Hi Guys,
I'm not wanting to start a debate, just wanting to point out a rather disturbing news article in our local news this morning. A toddler has died and four other children have become seriously ill from drinking raw milk sold as bath milk (not sold for human consumption). I had considered using bath milk for cheese, but I think I'll pass for now.
http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/toddler-dies-four-children-seriously-ill-after-drinking-raw-cows-milk-20141210-124lx8.html (http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/toddler-dies-four-children-seriously-ill-after-drinking-raw-cows-milk-20141210-124lx8.html)
Shane
Mate, you'll be fine.
Even the FDA in America, famous for overzealous regulation, reckons it's fine to have cheeses from raw milk so long as the cheeses are over a month old. In the ageing the cheeses acidify and kill any bacteria. The whole point of cheesemaking is the acidification: as the bacteria produce lactic acid, the milk separates into curds and whey. This natural lactobacilli induced fermentation makes conditions more favourable for the good cheesemaking stuff and less hospitable for the nasties.
In regards to that specific story... I saw it earlier, via the ABC. It's just not very good journalism. They all appeared to have got it from a Herald Sun story a day or so ago. The facts of the story so far as they go are true; but they don't go very far. All that's known is the child became ill 'after' drinking raw milk. We don't know if the child had an illness or allergy or pre-existing condition that exacerbated their illness. The other cases of children who became ill 'after' drinking raw milk appear to be unrelated: we don't know when these cases occurred, if the children had a pre-existing condition, or what brands they were drinking (apparently they were unrelated brands). Furthermore, it may even have been the case that they contracted the infections from some other source - not raw milk!
Thanks Tim. Yeah the more I read of it the more it sounds like a media beat up. The kids were no doubt unvaccinated as well. I'll get more experience up with the cheap supermarket milk for now. It allows for a lot of inexpensive experimentation.
All the best.
Shane
Yeah it's worth being aware of the risks anyway - though it doesn't help when irresponsible media sources exaggerate said risks. What's your latest cheese project? In the past few days I've made three Lancashire cheeses!
Just simple stuff here. A couple of baby double brie's on Tuesday. My third big brie has now been wrapped. Hopefully at 12°C it will be ready by Christmas. A photo of it is below. I would like to do another hard cheese, but my wife and daughter would like me to make some feta for them. I suspect they will win out. :)
I'll have to read up on Lancashires. I'm not familiar with it.
All the best.
Shane
Niiiiiiiiiiiice looking Brie!
Temperature and humidity control is an issue for me that I've yet to tackle so I just can't tackle some cheeses yet. Bries and most cheeses with added molds, bacterias (brevi linens), etc.
Lancashire is very simple and the concept appeals to me. It was traditionally made by people who'd save curds over several days until they had enough to put into a final cheese; the natural variability of the curd quality gave an interesting texture and flavour to the final cheese.
The recipe is simple. Heat some milk up to 31 degrees C. Add culture. Keep the milk at 31C; after an hour; add rennet. Let the milk curdle for another hour. Cut the curds, then let them settle below the level of the whey for another half an hour. Pour off the whey to the level of the curds, and for the next half hour give the curds the occasional stir to make sure they keep on losing whey. Through all this just remember 31C, 31C, 31C - it's the magical temperature!
Then spoon them out into cheesecloth and tie them up into a bag and hang it up to drain for an hour. Then chuck it into a cheese mold (or.... maybe carefully place it in the mold) and press lightly, 10 lbs, for two hours.
Finally, take the cheese out of the mold, break up into curds again, salt the curds, pour the curds back into the cheesecloth and the cloth back into the mold, and press again at 10 lbs.
Keep it there for four or so days. Turn the cheese four or so times the first day and once a day thereafter.
What were we talking about again? Sorry, I think I bored *myself* to sleep too.
Oh yeah, so basically it's an extremely simple hard cheese; very lightly pressed and drained and usually eaten quite fresh so it retains a lot of the softness and juiciness of the milk. It's good stuff man!
