Hello,
I've recently switched over to using French Calf Rennet and I'm having difficulty with extremely firm curds. I've been reducing the amount used even though I'm within the perimeters set on the bottle for dosage amounts.
I just have no particular rationale for how much I scale down. Does anyone out there know if there is a particular conversion?
I was using Caldwell's recipe for Brie which was 3/8ths tsp for 3 Gallons of milk. I
It's hard to see but it's instructions say dilute up to 1/2 tsps into 2 tbsps of water per Gallon or 4 Liters
Thanks, Sam
There is a good possibility your "French" rennet is FPC-Fermentation Produced Chymosin Rennet, the same used in the American cheese industry. Although banned for use in European "GMO Free" countries it, and cheeses made from it, can be exported to the US. I will refer to the cheese professionals on here but do suspect you may be using a very strong industrial rennet.
Thanks Al,
I'm pretty new to the forum and don't know who the Professionals are or the proper etiquette. Do I wait until one of them responds?
I bought the rennet from Artisan Geek and the owner gets a lot of imports from other countries.
Thanks, Sam
Al, unless the bottle is just completely mislabeled, I don't think this can be the GMO rennet - it clearly states that it is calf rennet, and that it is single-strength.
Interestingly, I just got a new bottle of rennet from the same supplier ... but this bottle contains a very light colored, almost clear liquid. I've never seen animal rennet that wasn't a light brown color. Could this indicate that what I have isn't what it should be??
Andy,
All of my other "Animal Rennet" bottles are light brown to almost clear. This is the first time that I've seen rennet this dark. Yoav, the owner of Artisan Geek is difficult to reach these days because he's started his own creamery. I've written to him but as I said - he's now hard to reach.
I don't want to call him directly just to ask little questions.
Sam
Yoav is usually easy enough to get ahold of . And when I have phoned has been more than happy to help even with simple questions.
I would be very shocked if it was not exactly what was stated on the label and on his website
What issues are the firm curds causing you , usually most suffer from the opposite curds that shatter ?
How long is the floc time when you make your cheese ?
Have you been using the spinning bowl test for flocculation? I do find this very helpful. I like trying different rennets. Sometimes, vegetarian rennet, sometimes standard calf rennet, sometimes liquid paste rennet. If I did not test flocculation, I would have no idea when to cut.
The cow's milk I am using presently seems to set much faster than the previous cow's milk. Same thing, I would not know when to cut if I did not use the spinning bowl. I had to keep cutting back the rennet amount to get the range more like 10 to 12 minutes for flocculation.
I second Gregore, Yoav is quite happy to help. He was a little busy last month because of his move but I think all back to normal now.
Thanks for all of the answers everyone.
Gregore, I was judging by email correspondence only I guess. I was accustomed to a day or two by email. I have an initial concern that I'm imposing on a very busy guy when I call but I will go ahead. The curds are way more firm than I'm used to. I think I'm thrown off because it seems to have a dramatically different effect than the standard Rennet that I use. Thanks
Susan, I have been using the spinning bowl method. The directions say to use "up to 1/2" which is a little vague for me since I'm brand new at cheese-making. I would just like to fully understand the chemistry so that I can at least have a solid rationale for the usage.
Thanks Ann, I will try Yoav on the phone.
Sam
Sam, one word of clarification/caution - consider the 1/2 tsp per gallon as the absolute maximum that you would ever use. But normally you will use much less. One might suppose that using more rennet is better -- firmer curds, quicker flocculation, just adjust the time to suit -- but the problem is, the rennet leaves enzymes behind that also influence the taste of the cheese. Too much rennet can develop a bitter taste as the cheese ages.
Thus, the "sweet spot" is to use just enough rennet to achieve flocculation in 10-12 minutes. As a comparison, for many of the cheeses I make, I use 1/2 tsp of rennet (at least of the rennet I've been using - the calf rennet from ArtisanGeek) for nearly 4 gallons of milk -- in other words, only about 1/4 as much as the maximum on the label.
However, when I make parmesan or similar types -- little ripening time, short flocculation, cooked to high heat -- I use 3/4 tsp for ~4 gallons of milk. The short ripening time (higher pH) and short flocculation benefit from the extra rennet, and meanwhile the high heat will destroy some (most?) of the enzymes from the rennet, preventing the bitterness from developing. Or at least, that's my understanding ... and it seems to be working for me! :)
Quote from: awakephd on November 07, 2016, 02:53:33 PM
Sam, one word of clarification/caution - consider the 1/2 tsp per gallon as the absolute maximum that you would ever use. But normally you will use much less. One might suppose that using more rennet is better -- firmer curds, quicker flocculation, just adjust the time to suit -- but the problem is, the rennet leaves enzymes behind that also influence the taste of the cheese. Too much rennet can develop a bitter taste as the cheese ages.
