OK, after batch #4 of carefully following directions, using good rennet and starter culture, etc, I'm starting to feel like I'm insane or doing something totally wrong.
No matter what I do, after cutting and cooking my curds, no matter how much they look like "cubes", as soon as I pour them into a colander to drain, they look like this:
(http://stellamacaroni.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/curds.jpg)
A lot of websites and image searches turn up pictures of cheesemaking where the curds look like that.
OK, great, but whenever I've had "cheese curds" aka squeaky cheese from a cheese factory, restaurant, store, etc, they look totally different - much more like "hunks of cheese." How the heck do I get my fresh curds to look like this:
(http://electron.mit.edu/~gsteele/poutine/new_photos/seattle_cheese_curds.jpg)
The bottom photo, as you can see, looks more like "cheese" instead of what I keep ending up with, which basically looks more like cottage cheese. Any ideas?
Unfortunatly it could be your milk. Curds like that usually are from raw/fresh milk.
There has been some experimentation here with the adding of cream and calcium, and slow heating to try and restore store bought milk, so do a search and see what you can find.
Dang, not what I was hoping to hear. I'm not about to start spending $12.50/gallon on raw milk!!
I agree with Tea. It can be sort of an art to get curds to remain intact after cutting and through the cooking phase. Many of us found that a rest after cutting and sometimes after each set of directional cuts can promote better curd formation and shape retention. Doesn't have to be long but 5 minutes or so.
Also, how hot are you cooking/scalding these and how fast are you raising the temps?
Keep trying! You'll get it figured out.
Ryan
The batch last night, I tried a monterey-jack style recipe. I'm heating the milk verrrrry slowly (perhaps TOO slowly? it takes me longer than 30 minutes to reach the temps in the recipes that say it should take 30 minutes to reach.) I heat it by filling the sink with water about 10 degrees above my target temp and sitting the stockpot in that. I cooked them in this case to about 100F but I have tried as high as 116F without getting much additional firmness.
I've also noticed that, no matter if I follow a recipe for Cheddar, or Monterey Jack, or any other type of cheese, it always comes out tasting the same - very cottage cheese like. I know that most of the flavor in cheese comes during the aging process but is this normal?
For me personally, I 'taste' my curd almost always to have a better handle on what is going on. Particularly as a novice cheesemaker, I like to get the most data I can. What I've found is that I rarely get a curd that squeaks when eaten until after it is cooked to somewhere around 124*. This was most noted on my Parmesan recipes however the curd is very small too. There were a couple of others but I'd have to go back to my recipes to find out for sure.
The other thing to consider as well is maybe that the acidification will also have an effect on the curd texture. If you look up recipes for traditional Cheddars or maybe even stirred curd cheddar (not farmhouse) and follow those you will get a tougher 'squeaky' curd as well. My guess is this would be similar to what you would find in the store as 'cheese curds'. I can't imagine the cheese producers would make something special. I would think they would just pull curd off of their cheddar line after salt but before they mold and press and sell it as fresh curd.
Just some thoughts for you to try! Hope it helps!
Ryan
Quote from: chilipepper on April 09, 2009, 09:32:30 PM
For me personally, I 'taste' my curd almost always to have a better handle on what is going on. Particularly as a novice cheesemaker, I like to get the most data I can. What I've found is that I rarely get a curd that squeaks when eaten until after it is cooked to somewhere around 124*. This was most noted on my Parmesan recipes however the curd is very small too. There were a couple of others but I'd have to go back to my recipes to find out for sure.
A question occurs to me on this one. I've found that the temperature of the curd, if I stick the probe of my thermometer right into a cube, is a lot lower than that of the surrounding whey. I should be measuring the temp of the curd, right?
Quote
The other thing to consider as well is maybe that the acidification will also have an effect on the curd texture. If you look up recipes for traditional Cheddars or maybe even stirred curd cheddar (not farmhouse) and follow those you will get a tougher 'squeaky' curd as well. My guess is this would be similar to what you would find in the store as 'cheese curds'. I can't imagine the cheese producers would make something special. I would think they would just pull curd off of their cheddar line after salt but before they mold and press and sell it as fresh curd.