Shane,
Don't conned either by the 'Just because it's Raw - It's Better'. This is where the situation can get clouded by emotion. If you know your producer and know their practices and are local, there would be no argument - I'd use it. I grew up on Raw milk and I still drink Raw milk - when I can get it. I actually went to the producer and chatted to them and they quite happily gave me a tour of the farm and it was better than anything you could imagine a dairy to look like. But I still follow a few personal rules, because after the 'Cosmetic Milk' leaves the bottling area they have no control over anything else. So, I never buy it if the bottle looks 'Swollen', Never buy it if it is more than 2 days old - on the one I buy there is a bottled batch date. I don't make cheese using it - though I would like to - but my wife won't eat it. And lets call a shovel a shovel ... in the report there was no details about how old the milk was, how it was stored, what it was mixed with... BTW the report is flawed in its details about when it became Law in Australia. Pasteurisation was 'introduced' in the 1930's but wasn't 'law' until much later in some case MUCH later.
http://www.pir.sa.gov.au/biosecuritysa/foodsafety/dairy/raw_milk_products_-_qa (http://www.pir.sa.gov.au/biosecuritysa/foodsafety/dairy/raw_milk_products_-_qa)
■The national food safety dairy standard produced by FSANZ and endorsed by all Australian Ministers requires that milk is pasteurised. This is made law in South Australia under the Food Act 2001 and the Primary Produce (Food Safety Schemes) Act 2004.
Further, they fail to compare similar 'Outbreaks' and 'illness' of contamination Chicken, Pork and seafood or deaths caused by Booze, cars and speed (both varients).
Me personally, I would like to be able make a informed choice instead of being dictated to - protected for my own benefit - Please... It really was introduced to protect 'Big Dairy' and extend the travelling distance of the product.
"Even the FDA in America, famous for overzealous regulation, reckons it's fine to have cheeses from raw milk so long as the cheeses are over a month old. In the ageing the cheeses acidify and kill any bacteria."
The FDA actually requires raw milk cheeses to be aged a minimum of 60 days.
Susan
Thanks. This brie is a lot better formed than the last one. Hopefully it tastes as good as the last one.
The Lancashire sounds interesting. So at what point do you save the curds to combine multiple days? What conditions would the curds need to be left under? I did a bit of googling on Lancashire cheeses and came across this one.
http://www.hartingtoncheeseshop.co.uk/buycheese.asp?buycheese=19&cheesecat=6# (http://www.hartingtoncheeseshop.co.uk/buycheese.asp?buycheese=19&cheesecat=6#)
It looks and sounds interesting.
I'm still battling humidity control. Temperature control is not too bad though. I think it doesn't help that the humidity in melbourne is so low to start with. I received a second ultrasonic fogger today and have made a float to hold three of the foggers but the depth that they are sitting is a little low. I'll need to sort that out later. I need to also replace all of the shelves in my cave. At present it is full of glass shelves, but as I'm using a vegetable crisper as my water source, the glass shelves make it difficult to spread around the humidity. I think I'll get some pine planks with some gaps to use as shelves.
At the moment I'm back to having Tuesday and Thursday off work, so no doubt these will become cheese days for the moment. :D
All the best.
Shane
Thanks Mal and Susan. That is interesting to know. I might have to talk to my uncle who was a dairy farmer up until a couple of years ago. He may know a good and safe source of milk.
Shane
Susan, thanks for picking me up on that! OzzieCheese, some great tips there. When I buy raw milk I try to get it fresh.
Pasteurisation has a more complicated history than some of these health experts imply. According to Cheese Making Help - the blog for the New England Cheese Corp - it took on in the US due to historical coincidence more than anything else ( https://cheesemakinghelp.blogspot.com.au/2013/04/real-milk-needs-support.html (https://cheesemakinghelp.blogspot.com.au/2013/04/real-milk-needs-support.html) ):
How did we get so obsessed with pasteurization anyway? After World War II, retail milk's competition was based on how much cream your milk had—the more the better—which was clearly visible because of "the cream line." But this made the cheaper, less rich milk harder to sell. So the dairy industry started homogenizing the milk to do away with the cream line. That catch is that once milk is homogenized, if there is no further processing, it will go rancid in a matter of hours, which didn't happen as quickly when milk was kept in its natural state. So pasteurization was mandated, first by states and then federally.
Of course we're not the US, but we often follow their lead.