Thus, the "sweet spot" is to use just enough rennet to achieve flocculation in 10-12 minutes. As a comparison, for many of the cheeses I make, I use 1/2 tsp of rennet (at least of the rennet I've been using - the calf rennet from ArtisanGeek) for nearly 4 gallons of milk -- in other words, only about 1/4 as much as the maximum on the label.
Thanks Andy, that's what I'm trying to determine. I have a recipe for a "scant 3/8ths" for 3 gallons of milk. I had read another thread about IMCU numbers being used to determine the amount per gallon but it's all cryptic to me at the moment. I just know the regular animal rennet I use, doesn't cause the floc time to be so rapid, but I'm still new so I may be misunderstanding.
If your floc Time is in the 10 to 15 minute range then you are using the correct amount for that milk.
you might just be used to a rennet that did not give firm enough curds and are now thinking the good curds are somehow wrong.
Hope that makes sense.
Quote from: Gregore on November 08, 2016, 07:31:58 AM
If your floc Time is in the 10 to 15 minute range then you are using the correct amount for that milk.
Thanks Gregore...so if It takes 13 minutes and I have a floc multiplier of 6 that would leave me at 78 minutes or 1 hour and 18 minutes correct? I'm confused when this recipe says it should only take 35 minutes between rennet and cutting.
Sam
Hi Sam, I cannot be sure the company I work for uses the same rennet as you, but it is an identical dark brown/amber color.
As for a ratio we use, its 50ml to 500L of milk, or 1:10 000 As you see, a much lower ratio than your bottle recommends.
I'll note down our label details tomorrow and get back to you so we can compare.
Thanks Annelies,
I look forward to hearing about it
Sam
A 12 minute floc is good ,but that 6 times multiplier seems a little high to me , I have yet to see a recipe for a cheese that has that high of a multiplier , though I do not make that many types of cheeses .
But I think a Brie / cam is usually no higher than 4 to 4.5
Let's see what other think about that 6
Gregore,
It's from Mastering Artisan Cheese's brie recipe. I will be interested in hearing as well.
Sam
I use Bioren rennet (https://www.hundsbichler.com/php/download-47_7a60dab81b15321c531e876f05a8d25f_21_en.html (https://www.hundsbichler.com/php/download-47_7a60dab81b15321c531e876f05a8d25f_21_en.html)). The strength should be around 15000.
I have to use around 10 ml per 24 liters of milk to get a floc. time of 12 minutes.
I dillute in water etc. but ai still have to use relatively high amounts. The bottle says 18-24 ml per 100 liters of milk.
The rennet is fresh and the milk is not homogenized.
Am I doing something wrong here? I have always used 6-10 ml for a 24 liter batch...
Danbo, that does sound like a lot of rennet, at least compared to what I am used to using - 2.5 - 3.75 ml for around 16 liters of milk (which would work out to about the ratio called for on the bottle).
Key question: are the cheeses coming out bitter, especially after extended aging?
At least some of the mature cheeses were bitter due to rennet.
Maybe I'm doing the spinning bowl test wrong. I use a very light plastic bowl that does not sink in the milk (just float on the surface). If that is the problem then I don't detct the first sign of floc. because the bowl does not have sufficient friction against the milk.
Maybe the floc. actually happens a lot sooner than I think...?
If you think that your plastic bowl is too heavy to give an accurate floc test try using a plastic bottle cap.
When it stops spinning or skittering across surface it will also leave a light impression in the milk/ curd when lifted
I already use a very light plastic bowl now. I just thought that it might have been too light. According to your post that does not seem to be a problem...
Maybe it is the milk quality. I have tried different types and I'm very focused on buying the best possible quality.
Or the temperature - but my thermometer is certified precise down to 0.2 C.
I use a small amount of Chlorine (bleach) for desinfecting all my equipment and the kitchen. I am aware that bleach can affect the rennet function but I only use very small amounts.
I do not flush all the equipment after having used the weak bleach solution (just left to air dry) so there might be very small traces of bleach left in the pot etc. I assume that just using tap water (that hasn't been boiled first) in the cheese process or for flushing equipment is not the best idea...