Yeah, that's what I've always thought it was, which is why I'm curious how they get these nice "chunks" of cheese, whereas I get.... well... mush. :D The curds look like they'll hold their shape, but if I try to grab one in my fingers, boom, it turns to yogurty stuff. :(
If you want firm curd, try the cheddar recipe all the way through cheddaring - then cut into cubes. It will be squeaky. Or do a Haloumi - it has a very meatlike consistency.
I always measure just the whey, but I also heat slowly. My curd temp is usually about the same as the whey.
I know Beechers gets their milk from Green Acres Dairy in Duvall, and uses raw milk, so maybe it's the milk?
Have you tried a bit of calcium chloride?
Quote from: Rich on April 09, 2009, 09:45:53 PM
If you want firm curd, try the cheddar recipe all the way through cheddaring - then cut into cubes. It will be squeaky. Or do a Haloumi - it has a very meatlike consistency.
Do you have a link? The only recipes I can find online (including the one here) seem to skip cheddaring in favor of a "stirring" step.
I typically measure only the whey after it seperates...I guess I figure if they whey is at a specific temp and the curd is/was all at the same temp before it seperated it should be holding the same. However as you introduce temp to cook/scald then the center of the curd will certainly lag the whey temp.
I agree totally with Rich, follow the cheddar recipe ALL the way through the cheddaring process (will take a better part of a day) but you'll have what you are looking for!
Ryan
Have you seen Peter Dixon's recipe?
http://www.dairyfoodsconsulting.com/recipes_cheddar.shtml (http://www.dairyfoodsconsulting.com/recipes_cheddar.shtml)
There are a few detailed logs here of the cheddaring process with timing and pH.
Quote from: linuxboy on April 09, 2009, 09:49:39 PM
I always measure just the whey, but I also heat slowly. My curd temp is usually about the same as the whey.
I know Beechers gets their milk from Green Acres Dairy in Duvall, and uses raw milk, so maybe it's the milk?
Have you tried a bit of calcium chloride?
Yeah, I've been adding about 1/2tsp per gallon of 30% CaCl2 solution.
Funny thing is, when I do the 30-minute mozzarella, it comes out great... but obviously you're not looking for "solid curds" there... but as I heat the curds in the microwave they firm up (until they become sticky and melty eventually). So I'm leaning towards trying to cook the curds a little hotter and maybe speed up my process (so I actually reach the temp in 30 minutes) and see what happens.
I also used liquid vegetable rennet for the first time yesterday and the curds were "somewhat" firmer than when I've used Junket tablets in the past, so I'm going to try upping the amount of rennet next time and see what happens there too.
Quote from: linuxboy on April 09, 2009, 10:02:03 PM
Have you seen Peter Dixon's recipe?
http://www.dairyfoodsconsulting.com/recipes_cheddar.shtml (http://www.dairyfoodsconsulting.com/recipes_cheddar.shtml)
There are a few detailed logs here of the cheddaring process with timing and pH.
Thanks.
Hopefully the recipe scales well, I'm only doing 1-gallon batches right now. :D
Be careful with adding too much veg rennet. When I've done that, I had bitter cheese and had to throw it away. Nowadays, I use a pipette with the bare minimum ml volume recommended by the manufacturer.
Again, I find myself agreeing with Linuxboy.
I use the minimum amount of Rennet needed. Make sure its diluted 10:1
When I am milling my cheddar curds, they are the consistancy of cooked chicken.
Quote from: linuxboy on April 09, 2009, 10:09:21 PM
Be careful with adding too much veg rennet. When I've done that, I had bitter cheese and had to throw it away. Nowadays, I use a pipette with the bare minimum ml volume recommended by the manufacturer.
