Hi guys, I'm new here.
Just looking through this forum and it's awesome.. so much info bout cheese making :)
As per title, is it possible to use cultured yogurt as a substitute for thermophilic cultures ? (
I live in Malaysia and cheese making is never a thing here.
So things like thermophili/mosephilic cultures is impossible to obtain locally.
I want to buy some via online but the shipping price is ridiculously expensive.
Side note - How do I add salt to my mozzarella? I made some last week, it was great, shiny and stretchy but it lacks flavor/didn't stay in it's round shape.
- is it compulsory to use Lipase? Again another impossible item to obtain here and there's the "halal" issue going on.
Hi Achik1990 :) Welcome !
my first thoughts are "it seems like many people are looking for cheesemaking cultures and supplies in Malaysia and surrounding areas" i think I've seen many post saying the same thing... I think an entrepreneurial minded individual can make a good little part-time business buying cultures in bulk and reselling them. Add some moulds and other cheesemaking supplies later one will have a good little business there. just saying ;)
I would also like to direct you to https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,14501.msg111031.html#msg111031 (https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,14501.msg111031.html#msg111031) and suggest "The Art of Natural Cheesemaking" by David Asher .. he uses natural cultures including yogurt and kefir for cheesemaking. I don't own the book but there may be a mozza recipe in there for you.
Making cheese from yogurt is not my subject matter speciality but will try to help. Mozza is normally made with either thermo, thermo/meso combo or citric acid.. in my opinion the thermo/meso combo makes the best flavoured mozza. Because of the high temperatures used the meso cultures will die (but the meso enzimes left behind are benificial to the rest of the process when the thermo cultures takes over/continue). Your yogurt cultures are quite meso in character, often not able to withstand more than 110*. So this is where your challenge lays.
mozza is usually salted using brine after it has been shaped.. to keep the shape of mozza ... irregardless to whatever that shape may be... plunge the formed mozza into ice water for about 1/2 hr... it will stay in its round shape in your case.
Lipase is not necessary, it is a flavouring enzyme and makes cheese taste "cheesier" I guess, adds an "aged" or even "goat-y" like character flavour to cheese.
I hope someone can jump in and add to my verbage so we can both be educated.
Best of luck, achick1990
F
David Asher has a recipe for using kefir as a starter for Mozzarella...he also uses kefir to make yoghurt (which works really well BTW). As yoghurt is incubated at 100-110f, I guess most meso cultures will have been killed off? but there are still good thermo cultures which should be active in any good yoghurt. Maybe this means that to make Mozz with a yoghurt starter you would have to ripen/rennet at 100f to develop the necessary acidity? I dont know.
If you like, I can look into the cost of airmailing DVI cultures from Australia...I just don't know how long they would last (survive) in transit. I suggest you see if you can find anyone with Milk Keffir grains to sell/give you, and a copy of David Asher's book.
Also, search for posts by forum member AnnDee (annideen@gmail.com), who also lives in Malaysia, and see what she does...
Edwin
Quote from: Fritz on September 10, 2016, 06:00:12 PM
Hi Achik1990 :) Welcome !
my first thoughts are "it seems like many people are looking for cheesemaking cultures and supplies in Malaysia and surrounding areas" i think I've seen many post saying the same thing... I think an entrepreneurial minded individual can make a good little part-time business buying cultures in bulk and reselling them. Add some moulds and other cheesemaking supplies later one will have a good little business there. just saying ;)
I would also like to direct you to https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,14501.msg111031.html#msg111031 (https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,14501.msg111031.html#msg111031) and suggest "The Art of Natural Cheesemaking" by David Asher .. he uses natural cultures including yogurt and kefir for cheesemaking. I don't own the book but there may be a mozza recipe in there for you.
Making cheese from yogurt is not my subject matter speciality but will try to help. Mozza is normally made with either thermo, thermo/meso combo or citric acid.. in my opinion the thermo/meso combo makes the best flavoured mozza. Because of the high temperatures used the meso cultures will die (but the meso enzimes left behind are benificial to the rest of the process when the thermo cultures takes over/continue). Your yogurt cultures are quite meso in character, often not able to withstand more than 110*. So this is where your challenge lays.
mozza is usually salted using brine after it has been shaped.. to keep the shape of mozza ... irregardless to whatever that shape may be... plunge the formed mozza into ice water for about 1/2 hr... it will stay in its round shape in your case.
Lipase is not necessary, it is a flavouring enzyme and makes cheese taste "cheesier" I guess, adds an "aged" or even "goat-y" like character flavour to cheese.
