I have a friend who wants me to make several pounds of chevre for him by Thursday. I have 11 days worth of our own goat's (Lamancha) raw milk sitting in our milk fridge. Right after milking and straining, we put the milk in the freezer for 2 hours to quickly bring down the temp. Then we transfer to a dedicated fridge that stays at 36 degrees to keep it cooler than our regular food fridge.
I am wondering...how far back can I use the milk for successful chevre?
3 days is the oldest as per the PMO.
What is the PMO?
Also, you should make yourself aware of the legalities of fresh cheeses made from raw milk that are beyond your own consumption. Technically, making fresh raw milk cheese for someone else is not legal and you need to be very careful. I use raw milk for fresh cheeses and those aged less than 60 days for myself, but don't give to anyone else.
Susan
It's legal in our state to sell raw dairy for pet consumption.
Could I mix 1/2 milk from yesterday with 1/2 gallon milk from the 5th? Would it make alright?
What is the science behind the milk needing to be fresh?
The main problem will be Bactria and pathogens of some sort or another , the milk will also be getting more acidic as it sits so it will form a curd quicker.
New studies show that milk is safer when left at room temps than when cooled , the cooling seems to favor the pathogens as apossed to the good Bactria , I seem to recall listeria is one of those that gets a foot hold when milk is cooled .
I think it is quite legal to give away raw milk and raw milk products , the law says you can not sell them.
It might be hard to sell the story of chèvre cheese for animal use. ;D
I have made great cheese from week old milk. I don't use any fancy meters or starter cultures just kefir, if you are worried just pasturize your milk first.
PMO is the pasteurized milk ordinance, i.e. the government regulations on how milk should be handled. This is a good place to start, unless you feel like running tests on every batch of cheese you make. If you stick with the PMO, you are less likely to make anyone sick, or litigious, or both.
Also, mixing newer milk with older milk would inoculate the new milk with any pathogens from the older milk. Not a good idea.
Quote from: Gregore on November 11, 2015, 05:59:17 AM
The main problem will be Bactria and pathogens of some sort or another , the milk will also be getting more acidic as it sits so it will form a curd quicker.
New studies show that milk is safer when left at room temps than when cooled , the cooling seems to favor the pathogens as apossed to the good Bactria , I seem to recall listeria is one of those that gets a foot hold when milk is cooled .
I think it is quite legal to give away raw milk and raw milk products , the law says you can not sell them.
It might be hard to sell the story of chèvre cheese for animal use. ;D
Wow! I have only read that one needs to get milk cooled as quickly as possible!! We have drunk milk that is 2 weeks old in the fridge and still been fine. We take every precaution to make sure that the milk is clean. We sanitize the teats with chlorhexidine and strip 3 squirts from each teat and machine milk in a closed system. Then we strain and put in glas 1/2 gallon containers with canning lids and put in freezer for 2-3 hours.
When we open the milk jars, there has been a seal formed that needs to be broken. So, where and how could listeria enter the milk? Our goat has been tested for every goat disease and has been declared to be disease-free.
I drink our raw milk as long as it tastes good, actually have had very few ever start to go bad. Usually they just turn into something else, like a clabber. I don't buy all the hype about the dangers of raw milk, how many food recalls have there been from produce this year? We have pastured goats and are careful with the milk, all our jars and milking equipment get sterilized, never had an issue. That said, does not mean it is right for everyone. I just get so tired of all the raw milk scares. I would NEVER drink raw milk from a huge cow dairy, no way! Thousands of cows all in a crap pit side by side laying in again crap..That can't be good. I have 5 healthy goats in a pasture, my milk is fine. I know each and every goat whose milk I drink, unlike dairy milk, or store milk, how many millions of cows milk are you drinking? It all goes into the big milk tanks, my husband used to haul semi milk tanks across the country to add to more milk to make cheese, Idaho milk hauled to Wisconsin I think then made into cheese and packaged in another state, I can't remember. Just my point Idaho milk went clear to Wisconsin in its raw state to be mixed with milk from who knows where, ok, getting off my soap box now.
sorry for the rant.... :-[
As far as drinking milk that has been in the fridge for a week or 2 , all of the bacteria are being suppressed from growing so their levels should be low enough not to be of any harm.
The danger in raw milk if there is any , and I should say that I too feel the dangers are over blown, but the one thing that does increase the risk is warming the milk that has been sitting for a week or 2 in the fridge and then making cheese with it , this long time in the fridge gives the listeria a chance to increase in numbers more than the envimental levels and then when heated it has a head start on the other good bacteria.
I, use raw milk all the time to make soft cheeses that are aged less than 60 days and I have no fears about getting sick. I actually think it makes us healthier.
I agree with you Gregore, if you have lots of the good bacteria in your gut from eating a healthy diet full of raw foods, not just milk, but whole foods and live foods we are better equiped to handle the bad bacteria that sneaks into our bodies.
Just make sure you are as sanitary as you reasonably can and make sure your milk's safe. Listeria outbreaks are obviously not super common -- this (http://www.cdc.gov/listeria/outbreaks/) lists all of nine occurrences in the last five years. Be careful, be safe, and don't sweat it.
Quote from: Stinky on November 12, 2015, 06:09:03 PM
Just make sure you are as sanitary as you reasonably can and make sure your milk's safe. Listeria outbreaks are obviously not super common -- this (http://www.cdc.gov/listeria/outbreaks/) lists all of nine occurrences in the last five years. Be careful, be safe, and don't sweat it.
