looking at used 1800 watts, but they also have a 3400 watt unit, that requires a special plug, like the kind a welder or electric clothes dryer uses.
I would check the pot with a magnet to make sure it was induction ready, before I order the burner! If the pot has too much Nickel in it, induction won't work well, and I'm back to a propane burner. I'd rather not have to make cheese with the window open... in January...brrrr!
Jennifer,
If it "requires a special plug, like the kind a welder or electric clothes dryer uses," then it requires more than just a special plug; clothes dryers use 240 volts rather than 120. (Welders can be had for 120 volts, but 240 is more common, especially for more capable welders.) You'll want to be sure you have s 240 volt outlet available to use it.
Jennifer, you will not be able to heat 26 gal. of milk and cook curds with a 1,800 watt induction heater. I'll run the numbers but from experience with a 1,500 watt electric griddle with a paltry 5 gal. of milk it takes pretty much most of the current to heat that volume and cooking curds in the 3+ min per deg F rise range. Add that to the questions about induction-ready cookware I would stay with propane unless there is a reason not to (like wanting to heat in an enclosed area).
Quote from: John@PC on December 02, 2014, 12:05:30 AM
Jennifer, you will not be able to heat 26 gal. of milk and cook curds with a 1,800 watt induction heater. I'll run the numbers but from experience with a 1,500 watt electric griddle with a paltry 5 gal. of milk it takes pretty much most of the current to heat that volume and cooking curds in the 3+ min per deg F rise range. Add that to the questions about induction-ready cookware I would stay with propane unless there is a reason not to (like wanting to heat in an enclosed area).
Thanks John, that's good to know. And....shucks. Right now it's 4F. Not exactly alpage cheesemaking weather. :o
73F here in SC Paul. Time to move south maybe 8)?
;D
This S. California boy is feeling it in his bones right about now.
Yeah, I'd like to keep the window closed in the unheated , but insulated garage. Last winter our morning lows went down to -17. The goats and I were not amused.
There is a 3,400 watt induction burner, but even that might not be enough for 20+ gallons. Does anyone have a propane burner that is OK for indoor use that puts out maybe 150,000 BTUs? There's this one: http://www.homebrewing.org/18-Propane-Burner--220000-BTU-_p_3214.html (http://www.homebrewing.org/18-Propane-Burner--220000-BTU-_p_3214.html)
I realize I would have to have a stand made to hold 200+ pounds of milk, and with this burner I would have to have forced fan ventilation, opening a window would not be enough.
Right now, I use the small burner on my electric coil stove and I get plenty hot quick, even when pasteurizing, but that is only 4 gallons...
About the 240 volt outlet, my electric panel is in the garage, I would just cut the power, put a double GFCI circuit breaker in the panel, wire it up and away I go.
Jennifer, while I don't do batches that large I did consider testing some silicone band drum heaters but for that size vat you would be limited to about 1200W per heater. You could go to a steel band heater like this (http://www.mcmaster.com/#3549k45/=uvk6us) and get up to 1,900W - not much more than your induction heater but maybe more efficient? What is your maximum temperature and rise rate for cooking your curds, assuming you're using 26 gal. of milk?
Quote from: Sweet Leaves Farm on November 28, 2014, 10:47:51 PM
I need to make cheese in a little bigger fashion, but I don't have enough milk to buy the big equipment. My question is, would it be safe to use a stainless steel brewing kettle to make cheese in, or is there some reason it won't work? Also, what kind of burner would I use for a nearly 20" wide pot? Here is the kettle I was thinking of getting: http://morebeer.com/products/26-gallon-stainless-brew-kettle-heavy-duty.html (http://morebeer.com/products/26-gallon-stainless-brew-kettle-heavy-duty.html)
and here's the burner: http://morebeer.com/products/camp-chef-burner-60000-btu.html (http://morebeer.com/products/camp-chef-burner-60000-btu.html)
Has anyone tried this? I would appreciate any comments!
I wouldn't use a burner under a tank with milk. Seems to me you will scorch the milk unless it's a double boiler tank.
I'd consider a large belt heater or a drum heater.
(http://www.wattco.com/files/uploaded/image_upload_50.jpg)
http://www.wattco.com/files/product/catelogpdf/Band_Heaters_1164720301.pdf (http://www.wattco.com/files/product/catelogpdf/Band_Heaters_1164720301.pdf)
(http://www.thecarycompany.com/Images1/Tools/heaters/55galpowerblank-B-2.jpg)
http://www.thecarycompany.com/containers/drums/drumheater.html#drumheater (http://www.thecarycompany.com/containers/drums/drumheater.html#drumheater)
Quote from: pastpawn on December 04, 2014, 03:00:08 PM
Quote from: Sweet Leaves Farm on November 28, 2014, 10:47:51 PM
I need to make cheese in a little bigger fashion, but I don't have enough milk to buy the big equipment. My question is, would it be safe to use a stainless steel brewing kettle to make cheese in, or is there some reason it won't work? Also, what kind of burner would I use for a nearly 20" wide pot? Here is the kettle I was thinking of getting: http://morebeer.com/products/26-gallon-stainless-brew-kettle-heavy-duty.html (http://morebeer.com/products/26-gallon-stainless-brew-kettle-heavy-duty.html)
and here's the burner: http://morebeer.com/products/camp-chef-burner-60000-btu.html (http://morebeer.com/products/camp-chef-burner-60000-btu.html)
Has anyone tried this? I would appreciate any comments!
