Hi all,
Yesterday took another attempt at a Cambozola based on the wiki recipe. It was an 8L batch using unhomogenised milk that was fairly close to use by date. It was very cheap, so I looked at it more of a practice exercise. If it doesn't turn out too bad.
Anyway, the make went very well. I used two of these moulds.
http://www.anelliluigi.it/prodotti/scheda_prodotto.php?id=63 (http://www.anelliluigi.it/prodotti/scheda_prodotto.php?id=63)
Does anyone have experience with using these? One mould I filled to the top, and the second one the balance. It was probably 3/4 full. I have some questions though.
The flipping times in the recipes are presumably for a camembert sized mould. I found that I had to wait several hours before I was at a drain level where I was comfortable enough to attempt a flip (cheese remained in mould, board underneath to catch). This morning I continued flipping and the sides were nice and straight, but when I eventually removed the moulds to continue the drain it was obvious that I hadn't drained enough. See photos below. So, my question is, how long do you typically drain a brie of this size? Do you fill the moulds to the top? Judging by my make you'd need 10L of milk to fill two of these moulds.
Thanks for your wise advise.
Shane
I will watch your progress with interest. This is on my to do list.
My first one didn't develop any blue inside. I know I was a bit lite on the PR back then. I put loads in this time. I also put large widely spaced holes in it last time. This time I'll put lots more smaller holes.
Shane
I use open end molds for these as they are basically a brie with blue inside. Makes it easier to flip them.
Looks good, I think! :-)
Al - I had planned on buying open ended moulds when I bought these, but they didn't have what I was after and suggested I simply didn't drain them long enough. As for flipping, I don't think this was really an issue as I flipped them the same as I would have with an open ended mould. How long do you drain for before removing your mould?
Thanks Danbo. :)
Shane
I flip and drain mine until they hold their shape. Then I remove the mold and salt them. Typically they will have straight sides.
Thanks. What diameter are those? Mine are 19cm (7.5"). I drained for around 18hrs and they didn't hold their shape.
Shane
These are Baby Bries and are 5.1". I like doing these as I can readily buy cheese boxes and wrapping paper for this size.
Okay, Thanks. I'm happy with the diameter and size as they fit perfectly in my ripening boxes and the wrap that I have. I guess I just need to experiment on the draining time. Maybe I should go a full 24hrs. I have another ripening box, so maybe I'll do a 5L batch and see how I go. I'll make a brie instead this time.
Shane
Shane
Shane,
You deserve a cheese just for getting those babies flipped in 1 piece! :)
Larry
Thanks Larry. :)
No signs of white fuzz yet. Hopefully soon.
Shane
White fuzz has started appearing. Still to light to see in a photo though.
Shane
Today there is a nice dusting on white on both cheeses.
Shane
Quote from: Shane on April 13, 2015, 10:42:40 PM
I guess I just need to experiment on the draining time. Maybe I should go a full 24hrs. I have another ripening box, so maybe I'll do a 5L batch and see how I go. I'll make a brie instead this time.
Shane
Shane
Shane, I'm not so sure this is a draining time issue. How long did you cook/stir your curds before putting them in the molds? Did you get a pH reading?
Larry
Hi Larry,
I used the wiki recipe for cambozola (https://cheeseforum.org/articles/wiki-cambozola-cheese-making-recipe/ (https://cheeseforum.org/articles/wiki-cambozola-cheese-making-recipe/)). I stirred for the two minutes it called for. Do you suggest cooking the curds longer?
It seems I overlooked one important step though. I missed the step of draining the curds through cheesecloth first. Bugger! Oh well, I guess I will remember for next time. :) It was right there in front of me and I still missed it.....
I didn't take pH measurements this time. It was a rushed make. I hadn't planned on making cheese that day, but cheap milk was sitting there and I decided to bite.
Shane
Quote from: Shane on April 18, 2015, 03:58:37 AM
Hi Larry,
I used the wiki recipe for cambozola (https://cheeseforum.org/articles/wiki-cambozola-cheese-making-recipe/ (https://cheeseforum.org/articles/wiki-cambozola-cheese-making-recipe/)). I stirred for the two minutes it called for. Do you suggest cooking the curds longer?
It seems I overlooked one important step though. I missed the step of draining the curds through cheesecloth first. Bugger! Oh well, I guess I will remember for next time. :) It was right there in front of me and I still missed it.....
I didn't take pH measurements this time. It was a rushed make. I hadn't planned on making cheese that day, but cheap milk was sitting there and I decided to bite.