Shane, your question about when you save curds to make Lancashire is a good one. Short answer - we don't know! I haven't found any definitive information on this forum (the recipes you'll find usually use buttermilk as well as culture, which I assume is meant to substitute for the additions of curds over successive days). Professional Lancashire makers probably still use a technique for saving curds - but, like a cloth-bound cheddar, they're keeping it under wraps. (Ho ho ho ho... sorry.)
So I've been sort of experimenting. I did a post about my experiments here (https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,13664.0.html)and would love feedback and tips on how to improve my method.
My best guess is that the milk is curdled as normal, and the curds are cooked as normal but then set aside in a cool, safe place (ie, nowhere where your dog or cat can come along and gobble them up!) I put mine in the fridge overnight - still in whey (it just seems the right thing to do). I'd also guess that additions of curds from previous days are kept to a minimum level, so the 'base' for the cheese you are making is fairly predictable.
Anyway, I've tried this (or slight variations on the process) in my method, so when we slice into the cheeses in a bit we'll see what they taste like :)
I found this explanation.
QuoteTo make Lancashire Cheese, starter and rennet is added to milk. When the milk has curdled, the curds are cut, then the whey is drained off, and the curd is pressed until dry. The curd is let sit overnight, then chopped up, and fresh curd from that new, second day is added, mixed in and it is all salted. Some producers only mix first day curd and second day curd on the third day. The cheese is then pressed for two days, bandaged, waxed, or buttered, and let mature.
I recall reading your thread and found it quite interesting. I don't have anything really to add though at this stage.
Shane
Fascinating! Maybe I got my version around back-arsewards but then again I'd imagine there's quite a lot of variations you can work with this process.
Yeah I wouldn't be surprised if there are many recipes. My only issue is that would be making cheese mess daily for three days. It is bad enough cleaning it up once or twice a week. :) I'm not very organised at the moment. I need to improve on my processes to make things a little less cleanup intensive....
Shane
It's all the leftover whey that's really the problem! It goes acidic quickly, and you can't drink it all... good for stock and use in breads, though. And where can you find room in the fridge for all of that?
I'd been hoping to do this experiment for months, and store all the whey so I could use it all to make a ricotta or a mysost. Mysost sounds great fun: you basically boil whey for hours and hours until there's so little water that the sugars (lactose and galactose, mostly) start to caramelise. You end up with a brown fudgy spread, perfect for toast in the mornings.... But alas, I didn't have any time. Most of it went on the garden or, I'm ashamed to admit, down the drain.
Our dog is on a special renal failure diet. We need to make up his food. It has soaked rolled oats and soft cheese in it. I've been soaking the oats in whey and have been making whey ricotta which I also use in his food. It is a bit less waste that way and does save a few cents.
The mysost does sound interesting. I was reading about it a while ago. I think it's supposed to be made from goats milk isn't it?
Shane
Dunno, I think in my book of cheese recipes by Rikki Carroll it's just included as a whey cheese. Aside from the different amounts of lactose/galactose in different types of milk I think one would be pretty much as good as another.
Whey's great, I like to have a cup of it when I'm cheesemaking. What with the strange green colour and the fact that it's still swimming with those microbial beasties I feel a little like Dr Jekyll downing another bubbling beaker of a magical fluid. But it's very rich, I can never have too much - I think it's the concentration of lactose and the acidity.
Yeah, you are right. In Rikki Carroll's book it definitely says cow milk whey. The goat milk variant is geitost.
Shane
Shane, here is a link to a one-day Lancashire: https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,6505.msg46408.html#msg46408. (https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,6505.msg46408.html#msg46408.) Previous discussion concluded that this produces the "creamy Lancashire" variety. It is a favorite of mine -- matures in 5-6 weeks and very tasty.
Thanks for the suggestion. I might give it a go soon. One thing I'm finding to be a problem is the salt level in some of the cheeses I've made so far. My Caerphilly was particularly salty to a point where I don't wish to eat it s and my first brie was also. I followed the recipe correctly, but am not sure whether the salt came from the recipe or occasional brine washes to keep mould at bay. Do you find the Lancashire recipe salty? I've made a cheddar a few weeks ago and put half of the amount of salt due to this. Not sure how it will taste yet as it has quite a few months to go. I'm not a huge fan of high levels of salt.
Thanks.
Shane
Shane, just wondering on how much you are using.
QuoteMy Caerphilly was particularly salty to a point where I don't wish to eat it s and my first brie was also.