I wouldn't use a burner under a tank with milk. Seems to me you will scorch the milk unless it's a double boiler tank.
I'd consider a large belt heater or a drum heater.
(http://www.wattco.com/files/uploaded/image_upload_50.jpg)
http://www.wattco.com/files/product/catelogpdf/Band_Heaters_1164720301.pdf (http://www.wattco.com/files/product/catelogpdf/Band_Heaters_1164720301.pdf)
(http://www.thecarycompany.com/Images1/Tools/heaters/55galpowerblank-B-2.jpg)
http://www.thecarycompany.com/containers/drums/drumheater.html#drumheater (http://www.thecarycompany.com/containers/drums/drumheater.html#drumheater)
Andrew I make cheese in 21 gallon batches with a 72K BTU Brinkmann, and a tri-ply bottomed s/s stockpot. No issues with scorching. I'd surmise, partially because our temps are fairly low and gradual, and our medium much more liquid (compared to mash tun), compared to brewing. Used to do many different types of brewing in a converted 1/2 bbl, 2-tiered system with 525K BTUs. Water infusion was fine, but German style decoction was a nightmare, unless I was extremely careful.
Quote from: ArnaudForestier on December 04, 2014, 03:06:34 PMAndrew I make cheese in 21 gallon batches with a 72K BTU Brinkmann, and a tri-ply bottomed s/s stockpot. No issues with scorching. I'd surmise, partially because our temps are fairly low and gradual, and our medium much more liquid (compared to mash tun), compared to brewing. Used to do many different types of brewing in a converted 1/2 bbl, 2-tiered system with 525K BTUs. Water infusion was fine, but German style decoction was a nightmare, unless I was extremely careful.
Amazing. I built a hot liquor tank and boiler with 5500W elements in 1/2 barrel kegs (all electric, no burner). I don't think I could make cheese in there... ? Probably the element would get in the way... and I'd say scorching would be an issue. Thoughts?
(http://cdn.homebrewtalk.com/images/3/7/1/8/3/thumb2_p6280001-41335.jpg)
(http://cdn.homebrewtalk.com/images/3/7/1/8/3/_mg_8765-63542.jpg)
The highest temperature gradient I need to achieve is 1 degree per minute, unless I'm pasteurizing, and that just goes as fast as I can, while stirring, from 38 degrees F to 140 degrees F. For 4 gallons in an enameled steel canner (very thin bottom), on my coil electric stove, I turn it on medium and stir, and it takes about 15 minutes to achieve 140, with no scorching.
I wouldn't want to use any heater that was submerged (how would you stir the milk and sanitize the coil?) or not designed for food prep (could have a problem with off gassing).
I did see a stock pot single burner stove that looked interesting, but I would definitely need a vent hood for safe operation. http://www.webstaurantstore.com/cooking-performance-group-cpg-sp-18-2-stock-pot-range-70-000-btu/351CPGSP182%20NAT%2ALP.html (http://www.webstaurantstore.com/cooking-performance-group-cpg-sp-18-2-stock-pot-range-70-000-btu/351CPGSP182%20NAT%2ALP.html)
Still trying to find out how much weight it was designed for....
Hey Andrew - great looking setup. Yep, agreed, I think the elements would provide too much local heating and you'd have some scorched milk. Also agree it would be difficult to cut the curd. Nice brewing gig, though!
Quote from: Sweet Leaves Farm on December 04, 2014, 03:34:46 PM
The highest temperature gradient I need to achieve is 1 degree per minute, unless I'm pasteurizing, and that just goes as fast as I can, while stirring, from 38 degrees F to 140 degrees F. For 4 gallons in an enameled steel canner (very thin bottom), on my coil electric stove, I turn it on medium and stir, and it takes about 15 minutes to achieve 140, with no scorching.
I wouldn't want to use any heater that was submerged (how would you stir the milk and sanitize the coil?) or not designed for food prep (could have a problem with off gassing).