Unfortunately, mine didn't come with any recommendations by the manufacturer, only a blurb on a website telling me how much to use for 3 gallons of milk. :)
What Recipe are you using?? Please post it because what you have in your first picture is a totally different step that the finished cheese curds on the second
I may be wrong but I think that you need to cook your curd longer than that until they are smaller and tougher
then strain them, press them and break them apart like in this recipe http://www.cheesemaking.com//Recipe_CheeseCurds.html (http://www.cheesemaking.com//Recipe_CheeseCurds.html)
another thing is that the second picture looks more like hand cheese not cheese curds
again I might be wrong
good luck and any more information on what you did to get to this point will be great to help you out!
Well, the first picture isn't mine, but it looks similar to what I always end up with.
The recipes I have tried are:
http://www.cheeseforum.org/Recipes/Recipe_Cheddar.htm (http://www.cheeseforum.org/Recipes/Recipe_Cheddar.htm)
and
http://www.cheeseforum.org/Recipes/Recipe_Monterey_Jack.htm (http://www.cheeseforum.org/Recipes/Recipe_Monterey_Jack.htm)
And I also tried the cheese curds recipe you posted above from cheesemaking.com.
My main problem, which I believe to be related to everything else, seems to be curd firmness. I am not 100% sure I am getting a "clean break" but if I had to guess, I'd say that I am not getting a very good one... The curds, after setting, don't feel much thicker than, say, really thick yogurt. The curds do tend to look sort of rubbery, but as soon as I pour them into a colander to drain, it's like they "shatter" and turn to mush.
I Think cooking them longer will be a good idea. They don't get very "tough" at all when I cook them. In fact, it seems like cooking them hardly changes the consistency whatsoever, so I wonder if my temps are just too low or slow.
A few questions:
How many failed batches involved junket rennet?
How are you adding/stirring the rennet into the milk? Are you diluting the rennet?
How and where do you store your liquid animal rennet?
Are you stirring the curds to expel whey during the cooking process?
Are you using a pH meter?
I think we can help you solve this problem.
Greg
Quote from: thegregger on April 10, 2009, 05:47:39 AM
A few questions:
How many failed batches involved junket rennet?
3 out of 4 so far. The most recent batch, I got a much better curd set, but still not quite there. I may not have let it go long enough, or used enough rennet, as it was my first time using the liquid vegetable rennet. I used 1/8 tsp per gallon, I may add a few extra drops next time.
QuoteHow are you adding/stirring the rennet into the milk? Are you diluting the rennet?
I've been doing it the same way with the liquid as I did with the tablets: I add it to 1/4 cup of distilled room temperature water, and stir well. I do this about 15 minutes before time to add the rennet and stir every few minutes to make sure everything stays dissolved and distributed. Then, I trickle the rennet solution into the milk slowly out of a measuring cup, taking about 15-20 seconds to trickle it all in as I stir with a spoon in a back-and-forth-up-and-down kind of motion. I stir for a full minute.
QuoteHow and where do you store your liquid animal rennet?
It's vegetable rennet, but anyway, I literally just bought it a few days ago, and it's kept in a ziploc bag (in case of leaks) in the door of the fridge.
Quote
Are you stirring the curds to expel whey during the cooking process?
At first, I hadn't been, and I still might not be stirring enough. What I was doing was just sort of wiggling the stock pot around and swirling it a little, because for my first couple batches I was worried too much about curd size and breaking up the curds (which were very soft those first couple times.) If I stir too much, the curds break up into these itty bitty pieces like cottage cheese.
This could very well be one of the problems as I'm still not totally clear on what I'm supposed to "end up with" after the cooking phase. After I'm done cooking them, I have been under the impression that they should still pretty much look like this:
(http://www.cheeseforum.org/Making/images/Brining%20(0.5%20US%20Gallon,%201.9%20Litre%20Milk)%20Feta%20Cheese%20In%20Saturated%20Brine.JPG)
But mine looks like this:
(http://www.khiewchanta.com/images/cheese-curds2.jpg)
Quote
Are you using a pH meter?