I use for 10 litre makes of Caerphilly only two table spoons and hand rub a little salt over the cheese during pressing and I don't Brine either of the Caerphilly or my Malemberts.
https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,12893.0.html (https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,12893.0.html)
I use the following pressing and hand salting routine:
Pressing and Dressing procedure
1. Press for 10 minutes @ 10 lbs. Remove from the mould rub salt in the top, bottom and sides - redress .
2. Press again with @10 lbs. for 10 minutes. Repeat the salting as well.
3. Repeat and re-press @ 15 lbs. for 20 minutes. Repeat the salting as well.
4. Unmould re-salt and redress and press again @ 25 lbs. for 16 hours. On the press I am using .75kg @ 60cm and 1.5kg @ 70 cm which gives me 8Kg at the cheese and 2kg @ 80 for 25lbs
-- Mal
Hi Mal,
Thanks for that. I followed the Greening of Gavin page for Caerphilly. His recipe came from Making Artisan Cheese by Tim Smith. I used 9L of milk with two tablespoons of salt mixed in the broken up drained curds. I added no further salt apart from dabbing mould on the surface. I was swapping between brine and vinegar for that. Maybe it was this that imparted the salt. I subsequently gave up on the mould and just vacuum sealed the other half of the cheese. I'll get back to natural rinds once I sort out my humidity control issues.
I suspect with the first brie the problem was that the cheese height was not high enough, so the rind to paste ratio was a little high. That problem has been resolved since that batch. I never got to try the second batch, so I can only judge it's success by all of the people from my work wanting to order cheese from me. :)
Today I've placed an order with cheeselinks for some starter cultures, mould spores and hoops + baskets. I'm looking forward to getting them. I have ordered a couple of open bottomed brie hoops, so I'll get to do an 8L batch next time. The same mess for more cheese. Yay! :)
So, I take it from your pressing routine you never actually add salt directly to the curds. I've been doing the external salting already on the brie batches. Would that work for the Lancashire also? I might give that a go if it's the case.
This week will be feta, so I'll need to consider what will come after that. My cave is starting to get a little fuller. I have a full-size double cream brie, three camembert sized double cream brie, half a Caerphilly, a small blue and an Oompa Loompa coloured cheddar in there. I bought some more ripening containers today for more cheese.
Have a good weekend all.
Shane
Hi Shane,
For the Caerphilly - Just to clarify I do add 2 Table spoons of salt during the milling and then hand salt at each re-wrapping during pressing - nothing else. And actually the salting on the outside will help set up the rind and control the mould and I actually let the white wild 'Geo' go free on the surface, and I hardly bother wiping them down. If you get a nice knit on the rind during pressing then the rest of the maturing goes pretty well.
I wish I could give classes on the final work of maturing the cheese. I'd try and write a blog but there is nothing quite like doing it and feeling it.. I can give all the explanations under the sun but until you feel the salt and cheese in your hands and how it looks and smells it really is hard imparting that... Smellavision and tactile learning .. oh I wish.
-- Mal
Thanks for the clarification Mal. I think I must be overly sensitive to salt then. I'll adjust for my taste then. I think the knit of my first Caerphilly was not perfect. I did have some pitting and I got the occasional green spots of mould in there. I'll try again with half the amount of salt when I get my new hard cheese mould. My present handmade mould is not ideal.
Your classes sound like a great idea. Whereabouts are you in Australia? I think there are a few small cheese manufacturers on the Mornington peninsula that run courses.
How do you manage humidity in your cave for Caerphilly with a natural rind? I'm concerned that it will dry out too much in mine. I've got two ultrasonic foggers at the base of mine, but they are doing a rubbish job. The highest I'm getting at the moment is 40%RH @ 12°C. I don't know whether I should put the Caerphilly in a ripening box or try and get the whole cave humidity up.
Any suggestions? I'm trying a bowl of saturated salt solution at the moment to see if that does anything.
Thanks for your help.
Shane
Sorry to jump in, Shane, but you're only getting 40% with 2 UHs? Do you have pics?
Not sure whether John ships internationally, but if you look up John@PC's stuff, he makes some really nice humidifiers, digitally controlled, that worked beautifully in my smaller caves, converted from refrigerators. He also makes an outstanding fogger for larger applications - I have one now, in my pilot cave, about 220 c.f. Performing brilliantly. Anyway, very much worth considering, IMO.