I did see a stock pot single burner stove that looked interesting, but I would definitely need a vent hood for safe operation. http://www.webstaurantstore.com/cooking-performance-group-cpg-sp-18-2-stock-pot-range-70-000-btu/351CPGSP182%20NAT%2ALP.html (http://www.webstaurantstore.com/cooking-performance-group-cpg-sp-18-2-stock-pot-range-70-000-btu/351CPGSP182%20NAT%2ALP.html)
Still trying to find out how much weight it was designed for....
Hey Jennifer -
For what it's worth, I've always found the store responsive to my queries. I actually bought my stockpot(s) from them, and they've always been great in dealing with any issues.
I emailed them before Thanksgiving, still waiting on a reply. I'll try again tomorrow, if I don't hear anything.
By the way, John@PC I just wanted to say my mom bought a pH meter from you and gave it to me for my birthday, and I have a much better control over the finished cheese (cheddar in this case). Thanks!
Quote from: Sweet Leaves Farm on December 04, 2014, 03:54:20 PM
I emailed them before Thanksgiving, still waiting on a reply. I'll try again tomorrow, if I don't hear anything.
Hey Jennifer,
Can't remember if I e-mailed or chatted with them; also called once, very friendly and helpful. At any rate, I just did a chat on the burner and asked for the maximum weight it can safely bear. The cust. serv. person assured me (twice - I pressed on the weight issue) that it isn't about the weight as much as the size of the pot. She stated the burner is extremely durable and weight is basically a non-issue; sizing is.
I know that's not as definitive as either of us would like, but hope it's helpful.
Edit: BTW, my Brinkmann is more than stout enough to handle my 100 qt pot, 21 gallons. It's less than 1/2 the cost of the stock pot range. Can I ask, why you're not looking more into the brewing setups?
Everyone of the brewing setups are made to work outside, and don't have a ventilation recommendation. If I wanted to use it inside, my dad, (a retired HVAC guy) would have a fit. I would start receiving CO detectors in the mail, then he would just show up one day with exhaust hoods big enough to empty my house of all air in 5 minutes!
At least with the stockpot stove they have a recommended ventilation requirement, and clearances to combustibles. I could prove that I'm not trying to burn down the house;)
Paul, I think you mean Blichmann. http://www.blichmannengineering.com/ (http://www.blichmannengineering.com/)
Jennifer, you might consider an electrical forum of heating. There are no noxious vapors to deal with, and with some simple process instruments you can accurately control the temperatures. E.g., I use my brewing system to cook with (sous vide). And, you won't run out of electricity the way one might find themselves with an empty tank of propane.
Quote from: Sweet Leaves Farm on December 04, 2014, 04:34:45 PM
Everyone of the brewing setups are made to work outside, and don't have a ventilation recommendation. If I wanted to use it inside, my dad, (a retired HVAC guy) would have a fit. I would start receiving CO detectors in the mail, then he would just show up one day with exhaust hoods big enough to empty my house of all air in 5 minutes!
At least with the stockpot stove they have a recommended ventilation requirement, and clearances to combustibles. I could prove that I'm not trying to burn down the house;)
Good papa! :)
Yeah, it is a drag. Good thought on the known parameters with the range, hadn't thought of that. Man, if your dad would do the venting, that would be awesome. Doing it in this weather, or even in the garage in spring/summer weather and then transporting the curds down into our basement where I press and age, isn't optimal. Stuck, for now, unless I can come up with a good electrical solution.
Quote from: pastpawn on December 04, 2014, 05:01:57 PM
Paul, I think you mean Blichmann. http://www.blichmannengineering.com/ (http://www.blichmannengineering.com/)
Jennifer, you might consider an electrical forum of heating. There are no noxious vapors to deal with, and with some simple process instruments you can accurately control the temperatures. E.g., I use my brewing system to cook with (sous vide). And, you won't run out of electricity the way one might find themselves with an empty tank of propane.
Whoops, missed your post Andrew when I posted the above. Blichmann, yep, sorry.
Do you know of any electrical solution that would adequately handle a 100 qt vat (preferably without having to rig 240V)?
Here's the induction stock pot range: http://www.katom.com/084-MSP7000200.html (http://www.katom.com/084-MSP7000200.html)
If I only had $3,300.
And at 7,000 watts, I do believe my rural electric co-op would be calling, asking all sorts of questions!
All the other electric burners have a limit of 10 gallons ,or less.
Quote from: ArnaudForestier on December 04, 2014, 05:30:06 PM
Quote from: pastpawn on December 04, 2014, 05:01:57 PM
Paul, I think you mean Blichmann. http://www.blichmannengineering.com/ (http://www.blichmannengineering.com/)
Jennifer, you might consider an electrical forum of heating. There are no noxious vapors to deal with, and with some simple process instruments you can accurately control the temperatures. E.g., I use my brewing system to cook with (sous vide). And, you won't run out of electricity the way one might find themselves with an empty tank of propane.
Whoops, missed your post Andrew when I posted the above. Blichmann, yep, sorry.