I hope someone can jump in and add to my verbage so we can both be educated.
Best of luck, achick1990
F
Thanks ;)
I kinda had a crazy idea... what if I combine yogurt starter + citric acid? to get the ideal acidity ?
Like 1 gallon of milk + 1/2 tsp citric acid + Some yogurt? not sure the amount though.
Will it be alright? or will the citric acid kill the culture?
also how to i season my mozzarella? In a brine solution or directly add salt during the kneading process?
I found this recipe on the internet (www.thecheesemaker.com/content/making_hybrid_mozzarella.pdf (http://www.thecheesemaker.com/content/making_hybrid_mozzarella.pdf)) looks good but not sure if its legit or not ???
Quote from: wattlebloke on September 10, 2016, 11:05:19 PM
David Asher has a recipe for using kefir as a starter for Mozzarella...he also uses kefir to make yoghurt (which works really well BTW). As yoghurt is incubated at 100-110f, I guess most meso cultures will have been killed off? but there are still good thermo cultures which should be active in any good yoghurt. Maybe this means that to make Mozz with a yoghurt starter you would have to ripen/rennet at 100f to develop the necessary acidity? I dont know.
If you like, I can look into the cost of airmailing DVI cultures from Australia...I just don't know how long they would last (survive) in transit. I suggest you see if you can find anyone with Milk Keffir grains to sell/give you, and a copy of David Asher's book.
Also, search for posts by forum member AnnDee (annideen@gmail.com), who also lives in Malaysia, and see what she does...
Edwin
What if I add citric acid (like 1/2 tsp for 1 gallon of milk)? Will it be alright? Not sure whether the citric acid will kill the culture :-[
That would be awesome .. please if you have the time do look into the cost. :-*
I found this recipe on the internet (www.thecheesemaker.com/content/making_hybrid_mozzarella.pdf (http://www.thecheesemaker.com/content/making_hybrid_mozzarella.pdf)) looks good but not sure if its legit or not ???
:) to season your mozzarella: I mentioned the mozzarella balls are brined after shaping.
Quote from: Fritz on September 11, 2016, 06:14:13 AM
:) to season your mozzarella: I mentioned the mozzarella balls are brined after shaping.
My bad .didn't notice the last part.
Anyway .. thank you soo much for the info.
Might as well try it out.. haha
Hi, Achik, and welcome to the forum. There is at least one other cheese-maker here from Malaysia - KazAugustin is her screen name.
My understanding may be backwards, but ... I think thermo cultures are dominant in most yoghurts. Cultured buttermilk, by contrast, features mostly mesophilic cultures. So yes, using yoghurt is certainly a way to make mozzarella.
I would recommend NOT try to combine cultures (yoghurt) + citric acid. The whole point of using cultures is to let the cultures develop acidity as they multiply. This gives you a chance to test the readiness of the curd for the ideal pH for stretching - either using a pH meter, or just taking a little of the curd and trying it in hot water to see if it is at the right stage.
Citric acid, by contrast, is all-or-nothing -- you are simply pushing the pH down immediately, and if you miss the ideal pH "window," then it is too bad, so sad. :( I suppose in theory you could increase the acidity a bit with a small amount of citric acid, and then let the cultures take it the rest of the way ... but why? You lose the benefit of the extra flavor imparted by the development of the cultures, and you gain very little except maybe a little less time.
Now, with all of that said ... give some thought to trying out other cheeses besides mozzarella. Moz is widely featured as a cheese for beginners, but in fact, based on both personal experience and countless posts on this forum, even experienced cheesemakers find it to be quite challenging to get it right. The only reason I can think of that it is pushed as a beginner's cheese is that 1) it is possible to avoid using cultures, using citric acid instead, and 2) it does not require a press. But with regard to #1, you still have to use rennet, and that's a lot harder than finding cultures (since you can use yoghurt or buttermilk in addition to the freeze-dried cultures). And, in my experience, it is quite challenging to get just the right amount of citric acid, and it tends to make the milk curdle (not form curds, but curdle) before you can even add the rennet.
Quote from: awakephd on September 11, 2016, 05:34:54 PM
Hi, Achik, and welcome to the forum. There is at least one other cheese-maker here from Malaysia - KazAugustin is her screen name.
My understanding may be backwards, but ... I think thermo cultures are dominant in most yoghurts. Cultured buttermilk, by contrast, features mostly mesophilic cultures. So yes, using yoghurt is certainly a way to make mozzarella.
