(Sorry if this has been brought-up before; I searched, but if you know of a link please let me know)
I am in the process of doing my first presses of my "Alpine-Style Tomme". I am using a CheesyPress that uses a crank/turn pressure system. Two complete turns equals 10lbs pressure, 4 turns equals 20lbs, etc.
I followed the directions but I couldn't tell when the spring "begins to depress". It's a really thick spring and I'm not feeling an obvious "push" or press. So, I have no idea if I'm pressing too light or too heavy... I don't know if I'm starting to count my cranks (???) :) at the right point.
After a pressing time, when I flip, is there anything I can look for to see if I'm pressing too little or not enough? I did my first 10 minutes at 10lbs. Now I'm doing 15 minutes at 20lbs. Next will be 3 hours at 20lbs, flipping every 30 minutes.
Any advice you have, I would greatly appreciate it.
Thanks
Cindy
Here's what I'd recommend:
Start with just enough weight to get the curds to stay together, for the whole wheel to hold its shape. You'll still notice cracks and holes/pockmarks between curds. (On many cheeses, including alpine, this tends to happen on its own, without any or much external pressure). Say, 15-30 minutes or so. Flip and redress the wheel.
Then up it a bit, until you lose more of indentations, the surface becoming smoother still. Another 15-30 minutes. Flip and redress again
Then at this point you can aim for a smooth surface, from higher pressure.
If, say, you wound up with a completely smooth wheel after just a short time during the first pressing, you probably pressed too hard and fast - this could trap whey in the cheese wheel, which down the road will ferment and make the cheese sour and weepy.
If you want mechanical openings in you cheese (irregularly shaped holes in the past when cut, often seen in Havarti for instance), then you would press just until you get that smooth surface, but not much more pressure than that. You would actually be leaving those gaps and spaces between the curd particles, though you wouldn't see any gaps on the outside of the wheel. (You want it smooth outside though, as holes and cracks give a place for mold to grow.)
If you don't want mechanical openings, the you press more, to press out those gaps between curd, making the curd uniformly compressed throughout the wheel. If you're aiming for a smooth paste of the cheese, OR aiming for round wholes from gas production (such as large eyes from proprionic bacteria in Emmental, or small eyes from diacetyl bacteria), you want those mechanical openings pressed out.
I find most cheese doesn't need a whole lot of pressure, not much more than 2x the weight of the cheese. It's the cheddar-types that need a helleva lot of pressure. So, if you have, say, a 4 pound alpine, you may not need more than 8 pounds of pressure/weight at the end of things. (So maybe step it up from start to finish from 2lbs to 4lbs to 8lbs for instance.)
A note about your spring-style press, though - since the cheese is pressed by the spring pushing against the top of the mold, as the cheese compresses (e.g. whey is pushed out; gaps are closed) and the the cheese shrinks in volume, the pressure actually lessens. So over time with the spring type press, LESS weight is applied to the cheese. So may have to be continually tweaking the screw for the first couple hours. Dead-weights, lever arms, and pneumatic presses by contrast apply a constant pressure over time.
Woven Meadows,
Awesome! Thank you so much for the post! Well, I think I may have a cheese that's pretty compressed. Oops. Learn, learn, learn... right? :/
If it's not to late, I'll try to ease up on the pressure a little and see what happens. I will be putting the information you gave me in my notebook.
Thanks!
The approach I use is to add just enough weight to keep a light drip/trickle of whey. IOW, as you add pressure, as soon as you see the whey starting to well out, stop and wait a while.
Oh my god... my poor cheese! It's going to be dysfunctional and need therapy!
I have *no* idea how I've done at pressing this... all I've really gotten is a slow to very slow drip.
Also, I am so happy I saw this... during a redress and flip, I noticed a few dark fibers! It must have been the butter muslin -- which was clean. I keep all the pets out of my room and I'm a freak with cleanliness in the room (no where else :) ). All I can think it was in the butter muslin. So, I had to pick the pieces out... I have about 10 little "pock marks" around my wheel. They are tiny.
Will this mess up my rind? Will I have a problem with contamination? My cheese still has an hour and half of pressing and flipping. Speaking of which, my timer just went off! Time to redress and flip!