Chlorine is not added to the tapwater where I live.
Boiling all the equipment is not an option as I use square pans and can't heat it up to the point of boiling. I have used StarSan in the past but I can't remember if I experienced the same problem back then.
Any suggestions are welcome...
Is the milk you are using pasteurized and/or homogenized? If so, it may be that the floc test just isn't very reliable for you. At least, that has been my experience - with very little access to anything other than store-bought, pasteurized & homogenized milk, I got so frustrated trying to decide exactly when the milk had flocced, because it never seemed to be a very clear and distinct event, and no matter which part of that very unclear event I used, I seemed to get ridiculous answers that didn't seem to translate into actual results as far as the time needed for a clean break. I kept thinking I must be doing it all wrong ... but every description of the process told me I was doing it right ... except it just didn't work.
Then I had the opportunity to use some raw milk. Actually, not even truly raw - I low-temp pasteurized it, and I mixed it half and half with some store bought P&H milk, since I only had a couple of gallons of the raw milk, and I normally make 4-gallon batches of cheese. But even with all of this, the difference was absolutely startling. This time, I had a very clear and distinct flocc, and the time made sense.
Others here seem to have more success with using the flocc method even with P&H milk, so YMMV. Maybe their milk is less pasteurized, or some other difference ... but I came to the conclusion that, with the P&H milk available here, it is not worth trying to use the flocc test. Now I just go by time and clean break test ... and it seems to work out reasonably well for me. Of course, if I can ever arrange a steady supply of raw milk, I will start using the flocc method again!
I think that you're right. I really want to use some low temperature treated milk but it's not really an option.
I use nonhomogenized pasteurized organic milk. I usually use wholemilk that has not been standardized regarding fat. It is usually around 4.1% (dependig on the season).
I would love to use organic Demeter low temperature treated milk from grass/hay fed cows that has not been fat standardized... I am actually trying to find a way to get this milk but it is not easy...
Danbo
I have a few questions to clarify
Is this a new rennet you are using or one that you have always used ?
Your floc time is correct And you are thinking that you are using too much rennet for the amount of milk to get this floc time , is this correct? Or just that you are using more than the bottle states , and that is your worry ?
You mention using 6 and10 ml ? As one is almost double the other what is your floc time at 6 ml and what is it at 10 ml ?
If it was me and I had issues with my rennet I would try a new rennet and see if that changes anything .
I have used different types of rennet in the past including calf and goat rennet paste. I have always had to use a bit more than the recipes normally suggests to obtain a resanable floc time.
I get a floc around 14 minutes if using 10 ml for 24 liters of milk. The range according to the bottle is around 4.5-6 ml. If I use only 6 ml I get a floc time close to 20 mins.
I'm worried that the cheese will have a bitter taste because I use more rennet than the bottle suggests.
I have some rennet tablets that I will try the next time. I will just follow the directions and see what my floc time will be in that case.
Thanks for the advice. :-)
Tried a new 24 liter batch with rennet tablets (1,25 tablet as stated on the pack)...
Floc. time 33 minutes!!! I am so tired of this. Even tried a new milk brand.
All equipment was sanitized in chlorine and flushed with boiling water.
Just can't figure out what's wrong.
The recipe says 40 minutes for the curd to develop (gouda). If I use a floc. factor of 3 then it would be 1 hour and 39 minutes - not exactly optimal...
I think in this case I would try cutting after 1 hr 10 mins as a compromise.
What to do? :(
To me that is a lot of rennet. I use 1 tablet of 36 liters batch and floc time around 9 minutes. I use raw milk.
Do you put cacl? Too much cacl for some reason resulting longer floc time too.
Raw untreated milk seems so much better...
Last time I didn't use CaCl. This time I did.
I had a good cut after 1 hr 10 min. Actually the curd came out reasonably OK I think...
Looks good Danbo! It all works out in the end.
Thanks AnnDee. :)
The last picture was after the first 15 minutes of light pressing under the whey.
Now it is in the press...
I'm excited to see how the final cheese will be. The make didn't quite go as planned but I think that it will become cheese... ;)
So,
I spoke to Yoav (My fear of imposing was totally unfounded) and he said that "French Calf Rennet" is slightly weaker than most Single Strength Animal Rennet. The reason being is the European/French philosophy of cheesemaking is to draw flavors out of the milk much slower. He gave the example of bread making where a person will make a fast rising, dense bread by excessive amounts of yeast and sugar, but to get real flavor a person uses much smaller amounts of yeast and ingredients and slowly develops whatever is in the grains.
