Hello all,
The last two (and first two) batches of cheese I made, firstly a mozzarella that wasn't entirely successful and currently a feta that is draining/setting/forming in the feta baskets. The problem I appear to be having is the curds not holding their shape very well after I've cut them. I've checked for a clean break and it appears to be ok, although to trained eyes perhaps they're not right. However, I have been leaving them to solidify for over an hour - as much as an hour twenty. I am planning on trying the flocculation method next cheese making day.
The feta I've been making today, I used 4 litres of full fat pasturised milk and used 1/8 teaspoon of calcium chloride and a "drop" of mesophilic culture mixed in with 1/4 cup of demineralised water. I used 1/4 rennet tablet with 1/4 cup of demineralised water, as per the recipe I've got for feta (although this is a slight variation - I'm using feta baskets not a cheese cloth bag (http://greenlivingaustralia.com.au/cheeserecipe.html#feta). I'm wondering if perhaps 1/4 tablet of rennet wasn't enough or maybe I wasn't leaving it in enough? The curds kind of held shape until I stirred them and then they mostly broke apart into smaller bits. This same thing occurred when I tried the mozzarella.
So, might it be I'm not leaving the milk long enough to form stronger curds? Am I perhaps not using enough rennet for 4 litres of milk? Something else? Does it matter greatly if the curds did break apart?
Thanks very much in advance!
welly
Oh, just further to this, I wonder if why the curds didn't firm up a bit is possibly because the rennet tablet hadn't fully dissolved in the water? There were still a few grains in it that wouldn't dissolve. Might look for liquid rennet or let the tablet dissolve longer.
I have no experience with rennet tabs but I think that it is a good idea to use the flocculation method aka spinning bowl technique next time.
If you need any help regarding spinning bowl, flocculation factor etc. just lt me know. Normally I'm happy if flocculation happens after 10-15 minutes (but I have also experienced longer floc.times from time to time. Follow the instructions on the tablets and don't always trust the recipe.
When you have the time it took to flocculate from when you added the rennet multiply this with an appropriate floc.factor for the type of cheese that you are making - then you know when to cut (from the time you added the rennet). Check for a clean break anyway...
Take a look at this page: http://www.littlegreencheese.com/2013/03/flocculation-method-for-better-curd.html (http://www.littlegreencheese.com/2013/03/flocculation-method-for-better-curd.html)
Sorry if you already know how to use "the spinning bowl"...
:-) Danbo
I'm certainly no expert----but the type milk you are using may cause some of these problems----no ultra high pasteurized milk --------pasteurized/homogenized milk, the curds have a tendency to shatter, you pretty much have to live with that---sometimes trying a different dairy will help. Raw milk seems to make the best curds, followed by creamline (un-homigenized) sometimes called creamtop. Out dated rennet.
Qdog
I agree Qdog.
A small amount of calcium chloride can also help...
:-) Danbo
Ps.: I'm definitely no expert either.
Thanks for the advice, chaps! I'm going to look into seeing what other milk is available. I know I can get non-homogenised milk from the supermarket although it costs a bit more. I'll give it a try for my next batch and see if it makes any difference! These early batches are just about getting my technique and processes in place and if this feta turns out to be tasty despite the "curd issue", I'm fine with that! It's all good fun! :)
Cheers
I'm sure the Feta will be fine. :-) Let us know how it turns out the next time...
Quote from: Danbo on January 24, 2015, 12:24:50 PM
I'm sure the Feta will be fine. :-) Let us know how it turns out the next time...
Looks alright! Looks like cheese!
(http://i.imgur.com/XPp9BEi.jpg)
It's in the brine now. I also made another batch from the same curds except I had them in a couple of feta baskets and didn't put a weight on them. I've cut them into cubes and just added salt rather than brining them. Want to see what difference the two methods/techniques offer!
Looks very nice! :-)
Thanks kindly! I shall look forward to giving it a taste next week!
Not sure if this will help but I am led to believe that the timing of adding the calcium chloride to the milk is critical to forming good curds. Apparently it can act adversely on the rennet if added together. Any of our experts that can chime in here?
Here are my thoughts, for what they are worth (not more than a couple of cents ... :))
#1 - if the result is cheese that tastes good, you are doing it correctly. :)
#2 - my experience with pasteurized, homogenized (P&H) milk is that the curds will very often shatter. Still can make good cheese (see #1 above).
#3 - my experience with the flocc method is that it gives not-very-clear results when using P&H milk. No matter how much or little rennet I use, I seem to get some sort of flocculation in less than five minutes, even though the curd is clearly not ready until the time that would be expected if the flocc happened at 10-15 minutes (or longer, if I go really low on the rennet). I've tried to wait until there is more than just resistance, until it is really impossible to make the bowl move ... that comes closer to the expected times, but is rather a subjective and inexact determination.