Don't worry.
Also just make sure no cheese is going through the cheesecloth.
Well, my cheese is air-drying (on a mat on a rack). It looks great but as it sat, the bottom became slightly bigger than the top (settling). So, I gently flipped it over and one hour 45 minutes later, it had "settled" again.
It's not huge. It's noticeable but it's not NOTICEABLE, if that makes sense?
I think that "slow to very slow" drip of whey, though, is better than too fast of a stream - signals a gentle and steady pressure, rather than a quick and heavy pressing
Well, something is wrong. After following directions, I finished pressing and left the wheel to air dry overnight. Excitedly ran to the "cheese room" like a kid on Christmas morning... No cracks, no greasy/oily stuff... however, just a little clear moisture on the bottom and the wheel "settled" so the bottom is noticeably larger than the top.
I've searched my books, searched here and Googled "pressing troubleshooting cheese making problems shape" and every variation of that and I couldn't find anything addressing my problem.
What does this mean? Obviously, I didn't apply enough pressure? Is the cheese ruined?
I am so pissed (sorry) about the damn (sorry) press! The press was highly recommended by Ms. Karlin in her book; but I think the press is ridiculous for a beginner. There is too much left to chance and I need something more exact. So, last night while waiting 30 minutes to redress and flip, I ordered a new cheese press! Got the one from NE Cheese Making. So there.
I don't think this is abnormal for a softer bodied cheese (if that's what you were going for). From your description you took it out of the mold and let it air dry overnight - without brining? Or were the curds salted before being pressed (like a cheddar) so not being brined? Generally you want to go straight from mold to brine, or the cheese is going to "smoosh" just as you described.
If this is something that happened AFTER the wheel was brined, then there was probably too much moisture left in the cheese to begin with. Or it was way to warm and softened.
Woven... I pressed and then air dried overnight. Now I am supposed to rub salt on the rind, cover with a damp towel and start aging. So, the cheese may not be bad?
Here's my suggestion, contact Smolt1 and buy a Sturdypress. That way you won't have to babysit your cheeses every time you press, especially overnight.
Thanks Al! I actually already ordered a new press from NE CheeseMaking; but thank you kindly.
I'm just trying to understand what is happening. Is there liquid causing the "spread"? Does it look like a blob because the curds didn't knit together? Is it gas? Is my cheese trying to fart? :) Yes, I have the humor of a 13-year-old.
It's often referred to as elephant foot----when the bottom slumps out like that and resembles an elephant foot------in my limited experience, the curds have retained to much whey-----check the texture of your curds before you drain ----most of the books and NE cheese recipes tell you how to do this----I could be wrong, but I don't think you can press that type of whey retention out.
Qdog
If the cheese has a lot of whey in it when drying you have to flip it often so the whey basically stays in the middle. If it sits too long on one side it will get "elephants foot" as the whey all goes to the bottom and causess it to swell. Typically, if you flip it enough the whey will settle in the middle and cause a bulge like you would see on a Regiano Parmesan.
The tendency to slump, "elephants foot", etc, isn't necessarily because of a defect, it can just be a soft pasted cheese. Gianclis Caldwell notes, for instance, in one of her cheeses made on farm, they'll intentionally take it out of the mold, let it set for a bit with a board on top, flipping if needed, to get curved/rounded edges on the wheel. But then it goes into the brine, where because it's floating in liquid retains its shape. By the time it has brined, the outer surface has hardened and dried some, so it will now maintain its shape.
I think it helps a little to understand rheology (the science of the flow of liquids) when looking at cheeses. A cheese coming out of the press behaves like a liquid - just a very high viscosity liquid. At this point you could put it in a sealed high pressure press with a small orifice and extrude it out in a stream. This is liquid behavior - not the behavior of a solid. We don't see the shape change when it floats in a brine because the brine largely supports it equally on all sides. When you put on the aging shelf the weight of the cheese causes the slumping that we call elephant's foot. While we may not like it, we should expect it as a normal thing and turn the cheese as much as required to even out this slumping. As Al points out it is more attractive to have the slump in the middle. You can turn the cheese as often as you like consistent with maintaining the aging cave at the correct temperature and humidity. Theoretically, you could avoid the problem altogether by mounting the cheese on a spit and constantly rotating until it firms up.
