I make aged lactic curd goat cheese with raw milk from my own herd in upstate NY. After reading about Mother Noella in Connecticut I was inspired to try using a wooden vat. I do know that NY Ag and Markets would never let me use it if I intended to sell, but this is just for me and my friends. I have ordered a used 58 gal oaken wine barrel from CA. I intend to cut it in half at the bung and have two 20 gal vats. How do I clean and maintain it between batches? Rinse and scrub with plain water then drip dry? Wash with vinegar? I do not want to use harsh detergents as I do want to foster the interesting microflora. Any ideas or ideas of other issues that may come up with this vat? Thanks!
Hi Gene
I hate to cast a damper on your idea but I think I can see a problem here from what I know of wood. Things like barrels and boats need to be kept wet so that the timber swells and seals the joints. I suspect that if you cut a barrel in half the shape of the staves will change and it will leak like a sieve.
I may be wrong. I hope I am. If I'm right though, you will have a couple of nice plant pots.
Good point. If all goes well, I will be making a new batch every other day during the season. I let the milk set for 24 hrs to ripen before ladling. Hopefully that might be enough to keep the wood fibers saturated and swollen. That still leaves the the question of off-season. My hope is that filling it with water for a day or two at the start of the new season might work to rehydrated the fibers and make it useable again. Or I could fill it with a heavy salt brine to carry it through the off season. Here is a link to what I ordered: http://www.amazon.com/Wine-Barrel-Solid-Valley-Creations/dp/B004Q2AUTO?ie=UTF8&psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00 (http://www.amazon.com/Wine-Barrel-Solid-Valley-Creations/dp/B004Q2AUTO?ie=UTF8&psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00)
Frankly, I'd be very concerned about the build up of pathogens. What you propose would never be allowed in a commercial cheese operation for the simple reason that it could never be thoroughly cleaned. You say that you are not planning to sell any cheese that you make but that "this is just for me and my friends". So, I take it that you believe that it is OK to subject your family and friends to the chance of death by listeria or other deadly pathogens but agree that you can't subject strangers because "I do know that NY Ag and Markets would never let me use it". I hate to be harsh and nasty here but you are putting false esthetics ahead of safety and the outcome of doing this is never good. :P
Oak barrels are used to age whiskies and sherry. They use them because there is an exchange between the charred oak and the liquor. Scotch is aged in used Sherry barrels and takes part of it's taste from the sherry that soaked into the wood and the charred wood. Whisky also gets its color from the oak barrels. It is clear when distilled. Not a good choice for making cheese.
Thanks Kern and Al for your input. Kern, I know you mean well and sanitation is critical. I would rather keep the focus of this thread to maintaining the wooden vat. The issue you raise is much more complex and can be very divisive. If you want to contact me offline I would be happy to point you to a few scientific studies that show wood is actually safer than stainless steel--sounds crazy doesn't it? Al, what you say is true, but liquor, or wine in this case, is kept in the barrel for months and years at a time. My milk will be there for 24 hours.
24 hours each time and the whey will soak in each time. I would suggest you take a look at the latest research on wooden shelving in cheese caves. http://www.forbes.com/sites/gregorymcneal/2014/06/10/fda-backs-down-in-fight-over-aged-cheese/ (http://www.forbes.com/sites/gregorymcneal/2014/06/10/fda-backs-down-in-fight-over-aged-cheese/) You already know it's not safe for public sale as you stated earlier so if you don't mind risking your friend and families health then knock yourself out. Seems you've already made your mind up and are just looking for someone to justify what you are planning on doing already.
Thanks Al for the input and your concern for my friends and family. You are right about the whey soaking in, that is exactly want I want and hope for. I want to establish a diverse biofilm of bacteria that will go to work on my fresh milk to help colonize and acidify the milk. As I mentioned earlier, while a worthy discussion, a debate of raw vs sterile is not the one I am asking about. You are correct, my mind is made up on that score. I realize that for some people sterile, dead food is the only way to have safe food. I and many other people disagree. We are all covered head to toe , inside (GI tract) and out (skin) with microbes. Without a thriving colony of "good" bacteria we would soon cease to thrive. That is why people on antibiotics get diarrhea and start taking probiotics.
If anyone has ideas of how to promote a beneficial biofilm and maintain the wood, I would love to read your ideas.
Quote from: Gene on April 05, 2016, 06:10:35 PM
Thanks Kern and Al for your input. Kern, I know you mean well and sanitation is critical. I would rather keep the focus of this thread to maintaining the wooden vat. The issue you raise is much more complex and can be very divisive.