#4 - if you get your hands on raw milk, or even low-temp-pasteurized, un-homogenized milk, your world will change. Suddenly the flocc method works as expected--a very clear and distinct change in movement of the bowl at about the 10-15 minute mark, and curds are firm and not inclined to shatter.
#5 - I've read recipes that call for the CaCl at the very beginning, and recipes that call for it after fermentation and five minutes before adding rennet. I have tried both ... and can't say that I can tell the difference.
I don't know if others' experience with #3 or #5 is the same as mine, but I've certainly heard many people echoing #2 and #4. I've resigned myself to less-than-perfect curd with the P&H, and relying more on the recipe time and a clean break than on flocc testing, whenever using the milk that is normally available to me. Since nearly all of my efforts have met #1, at least for my unsophisticated palate, I have decided not to worry about it! :)
Thank you very much for the advice! Some great tips there. I will give the expensive non-homogenised milk a go next time and see what happens with that. I just had a little nibble of the cubed/salted cheese I made yesterday and while clearly not ripe it's given me a bit of an idea of the taste and it's pretty good so far! So that's that at least. I shall definitely seek out some raw milk at some point and give that a go too. I have been adding CaCl, next batch I'm going to try adding lipase to it and seeing what difference that makes to the flavour.
Thank you!
Hi Welly,
I'm very new on here and to cheesemaking in general. Are your rennet tablets from mad millie? I was using mad millie rennet tablets, but was having very long curd setting times. The strength of the mad millie tablets is very low, so you need a lot more than most of the recipes call for. I bought some liquid rennet from cheeselinks and the setting time was very close to what the recipes expected.
Good luck with your cheesemaking.
Shane
Hi Welly,
I use Valerie's' Feta recipe all the time without issue and I use this recipe every time with Lipase. There is a note right on the bottom
QuoteNote; If using lipase, you will need to increase the amount of rennet used to achieve a good clean break
. And I always increase my Rennet by 50%. If you are using GLA's rennet tablet then 1/2 a tablet is good. I don't like Mad Millies tablets, as Shane says, they are too weak for some of the recipes, especially for the hard long ripening cheeses - they are very bitter in that instance. I know that postage is expensive from GLA but their liquid rennet is great and their tablet performance is pretty consistent as well.
Hope that helps.
--Mal
Adding lipase really does magic to the flavor - I always use lipase when making feta. Well except for last time and the flavor was a bit boring...
I use a pure kd-goat lipase which gives a sharp intense flavor.
:-) Danbo
Quote from: Shane on January 25, 2015, 03:42:30 AM
Hi Welly,
I'm very new on here and to cheesemaking in general. Are your rennet tablets from mad millie? I was using mad millie rennet tablets, but was having very long curd setting times. The strength of the mad millie tablets is very low, so you need a lot more than most of the recipes call for. I bought some liquid rennet from cheeselinks and the setting time was very close to what the recipes expected.
Good luck with your cheesemaking.
Shane
My rennet was from Green Living Australia. It was probably fine rennet but either I didn't leave it long enough or the milk I'm using is crap (it's just Woolworths full fat, pasturised milk). I'm going to try the non-homogenised milk they sell and perhaps the Paris Creek milk unless I can find a source of raw milk up here in Darwin!
Cheers
I like lipase in fresh or short-curing cheeses -- for example, I like adding it to mozarella. I suspect it will also be good in extra hard grating cheese where intense flavor is desirable; I plan to give that a try in my next parma-style. But my experience with adding it to medium-aging cheeses -- a 2-month-old Lancashire and a 6-month old Manchego -- suggests that it can get REALLY strong, even at low dosing rates. I used less than half of what the recipe called for in the Manchego, and it is almost too strong to eat. (Though I've been thinking it might be good in a salad, almost like a blue.) YMMV ...
Awakephd: What kind of strong taste? Like an old strong cheese or a strong goat-like-flavor. I love strong aged cheeses... :)
Australia Day !! - Celebrating this wonderful, wide, wild and Beautiful place on Earth !
Danbo, I'm not quite sure how to describe it. At first, it doesn't seem that strong ... but then it hits with a sharp bite at the back of the throat. It almost reminds me of an over-the-top blue type of bite, at least more like that than like a sharp cheddar. It's not a taste that I dislike ... but it is too much (for me) for a table cheese. Again, might be perfect for use crumbled on a salad.
Mal, something tells me -- just a vague notion, really -- not sure what makes me think it -- but I wonder if it might be Australia day? :)
Have a wonderful day celebrating your grand and glorious country -- a place I very much want to visit one of these days!
Mate !!, Have beer and Cheese - place to crash if needed.
-- Mal
Quote from: awakephd on January 24, 2015, 07:20:31 PM
#3 - my experience with the flocc method is that it gives not-very-clear results when using P&H milk. No matter how much or little rennet I use, I seem to get some sort of flocculation in less than five minutes...