Note that I did not mention anything about whey settling or moving because very little is left at this point. If one sliced through a cheese with elephant foot and took samples from the "head" and the foot you'd find very little difference in moisture content. So, the solution to your problem is to flip early and often regardless of what the recipe in the book says. Eventually, the curd will consolidate to the point where the cheese weight is insufficient to cause further flowing and turning only becomes necessary for equal exposure to the cave air. A)
To EVERYONE who has replied... thank you (truly).
I'm off to flip. We'll see as I was afraid to flip so my little elephant foot's cheese hasn't been flipped in 20 hours.
I'm not totally pissed this happened because I *am* learning something, right?? :) I'm more pissed at the press because it left too much to chance for a beginner. However, I will learn from this. I will learn from this. ...grumble grumble... But seriously, I'll now have some great information for future pressing and cheeses. I keep detailed notes.
My only concern is the trapped whey will make the cheese dangerous to eat, if edible at all. I don't want to send my family to the ER on my second cheese out. :)
All cheese has retained whey. If it didn't it would all be rock hard and impossible to eat.
Yep, don't worry your face off. It should be absolutely fine.
Now, if it smells like a camel's vomit, you may have a problem.
Al, cool. I guess I'm thinking if I were to cut the cheese open today, like a cup of whey would come gushing out! I'm guessing that's not so... :)
Stinky, I worry. It's what I do. :) Camel vomit. Trying to find something clever and quippy to write, but I got nothin'. :)
Quote from: cindybman on March 11, 2015, 02:06:50 AM
My only concern is the trapped whey will make the cheese dangerous to eat, if edible at all. I don't want to send my family to the ER on my second cheese out. :)
Any remaining whey (1-3%) is most likely evenly dispersed throughout the cheese. It would only be "trapped" if it occupied an interstitial space of any consequence within the wheel. If such a space exists it might collect some of the remaining whey. Such cheeses often weep whey upon storage but this is obvious. The nose is a great detector of spoiled food. Listen to it! :o
I doubt that your cheese will be dangerous and will probably be quite good. Since you don't want to send your family to the ER then you should eat a piece of your cheese about 24 hours before offering it to anyone else. ;)
Kern, your 24-hour-in-advance suggestion was awesome and truth! When I was young, we would visit my parents' friend who foraged for wild mushrooms. Whenever he would cook-up his fungus find - I kid you not - everyone would make him eat first and wait 15 minutes! Thankfully, Richard (and all his friends) is still alive! :)
Fair enough. I got sick once by trusting my brother on wild mushrooms we'd collected.
Cindy,
I think the first thing is - Take a breath - its all still cheese, yours is a little 'Flowy' that's all. I'm going to work backwards - If you cook food for your family then the 'Trip to ER' is probably not going to happen. "Cleanliness is next to Cheesiness" - Oh I like that:) But the trapped whey - if there is any - will ferment and the sour taste with be lactic acid and other bits. Your nose will know whether you want to eat it or not. The other bugs, if they exist, are odourless and tasteless anyway and if you are as fastidious as the rest of us there is more chance encountering these bugs eating out than in your Kitchen.
Rheology is a fascinating topic - and yes of specific interest to us - movement of liquid whey through a semi- permiable membrane - the curds. The trick here is then to be able to determine the outcome you are after for your cheese. The other thing to keep in mind is that as you remove whey, you are also removing the Lactic acid creation potential for the cultures. Most of the semi-hard cheeses require some cooking and stirring and it's here that the overall moisture content is determined and the pressing is final stage of whey removal. G.C in here book uses a term called Pitching - something new for me as well - but it is essentially the gathering up the curds while still in the warm whey and increasing the process. I used it making a St Paulin cheese which didn't have a lot of pressing - now that said I didn't like the cheese because it was too sour and the reason was that the curds were still too moist and it didn't taste nice. Chalk that one up to experience - there actually was acouple of things wrong with the recipe provided. But, thats another topic.