I would recommend NOT try to combine cultures (yoghurt) + citric acid. The whole point of using cultures is to let the cultures develop acidity as they multiply. This gives you a chance to test the readiness of the curd for the ideal pH for stretching - either using a pH meter, or just taking a little of the curd and trying it in hot water to see if it is at the right stage.
Citric acid, by contrast, is all-or-nothing -- you are simply pushing the pH down immediately, and if you miss the ideal pH "window," then it is too bad, so sad. :( I suppose in theory you could increase the acidity a bit with a small amount of citric acid, and then let the cultures take it the rest of the way ... but why? You lose the benefit of the extra flavor imparted by the development of the cultures, and you gain very little except maybe a little less time.
Now, with all of that said ... give some thought to trying out other cheeses besides mozzarella. Moz is widely featured as a cheese for beginners, but in fact, based on both personal experience and countless posts on this forum, even experienced cheesemakers find it to be quite challenging to get it right. The only reason I can think of that it is pushed as a beginner's cheese is that 1) it is possible to avoid using cultures, using citric acid instead, and 2) it does not require a press. But with regard to #1, you still have to use rennet, and that's a lot harder than finding cultures (since you can use yoghurt or buttermilk in addition to the freeze-dried cultures). And, in my experience, it is quite challenging to get just the right amount of citric acid, and it tends to make the milk curdle (not form curds, but curdle) before you can even add the rennet.
Thank you ;D
I love to experiment ... making cheese (for me at least) is like creating life (more or less) and I love to find alternatives.
Necessity is the mother of invention <-- I guess.
I'll try to make variables between pure live culture yogurt and hybrid yogurt+citric acid
I am very green at making cheese, but I think the 30 min mozzarella with citric acid is realy easy. The only issue that one may have is to decide how long to stir the curds.
I do think you could use culture in combination with citric as in the hybrid mozz recipe that you refered to.
There is no reason why you could not add yogurt then go ahead and add the full amount acid to get the ph down then make your mozzarella. But what a waste of good yogurt. As it will give no flavor
You could also add just a little bit of acid and the yogurt and you will get a little bit of extra flavor
Or you can use just yogurt and wait a little longer and have full flavor mozzarella
I suggest you proof your yogurt first by putting a 2 tablespoons of yogurt into 1 cup of milk and leaving overnight on the counter ..... Leave it until it thickens , then use this for your mozzarella culture .
An Italian cheese maker once said that the hotter the water the better the stretch...... So make it as hot as you can take it.
Winston-Salem is my adopted home, and I do love it! My husband was born and raised here (Rural Hall).
Starter was thermo B, 1/4 tsp to the gallon.
I've acquired some cream-top milk, hoping that makes a difference today.
Quote from: Gregore on September 23, 2016, 02:10:35 PM
There is no reason why you could not add yogurt then go ahead and add the full amount acid to get the ph down then make your mozzarella. But what a waste of good yogurt. As it will give no flavor
You could also add just a little bit of acid and the yogurt and you will get a little bit of extra flavor
Or you can use just yogurt and wait a little longer and have full flavor mozzarella
I suggest you proof your yogurt first by putting a 2 tablespoons of yogurt into 1 cup of milk and leaving overnight on the counter ..... Leave it until it thickens , then use this for your mozzarella culture .
An Italian cheese maker once said that the hotter the water the better the stretch...... So make it as hot as you can take it.
yeah im doing that too but im still trying to find the exact measurement (how much yogurt for 1 gallon of milk)
Quote from: AnnieV on October 01, 2016, 02:02:28 PM
Winston-Salem is my adopted home, and I do love it! My husband was born and raised here (Rural Hall).
Starter was thermo B, 1/4 tsp to the gallon.
I've acquired some cream-top milk, hoping that makes a difference today.
themophilic culture is not available in my country :(
Achik, it is not just a question of how much yogurt to use, but of giving it time to develop the acid as the bacteria works. But temperature and other factors may also affect the timing. Thus, when you are relying on bacteria to reach the correct acidity, you have to keep testing the curds to see if they are ready - either by taking a small bit of curd and trying it out in some hot water, or by using a pH meter.
Overall sketch of the procedure using bacteria (yogurt):
Heat the milk to around 32°C (90°F) and innoculate with yogurt. Let it ripen for a time (not sure how long when using yogurt - maybe 30 min. - 1 hour?)