Do you know of any electrical solution that would adequately handle a 100 qt vat (preferably without having to rig 240V)?
It's gonna be tough to get the power you need at 120V. If 240V isn't available, then gas might be the only solution.
A few years ago I stuck a logging temp probe in my boiler. It was open top, uninsulated. 10 gallons, 5500W element. If you can't read the scales (try clicking on pic), it shows the temp rising from about 70F to 212 in 45 minutes.
You can probably extrapolate what less power or larger quantities will look like. SLOW.
(http://cdn.homebrewtalk.com/images/3/7/1/8/3/electric_boil_test-38779.jpg)
Quote from: pastpawn on December 04, 2014, 05:01:57 PM
Jennifer, you might consider an electrical forum of heating. There are no noxious vapors to deal with, and with some simple process instruments you can accurately control the temperatures.
I was thinking that too Andrew for cooking curds but I believe she needs rapid heating for pasturization and I don't know if electric can match a burner in that category. I'm going to run the calcs. but first I need to grab a brewsky to "sharpen the pencil" so to speak ;).
And thanks Jennifer. Based on reviewing posts on the forum it's the best pH meter for the money.
Quote from: John@PC on December 04, 2014, 09:31:08 PM
Quote from: pastpawn on December 04, 2014, 05:01:57 PM
Jennifer, you might consider an electrical forum of heating. There are no noxious vapors to deal with, and with some simple process instruments you can accurately control the temperatures.
I was thinking that too Andrew for cooking curds but I believe she needs rapid heating for pasturization and I don't know if electric can match a burner in that category. I'm going to run the calcs. but first I need to grab a brewsky to "sharpen the pencil" so to speak ;).
And thanks Jennifer. Based on reviewing posts on the forum it's the best pH meter for the money.
I didn't realize this was for pasteurization. That's the problem with speed reading.
Problem: Jennifer needs to increase 26 gal. milk (216 lbs) 100 deg using a 70,000 BTU gas burner. How long will it take?
Assuming burner efficiency of 50%:
216 lbs x 100 deg F = 21,600 BTU required
70,000 burner BTU x .50 / 21,600 = 1.6 hrs.
What would be time if using 5,500 watt heating element?
5,500 watt = 1611.5 BTU/hr
21,600 BTU (required) / 1611.5 BTU/hr = 13.4 hr.
Second calculation seems to long to me even assuming 100% efficiency. Thus it may take a second brewsky to validate 8). Cheers Andrew!
The second one seems to long to me too, since my 40 gal 5500kw water heater goes from cold to hot in about 20 min. I think I'll have a glass of wine.
Quote from: smolt1 on December 04, 2014, 11:08:23 PM
The second one seems to long to me too, since my 40 gal 5500kw water heater goes from cold to hot in about 20 min. I think I'll have a glass of wine.
Good point, but 5500kw would be 5,500,000 watts right? I know what you mean though and hopefully someone out there that's more sober than us can help us out.
That was only off by a factor of 1000. Where is a physics major when you need one?
You guys are too funny! My husband is a physics major, and I got a raised eyebrow when I read him the 5500kW. There has got to be a way to heat the milk gradually to 140 degrees, without scorching it, that doesn't cost more than my truck!
Quote from: John@PC on December 04, 2014, 11:25:47 PM
...someone out there that's more sober than us can help us out.
I have a ^&%$#@ squirrel that has taken up taunting me in the room adjoining my cheese cave. He or she's smarter than me. It's coming to C4, or a 10-gauge. I'm drinking just to salve my ego.
Found my error :-[. 2nd option for a 5,500 watt heating element should have been:
5,500 watt = 18,771 BTU/hr
21,600 BTU (required) / 18.771 BTU/hr =
1.15 hr to heat 26 gal. 100 deg.
Assume 75% efficiency time would be pretty close to the 70,000 BTU gas burner. This jives better with the "hot water heater" comments.
Quote from: Sweet Leaves Farm on December 04, 2014, 11:40:10 PM
There has got to be a way to heat the milk gradually to 140 degrees, without scorching it, that doesn't cost more than my truck!
Assuming you want "clean" heat (no vent required) and you can extend pasteurization time you should look at this band heater (http://this%20band%20heater) and picture below. 110v, 1,700 watt and should fit your kettle bottom. A nice thing about this one is it's got a variable-cycle heater that adjusts the on-off duty cycle which would really help control heat rise time when cooking curds (much better than a thermostatic control). Brand name is "Wrap-it Heat" and I saw it on several websites but McMaster had the best price I saw.
Hot water heaters are well insulated and have internal elements so to get maximum efficiency you would need to have some kind of insulation wrap esp. if it's cold out there. Assuming you do and you get 50% efficiency the time would look like this:
(21,600 BTU (required) / 5,972 BTU/hr) x .50 =
7.2 hr to heat 26 gal. 100 deg.