Shane, two tbsp salt in 9 liters sounds a bit on the high side. If I recall correctly, I use 2-1/3 tbsp for 3 gallons (~12 liters) - not a lot less, but enough to be significant. I would recommend backing down the salt a bit more gently than cutting in half - salt is a necessary part of the development of the cheese, not just a flavor agent. And the difference of a tsp or two can be dramatic in the saltiness of the final product. For example, 3 tbsp in my Caerphilly is painfully salty; 2-1/3 is superb.
Jump right in Paul. :D Thanks for your advice. Yeah, I agree the humidity level doesn't seem right. I have put another humidity sensor (the indoor display of a weather station) and it is actually reporting 70-75%. That is a bit more like it. So there must be something wrong with the sensor on my humidity controller. I have another sensor I planned on using for logging, so I will set it up and see if I can get some agreement between two of the sensors. Maybe things aren't as bad as I thought. I will check out John@PC's posts.
Awakephd - Thanks for your advice. I never considered what the cheese may need with the salt content. It is a good point. I guess I'll scale it back a less aggressive. I'm sure I'll find a balance. I'll just have to keep making them until I get it right. :D
All the beer best.
Shane
Probably a bit off topic but...
Salt - an amazing substance. It does something to our taste buds that helps bring the flavour out in the food it is mixed with. It's an amazing preservative - desiccant - Mould inhibiter (depending on the mould) . it also stops the further creation of lactic acid, it aids in the removal of whey from the curds. As far as cheese making goes it is essential. BUT ......
Too little and it doesn't or cant do it's job and too much affects the taste, hardens up the texture and destroys the very cultures you are trying to protect and feed. If you can get a copy - I bought mine from Kindle. Mastering Artisan Cheese by Gianaclis Caldwell where she goes in depth in explaining the role of salt. It also comes down to personal taste and why we choose to make cheese instead of just going to Woolies and buying their sad and sorry excuse for cheese - Coles is no better. Sorry I'll stop ranting.
BTW my Stilton attempt was from this book as well..
-- Mal 8)
Thanks for the explanation Mal. I'm learning something new everyday which is great. I don't have the Gianaclis Caldwell book yet. I have only have the Ricki Carroll one at this stage. I'll probably buy an electronic copy as you've done as it is much easier to cart my tablet around with me.
I have been doing some fault finding on my humidity problems. It turns out there must have been a bad contact in the crimped joiner I put between the controller and sensor. Unfortunately the controller isn't smart enough to detect a missing humidity sensor, only the temperature sensor. I have re-terminated it and I get reasonable agreement between the weather station, the logging sensor and the controller. I'm sitting around 65% at the moment, but fogger is doing a rubbish job at the moment. My makeshift float is not keeping the fogger at a good depth in the water. I'll have to resolve that and permanently mount my sensors in a good spot within the fridge. I'm glad it was as simple as that though.
Shane
And with a bit of airflow, now I can reach my 85% control target. :D
Shane
I read an article recently suggested that soft cheeses are the most likely to house pathogens and that it's not the age of the cheese that matters. It's the final pH of the cheese that matters. I went looking for the article, and wouldn't you know it, I can't find it. Does anyone have experience or evidence to suggest where the truth lies?
Frodage - I believe it's generally soft cheeses that tend to have pathogens, yes. I'd speculate one reason may simply be because in a more liquid environment bugs are more likely to spread. (In the hard cheeses of course you've already cultured your milk, and curdled it, and cooked and stirred the curds over a period of a few hours, thus getting the good cheese bacteria to spread right throughout).
I believe as you say it's the final pH that matters, but then that tends to go with age. The whole story of milk turning into cheese, and then cheese turning into, well, older cheese, is a story of acidification. Hence the oft quoted FDA rule about raw milk cheeses being fine if they're 60 days or older.
It looks like a knee jerk reaction is being taken after these cases. Raw milk is to be either made safe (I'm assuming they mean pasteurized) or a bittering agent added to make the raw milk unpalatable.
