I'm four days into my first attempt at Camembert-style, more-or-less following the 200 Easy Cheeses recipe. I made a very small batch -- just a gallon of milk, producing two small wheels about 5.5" (140mm) diameter and about 1.25" (32mm) thick. After flipping several times in the molds, I removed them, checked pH (right on the money at 4.7), salted each side, and let them dry until they were moist but not wet. Now they are in ripening boxes in the 54˚F (12˚C) cave.
Here are the questions:
1) Unfortunately, I do not (yet) have a way to measure the RH directly. The boxes are showing some misting on the sides, but no significant accumulation of moisture in the bottom. Does that sound about right?
2) The surface of the cheese seems damp; should I be blotting them dry, or is this what I want at this stage?
3) No evident PC yet, but I think it is probably still a bit too early ... yes?
I'll attach some pictures ... if these progress properly. If not, I'll pretend I know nothing whatsoever about this thread. :)
Awakephd: It sounds like you are on your way to great Camemberts. You should begin to se a little moist in the bottom of the containers when the PC starts to develop.
Mal (Aussiecheese) has done some very fine Camemberts - try to PM him if you don't get any responses here.
:-) Danbo
All sounds good to me. I'd be flipping them and wiping out the box once or twice daily but I wouldn't be drying the cheeses.
If you do think that they are too wet you can crack the lid a little but, from your description, they sound alright.
Hopefully, you will start to see a hint of white fuzz soon. Good luck.
The things you describe sound good. At 4 days they will still be moist but as the mold takes over to moisture will lessen. At this stage I'd wipe out the ripening container daily and turn the cheeses. Just in the middle of stirring my cheddar and can write a more detailed entry if you need more info.
-- Mal
Once the cam is covered with PC, make sure to keep it cold. I thought mine wasn't soft enough and removed it to room temp, and it got very soft (slip skin) in a couple of days.
Don't age this cheese. Consider cutting at 3-4 weeks, assuming you get good PC growth in the first week.
The trick is ... and when you see it your self - is to move them to the colder fridge 4DegC is when they are nicely covered but not overly covered. For me, and I age mine out 6-7 weeks is as soon as there is a light covering all over then I move them from the 10-12 Deg to the cooler one. One of the By-products of the ripening process is water vapour. So once I move them into the cooler fridge I wipe out the containers and turn the cheese every other day. This helps keep the humidity up and the mould from growing between the gaps of the shelf in the ripening container. There will be ammonia produced as it is this that raises the pH of the cheese as it ripens but the opening of the container helps with that as well. It's a bit difficult to explain quickly but, I found opening the container every day over ripened them too quickly - with every other day it's almost like they were holding their breath. Sorry if that is a bit confusing..
-- Mal
Just an update -- the camemberts are coming up on one week; for the past two or three days, the white mold has been growing, with some geo (I think) underneath. The picture doesn't really show it very well, but as of this morning, a light covering of the mold has covered maybe 50% of the surface. I'm thinking it still needs to go a bit longer before moving to the cold refrigerator ... ?
I must say, I didn't realize how much fun it would be to make these cams, as well as a small blue that I made a day later (which is just starting to show some blue in the cracks) -- every day is an adventure, checking to see how they have progressed! Of course, it remains to be seen whether they actually taste good ...
Quote from: awakephd on February 09, 2015, 03:42:26 PM
Just an update -- the camemberts are coming up on one week; for the past two or three days, the white mold has been growing, with some geo (I think) underneath. The picture doesn't really show it very well, but as of this morning, a light covering of the mold has covered maybe 50% of the surface. I'm thinking it still needs to go a bit longer before moving to the cold refrigerator ... ?
I must say, I didn't realize how much fun it would be to make these cams, as well as a small blue that I made a day later (which is just starting to show some blue in the cracks) -- every day is an adventure, checking to see how they have progressed! Of course, it remains to be seen whether they actually taste good ...
Nice!
It's an adventure flipping those guys, isn't it? Mine were fairly squishy at first, then they firmed up, then after the PC got going they got squishy again.
My opinion, based on just a couple that I made, is don't let it go much longer before you put it in the fridge. Maybe 1 or 2 days max.
I agree with Pastpawn: A day or two more before moving them to fridge.
I have made some small boxes to ease the daily flipping of bries. I simply flip the entire box - works great. I have drilled 4 holes to enable a bit of airexchange. The boxes are from IKEA.
:-) Danbo
Day 8, and I believe it is time to move to the cold fridge. The surface is nearly completely covered with PC, but the cheese still feels somewhat firm.
Quote from: awakephd on February 11, 2015, 01:12:42 AM
Day 8, and I believe it is time to move to the cold fridge. The surface is nearly completely covered with PC, but the cheese still feels somewhat firm.
I was at that exact point. I put them in the fridge, waited a couple of nervous days, and decided they wanted to be warm again. Mistake.
Get them in the fridge and give them 2 weeks.
Wow, that was a fast answer -- and you anticipated my next question (how long do these need to gestate?) -- two weeks, eh? I can't wait! Is there anything in particular that will help me to know they are ready, short of cutting into them -- will I be able to tell that they are getting squishy under the rind, for example?
One more question: I assume I should continue flipping regularly ... but how often? I have been flipping these twice a day up to now.