Even if you needed 2 it still would be cheaper than your truck unless it's like the one below ;D.
John, did you mean this one? http://www.mcmaster.com/#3552k74/=uwjx11 (http://www.mcmaster.com/#3552k74/=uwjx11)
$300 is a great price, but I don't think they are adjustable, size wise? They go from 18 1/2" to 22 1/2" All the pots I have looked at are 20" wide. Could you tell if the heater uses a spring clamp ( like a springform cheesecake pan) or something that is adjustable?
I also worry that the thinner walls of the pot (1.2 MM) versus the thicker bottom (5.6MM) would let the milk scorch on the sides, where the band is, or would it make a convection current?
You definitely couldn't use a circular stirring motion, you would have to stir from the bottom to make sure you mixed in the milk from the center.
Has anyone considered running the milk through a smaller diameter coil or pipe----either gravity fed or pumped-----and just heat the pipe? Ni-chrome wire is readily available to make any heating element you want. Just a thought.
Qdog
I found the website for the wrap-it heaters: http://expoengineered.com/Expo_Engineered_Heaters/SRX.htm (http://expoengineered.com/Expo_Engineered_Heaters/SRX.html)l
QuoteEXPO ENGINEERED Model SRX-30 Drum Heater is designed for heating materials that are subject to coking, burning or chemical separation, such as food, chocolate, honey, light oils, chemical and undercoating materials, etc. Model SRX-30 does NOT have a thermostat and therefore will not AUTOMATICALLY reach and maintain a given temperature. However, the INFINITE control allows the operator to CLOSELY control the heater OUTPUT within a given range of HIGH, MEDIUM or LOW. The three heat switch allows three wattage ratings per control setting and voltage rating: HIGH, Maximum Watts; MEDIUM, 1/2 Maximum Watts and LOW, 1/4 Maximum Watts. Equipped with spring loaded toggle clamp for snug fit, 6 foot power cord and high ampere three pin plug. For 120V operation, use bell NEMA 5-20 Outlet. FOR INDOOR USE ONLY.
I sent an email to their sales dept. asking the adjustment range and if they have any advice for your application. Based on my experience with using an 1,750W electric griddle with rectangular pans up to 6 gal. I don't think you would have a problem with scorching as the band has a pretty large heating area with low watt-density. Hopefully Expo can shed some more light.
Qdog, isn't this similar to how milk is commercially pasturized? Only problem is that when cooking the curds may not be too happy being "pumped and pushed around" :).
John----I think your correct on pasteurizing--- what I'm suggesting is, it is much easier to heat small volume quickly to what ever temperature you want and then hold that temp. in the large vat that you are making your cheese. The simplest way ----would be to use two brew vats---one set higher then the other ----gravity lets the milk run through the heated tube into the cheese vat---think of a still, only instead of cooling through the tubing, your heating. The heat surrounding the tubing is easily controlled and so is the rate of flow through the tubing. The cheese vat can then be kept at temp. by various means rather easily. Since you mentioned it---it seems to me, it would also make a decent pasteurizer---up the temp. in the tubes to that required (145 ?) and hold for the half hour required in the cheese vat
Well you know me John---always over-thinking :)
Qdog
If I pasteurized every batch, I would definitely need 2 pots. Since I only pasteurize fresh cheese, and milk for baby goats, it's only about a third of the time, except for a few months in early spring. Each kid drinks about half a gallon a day, so I pasteurize alot in March and April.
I wonder if I could make a double boiler setup, using a larger more shallow pan, with the band heater, and a very sturdy rack and enough water to cover the wall of the pot up past the heater...
How much heat loss would that be? Would I be able to stir the pot without scorching my pants?
If I only had a dollar for everytime I ask that question;)
Quote from: Sweet Leaves Farm on December 06, 2014, 04:01:10 PM
If I pasteurized every batch, I would definitely need 2 pots. Since I only pasteurize fresh cheese, and milk for baby goats, it's only about a third of the time, except for a few months in early spring. Each kid drinks about half a gallon a day, so I pasteurize alot in March and April.
I wonder if I could make a double boiler setup, using a larger more shallow pan, with the band heater, and a very sturdy rack and enough water to cover the wall of the pot up past the heater...
How much heat loss would that be? Would I be able to stir the pot without scorching my pants?
If I only had a dollar for everytime I ask that question;)
Jennifer, in addition to what John and others have offered, you might want to also look up Wayne Harris's and I believe, also, Sailor Con Queso's setups, in this context. Not to pasterization temps or protocol, but I believe relevant.
Quote from: Sweet Leaves Farm on December 06, 2014, 04:01:10 PM
I wonder if I could make a double boiler setup, using a larger more shallow pan, with the band heater, and a very sturdy rack and enough water to cover the wall of the pot up past the heater...
