Hi all,
Last Sunday I made a Jarlsberg. It has been in the cheese cave for the initial cool phase and will be due to move to the warm phase mid next week. All is going well so far (photos and other details to follow soon) thankfully.
At the moment it is quite hot down south, so I have concerns for trying to maintain the correct conditions for the 4 to 5 weeks of ripening in this phase. Our inside temperature would get up to 26°C (79°F) during the day on a hot day. That is too warm from reading.
What would be the best thing to do in my situation? I was thinking of putting a cold our frozen bottle of water in the ripening container with the cheese and exchanging it daily. I also thought about putting the ripening container in a foam box. Do you think this is sufficient or is there a better way to approach it?
Thanks all for your help.
Shane
Here are some promised photos and info. The recipe I followed came from here.
http://www.cheesemaking.com/learn/recipes/norwegian-style-cheese.html (http://www.cheesemaking.com/learn/recipes/norwegian-style-cheese.html)
It was my largest make at 16L.
The photos are unfortunately not in the right order. I suspect they will be in inverted order. :-)
Shane
Really really nice! :-)
I think that it's a good idea with the foam-box, but I have no experience myself...
Did you think that it was hard to do a make that size? Each time I have upscaled, I have been surprised how much it affects the process - everything has to be larger...
I haven't made cheese with larger holes yet - but I just received some propionic bacteria... Today will be the day... :-)
:-) Danbo
Thanks Danbo. Actually scaling up wasn't too bad. Probably a bit more stressful from the point of view of it's a lot of milk to waste if it goes wrong. At the end of the day the cleanup is the same whether it's a big batch or a small batch. :-) The cheese does feel a lot more substantial when flipping it. I did use my prototype stirrer for stirring the curds while cooking them. It's not at a stage where I'm happy with it yet though. Still it saved my hand though.
One thing I didn't point out is that I didn't actually have a decent mould for this amount of curds. I actually used two brie moulds. I pre pressed the curds in two moulds and then combined the contents for the heavier presses. I'm not convinced I pressed heavy enough though, so I guess I will find out in time.
I forgot to add that I also made whey ricotta after the cheese and that ricotta went on to become a plum and ricotta cake and a beef lasagne. Both were yum. :-)
I'm now considering my next make. I think the next make will be a bit smaller.
Shane
You deserve a big cheese! :-)
Eighty degrees should be absolutely, fine, given it doesn't stay there all the time. Actually, I think 70-75 is ideal... someone here was saying that. ???
I made a Jarlsberg a few months ago and had a hard time maintaining proper temp during the warm phase. It averaged between 18-19 and sometimes 20C. I opened it at 3.5 months and the was a bit of eye formation, but the flavour just wasn't as good as my previous makes where the warm phase averaged 22C.
From experience, I'd say 22-24C is optimal. Anything above that will probably accelerate mould growth and maybe too much propionic activity, but I'm not sure about that.
That's one beautiful cheese you've made. I always get a kick out of reading the recipes in these books that are specific down to a tenth on PH and such and then say "set out at room temperature". "Room temperature" has a very wide range. Which room? Which country? Which season? With that said I would think that 80° would be acceptable but you may want to cut back on the time at that temperature a bit.
What Al said. :)
If you want to use an ice chest (foam box) read some of H-K-J's posts. He has made a lot of cheese using only that method.
Larry
Quote from: Stinky on February 21, 2015, 04:40:45 PM
Eighty degrees should be absolutely, fine, given it doesn't stay there all the time. Actually, I think 70-75 is ideal... someone here was saying that. ???
Maybe it was Sailor. :)
QuoteRe: Emmentaler Rezept, auf Wunsch!
« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2013, 02:06:12 PM »
Quote
In the production of Swiss-type cheese two successive fermentations occur. First, lactic acid bacteria (LAB), particularly convert lactose to lactate. Then, during ripening, propionic acid bacteria (PAB) convert lactate to propionic acid, acetic acid and carbon dioxide. CO2 is responsible for eye formation and propionic acid produces the typical nutty/sweet flavor of Swiss-type cheese.
There are different subspecies of Propionic available that have different temperature and environmental requirements. Typically though Propionic needs at least 62F to do its thing. The sweet spot for optimal growth is usually between 77F and 95F. Homemade Swiss can easily fail to produce eyes or much propionic flavor because of a warm room ripening that is too cool.
And
QuoteRe: Emmentaler Rezept, auf Wunsch!
« Reply #7 on: March 05, 2013, 08:00:34 AM »
Quote
Alp - In a laboratory environment, the optimal temperature for Propionic is 77-95F. However, I did not mean to suggest that is the temperature you should use for the warm room/eye formation phase. IMHO it should be 70-72F or "normal" room temperature (about what you suggested). The low 60s can be really problematic and may not produce good results. At the lower temperatures the CO2 production is much slower and will tend to produce smaller and fewer eyes.
From https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,11069.0.html (https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,11069.0.html)
Larry
Thanks very much all. That is good to hear about the elevated temperature. Yesterday we had a day of 38°C (100°F) and our house didn't get below 25°C (77°F) all night. It is going to be just as warm today.