Quote from: awakephd on February 11, 2015, 01:22:32 AM
Wow, that was a fast answer -- and you anticipated my next question (how long do these need to gestate?) -- two weeks, eh? I can't wait! Is there anything in particular that will help me to know they are ready, short of cutting into them -- will I be able to tell that they are getting squishy under the rind, for example?
One more question: I assume I should continue flipping regularly ... but how often? I have been flipping these twice a day up to now.
You should have been flipping daily. But now I suggest putting in the fridge and just let them go. Maybe flip every few days, I really don't know.
These cheeses are so good. I sure hope yours turns out. They should be nice and soft in the middle, but with the skin still happily clinging to the cheese inside. When cut, there should be a great earthy taste with just mild (or nonexistent) ammonia. If you get the ammonia smell, walk away and come back in 5 minutes, it will dissipate from the cheese.
Looking great!
As far as time goes, I find about 6-7 weeks total to be good. That, of course, depends on how you like your cheese.
Go by the feel.
6-7 weeks! Are you trying to torture me?? Since when does cheese require waiting that long ... oh, right. Never mind ...
:)
I do the ripening process very different. Once the PC grows I pet it down and flip them every day for a week. Then I wrap them in cheese paper and keep them in the cave to soften. Once soft I box them and move them to the cold fridge.
Hi AL,
maybe try this instead of
QuoteOnce the PC grows I pet it down aand flip them every day for a week. Then I wrap them in cheese paper and keep them in the cave to soften. Once soft I box them and move them to the cold fridge.
1. Let the PC grow in the 10-12 DegC environment.
2. Once the PC grows - and I haven't found a good way to describe how much - about nice ripe peach outside fuzziness - Move them to the colder environment.
3. I normally leave them in their maturing containers at this stage and I don't wrap them.
4. Wipe them out and flip the cheeses every 2nd day until desired softness is attained. Again I don't wrap them unless I'm giving them to someone.
Now being in the colder environment will increase your aging to desired softness time but, it dramatically reduces the chance of Skin Slip with is normally caused by the accellerated, over-production of Ammonia.
A bit of what 'Skin Slip" is.... This is cause by the resolubilsation process going too fast - the process that makes the cheese go gooey. After the surface Lactate (Lactic acid) has been consumed by the molds, making Carbon Dioxide and water , the lactate moves from the core out. Then the molds go to work on the proteins and start producing ammonia which moves from the outside in. Since it is an alkaline it raises the pH. As the pH raises the protiens are moved further away from their isoelectic point and go from water hating to water loving (hydrophilic) and bind water to themselves, basically casein going back into solution - hence the cheese goes gooey. It is sooo cool and one of the most complicated ripening process - washed rinds do something simular.
There are a few other reactions occuring like the buffering action of the Calcium Phosphate and the production of ammonia outstrips this buffering capability. So its this ammonia production and buffering process we are attemting to control with the lowering of the aging temperature.
I hope that sort of makes sence.
-- Mal
Mal, makes perfect sense however; I don't have the room in a cold fridge to age them. One is in the kitchen, full, and the other is a "drinks" fridge in my utility room, full. I'm aware of slip skin but have not had that problem with this cheese. I find it takes several weeks for them to ripen at the 54° f of my cheese cave but finish with a very creamy taste and a reasonably thin skin. ;D
HI Al, Thats what i like about making cheese. It's all great in theory until the first curd is cut. In your case I wouldn't change a thing :) Another thing I found out - I love this book "Mastering Artisan Cheese" is that the more cream (Fat) you have in you milk the more stable the cheese is, the more firmer it will be and the longer it takes to ripen. See... there are no real definitive answers, .... it all depends. I went back through my notes and found that when I changed my milk to a better, un-homogenised, creamier milk the better my Cams became. Can't make good cheese from crap milk.
-- Mal 8)
Here is one of the cams at 5 weeks. The picture doesn't really do it justice -- it makes it look as though there is quite a large part in the middle that is still firm. In actuality, not so much -- biting into this is like biting into processed cheese spread, as far as texture goes. Fortunately, it tastes quite a bit better! Still, I'm thinking next time I may wait a day or so longer before moving to the cold fridge.
Andy, A cheese for your patience.. My wife loves them like that - just firm in the middle but spreadable. Me, I like to use a straw :). I think your process worked very well.
-- Mal
Looks good and it sounds like it was worth the wait. Congratulations on your first and please accept a cheese.
Thank you for the cheeses!
Congratulations!
One more cheese for you! :-)
Thanks! I finished the last of these last night ... and haven't yet made any replacements. This make was two cheeses from just 1 gallon; I would like to try 3 cheeses from 2 gallons in the same size mold to get a bit more height, but I will need to get (or make) another mold, since I only have 2 that size.
These (https://cheeseandyogurtmaking.com/cheese-making-supplies/cheese-making-molds/cylinder-cheese-making-molds/cheese-making-mold-13-open-cylinder.html) are the ones I use for my two gallon make Andy. Three just come out perfect for two gallons of PH milk. They fit perfectly into the larger of these (http://www.thecheesemaker.com/round-cheese-gift-boxes-10-pack/) boxes.
Thanks, Al! That is the size I had in mind ...