How much heat loss would that be? Would I be able to stir the pot without scorching my pants?
If I only had a dollar for everytime I ask that question;)
That sounds like a good idea. If you have a 20" diameter pot and get someone to cut a 22 1/2" dia. 55 gal. drum to the height you need, you would have a nice 1" space to fill with water and have a nice big double boiler. Maybe use a round piece of 1" thick rigid polyurethane between the drum and pot, strap one or two of the band heaters around the outside and wrap with some appropriate insulation (to keep pants from scorching) and off you go!
Let me say also better to check with the experts like Paul says. Just curious, is it safe to do a "slow pasteurization" where you would take several hours to get to 140F? I know you have to hold at 140 for 30 min. but is there any danger taking a while to get there?
Quote from: John@PC on December 06, 2014, 09:31:15 PM
Let me say also better to check with the experts like Paul says.
Whoops, let me just say John, I consider you an expert. And Jennifer, sorry, I obviously need to slow down. I thought you were talking about a cheese make, not pasteurization.
Edit: I need to slow down. Including my own writing. :-[
Yes, having no real winter is rather nice.
Right about now, Stinky, I'm crying.
Quote from: ArnaudForestier on December 06, 2014, 10:51:33 PM
Right about now, Stinky, I'm crying.
Sunny and 80F for Christmas doesn't jive with the holiday music on the radio. It's great right now, but snow for the holiday is kinda nice.
John- Pasteurization needs to be done in less than 4 hours, for best milk quality, especially since I'm using Goat's milk, which is more easily damaged than cow's milk. So, ideally less than 2 hours to get to 140, 30 min at temp, then cool quickly. I wonder if I could just put the 10 gallon milk cans in the hot water bath, get them to temp and then back in the cooler. It would be a smaller volume of milk, quicker to get to temp and then cool. Then I could put my big 26 gallon pot in the water bath, and a cheese making I would go...
Paul- I feel your pain, especially when I'm out hand milking goats in an unheated shed in January.
Quote from: ArnaudForestier on December 06, 2014, 10:51:33 PM
Right about now, Stinky, I'm crying.
*patpatpat*
I shall do my best to make it up to you someday.
Quote from: Sweet Leaves Farm on December 07, 2014, 12:47:49 AM
I wonder if I could just put the 10 gallon milk cans in the hot water bath, get them to temp and then back in the cooler. It would be a smaller volume of milk, quicker to get to temp and then cool. Then I could put my big 26 gallon pot in the water bath, and a cheese making I would go...
Sounds good assuming you can get the water temp to where you need it with heat losses and all. You may want to look at FSW (FoodServiceWarehouse) as they have the size pots you're looking for and offer free ship over $300. Screen grab shows my "cart" with 100qt ss pot and a 160qt aluminum pot for the water bath (had to add the frying pan to get free shipping).
Quote from: qdog1955 on December 06, 2014, 12:46:17 PM
Has anyone considered running the milk through a smaller diameter coil or pipe----either gravity fed or pumped-----and just heat the pipe? Ni-chrome wire is readily available to make any heating element you want. Just a thought.
Qdog
^^ This is what I'd do - a heat exchanger. I'd get a coil of stainless steel tubing, put it inside a boiler pot, and pump the milk through the pot to another container. Keep the boiler at 212 and modulate the flow rate to get the exit temperature you want from the coil.
You'd want to put a thermometer at the exit of the coil. Flow could be modulated with a simple manual ball valve or automated with a proportional electric valve.
(http://www.homebrewtalk.com/gallery/data/1/medium/CIMG2816.JPG)
(http://www.homebrewtalk.com/gallery/data/1/medium/CIMG2820.JPG)
Tubing from here is $50. Note that bending stainless without kinking is a mother. Much better to buy it pre-coiled like here than getting a bunch of tubing from mcmaster-carr and trying to bend it yourself. I'd prefer 1/2" for this application. http://morebeer.com/products/stainless-draft-coil.html (http://morebeer.com/products/stainless-draft-coil.html)
For a pump, March Pumps makes an inexpensive ($100) food grade pump that is perfect for any temp, including boiling liquids. I use a March 809-PL-HS http://www.marchpump.com/series-809-hs/ (http://www.marchpump.com/series-809-hs/)
For best milk quality, it's not a great idea to pump goat milk anywhere. The protein and fat molecules can rip apart and make the milk be less than perfect. I get lots of comments on how rich and sweet my goat's milk is, I don't want to do anything that could change that. It also makes me nervous when I can't see to clean. I know I'll have to get over it in order to use a bucket milker, but I'm not ready yet. And for most of the hoses on the bucket milker, I can use clear silicon hoses. :)
Now that I have a better idea of cost and space requirements, I can start designing my space in the garage. I'll take pics when I get it going next spring. Thanks everyone!