Here's the problem: You can't "sanitize" just for the bad bacteria. You have to sanitize for all the bacteria or none of the bacterial at all. Bad pathogenic bacterial (listeria, et al) thrive in protein rich environments. That's why they are bad. Our bodies contain lots of proteins just like whey contains proteins. Aging wine or whiskey in oak barrels is very different simply because both contain an antiseptic (alcohol). Wine obviously contains less. Still it contains very little protein. Finally, bad wine gives lots of warning: In looks brown, smells and tastes like vinegar, will likely be cloudy, etc. Cheese containing listeria provides for no warning at all. You eat it, it can taste good, and several hours later you get very sick and if you are unlucky you die.
Since you can't sanitize your wooden vat without destroying the reason you want the vat in the first place, there is no way you can properly "maintain" your wooden vat. It is as simple as this. Case closed!
For anyone who has Netflix, I would highly recommend watching their documentary series "Cooked". It is a series with 4 episodes based on the 4 elements (fire, water, air, earth) and incorporates the elements into food/cooking. They are all quite interesting and at times thought provoking. The "Earth" episode is about fermentation and includes discussion about cheese rind ecology and a good segment featuring the Cheese Nun and her wooden vat. Contrary to what you would think, potential pathogenic bacteria are much lower with her wooden vat than with a clean, sanitized stainless vat. She actually proved to the local regulators that the numbers of E. coli were much lower in the wooden vat than the stainless vat they wanted her to use. She has a PhD in microbiology so did this scientifically. She can now use the wooden vat to produce cheese commercially.
Susan
Quote from: SOSEATTLE on April 06, 2016, 01:16:34 AM
For anyone who has Netflix, I would highly recommend watching their documentary series "Cooked". It is a series with 4 episodes based on the 4 elements (fire, water, air, earth) and incorporates the elements into food/cooking. They are all quite interesting and at times thought provoking. The "Earth" episode is about fermentation and includes discussion about cheese rind ecology and a good segment featuring the Cheese Nun and her wooden vat. Contrary to what you would think, potential pathogenic bacteria are much lower with her wooden vat than with a clean, sanitized stainless vat. She actually proved to the local regulators that the numbers of E. coli were much lower in the wooden vat than the stainless vat they wanted her to use. She has a PhD in microbiology so did this scientifically. She can now use the wooden vat to produce cheese commercially.
What you post may well be true but this is not a discussion of wood versus steel. Gene has stated that he wants to use a wooden barrel vat and let it develop its own bacterial flora. I have simply pointed out that doing so may also result in growing harmful pathogens because you can't selectively sterilize any vat to kill only the harmful pathogens and preserve the beneficial bacterial. I suspect that the Cheese Nun sterilizes to kill everything and recommend that Gene do the same if he wants to use his half barrel vat to make cheese. I have not seen "Cooked" but I'll bet that the Cheese Nun does not use a wood vat with the nooks and crannies that one finds in a wooden staved barrel. Pathogens can grow in these little voids as they are continuously damp and contain whey proteins. Finally, I was referring specifically to Listeria - a pathogen with a much higher fatality rate than E. coli.
Just because wood is porous doesn't make it less sanitary than glass, metal or plastic. While I know of no research on cheese vats in particular, there have been several studies on the safety of wooden vs plastic/glass cutting boards. Specifically, attention was paid to how bacteria hides in the cuts and crevices of used cutting boards. This should be analogous to how bacteria might behave in a barrel.
Short version: When Salmonella, Listeria and Escherichia coli were applied to wooden cutting boards, the bacteria died within three minutes while none died on the plastic cutting boards. When incubated overnight at room temperature, no bacteria were found on the wooden cutting boards while the bacterial counts on plastic cutting boards actually increased. Source: http://www.nytimes.com/1993/02/10/health/wooden-cutting-boards-found-safer-than-plastic.html (http://www.nytimes.com/1993/02/10/health/wooden-cutting-boards-found-safer-than-plastic.html)
It is unknown why the wood is so bactericidal. While the porous nature of wood does allow some bacteria to penetrate below the surface, it is very difficult of the bacteria to ever be released again. Washing the wood with a quaternary ammonium detergent (spray cleaner) preserves its antibacterial properties. Plastic requires chlorine bleach. Source: https://news.ncsu.edu/2014/09/cutting-boards-food-safety/ (https://news.ncsu.edu/2014/09/cutting-boards-food-safety/)
Finally, the research page of the UC Davis Food Safety Lab concerning wooden cutting boards: http://faculty.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/faculty/docliver/Research/cuttingboard.htm (http://faculty.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/faculty/docliver/Research/cuttingboard.htm) Dean Cliver started this research project to see what kind of sterilization was needed to make wooden cutting boards as "almost as safe" as plastic ones, but it turns out wood was the best choice all along. Quote from the above link: "... we regard it as the best epidemiological evidence available to date that wooden cutting boards are not a hazard to human health, but plastic cutting boards may be."