Shane
In looking over the wiki recipe, it looks like pretty much a straight-up Camembert make, with an addition of some blue mold internally. There isn't really any provision for trying to get some crevasses internally for blue aeration. It's a relatively low temperature make, with minimal stirring. If you look at some other recipes, I think you'll find that there is more cook time/stirring for Cambozolas than there is for Camemberts. For example, look at the Camblue and Camembert recipes on the New England Cheese site.
Not pre-draining the curds is probably part of the problem also. One other thing that might have added to the runniness is the cheese form factor. If the cheeses were taller, the weight of the curds would help express more water.
With the Cambozolas I have going, I probably erred too much on the side of providing a curd that was dryer to create internal air gaps for blue development. I guess time will tell on that front. :)
Caldwell's bloomy rind recipe calls for cutting the curd, resting 15-30 minutes, gently stirring and resting again for another 15-30 minutes, continuing the rest/stir cycle "until curd texture is even throughout" (whatever that means) and pH is 6.40 to 6.45. For the Camemberts I just made, that was about 4 hours of stirring and resting before ladling curds into the molds. Again, I might well have gone way too long at this step. :)
Anyway, your cheeses are looking great, and I'm sure they'll taste great when they're done.
Lots of ways to get to an end result.
Larry
Yeah! The white mould is looking good! :-)
That PC growth is looking fantastic. I did three of the 5.1" ones last week and they too are growing well. AC4U for your fine looking cambozola! BTW I nearly always allow mine to drain overnight. ;)
Thanks Guys. The PC growth is going really well. I started patting this morning. I'll look at poking holes in it soon.
Larry - Thanks for your extra information. Yes, it is pretty much a camembert make. I was aiming for a blue brie. I didn't realise there was a difference between the makes. I'll check out those recipes. I'll try one of those next time. That's interesting about the stirring time on Caldwell's recipe. Is this continuous stirring or do you wander in and out stirring over that time?
Al - Glad to hear yours are going well also. What approximate spacing are your holes? How long do you leave yours in the cave after adding the holes? The wiki recipe calls for it to go into the fridge straight afterwards.
Thanks Danbo :)
Shane
I pierced mine today. I stick a thermometer into the sides at the bottom and angled up about every 2 inches around the circumference. I then flip the cheese over and do the same between the existing holes. I only pierce to just shy of the center. Once my PC has developed, after 4-5 days, I wrap mine in cheese paper and leave them in the cave to ripen for a further 3-4 weeks. Once they soften I place them in cheese boxes.
Thanks Al. Looking great! I'm not sure my cheeses are tall enough to work through the sides. Is going through the top/bottom okay? Should a hole be closed ended?
Shane
If I spoke through the top I just press it down. No biggie.
Quote from: Shane on April 18, 2015, 10:13:07 PM
That's interesting about the stirring time on Caldwell's recipe. Is this continuous stirring or do you wander in and out stirring over that time?
Shane
Shane, The stirring was 1 minute on, 15 to 30 minutes off. Just enough to keep the curds from clumping. Pretty laid back cheese tending.
Regarding piercing, I went top to bottom on mine, and didn't worry about going all the way through. I'll attach a pic. It's about a 5 or 5.5 inch mold. I actually pierced mine before I even sprayed P.c. on the exteriors to give the blue a little head start. As you can see from the photo, the blue that grew on the exterior probably won't be overtaken by the white. Oh well, live and learn. :) I wanted to give blue every chance possible to grow with this make. I'll make adjustments next time.
Regarding cave vs. refrigeration, after mine were pretty solid white and they had their second piercing, I took the temperature down to 46°F (8°C). The only reason for that temperature is that's as low as the "cave" they're in goes. As soon as I detect any softening, they'll get wrapped and put in the regular refrigerator at about 38°F (3°C).
Read through Mal's Malembert make. He really lays out the logic behind aging white fuzzies.
Larry
They look brilliant Larry. The stirring doesn't sound too bad then. I was worried you were going to say you stood there stirring for four hours. :)
I can understand the logic with your later introduction of PC. I have seen photos of them with blue rinds as well. With the piercing, would it be worth dipping the spike in a little PR to ensure where spiked is in contact with it?
Thanks on the detail of the cave details. My cave is set at 11°C (51°F) right now. I could take it lower, but that means taking everything lower. Our normal fridge is at 3°C (37°C), but I'm concerned where the PR will continue to do it's thing. Do you think it will be okay?