Here's the article.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-12-28/victorian-government-new-regulations-for-raw-milk/5990172 (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-12-28/victorian-government-new-regulations-for-raw-milk/5990172)
Shane
QuoteThis means that the smallest amount will make the individual recoil in horror
Wow. They've achieved this with me, anyway. Though I doubt they meant "bureaucrat pseudo-scientist" when they wrote "smallest amount." I feel so badly for you and your compatriots, Shane, I really do. I thought we had it bad. Why bother with mere bittering - why not poison the milk outright, to really bring home the point? I'm profoundly moved, to think of the devastation this will cause to such noble people, trying to do the right thing; to waste such precious oceans of nature's perfect food.
It's a shame on our species that practice, no matter how ridiculous or ill-founded, becomes paradigm. How what should be patent ignorance becomes received wisdom.
Yeah, it is a true Nanny state. :(
Shane
Quote from: TimT on December 14, 2014, 09:25:58 PM
Frodage - I believe it's generally soft cheeses that tend to have pathogens, yes. I'd speculate one reason may simply be because in a more liquid environment bugs are more likely to spread. (In the hard cheeses of course you've already cultured your milk, and curdled it, and cooked and stirred the curds over a period of a few hours, thus getting the good cheese bacteria to spread right throughout).
I believe as you say it's the final pH that matters, but then that tends to go with age. The whole story of milk turning into cheese, and then cheese turning into, well, older cheese, is a story of acidification. Hence the oft quoted FDA rule about raw milk cheeses being fine if they're 60 days or older.
Just to clarify, I think the problem is not the cheese being soft in a generic way, but specifically the type of cheese that gets liquid-y as it matures (Brie, Camembert, etc.). I was just reading in Gianaclis Caldwell's book about these cheeses, and learned that the molds working on the paste are responsible for a rise in pH, to the point that the cheese may even become neutral to slightly basic rather than acidic. This rise in pH is directly linked to the paste becoming liquid-y -- the protein structures become hydrophilic as the pH rises above a certain point.
I sent in a message to the minister responsible for this decision (Jane Garrett). Haven't got a response (it's still early, and it is a holiday period). It is definitely a knee jerk response - there's a federal inquiry into raw milk underway and she has said that they're not prepared to wait for the results of that inquiry before making a decision! Who needs facts when fear will do the job just as well? Basically I've asked her to reconsider her decision and noted that a better response would be public education - concluding that a government that does not respect its citizens to make responsible decisions for themselves would not get my vote.
The regulations haven't got through yet. They have to go through the lower house (in whatever form they finally take) and then go to the upper house, which, as fellow Victorians would be aware, are not controlled by Labor. Some astute emails to the relevant upper house ministers would be well worth it.
For what it's worth, Jane Garrett has said she is also going to take into consideration the requirements of cheesemakers for raw milk cheese. I doubt this means she wants raw milk to remain widely available in the way it is now and it will almost definitely favour big corporate cheesemakers, not amateurs like us. So it could be back to the old situation of farm gate deals, having a friend who knows a friend who owns a cow or a goat or whatever.
I'd like to gather any and all views on this so I might start another thread on it soon.
Thanks Tim. I'm not knowledgeable on the subject unfortunately, so can't really make the argument. Maybe it is worthwhile starting a petition on change.org? They have a very big membership base and seem to make a lot of things happen.
Shane
At least SA hasn't had the same knee-jerk reaction, I'm in NSW and have never seen raw milk available anywhere in any form.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-12-29/raw-milk-laws-to-remain-the-same-in-sa/5991862 (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-12-29/raw-milk-laws-to-remain-the-same-in-sa/5991862)
That is good to hear about SA.
Earlier in this discussion Mysost was up...
Just to clarify:
Myseost (also called Brunost / Brown Cheese) made of pure goat whey with added goat's milk and goat's cream is called Ekte Geitost (Genuine Goat-cheese) while myseost of cows whey with added cow's milk and cream and goat's milk is called Gudbrandsdalsost (Gudbrandsdal-cheese).
In real life our Norwegian neighbours (and people here in Denmark) often call this brown caramel-like cheasy stuff Myseost, Brunost or Geitost - regardless of the milk/whey being used.
:-) Danbo
Cool. Thanks for the clarification Danbo. I might have to give it a go one day. Are they an acquired taste?