Wash your wooden barrel with hot, soapy water and then let it dry thoroughly. Yes, the barrel will shrink and you'll have to swell it again before it will hold water/whey next time, but there's little chance in anything bad carrying over.
One last quote from my favorite TV chef, Gareth Blackstock: "That's what cheese is - gone-off milk with bugs and mold! That's why it tastes so good!"
Cheerio,
Brochis
Quote from: Brochis on April 06, 2016, 04:50:22 AM
While I know of no research on cheese vats in particular, [snip]
That would be because I hadn't looked. Turns out there is a recent article on wooden vats and cheesemaking, specifically looking for Listeria but also checking for E. coli, Salmonella enteritidis and Staphylococcus aureus. It's from an open access journal so you can download the entire article and read it. There's several nice pictures of cheese being made in the article.
I'll just post the abstract and conclusion here:
from Italian Journal of Food Safety 2015; volume 4:4509 no. 1 pages 36-39
http://www.ijfs.it/ (http://www.ijfs.it/)
direct article download: http://www.pagepressjournals.org/index.php/ijfs/article/download/ijfs.2015.4509/4534 (http://www.pagepressjournals.org/index.php/ijfs/article/download/ijfs.2015.4509/4534)
Characterisation of the microflora contaminating the wooden vats used for traditional Sicilian cheese production
Abstract
Traditional Sicilian cheese productions are carried out employing traditional wooden vats, called tina. Many studies have highlighted the beneficial role of wooden dairy equipment by contributing to enriching the milk microflora and improving the acidification processes. The present work was undertaken to evaluate the safety of the wooden vats used to coagulate milk. To this purpose, the different microbial populations hosted onto the internal surfaces of the vats used to produce two different stretched cheeses, namely Caciocavallo Palermitano and Vastedda della valle del Belìce DOP, were investigated for the presence of spoilage and pathogenic microorganisms as well as for bacteria with inhibitory effect in vitro against pathogenic microorganisms. A wide biodiversity of protechnological lactic acid bacteria (LAB), in terms of species, was revealed. Several LAB inhibited the growth of Listeria monocytogenes ATCC 7644. The wooden vats analysed resulted safe for three main findings: absence of the main pathogenic species, presence of high levels of LAB, anti-Listeria activity of many LAB.
Conclusion
The correct maintenance of wooden vats, as part of good manufacturing practices of the Caciocavallo Palermitano and the Vastedda della valle del Belìce DOP cheese production, promotes the selection of a microbial flora able to play an active role in the achievement of the food safety objectives through the biocompetitive activity of LAB and the inhibitory activity against pathogenic bacteria, particularly L. monocytogenes.
Cheerio,
Brochis
Brochis quotes one study done in Italy and then proposes that the results of this study can be made to be true everywhere. Perhaps this study is universal and perhaps it is not. But as stated above my argument does not concern wood versus steel (or plastic for that matter). It is whether or not you can selectively sterilize a wooden barrel with likely openings between the staves so as to preserve the good bacteria and kill the bad. I contend that this cannot be done with the assurance that all harmful bacterial are killed between each batch of cheese or over the extended period when the cheese is not being made. But, set all my arguments aside and consider only this: At best, using a wooden vat with its own micro-flora might arguably add some interesting character to a cheese that otherwise would not be present from the same cheese made in a SS vat. At worst, the wood could contain deadly pathogens that could contaminate the cheese and bring injury or death to those who consume it. So, the real question comes down to this: In the normal course of cheese making what can be more reliably maintained to thwart the possible growth of pathogens - a porous wood vat or a SS vat?
I doubt that you can find a microbiologist that will argue that the wood vat can more reliably be maintained than a SS vat. So at what point does an arguably better tasting cheese justify a higher probability of sickness that could result in death?
Here is a link to an interesting book, chapters 5 and 8 are of particular interest for this discussion. 5 is co-authored by Sister Noella Marcellino who is also known as the "cheese nun". A trained microbiologist, her research has shown that the wooden vat is actually safer than stainless steel in regards to pathogens, including Listeria.
Cheese and Microbes
https://issuu.com/quiasma/docs/1555815863
Excellent book by the way.