I do refer to Mal's make. It is excellent. I have followed them in the past for maturing. I'm just a little unsure of the blue aspect.
Shane
These Cambozolas weren't Caldwell's recipe. For these, I sort of followed the Camblu recipe on NEC. I just did a white bloomey from Caldwell, and I'll post that maybe tomorrow. As I mentioned, it's very possible I went too long with the cook/stir on the whites, but wanted to start out at least hitting the pH targets.
Also, on the Cambozolas, I skewed everything in the recipe toward getting good blue development. We'll see how that plays out.
I guess it wouldn't hurt to dip your poker in some P.r., but if you have a layer in the middle of your cheeses, I don't think it'll help much. I believe the lack of blue development is usually a lack of oxygen, not a lack of spores.
You can probably wait a little before going to a colder temperature, but you run the risk of slipskin and a liquid layer toward the outside, with a more solid center. It's kind of a balancing act from here. It just depends on what your priorities are.
It'll be good, no matter what. ;)
Larry
Thanks for that. Yeah, I had a double cream brie that ammoniated by leaving in the cave for too long. I don't wish to do that again.
Shane
Here are some more progress photos. I had a little accident with the larger of the two cheeses. It stuck to the mat a little and broke off a section. If squashed it back on to hopefully grow back together. In the past I had one brie snap in half. I wrapped it and when it came time for eating you'd never have known it broke.
Today I also did the first piercing.
Shane
Looking good! :-)
Thanks Danbo. This morning I decided it was time to move the cheeses to a cooler fridge. I have punctured the other side and have now wrapped them. They weighed 800g and 650g. Below are some photos from before wrapping. I will keep my fingers crossed that the PR works its magic now.
Shane
I forgot to add that the only reason I've wrapped the cheeses is that I wanted to stack them on each other in a container in my normal fridge.
Shane
The smaller of my two cheeses has ripened and ready to eat. I had forgotten that I never put PR in this cheese though as I wasn't exactly sure where the mid line was going to be (this was the leftovers). I wish I had remembered this earlier as I wouldn't have bothered poking holes in it.
Below is a photo. The bigger cheese still has a little while to go.
Shane
Looks great! How's it taste?
AC4U!
Thanks. It tastes good to me. Creamy with a faint hint of mushroom. I'm not the connoisseur of camembert/brie that my wife is though. She'll taste test tomorrow to give her tick of approval.
Shane
I have to confess that I've only ever had a tiny taste or two of cam/brie/etc., so I don't know if my recent effort tastes like it "should" -- but I don't really care, since I love it! :)
When I was younger the only cheese I knew was made by Kraft and was wrapped in foil on the non refrigerated shelves at the supermarket. It's amazing how things have changed since then. I'll keep on trying new cheeses to what I really like. My problem is that I'm lactose intolerant. :( That makes this hobby of cheesemaking a tad frustrating. I do still eat cheese and absolutely love it, but I need to take it easy.
Shane
Shane, that is one nice, nice looking cheese. AC4U.
Thanks Jim. It has received the tick of approval from my wife. The only problem is the quantity. There's just too much for us to get through. I'll have to look into recipes where we can include it. I saw one for mashed potatoes with camembert. Any other suggestions? There are millions of baked camembert recipes, but I'm not sure they would work with wedges of a large brie sized cheese.
Shane
Very nice Shane even without the blue!
-- A cheese for ya !
Mal
Thanks Mal. I have a feeling I'm not going to see any blue in the other one either. That is despite putting a truckload of PR in the middle and poking holes from both sides. I cut a wedge out of the bigger cheese and didn't see any blue. It still has a while to go on the ripening, but not a good sign.
Shane
Here, I think, is the problem: The Wiki recipe calls for adding the P. candidum to the milk. Thus, it is contact with the P. roqueforti when it is sprinkled on the draining curd. Not good. :P
Caldwell in Mastering Artisan Cheesemaking states on page 226 regarding a Cambozola recipe (Ann Hansen's Blue-Brie Cheese) that the blue can be hindered by the white when present in the milk. Hansen's recipe calls for NO P. candidum in the milk. Rather it is sprayed on the cheese AFTER the wheel has been pierced and the blue has had time to develop. This keeps the two molds separate, which is a good thing. :D
Thanks Kern. That makes perfect sense. How do we have this wiki recipe modified to prevent anyone else wasting PR. I won't say it is a waste of milk as it's still an edible camembert at the end of the day.
Shane