One thing that will help us all would be the notes on the recipe you were using and what you did - cause they may be different - and photos would be great. There's no wrong answers nor judgements...
as far as presses go - In my humble opinion - the screw and spring presses are not very useful. I don't mean to offend any cheese press manufacturers but they just don't provide the necessary weight for long enough to achieve a nice closed rind and internal paste - especially a nice Cheddar. I do prefer a more agressive pressing routine than most and even my Cearphilly gets about 50Kg overnight. But you need to keep the press weight constant and a screw and spring press doesn't achieve that with constant monitoring - and as you pointed out early in the post it is too subjective, where doe the spring start imparting the necessary force?
Whether you salted the curds or brined is important as internally salted curds need much more pressure to knit than cheeses that are going to be brined. Temperature of the curds at pressing is also a factor to consider in that warmer curds expell whey easier than cold ones.
Sorry I'll stop now..
-- Mal
Quote from: cindybman on March 11, 2015, 03:19:06 AM
Kern, your 24-hour-in-advance suggestion was awesome and truth! When I was young, we would visit my parents' friend who foraged for wild mushrooms. Whenever he would cook-up his fungus find - I kid you not - everyone would make him eat first and wait 15 minutes! Thankfully, Richard (and all his friends) is still alive! :)
Quote from: Stinky on March 11, 2015, 03:23:51 AM
Fair enough. I got sick once by trusting my brother on wild mushrooms we'd collected.
I have collected wild mushrooms for years. Morels and Ceps in the spring and then Chanterelles, Ceps and Matsutaki in the fall. I have tons of dried Ceps (boletus edulus) and their smell is out of this world good. I plan to use some of them to make a cheese. ;D
How about horns of plenty?
Mal... please don't apologize for your long post... I loved it! I love learning and information, so, bring it on. :) I do keep a very clean area and use -- is it Star?-- some type of food-grade santizer on all equipment and surfaces; before and during all processes. I keep a spray bottle on hand, too. I had taken pictures and notes... perhaps I'll start a post of my cheese making for that recipe. But talk about being bored... I would only read it if you are in need of a good nap! :)
Kern... here's my address. Send me mushrooms. (j/k)
Stinky... just saw your signature ("It's probably a pathogen") and thought it was awesome.
I think I'd like to sit around and have a beer with all of you!
BTW... I flipped my elephant's foot last night. Now, it had been in one position for 20 hours. So, needless to say, after flipping and 12 hours later I still have an inverted elephant's foot. No cares, for realz. I think if my cheese turns out tasty, I will start a new fad in cheeses... elephant foots. And yes, it would be "foots" and not feet. :)
The signature is new. :D
But I do have a brew-curds cheddar aging right now... ;)
Cindy, here's my advice with regard to the elephant's foot ...
... wait for it ...
... wait for it ...
... wait for it ...
... just go with the flow.
;D
Awake... it took me several minutes and several re-reads, and then, like a really lethargic sedated bolt of lightening, I got it! And then I groaned. :) And, are you a PhD or a pHD? Amazing what capitalizing the wrong letter can do... throws all those years of schooling and internships and school loans right in the bin. Yes, I'm a doctor of alkaline and buffering.
Hah! I hadn't thought about the possibilities in "capitalizing" on pH-D!
In truth, I am a university professor, so yes to the PhD -- but I really wasn't trying to advertise that with my username. The first forum I ever joined, I used "awake" as the username, because that combines my first initial and the first part of my last name, and thus is easy for an absent-minded person like myself to remember. :) I tried to use it again when I joined other forums, but kept finding it already taken, so finally resorted to "awakephd" -- which, so far, has never been taken on any forum I've joined. :)
I think being a university professor is awesome! If I could start my education all over again, I would have loved to be a math professor. I think teaching kids at college level allows you more freedom to be creative with what you teach. Congrats on getting you PhD... I know that was a lot of hard work.
Quote from: awakephd on March 12, 2015, 12:17:25 AM
In truth, I am a university professor, so yes to the PhD --
Looks like your cover is blown Andy. At least your PhD and not CIA 8) 8).
No problem, I'll just put on a disguise ... 8)