Quote from: Kern on April 06, 2016, 04:31:41 AM
What you post may well be true but this is not a discussion of wood versus steel. Gene has stated that he wants to use a wooden barrel vat and let it develop its own bacterial flora. I have simply pointed out that doing so may also result in growing harmful pathogens because you can't selectively sterilize any vat to kill only the harmful pathogens and preserve the beneficial bacterial. I suspect that the Cheese Nun sterilizes to kill everything and recommend that Gene do the same if he wants to use his half barrel vat to make cheese. I have not seen "Cooked" but I'll bet that the Cheese Nun does not use a wood vat with the nooks and crannies that one finds in a wooden staved barrel. Pathogens can grow in these little voids as they are continuously damp and contain whey proteins. Finally, I was referring specifically to Listeria - a pathogen with a much higher fatality rate than E. coli.
Actually, from what I saw in the documentary, she does not sterilize the wooden vat between uses. The vat she was using appeared to be similar to a staved half barrel. The point of her choice to use a wood vat was that non-pathogenic "good" bacteria colonize the wood so heavily they prevent the "bad" bacteria from proliferating. If this is to happen, then the wood would not be heavily cleaned or sterilized. Also, what holds true for E. coli can also hold true for Listeria. According to the documentary this is the method preferred by traditional French cheese makers and has been used for many generations successfully. I would suggest viewing the documentary before speculating.
Susan
Quote from: Gene on April 06, 2016, 09:56:26 PM
Here is a link to an interesting book, chapters 5 and 8 are of particular interest for this discussion. 5 is co-authored by Sister Noella Marcellino who is also known as the "cheese nun". A trained microbiologist, her research has shown that the wooden vat is actually safer than stainless steel in regards to pathogens, including Listeria.
Cheese and Microbes
https://issuu.com/quiasma/docs/1555815863
Here are some quotations from chapter 8 of the above referenced book:
"Very few data exist regarding the inoculation of wood by microorganisms."
"Microbial adhesion was dependent on the wood species and microorganisms tested."
"It is clearly stated that surfaces in contact with milk should be easy to clean and well maintained. This requires smooth, washable and nontoxic surfaces. After use these surfaces should be cleaned and, if necessary, disinfected.... Wood porosity clearly does not fit the requirement for a smooth surface and plastic and stainless steel utensils are preferred."
"Currently no legislation or guidelines exist in Europe regarding the cleaning of wooden tools. The only mandatory aspect is to guarantee the efficiency of the cleaning regarding potential contamination by pathogen species."
"In the scientific literature only two [types] of wood vats have been explored."
"All [regulations] support the use of wood without restriction, provided that the appropriate cleaning and drying procedures are utilized. General guidelines for wood management in the dairy sector are missing and would be of great value to the future of artisan cheese production. Many scientific questions remain..."
It seems that my arguments stand as the author's statements support them: No protocol has been developed to maintain and clean wood so as to guarantee that it is pathogen free. Such a protocol would have to kill pathogens without harming beneficial bacteria. Otherwise there is no advantage to using a wood vat beyond the aesthetics of "doing it the old way".
That some Italian cheese making operations are said to have been safely making Listeria free cheese in wooden vats for many, many years is proof of nothing. I quote from the following. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Listeria_monocytogenes)
L. monocytogenes was not identified as a cause of foodborne illness until 1981, however. An outbreak of listeriosis in Halifax, Nova Scotia, involving 41 cases and 18 deaths, mostly in pregnant women and neonates, was epidemiologically linked to the consumption of coleslaw containing cabbage that had been contaminated with L. monocytogenes-contaminated sheep manure.[17] Since then, a number of cases of foodborne listeriosis have been reported, and L. monocytogenes is now widely recognized as an important hazard in the food industry.
Really the only way to make cheese and be absolutely sure sure you have no bad bacteria is in a bio clean room .
As for the wooden barrel it works exactly like we all make cheese . We add a starter to a food source and expect it to get a running start on anything bad that might fly in from us or the environment . And that is what the barrel does , the cheese is cultured in it down to,a low ph and that kills off any pathogens or reduces them then the next day you start all over again , and thus further reduce the level of potential pathogens , day after day after day .
That is why it is safer than stainless , there is no head start for the good guys to get going.
The only problem I see is that you are not using it every day , day in day out like cheese makers of the long past.
The whole thing is similar to kombucha and kefir making , I wondered why it was so safe to make and I did a little testing when my wife made a new batch. The ph when it was ready to,drink was 2.5 for the kombucha and 3 something for the kefir , then you hold back some and add it to the new fresh milk or sugar water . The ph when tested was so low with the addition of the hold back that there was no way for bad anything to live in it.