Not yet. I have some pH strips and I'm planning on buying a meter in a week or two, once the budget allows. :)
Thanks for all the help, guys!
with using Junket rennet, the only times I've been truly successful in getting a good clean break is when the milk has acidified at a cool temperature for several hours/overnight first.
As I use raw milk for cheesemaking, I can't be of any more help...I'm really thinking it is the milk you are using.
Or that you are not giving it enough time to acheive a really good, clean break. The curd should separate off your knife/finger in fairly firm chunks when you lift through it. At that point, the curd should be the consistency of yogurt, but hold together better, if you know what I mean. It is a feel thing and is hard to describe. When it breaks, it is kind of like icebergs calving, with the berg breaking apart to either side of your knife.
Oh, experienced ones - any better description out there?
Stain:
Thanks for indulging me in a game of 20 questions. I've identified a few problems.
First, junket rennet should never be used for cheese-making. It's much weaker than regular rennet. Also, do not disturb your pot at all once the rennet is added. Any movement or vibration will have a negative effect on curd formation.
Second, the cooking process involves a gentle stirring of the curds. The heat and movement both help the curd expel whey, as the curd continues to acidify. During swiss-making, for instance, the curd particles shrink to the size of rice grains. It's clear from your photos that the curd is not releasing enough whey.
Having said that, store-bought milk will yield a weaker curd. It's common practice to let the curds heal for 5 minutes or so after the initial cut. When I first cut my curds for swiss cheese, the are very fragile, and I stir them very, very gently for the first several minutes in order to avoid having a giant vat of lame-tasting yogurt.
In closing, try not to alter times, temp, or amounts or rennet, etc. Too much time in the pot will yield an acid cheese, and too much rennet will create a new set of problems, as well.
Greg
Quote from: MrsKK on April 10, 2009, 02:42:35 PM
with using Junket rennet, the only times I've been truly successful in getting a good clean break is when the milk has acidified at a cool temperature for several hours/overnight first.
As I use raw milk for cheesemaking, I can't be of any more help...I'm really thinking it is the milk you are using.
Or that you are not giving it enough time to acheive a really good, clean break. The curd should separate off your knife/finger in fairly firm chunks when you lift through it. At that point, the curd should be the consistency of yogurt, but hold together better, if you know what I mean. It is a feel thing and is hard to describe. When it breaks, it is kind of like icebergs calving, with the berg breaking apart to either side of your knife.
Oh, experienced ones - any better description out there?
Thanks for the description, I feel a little better as that's what I got yesterday with my new rennet. I wasn't quite sure because when I pulled my finger out, I did get a good "break" of curds but it was like the other curds just sort of ran back in to fill the hole so I wasn't sure if it was solid enough. I guess I was expecting something more like Jell-o! :)
Quote from: thegregger on April 10, 2009, 03:16:06 PM
Second, the cooking process involves a gentle stirring of the curds. The heat and movement both help the curd expel whey, as the curd continues to acidify. During swiss-making, for instance, the curd particles shrink to the size of rice grains. It's clear from your photos that the curd is not releasing enough whey.
I think this probably has a lot to do with it. I guess there's a mental disconnect between how I get from fairly large curd cubes immediately after cutting, down to smaller, firmer little "bits" of curd as you describe after cooking, and then somehow turn that
back[/i] into larger "chunks" of curd suitable for breading and deep-frying.
The one recipe listed above specifically for cheese curds mentions pressing them for 30-60 minutes and breaking into bite-sized chunks, but the texture of the ones they show seems a lot "coarser" than what I'm used to for "squeaky cheese" so I don't know....
Thanks for all the help. My wife just arrived home from the store with a gallon of milk from a local dairy instead of the no-name megamart milk I've been trying, and I'm gonna give that a try today, and will let you all know how it turns out!!
Well, the milk is looking like a likely culprit. The new & improved (and unfortunately $4/gallon) local dairy milk, even though it's not raw milk, has produced a much firmer curd. My clean break looks like a clean break, no question about it. I'm going to cut the curds here in a few minutes and we'll see how it goes! :)
I haven't read through all of the posts, but in my experience with conventional homogenized milk, 2% works better than whole milk if you want sturdy curds. Now I am very aware this is different from milk to milk, but the local Lochmead dairy 2% gives a great curd and flavor, muuuuuuch better than their whole milk.