John, if the company sends you the info about the band heater, could you post it, for everyone to read? Thanks!
Thanks pastpawn for explaining the concept much better then I did---but I think Jennifer is right about pumping----the gravity fed would solve that problem.
Qdog
Jennifer,
I want to be sure you have looked carefully at John's calculations for time required to heat the milk using a 1750W heating unit (e.g., a 120v band heater):
(21,600 BTU (required) / 5,972 BTU/hr) x .50 = 7.2 hr to heat 26 gal. 100 deg.
Keep in mind that there is no way around the physics here -- no matter what you do, it takes a certain amount of BTU's to heat a certain quantity of milk in a certain span of time. You may not need 100 degrees of temperature rise, depending on whether you are coming straight from the goat ... but even if you only need 50 degrees of temperature rise, you are pushing your 4 hour window.
Separating the 26 gallons into, say, three 8.6 gallon batches is not the answer. That will let you heat each batch more quickly ... but by the time you have heated all three, one after another, plus the time to hold each batch at heat for 30 minutes, and the time to transfer each batch to and from the heating pot, you have actually taken more time that you would heating it all at once. Likewise, heating the milk as it flows through a tube is not the answer -- once again, you can heat the quart or so of milk that is in the tube relatively quickly ... but by the time you have heated all 26 gallons, you are back to your BTU equation. :(
Of course, if you heat each batch simultaneously with its own band heater--i.e., using three band heaters at the same time--you can speed things up enough to meet your target. But now you are facing a different issue of physics, or at least of conventional residential wiring: you cannot plug all three band heaters into the same 120v circuit without blowing a fuse. Most household 120v circuits are wired for 15 amps max, though it is possible to have one wired for 20 amps. 120v X 15 amps = 1800W. Thus, each band heater will use the entire amperage for a given circuit--not for a given plug or outlet, but for every plug/outlet on the entire circuit. It is highly unlikely that your garage has three separate circuits wired to three separate outlets; if you have as many as three outlets in the garage, they are almost certainly all wired to the same circuit. In fact, it is quite possible that the outlet(s) in your garage are part of the same circuit as the lights in the garage, and/or any outside outlets (got any Christmas lights plugged in?), or so on. In other words, you may not have enough amperage available to run even one band heater at 1750W on the existing garage outlet(s).
All of this assumes that your garage is wired up conventionally--that no one has, for example, wired up a 240v circuit in your garage. If that is the case, or if you are in a position to have one wired up, the equation changes drastically, though you will still need to check the amperage available. If only a 20 amp circuit, you'd have 3600W available ... but then again, 240v circuits can be wired for as much as 50 amps, which would give you 12,000W to play with. :)
I hear the concern for not applying so much heat that you scorch the milk ... but the fact remains that you have to apply a certain amount of heat to raise the temperature of that much liquid in a certain span of time. So, apply less heat to multiple smaller batches, or apply more heat to one big batch, but spread it over a greater surface area and/or keep the milk moving so that it doesn't scorch. I don't believe there is any other way around this!
Another thought: Using the double boiler idea, how about heating the milk PART WAY using hot water from your water heater ( to low 100 degrees ), then a heater element in the double boiler to continue to 140 degrees. This makes the change in temperature needed only 20 to 40 degrees instead of 100 degrees and would take much less time. A 120 V 1750 watt water heater element or a 240 V 2750 watt element are about $15 each.
I looked at Wayne's setup, and if I could be certain about the wiring, I would like that idea. I could even let the water heat while I was out milking, then just pop the can in the warm water and start stirring. I bet John could whip up a controller that would make it all work. I need to figure out a good way to mount the elements, so we wouldn't have any chance of ZAP!
If I use the band heaters, I would buy the 3000 watt one, and just wire up a double breaker, we have room in the electric box in the garage. With the water heater elements, I would need to
do that anyway.
Quote from: Sweet Leaves Farm on December 08, 2014, 10:20:15 PM
I looked at Wayne's setup, and if I could be certain about the wiring, I would like that idea. I could even let the water heat while I was out milking, then just pop the can in the warm water and start stirring. I bet John could whip up a controller that would make it all work. I need to figure out a good way to mount the elements, so we wouldn't have any chance of ZAP!
If I use the band heaters, I would buy the 3000 watt one, and just wire up a double breaker, we have room in the electric box in the garage. With the water heater elements, I would need to
do that anyway.
I highly recommend a GFCI breaker. 240V 30A GFCI breakers are expensive, but they are worth it. I put one in my breaker box when I built my electric brewing system. Make sure that the boiler is grounded.
Andrew, we have a whole house GFCI and all the breakers are GFCI also, they are the only ones that fit in the box. As for grounding the metal stand, would having it set on the concrete floor be enough, or would I have to do something else? The ground rod for the house is buried in the footer for the garage.