Shane
Well... The consistency is a bit like semihard earwax... The taste is sweet and caramelized... I hope not to offend any Norwegians. ;-)
I didn't like it when I was a child. Now I like it a bit more but it is still not my favorite. :o
I have made it a few times myself. The first time it just went crumbly and did not at all have the right consistency. The second time I added cream at the end of the process and continued heating until it had the right consistency.
Prepare to heat and stir for a couple of hours... The yield is not that high...
:-) Danbo
Thanks. I think I'll pass then. Sounds like Vegemite. Only us Australians are crazy enough to eat it. Speaking of Vegemite, has someone tried incorporating it into a hard cheese make (maybe as a rub)? It goes really well with cheddar. :D
Shane
Still sounds like a fun cheese, and it appeals to me because I've also been getting into making fudge.
The idea with fudge is to dissolve sugar in cream and then heat it up to soft-ball stage, around 116 degrees celsius (I think - I don't have my book with me to double check those temps), at which point the sugar crystals formed will cool down to a butter-like consistency.
Heat it up much beyond that temperature and the texture of the finished product will be brittle and crunchy. Don't get to that temperature and the texture will be too thin and syruppy.
Not especially complicated - it's all in the temperature control.
With mysost I imagine the process is very similar, since the idea seems to be to boil down the whey so the concentrations of the sweet lactose and galactose sugars become higher and higher and you get to the point where you're not just boiling off water, but you're changing the sugars by boiling them at higher and higher temps until you reach the soft-ball stage.
Quote from: Shane on December 30, 2014, 09:59:56 AM
Thanks. I think I'll pass then. Sounds like Vegemite. Only us Australians are crazy enough to eat it. Speaking of Vegemite, has someone tried incorporating it into a hard cheese make (maybe as a rub)? It goes really well with cheddar. :D
Shane
I'm going to dissolve marmite in my brine. Thanks for the idea Shane! 8)
No problems. Let me know how it turns out. I wouldn't mind trying anothe like that. How will you adjust for the saltiness of the Marmite with respect to the salt level of the brine or are you already close to saturation anyway?
Shane
Another update on this saga. Raw milk is pretty much dead in Victoria. It is now required to have a gag inducing additive added to the milk to prevent consumption. A new article raises concerns for other states. There are promising signs for cheesemakers though.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-02-02/nrn-raw-milk-cheese/6061270 (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-02-02/nrn-raw-milk-cheese/6061270)
Tim - Did you ever get a reply out of the responsible minister?
Shane
Pity you have to be a multi-million $$ producer to be able to follow those guidelines - Still nothing for us little Guys and Gals. Try selling cheese you make at home say at a 'Farmers' market - get caught OOOhhhh its Milk for crying out loud, not crack !!! How many cars kill people Every DAY ?? and we don't ban that. How many die of Smoking induced illnesses ?? - it's still legal.
http://www.health.qld.gov.au/foodsafety/documents/fs-52-rawmilk.pdf (http://www.health.qld.gov.au/foodsafety/documents/fs-52-rawmilk.pdf)
In Queensland, all milk sold (except goats milk) must be pasteurised. Unpasteurised goats milk is permitted
subject to compliance with the dairy scheme which includes strict requirements for testing, appropriate
recall procedures, and labelling. The statement 'Caution— This milk is an unpasteurised product and may
contain organisms that could be injurious to health' is required to be included on the product.
So Goat poop it cleaner is it ??
Raw milk is known to carry several disease causing organisms including:
Campylobacter jejuni (campylobacteriosis)
Salmonella
Listeria monocytogenes (listeriosis)
Escherichia coli
so does seafood and apperntly a range of Resturants
Arrggg !
I think the problem is there is no money in raw milk for the government. Look at alcohol, cars, cigarettes, gambling. They are all huge money spinners for the government despite the human safety implications. Raw milk on the other hand they find it easier to ban rather than finding a workable solution to a perceived problem.
Shane
I find it astonishing that anyone would advocate the addition of a bittering agent to raw milk. On the other hand, if the bittering agent remains in the whey, would the taste of the cheese be affected?
I'm not sure I'd be willing to try. :-) I suspect there isn't actually much milk available with the bittering agent. They were using the bath milk product as a workaround to the ban on raw milk for consumption.