With that in mind I think some cooling is required. I remembered last night that I have a 3 way (12V/240V/LPG) camping fridge that isn't in use at the moment (nor will be any time soon). I also had a spare temperature controller and RTD. I have reassembled my prototype temperature controller and will give that a go. It is the perfect size for this job and I'm guessing there won't need to be much cooling.
So what target will I aim for? 23°C seems to be about middle of what has been suggested.
I'll post photos later of the porta cave if I get it working.
Thanks again.
Shane
It's always nice to have extra "stuff" around. :)
23°C 73°F sounds good to me.
Larry
Yeah, it is always handy. :-) I'm running out of "stuff" though now.....
Shane
Port-a-cave. Seems to control alright. :-)
Shane
Perfect! That should work well.
Larry
Shane: Nice solution. :-)
Thanks. Well today I came home to a mouldy mess in day 2 of the warm phase. This photo is before cleaning with a 3% brine solution. I haven't rubbed it aggressively. Should I do anything different? I had already rubbed it with olive oil, but this has been washed off with the brine.
Thanks.
Shane
I think Al does a 3% brine with 1/3 dry white wine and 2/3 water. Hopefully he'll be along soon to confirm or deny. :)
What is your humidity running?
Larry
You can wash it off with straight white wine and then go to the wash Larry described.
Thanks Guys. I'll do that this morning. I'm not an alcohol drinker but do have an old bottle of white wine that has been sitting around for years. I hope it's still okay. I'm not 100% clear on the daily wash. Is it 1/3 wine and 2/3 3% brine or just water and a separate brine wash?
Thanks.
Shane
I forgot to answer the humidity question. My sensor was maxing out at 99% this morning when I got up. I've cracked open the container and it is now 85%. Is that too low? The recipe calls for 92-95%.
Shane
It should be fine anywhere above 80 and below 95, I think. The 99 is probably why you have blue mold.
Thanks for that. I just went and bought a bottle of dry white wine and have done a wash. I'm assuming that I'm just wetting the mould to kill it, not get rid of the visual sign of mould? I'll keep a close eye on the humidity.
Shane
I'd suggest brushing the mold off lightly, and get as much off as comes easily... it's not like the stuff benefits your cheese any.
Okay. Yep agreed it is certainly not what I want taste wise. I just wasn't sure whether the alcohol in contact with the mould would just make it visually disappear over time. I've scrubbed the top as aggressively as I can with the pathetic brush that I have right now. I'll have to get something with stiffer bristles. I'll tackle the underside tomorrow morning.
Thanks for your help.
Shane
I doubt the blue'd disappear. Most likely the alcohol kills it, and it might go away with washing, but it doesn't disintegrate the moment it dies.
Thanks for the help. The wine is working nicely. I did a 100% wine wash on both sides yesterday. Today I washed with 1/3rd wine + 2/3rd 3% brine. I've uploaded a couple of photos from today. Ignore the stray bristles. I'll try and get them off when it dries a bit more.
Shane
Salt should be 3% by weight of the total weight of wine and water. For example 165 G wine, 335 G water, 15G salt all mixed together. You could probably go to 5% salt if you wanted to.
Larry
Thanks Larry. I'll add another 3.4g of salt to my wash bottle to get it to 3%. If I have problems with that I'll go to 5%.
Shane
I've woken this morning to my Jarlsberg having a bump on its head and stretch marks on its behind. I take it the propionic bacteria is having fun now. I've included a couple of photos of the stretch marks (I stupidly turned it over before taking a photo of the bump). I take it humidity is too low now? Unfortunately my hydrometer is rubbish. It doesn't seem to read above 80% well. It just saturated at 99%. So how do I handle humidity without knowing what it is? Should I just bag the cheese now and forget about the natural rind?
Thanks for your help.
Shane
It would seem that conditions for your cheese to do what you want it to do are right regardless of gauges. Just keep on with your original plan. It's working!! ;)
Just watch for light condensation on the container walls. I would definitely not bag a holey cheese at this early stage.. If you pull a vacuum on it you stand a good chance of having a blowout.
Larry
Thanks Guys. I might add a little water then as there was no condensation this morning. It is good to hear that it is working. I had a 3 month old colby come out of the cave yesterday that I expected to be good and it was a dud. Dry, crumbly and the taste wasn't right.
Shane
Colby was one of the first cheeses I did. Didn't get crumbly but I never had an urge to do another. Taste just wasn't that great to make it worth the trouble.
That's interesting to know. Not sure whether I'd try it again or not.
Shane
I found way too many other interesting and delicious cheeses I wanted to try and as my time for cheese making is not as long as I would like it to be I rationed it out to those cheeses. I can buy colby at the store dirt cheap but Stilton or Triple Cream Brie, or Vacherin Mont D'Or? Well they aren't cheap or easy to find. Many other artisan cheeses just aren't even available on the market so if you want to enjoy them you will have to make them. Besides that I seem to have a standing order for my triple cream brie from every friend I have. LOL
Yeah that's fair. I'm trying to cater for youngsters as well, hence a more mild cheese. Since I flipped this morning another lump has appeared on the top side. I've got photos this time. It's almost rising as quickly as the pizza base dough I made today. :-)
Oo, exciting!