Crumbs! I wish I had known this on Saturday! The first time I used the flocc method (we only get pasteurized milk in the Great White North) and I was surprised to see a five minute slow down in the spin, but I cut the curd at 20 minutes like I thought I was supposed to. Now I'm worried for my Gorgonzola :'(
Hey Mal,
You'll be pleased to know----For the first time I own a calendar that shows Australia Day---have had some with Canada day----you guys down under are getting the recognition you deserve.
Qdog
Thanks. WooHoo - We've grown up !! Was a good day. Cold Beer - Hot snags and three Days off (Long Weekend) who could ask for more !!
-- Mal
Quote from: Frodage on January 27, 2015, 01:22:51 AM
Quote from: awakephd on January 24, 2015, 07:20:31 PM
#3 - my experience with the flocc method is that it gives not-very-clear results when using P&H milk. No matter how much or little rennet I use, I seem to get some sort of flocculation in less than five minutes...
Crumbs! I wish I had known this on Saturday! The first time I used the flocc method (we only get pasteurized milk in the Great White North) and I was surprised to see a five minute slow down in the spin, but I cut the curd at 20 minutes like I thought I was supposed to. Now I'm worried for my Gorgonzola :'(
Were you making the two-day Gorgonzola recipe? In any case, you might or might not get exactly what you aimed for ... but as long as #1 is okay, all is good. :)
Hi Awake,
I was making the gorgonzola dolce from Ricky Carroll's website - the one day version. It's my first time making a blue. So far, it looks like a cheese...
Can you share Valerie's Feta or tell me what to search for other than "Feta"
Quote from: OzzieCheese on January 25, 2015, 04:38:08 AM
Hi Welly,
I use Valerie's' Feta recipe all the time without issue and I use this recipe every time with Lipase. There is a note right on the bottom
QuoteNote; If using lipase, you will need to increase the amount of rennet used to achieve a good clean break
. And I always increase my Rennet by 50%. If you are using GLA's rennet tablet then 1/2 a tablet is good. I don't like Mad Millies tablets, as Shane says, they are too weak for some of the recipes, especially for the hard long ripening cheeses - they are very bitter in that instance. I know that postage is expensive from GLA but their liquid rennet is great and their tablet performance is pretty consistent as well.
Hope that helps.
--Mal
Her eis a link the Valerie's recipes
http://www.greenlivingaustralia.com.au/cheeserecipe.html (http://www.greenlivingaustralia.com.au/cheeserecipe.html)
This method uses the hanging bag method to develop the acid. To which then the cubes are direct salted. You can instead of that, use the square feta molds to drain and use a brine solution instead of directly salting.
-- Mal
Hi Welly,
It seems that your thread got "segwayed" a bit (I think that Australian for "my boom-a-rang didn't come back" ::). I love the taste of lipase too, but getting back to curd integrity there was a lot of good "food for thought" suggestions here. Maybe someone mentioned it but stirring technique is VERY important. I made cheese for more than a year until I learned proper stirring. Yes, if you're using raw (or cream-line) milk, calcium chloride, etc. you should have better curd integrity but don't overlook how your stir. When I switched to a silicone cake spatula and used a very gentle and slow "jiggling" during early stirring I experienced much less shattering. If you use a ladle make sure you push the curds with the back of the ladle (if you use the front the sharp edge will cut the fragile curds).
Hello Everyone
I have made a cheese that I have three options on cream cheese, firm cheese, grating cheese) depedning on the treatment after draining. All are good but there is a problem with the set of the curd.... I loose some of the fats I think.
I use whole milk (cow)(standardized)(17lts), 1.2lts of full cream (47% butter fats). I treat the milk with CaCl (at the rate recommended) and calf lipase (1/4 tsp). I use liquid rennet and does with the amount for 25lts (due to the cream). The starter is a mesophilic type. Heating the milk to 86F before adding the rennet and then transfer to the "cold room" (61F) and put into a thermostatically controlled box set to 72F. After 14hrs the curds and whey are still warm (77F). I can get a clean break on the top of the curd but when I start to transfer to drain I find that the curd is barely set lower down in the container.
As I said I loose some fats but not too much. I would like to get a nice clear whey....so what do you recommend?
This yields a nice strong cheese. After drying and maturing it for 6 months it produces a really good grating cheese that is similar to Parmesan in character. To get this I put it into a 2Lb mold and press with 35Kg of load. Keeping it less time and less air drying gives good results as well.
For the cream cheese, once it is drained and salted (+garlic) I put it into silicone muffin molds and then freeze it. After defrosting it drops some more whey. Discard this and then reconstitute it by beating with a fork. Ends up very smooth. Chill in the fridge for a really good stiff cream cheese.
Do you dilute the rennet? I typically take 1/4 cup of water, add a few drops of milk (on Pav's suggestion that it should nullify high levels of chlorine) and add my 1/2 tsp. to that for 3 gallons of milk.