Shane
Why can't we be more like our kiwi friends.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-02-09/raw-milk-vending-machine/6080148 (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-02-09/raw-milk-vending-machine/6080148)
Shane
It was my understanding that cheese was safe to eat when being made from raw milk as long as the cheese is aged at least 60 days.
So I have a question and I'm amazed that no one has asked it. If there are provisions to made raw milk cheeses - but it is illegal to sell Raw milk for consumption. Am I allowed to buy raw milk to make cheese ? If the answer is Yes then is the Farmer allowed to Sell it to me ? Just sounds like that only 'registered' cheese maker can 'Buy' and farmers only 'Sell' to to them. -- Doesn't help me I still have to use the same old crap !
-- Mal
No idea Mal. I've only heard of there being one legally sold raw milk cheese in the country. It is a blue, very expensive and I'm not sure it's actually available yet. Where they get the milk from I wouldn't have a clue. It would be nice if there was a registration process for home cheesemaker's to allow it. Somehow I have my doubts that our needs will be in the pollie's minds though.
Shane
Depends on where you are. In Washington State it is legal to sell raw milk and I buy it on a regular basis but only to make cheeses that I will age for at least 60 days. I've read that the bacteria that could be in raw milk cannot survive more than 60 days in cheese.
Al - Unfortunately here in Australia we appear to be a bit backwards when it comes to raw milk.
Shane
That's a shame. I have a farm about 10 miles from me that sells me raw milk for $7.00 USD a gallon and, having tasted it, it's delicious!!!
Sounds brilliant. I struggle to even get unhomogenised milk.
Shane
For whatever 'Real' reason the Australian Government has, it has managed to raise the notoriety of milk to that of illicit Class A narcotics in both legally and availability. And, I'm sorry but don't give me the long transport times as a reason as interstate trucking companies carry fresh seafood to the inner reaches of this country. And refridgeration is better than the 1940's - heck I'm sure that even milk testing is better than the 'lick it and see' mentality the government seems to think the dairy producers use. I know several in my area and your kitchens are dirtier than their dairies !! no offence intended just a comaritive statement - I just see it as an amazing campaign of public misinformation.
Angry still >:(
-- Mal
Agreed. How about chicken as another comparison? It can be extremely toxic if not cooked correctly. Isn't making cheese from raw milk the same? You just need to 'cook' the cheese for the right amount of time to make it perfectly safe. Chicken is freely available for purchase.
Shane
Quote from: Shane on February 10, 2015, 06:39:08 AM
Agreed. How about chicken as another comparison? It can be extremely toxic if not cooked correctly. Isn't making cheese from raw milk the same? You just need to 'cook' the cheese for the right amount of time to make it perfectly safe. Chicken is freely available for purchase.
Shane
In fact, chicken is freely available ...
raw! But I suppose the difference is that milk is generally considered ready-to-consume with no further processing, while very few if any would consider consuming chicken without first cooking ...
The proposed new laws in Victoria haven't, to my knowledge, yet been passed or come into force; I know of a couple of stores where you should still be able to get raw milk! :p Still think these laws are stupid and paranoid, still want them changed.
And yes, I think it's legal to get raw goat milk in Victoria; my dream is to find a good local supplier and become friends with them....
Everything I've read indicates that the law has already been passed. It's interesting that it's still available. Maybe it has the gag inducing additive? I like your plans. :-)
Shane
Well I haven't gagged on drinkin' it....
That's good to hear. :D
Shane
It seems more makers are using raw milk for specialty cheese.
Raw cheesemaking sector expected to grow after food safety rule change lifts ban on some cheeses
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-04-11/australian-raw-cheese-food-safety-rule-change/6383784 (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-04-11/australian-raw-cheese-food-safety-rule-change/6383784)
That is excellent news. Hopefully the number of makers increase. It's interesting to see that they are moulding the blue cheese in PVC pressure pipe.
Shane
I have set my PVR to record it. It's on at noon today.
Quote from: awakephd on February 10, 2015, 05:00:30 PM
In fact, chicken is freely available ... raw! But I suppose the difference is that milk is generally considered ready-to-consume with no further processing, while very few if any would consider consuming chicken without first cooking ...
They do, however, sell raw chicken eggs which are used, uncooked, in mayonnaise, aiolas, remoulade, and a host of other items.