Cut the curds into 1-2 cm cubes (larger = more moisture); stir gently for a time (again, not sure how long - more stirring = less moisture)
Drain the curds, then keep them warm. Turn them occasionally (much like cheddaring).
Test the curds every 10-15 minutes to see if they are ready to stretch.
All of the above is off the top of my head, not looking at a recipe, so this is just the broad outlines.
My ball park guess for using yogurt that is fully coagulated ( 4.5 or lower ph ). Or like soft cooked egg whites in texture. Falls apart easy enough when stirred
1/4 cup or so less per 1 gallon
Also if you want to get good at this with yogurt ,( a highly variable starter ) you will have to start keeping records
By the way is this store bought yogurt or home Cultured ?
Quote from: awakephd on October 02, 2016, 03:50:40 PM
Achik, it is not just a question of how much yogurt to use, but of giving it time to develop the acid as the bacteria works. But temperature and other factors may also affect the timing. Thus, when you are relying on bacteria to reach the correct acidity, you have to keep testing the curds to see if they are ready - either by taking a small bit of curd and trying it out in some hot water, or by using a pH meter.
Overall sketch of the procedure using bacteria (yogurt):
Heat the milk to around 32°C (90°F) and innoculate with yogurt. Let it ripen for a time (not sure how long when using yogurt - maybe 30 min. - 1 hour?)
Cut the curds into 1-2 cm cubes (larger = more moisture); stir gently for a time (again, not sure how long - more stirring = less moisture)
Drain the curds, then keep them warm. Turn them occasionally (much like cheddaring).
Test the curds every 10-15 minutes to see if they are ready to stretch.
what i did was innoculate the milk with yogurt and let it sit there for 1 hour while keeping it at 90f ... the ph drops to 5.8 , but it tends to smell like yogurt.. is this normal? it has a nice tangy smell to it
All of the above is off the top of my head, not looking at a recipe, so this is just the broad outlines.
Quote from: Gregore on October 03, 2016, 05:17:00 AM
My ball park guess for using yogurt that is fully coagulated ( 4.5 or lower ph ). Or like soft cooked egg whites in texture. Falls apart easy enough when stirred
1/4 cup or so less per 1 gallon
Also if you want to get good at this with yogurt ,( a highly variable starter ) you will have to start keeping records
By the way is this store bought yogurt or home Cultured ?
bought cultured yogurt
Hi Achik,
I'm in Malaysia too, in KL. I'm happy to see you here. I have few cultures and rennet, you can take some from me if you want :)
Having said that, have you tried making moz with kefir? I found that it is easier to make trad moz using kefir as the culture and acidifier.
Welcome to the forum!
Quote from: AnnDee on October 03, 2016, 04:37:01 PM
Hi Achik,
I'm in Malaysia too, in KL. I'm happy to see you here. I have few cultures and rennet, you can take some from me if you want :)
Having said that, have you tried making moz with kefir? I found that it is easier to make trad moz using kefir as the culture and acidifier.
Welcome to the forum!
Hi Ann.. thx for the warm welcome.
If i may, where do you get your cultures? Kefir ? Nop, not yet...no idea where to get 1 and haven't got clue for the actual price.
I got them online mostly from artisangeek and cheesemaking. Com.
You can make most cheese with kefir as it contains meso and thermo cultures.
If your using store bought yogurt or kefir I would proof them once then freeze the extra starter for later.
Add 1/4 cup yogurt to about a quart / litter of milk and let sit on counter over night 70f to 80f when it gets thick like yogurt it is ready to use as your starter . The rest can be frozen in small cubes to add to lay for other cheeses. Works the same with kefir .
My wife makes kefir very day so I have no need to freeze , if I need some she makes extra the night before .
Quote from: Gregore on October 04, 2016, 01:52:46 PM
If your using store bought yogurt or kefir I would proof them once then freeze the extra starter for later.
Add 1/4 cup yogurt to about a quart / litter of milk and let sit on counter over night 70f to 80f when it gets thick like yogurt it is ready to use as your starter . The rest can be frozen in small cubes to add to lay for other cheeses. Works the same with kefir .
My wife makes kefir very day so I have no need to freeze , if I need some she makes extra the night before .
you can freeze starter culture? :o
Quote from: AnnDee on October 04, 2016, 04:47:39 AM
I got them online mostly from artisangeek and cheesemaking. Com.
You can make most cheese with kefir as it contains meso and thermo cultures.
aaahh i see. how long does it take for you to get the item?
I have never frozen it , but to the best of my knowledge yes you can freeze it