I suspect that it is almost the same with the barrel the acid drops so fast from the left over cultures in the barrel that there is not much of a chance of bad cultures growing .
Most of what is bantered about about the dangers of bacteria in milk come from a time when we moved cows to the city ( and I do mean right into the city)and fed them mash from the distilleries so we could all drink our selves silly and give the milk from the sick cows to out children ..... All in the name of profit .
statistically the most dangerous thing the average person will ever do is strap on a seat belt and drive a car.
the chamber has 8000 slots and only 1 bullet we think it is safe because we do it every day and manage to make it home at night , Milk pathogens from cheese has more than a million slots and 1 bullet , and yet it scares us to death .
Don't see any one warning me not to drive , and or drive my friends around.
I recommend contacting the cheese nun and asking if she would be willing to share with us any info she has on the use and maintenance of wooden barrels for cheese making .
If you don't mind me asking, how do you plan on heating the milk in your wooden barrel? ??? Also, there is this from their site.
QuoteQuestion: How long would it take, in your opinion, for the 'wine' aroma to dissipate? We would like to use as a basin stand in a powder room.
Answer: Like the others, there's not much of an odor associated with ours. However, don't forget to put water in the bottom of the barrel from time to time, and put a stopper in it as well. If you don't it will dry out and the bands will fall off!
By Cheryl Martin on March 2, 2014
Al,
The cheese I make is an aged, uncooked lactic curd goat cheese. (I imagine it's much like the Humboldt Fog made by Cypress Grove--though I haven't tried their product to say for sure.) The temperature range during the 24 hr milk incubation is 75 - 85°F. I like to combine the current morning milking while it's still warm with the previous evening milk which has been chilled overnight. I may have to warm it slightly before adding it to the wooden vat. This particular cheese has really worked well for me, both in terms scheduling around my job and goat chores, and with the cool mountain climate of this area. It has garnered several fans among my friends, most particularly with a lady from the French Pyrenees.
The wine barrel just arrived today. Once I have a chance to cut it, make a lid and the current batch of kids weaned leaving me milk to work with,, I'll post pics of the first making.
So did you cut your barrel yet ?
I just saw this thread now , wish I'd have seen it earlier.
Before you cut it , drill some 1 inch teck screws thru the hoops and into each wood stave , that will keep it from falling apart when cut.
And yes , I would keep it full of a saturated brine when not in use , if cared for properly , it should work fine.
Actually , some of the worlds best Feta is aged in oak barrels , and the barrels are re-used many times.
Barrel Aged Feta
Barrel Aged Feta is a classic Greek style feta made from a mixture of sheep's and goat's pasteurized milk, produced by Mt. Vikos, Greece. The cheese is aged in 120-pound oak barrels for about 6 months. the cheese is crumbly yet creamy in texture with rich, sweet and tangy flavour.
As I understand , that's how washed curd cheeses came about , as they couldn't heat their wooden vats , so hot water was added to the milk to heat it up.
Good luck.
JWalker,
I did get the barrel and a friend cut it into halves for me and even made lids. He didn't use screws or anything else to hold the staves together. The original metal bands have been sufficient. I have been very pleased with it. I make a batch every 5 days using about 11 to 13 gallons of goat milk and 2 gallons of well water heated to bring the vat up to around 72. The milk/curds/whey stay in the vat for 2 to 3 days (I never need to inoculate the milk), then the vat is emptied and rinsed and scrubbed using ground temperature well water and a dairy brush until the water runs clear. If unused the inside of the vat starts developing a covering of white mold, and green/blue mold above the usual milk level. Not sure yet when I will quit milking this season. Will probably just clean the vat and flip it over untill next season. The make room is generally unheated. As to the cheese quality, I am very pleased. Everyone marvels at the depth and complexity of flavor that they have never experienced in store bought chevre, and it is very consistent in results. Now with the cooler fall temperatures I have been able to go back to making the small aged tome that my friends love.
Like to hear more about the use of barrels, haven't yet read every post. Will they be used for brine?
Hi VR,
No, but using my second vat for brine sounds like a good idea. My initial post should explain what I am using my primary vat for.
Re: My wooden wine barrels~each time I plan to use them I have to slowly fill with a dribbling hose until they stop leaking and hold water, sometimes it takes a day or more. If you'll be using the cheese vat every day or every other day they may not dry out like a wine barrel.
Just a thought.
Richard