You also might want to give 1% a try. The yield will be lower, but from my own experience the lower the fat content the easier it is to get firm curds. With that said, I have a hard pressed skim milk loaf that's inedible--though it sure was easy to make!
Gee Stain I'm not sure what happened there. It looks more like yogurt. Almost looks like they weren't cooked enough or something. How do they taste? Do they have flavor? If they taste okay but are to soft I'd say cook them longer if they don't have any taste but are soft I'd say low acid development when ripening.
BTW I have used Junket for stired curd cheedar and Monterry Jack and had no problems. I will be trying a liquid rennet tonight for the first time - wish me luck!
Success! ;D
I'll post pictures later if I can. The combination of the firmer curd from the better milk, and the extra stirring seems to have done the trick. I also cut the curds a lot smaller initially and did the cheddaring step rather than stirred curd.
I was a little worried at first because, despite seeming to have the right rubbery texture, it still tasted juuuuust a little bit like salty cottage cheese. I am beginning to think this must just be how fresh cheese curds taste, because even my previous attempt using a Monterey Jack recipe had a very similar flavor. After breading and frying, though, they're deeeeeeeeelicious! :)
They will be a bit bland while your making them. Much more like cheese curds after a few hours in the fridge. Kind of interesting to try the curd at different stages and actually feel the whey being expelled in your mouth as you bite.
Congrat on the initial sucesses! Good luck!
Part of the problem with buying store bought milk is that there are different heat treatment procedures to pasteurize and you can accidentally buy an ultra-pasteurized milk if you are not careful. All store-bought milk is not equal! Ultra-pasteurized milk will not get a clean break, but will only jell to a yogurt-like consistency. The extra heat treatment has broken down the milk proteins.
Quote from: the_stain on April 09, 2009, 08:47:01 PM
OK, after batch #4 of carefully following directions, using good rennet and starter culture, etc, I'm starting to feel like I'm insane or doing something totally wrong.
No matter what I do, after cutting and cooking my curds, no matter how much they look like "cubes", as soon as I pour them into a colander to drain, they look like this:
(http://stellamacaroni.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/curds.jpg)
A lot of websites and image searches turn up pictures of cheesemaking where the curds look like that.
OK, great, but whenever I've had "cheese curds" aka squeaky cheese from a cheese factory, restaurant, store, etc, they look totally different - much more like "hunks of cheese." How the heck do I get my fresh curds to look like this:
(http://electron.mit.edu/~gsteele/poutine/new_photos/seattle_cheese_curds.jpg)
The bottom photo, as you can see, looks more like "cheese" instead of what I keep ending up with, which basically looks more like cottage cheese. Any ideas?
I know this is an old topic but I'm uniquely qualified to answer some of the questions of the OP.
I worked at Beecher's Handmade Cheese in 2009 as a cheesemaker. I'm intimately familiar with their processes of cheesemaking. The curds you show from Beecher's are not comparable to the ones your show as an example of what you end up with. The Beecher's curds are unhooped, unpressed, unaged flagship "curds". I use parentheses because the actual curds measure about 1/4" by 1"8" after cutting the curd mat. These curds are cooked for an hour and a half iirc (it's been a couple years since working there). The whey is then drained and the cheddaring process begins. The curds knit together and are allowed to drain for another hour and a half with being flipped every 15 minutes. After the desired pH has been achieved salt is added and the curd blocks are milled into the "curds" you know and eat in the photo. (Only a portion are taken for the fresh curd product, the others are hooped and pressed into flagship).
I don't really know what to say if that's what you want to achieve. I can't imagine how one would accomplish that at home. At Beecher's we had industrial equipment that made quick work and consistent product.
PS. The curds taste 100x better freshly salted and milled than they do from the grocery store :)