Quote from: Sweet Leaves Farm on December 09, 2014, 10:20:18 AM
Andrew, we have a whole house GFCI and all the breakers are GFCI also, they are the only ones that fit in the box. As for grounding the metal stand, would having it set on the concrete floor be enough, or would I have to do something else? The ground rod for the house is buried in the footer for the garage.
If there are electrical stuff connected to your pot, the metal pot needs to be connected to a ground in your house. It's the green wire in the house wiring. You can run a piece of bare copper wire from the pot to an outlet. Without grounding, the breaker won't trip if there's a short in the pot.
Quote from: pastpawn on December 09, 2014, 05:59:40 PM
If there are electrical stuff connected to your pot, the metal pot needs to be connected to a ground in your house. It's the green wire in the house wiring. You can run a piece of bare copper wire from the pot to an outlet. Without grounding, the breaker won't trip if there's a short in the pot.
Andrew is right (as usual) but in the case you do use a band heater I would expect the metal band to be grounded. GFIC's will not trip if you have a hot-to-neutral (black to white) short; only if it's across ground. Note that I have not tested this personally :o so I can't attest.
You are correct John, The the ground fault interrupt only protects a fault to ground ( like through your body ). It cuts the current off very fast when it gets to a few mill-amps to ground. The regular breaker cuts the current off when it gets to the rated current ( 20 amps for a 20 amp breaker ) to keep the # 12 ( 20 amp rated )wire from over heating. One saves you, the other saves your house.
So here's the compromise that I, with all of your help came up with: Notice that after doing the math, I realized I needed to scale down the pot to 15 gallon. Any comments are appreciated!
Would this work for the temperature controller for the 5500 W heating element? It looks OK, but maybe I'm missing something...
You might need a small pump to stir the heating water. The heat will raise to the top, and the temperature controller won't work right at all. The difference between above and below the element can be VERY large. I know you'd think that there'd be some convection currents to move the water around, but that just doesn't happen.
Also, there's only one completely SS element that I've seen. The ones that you get at home depot that look stainless usually have iron bases that do rust inside the pot. I'll see if I can track down the full SS one for you.
Hmm -- thought I had replied, but must have done something wrong.
Yes, the temperature controller can handle this IF you switch the power to the 5500 watt heater element through an external SSR (solid state relay). At least for the digital PID controllers I've seen, the built-in mechanical relays that come with some models are only capable of a few amps. And in any case, the SSR should give you better long-term reliability.
I agree with Andrew about the pump to circulate the water!
This might seem expensive, but it has the PID, thermocouple, SSR, heat sink, Emergency Stop, 10 gauge power cord, a switch and dial to go from temperature control to % power (for boil).
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00K67ZHHS (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00K67ZHHS)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/71GBCnBtMgL._SL1280_.jpg)
I found this to help cut costs :http://www.instructables.com/id/Electric-brewing-system/#step0
Looks just like the one from Amazon, but should be a little cheaper, and my dad (40 year custom HVAC experience)and hubby (physicist for test and measure)can make sure I'm doing it right.
I will definitely add a pump to circulate the water.
Should the thermometer be in the water jacket or the milk? I thought it should be a food safe one in the milk, but maybe not?
Water jacket. Otherwise you will probably have overshoots in temperature.
This is a control system. The PID parameters should be tuned to produce the quickest heating cycle without overshoot. This can be done manually, but by far the easiest way to do that is to look at the PID manual and see if it supports an "autotune" feature. The way that should work is to set the system up exactly the way you want to use it (just use water for milk), with all the same quantities, and with pumps etc running, then put the PID into autotune. The PID will heat up and monitor the response at the thermometer, watching for overshoot, then repeat. It can take a while, but in this way the PID will set it's P/I/D parameters to the ideal.
Quote from: Sweet Leaves Farm on February 10, 2015, 02:55:46 PM
Should the thermometer be in the water jacket or the milk? I thought it should be a food safe one in the milk, but maybe not?
Quote from: Sweet Leaves Farm on February 10, 2015, 02:55:46 PM
I found this to help cut costs :http://www.instructables.com/id/Electric-brewing-system/#step0
Looks just like the one from Amazon, but should be a little cheaper, and my dad (40 year custom HVAC experience)and hubby (physicist for test and measure)can make sure I'm doing it right.
I will definitely add a pump to circulate the water.
Should the thermometer be in the water jacket or the milk? I thought it should be a food safe one in the milk, but maybe not?
A couple comments on that instructables build:
- That PID does have an autotune feature.
Don't use a dry cord if you are going to plug/unplug this often. Fixed installation, it will be OK. Dryer cords are a huge hassle. Get some SJOOW cable from Home Depot or electrical supply and add a connector. Dryer cords don't bend well at all.
Cool. Thanks! Now to finish cleaning and organizing the garage, so I can start putting up the wall in the next few weeks.