Thank you! I have sterilized the equipment by boiling for 20 min. minimum, boiled the bags for longer, and used parchment to mix in the salt with disposable gloves on, wearing a shower cap as well. I hung the cheese in the oven overnight.
My one concern is the one batch of milk that I used which was 5 days old. I tasted it, and it actually turned out to be the best tasting of the bunch, but some have said that the older the milk, the greater the chance for listeria, so that kind of freaked me out.
Quote from: narnia on November 12, 2015, 06:36:11 PM
Quote from: Stinky on November 12, 2015, 06:09:03 PM
Just make sure you are as sanitary as you reasonably can and make sure your milk's safe. Listeria outbreaks are obviously not super common -- this (http://www.cdc.gov/listeria/outbreaks/) lists all of nine occurrences in the last five years. Be careful, be safe, and don't sweat it.
Thank you! I have sterilized the equipment by boiling for 20 min. minimum, boiled the bags for longer, and used parchment to mix in the salt with disposable gloves on, wearing a shower cap as well. I hung the cheese in the oven overnight.
My one concern is the one batch of milk that I used which was 5 days old. I tasted it, and it actually turned out to be the best tasting of the bunch, but some have said that the older the milk, the greater the chance for listeria, so that kind of freaked me out.
Ten minutes should be fine as well, I think much beyond that won't make a huge difference.
I will note that you are being very cautious, which is good, but you don't need to overworry yourself. I tend to use my hands when convenient, just wash them thoroughly first. For example, many members on ehre like to stir their curds with bare hands. This is really fun and you should try it sometime for an aged mesophilic cheese. It's really fascinating feeling the curd and how it changes over time, and you can do a much better job of stirring it than you would with something where you can't feel down there.
Just remember that people centuries ago did not have disposable gloves and all the fancy sanitization equipment, and they rarely got sick. If you're particularly concerned about a batch of milk that's older and you want to use it for cheese, you can of course pasteurize it before you use, which means it isn't quite as good but saves you some stress.
If there's a batch of cheese you're worried about, don't eat it if you have a compromised immune system, or try a little bit first and see how you handle that. The Alliance for Listeriosis Prevention (http://www.listeriosisprevention.com/facts.html#shouldo) says the following
"
The risk of an individual person developing Listeria infection after consumption of a contaminated product is very small. If you have eaten a contaminated product and do not have any symptoms,
we do not recommend that you have any tests or treatment, even if you are in a high-risk group. However, if you are in a high-risk group, have eaten the contaminated product, and within two months become ill with fever or signs of serious illness, you should contact your physician and inform him or her about this exposure."
As far as danger goes through the hole chain of milking to storage to cheese making to aging then to eating , the closer to milking the cow you expose the milk to pathogens the more you increase the risk of illness .
If you contaminate the cheese with a little pathogen that is on your hand as it goes into your mouth then getting sick is next to nil. But if you get that same pathogen in the milk as you milk the cow then store it for 2 weeks then heat it to make cheese then eat it 4 days later , the chances are increased .
You have another option for milk that you think is suspect because of fridge aging , you could age the cheese out to 60 days plus by making a goat milk tomme .
Also I remember you mentioning you use kefir ? If so it is non sterile kefir grains that are added to the milk that have survived through many hundreds of years of evolution and competition for food sources , they have adapted to out competing many other things that are wild in the environment , thus keeping us safer.
No, I have never mentioned kefir. I have never made kefir, so I am totally unfamiliar with it.
Sorry mixed you up with another from here.
You might want to try it , as I mentioned it does have some advantages , look up on the web (kefir lady .com )
I am the kefir user! I love the stuff. My cheeses have come out great using it as a starter culture. I don't have the meters and all that I just go by curd feel and cross my fingers. My last batch of cheese I stirred with my hands, it is amazing to feel the transformation and your right, so much easier on the curd and to keep it moving.
Quote from: lovinglife on November 13, 2015, 02:50:24 PM
I am the kefir user! I love the stuff. My cheeses have come out great using it as a starter culture. I don't have the meters and all that I just go by curd feel and cross my fingers. My last batch of cheese I stirred with my hands, it is amazing to feel the transformation and your right, so much easier on the curd and to keep it moving.
Would you mind explaining WHAT exactly are you stirring with your hands? At what stage of what kind of cheese?
Are you not using any kind of culture but the kefir? I am very confused, since I have made only 2 batches of cheese with pre-measured "chevre" packets that is all-inclusive.
On stirred curd cheeses which is most cheese but not all , he uses his hand to stir rather than a large spoon or paddle or some such device . It makes it easier to not tear the curds to pieces .
As far as using kefir as a starter you can use kefir and a starter from a package plus rennet , or just kefir And rennet or just rennet . As your goats milk has all the starter bacteria already in it . The only thing is that with kefir or just the goat milk , it will take a while longer for the ph to drop to below 5
With just the goat milk and rennet there is also a little higher risk of unwanted bacteria getting going before the good ones take off. Also you have no idea of the flavor profile you will end up,with . Could be you have amazing flavored bacteria in your area or could be they are not very flavorful.
Hmmm...this cheesemaking is a lot more complex than I ever dreamed!!! My hats off to all you cheesemakers!
Chevre is pretty bland even with starter culture. I think the kefir gives it a little more oomph. I add my starter/kefir and wait an hour then add the rennet and forget it for the night. Has always worked great.
Our chevre does not taste bland to me at all. At least with our goat's milk anyway. Tastes amazing to me!
But, the Kefir sounds like a great idea! A great way to add some bennie bacteria to the cheese!