Hmmm...
Al-----You make a very valid point----I have had the failures with Colby and Jarlsberg--- when I can buy them at Sam's Club for $4.50 a lb. and I can't improve them----and it costs more then that to make them-----I would rather put the effort into less available or affordable cheese-----but the failures did really help my learning experiences.
Qdog
Is the cheese supposed to smell quite bad at this stage? Not sure whether it is the white wine or the cheese. It has been bulging quite a bit, but I think there was a tiny ooze from one of the bulges also. I'll try and upload photos shortly.
Thanks.
Shane
What do you mean by bad? A socky smell? A moldy smell?
It is looking a little orange. Does it smell like Stinky's boots, or maybe rotten crab? :) First guess is B. linens. The wine/brine wash does encourage that. It's helpful for good rind formation, but if you can't stand it at this point maybe shift to a straight wine wash.
There are several threads here on rind formation and washing. Try to find a path that suits your needs.
Larry
Thanks Guys. It is hard to describe the smell. It is certainly not stinky socks. Probably closer to rotten crab if I could imagine that smell. :o I have just given it a wash with straight wine. I think the orange colour may have been a lighting effect. When I look at the rind there is no obvious orange.
I will take a look at the rind formation and washing threads.
Thanks again.
Shane
That thread on washing and rind formation was brilliant. Here is an updated photo with a lump looking like a volcano ready to erupt.
Shane
Here's an updated photo. Nearly passed out from the odour while taking to photo. :o I'm washing daily in straight white wine for the moment.
Shane
I'm beginning to fear you are experiencing late blowing. I've never had the problem myself so someone else may want to chime in here but it sure looks like it could be.
Thanks. It would certainly be in keeping with my last couple of weeks. This morning I've just washed the cheese in straight wine, however it appears to have slumped. A blow-out?? Do I just bin it now?
Shane
RIP Jarlsberg #1. The slump continued and there seemed to be a large population of gnats/tiny flies attacking it. I've taken some photos to help for learning before I try again. If I do it again I'll try changing the height/width so that I can get it into my portable fridge. I suspect the high ambient conditions probably didn't help. Any thoughts?
Thanks.
Shane
I'm sorry to read this...
Like Al I suspect late blowing too... Take a look at https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,13810.msg104618.html#msg104618 (https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,13810.msg104618.html#msg104618)
If it's late blowing you are not to blame - it was because of spores in the milk. I'm using something called Lysozyme to prevent this.
Have a cheese for a great effort - the failure was not your fault.
:-) Danbo
Thanks Danbo! It's great to see you back. I'll try and see if I can get some Lysozyme. How much do you need? Initial pieces look really expensive in Australia. I've seen prices of $63 for 5g and $230+ for 500g. Those are not from cheesemaking sites. Is it used elsewhere?
Thanks
Shane
I think that it is used for brewing but I'm not sure...
I use up to 1 gram Lysozyme (powder) for 24 liters of milk.
I pay 13 Euro for 100 grams from Germany. If you know someone living in Germany maybe they can mail it to you. The company does not ship to Australia. PM me if you want the contact info.
:-) Danbo
Quote from: Danbo on March 15, 2015, 09:25:45 AM
I think that it is used for brewing but I'm not sure...
I use up to 1 gram Lysozyme (powder) for 24 liters of milk.
I pay 13 Euro (plus VAT) for 100 grams from Germany. If you know someone living in Germany maybe they can mail it to you. The company does not ship to Australia. PM me if you want the contact info.
:-) Danbo
Thanks Danbo. My wife is German, but I'm not sure if her family over there would send it or not (the don't like people posting stuff to them...... go figure). I might check out some local home brew stores here first. The price you paid is very attractive. It might be worth getting some before I try again.
Shane
If you can get milk from cows fed on hay or fresh grass (and not ensilage) the risk of late blowing (clostridium) should be much lower. Here in Denmark most cows are fed ensilage in the winter time. That said, I'm not sure that it was actually late blowing causing your cheese to fail - just an educated guess...
If it gas from the swelling smelled like vommit then I would be even more sure that it was late blowing (mine did).
:-) Danbo
Thanks Danbo. It was summer over here, so I doubt the cows would have been fed silage. The smell was terrible, but I'm not sure how much of that odour was attributed to the rind. It didn't smell like vomit at all, very hard to describe though.
Does lysozyme need cold storage? Not sure how I'd go bringing it in from overseas if that were the case.
Shane
I store mine at -18 C but as I recall it is not necessary (?). I received it uncooled and I think that it took 3-5 days to get here.
Thanks Danbo. I'll keep it in mind.
Shane
I'm going to make a smaller (8L) Jarlsberg tomorrow and am just going over my make sheet from last time. It seems I used three times too much propionic bacteria. That probably didn't help. I'll correct the amount for this make.
Shane
That could be an issue. :-)