So, he gave me a list of factors that could have caused such a fast floc time and firm curds. He concluded that it was a fluke and something wrong with the milk itself. The other interesting thing that he said was that the perfect target temp for Flora Danica is 86 Degrees F.
Sam
Interesting (and sorry that i hijacked you thread)... :)
No problem.
It's all about the cheese 8)
Danbo .
Your 14 minute floc is perfect for most cheeses go back to the 10 ml.
another option is to wait a little longer before adding rennet to let the culture drop the ph a little lower , this helps the rennet Work better thus you might be able to use less .
If you have a ph meter wait until the ph drops .2 instead of .1 if you are using a time based recipe add 50 percent more wait time. You might have milk with a great ph buffering abilities , thus the ph is too high for the rennet to work well when waiting the normal timing .
If it still bothers you try some new milk brands
Gregore, thank you for your advise - I think that you might be on to something... I have a very good and precise PH-meter (resulution down to 0.001). Last time I noticed no change in PH from fresh milk and just before adding rennet. PH was 6.63.
Is it good practice to wait until a 0.1-0.2 PH drop before adding rennet regardless of the time it takes?
It sounds logical that the milk PH has to be optimal for the rennet to work.
Why does some milk buffer better than other regarding PH?
Sorry for all the questions. I have made cheese from hundreds of liters of milk - now I just want to be better and have more understandig of the processes involved...
:-) Danbo
Usually you wait for a .1 change but I suspect your milk is good milk and thus does not readily want to change ph at first. If this true then my understanding is that it has extra buffers in the form of casein , calcium phosphate and minerals each of these has the ability to absorb acid (positive hydrogen ions) and thus you ph takes some time to start changing. Next time you make cheese try recording the ph every 15 minutes or so and make a graph by putting time along the bottom and ph 6.8 at the top left then start putting the points on that you record every 15 minutes until you start your cutting of the curd .
I am sure you will see that the acid drops very very slowly at first probably more slowly than normal at least for milk in this country . And then becomes a some what steady slope downwards
I use raw milk so I have some of the same issues , the first time I made cheese it took 2 hrs for the ph to drop .2
so I make a mother starter each time I make cheese . I take my dvi cultures and add them to 1 or more jars of milk ( 1 jar each for thermo and meso if both are being used in the cheese ) . I use 1.5 percent of the total amount of milk that they will be added to . I let them sit in the oven with the light on over night , thermo is put closer to the light . This helps jump start the culture and seems to take care of all the extra buffering .
I should add that I believe the ph buffer it is way more complex than my description here
Wow!!!
It would really make a big difference in my makes if it's just a matter of letting the culture have some more time to work before adding the rennet.
:) :) :)
And if it is caused by the milk being a good quality... Great! I use the best organic milk that I can get my hands on. Pasteurized but not homogenized or fat standardized from cows that are treated well...
I just got a new PH meter. I had an Extech PH100 but it stopped working. Now I have a Hach Sension1. The new meter is very precise and reliable but the probe is not flat as on the Extech...
It would be great to still be able to meassure PH throughout the entire process from milk to press...
How do I use the new PH meter for this - is it even possible? I cant just punch it in the curds or cheese...
I really appreciate your help!
:-) Danbo
first here is a link I found be typing effects of ph on rennet into google.
https://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/hal-00895427/document
Just remember that even though rennet works best at ph below 6 , most cheeses are hooped before that .
If you want to measure through the whole process then up until you put the cheese in the mold you can still measure curd , after that it will leave a mark . So just get a small mold a few inches across and make a mini cheese that will be poked with the meter .
( I too have a non flat meter ..... mine is pointed and about 8 mm long.)
I sometimes i make the sacrifice cheese and sometimes I just accept a mark on the main cheese.
It usually closes up well enough even up to poking just before brining , at least with the pointed one .
Do you have a better picture of the probe ?
Hi Gregore,
Thanks for the link. A bit too complicated for me but I stumbled over a graph that shows the correlation between PH and coagulation time. It seems that it is possible to reduce my floc.time quite a bit by letting the PH drop a little before adding the rennet. I can't wait to try it next time I make cheese.
I have taken two better pictures of the probe head. I would be a little worried to poke it into the cheese. The probe is quite expensive and I would be afraid to break it.
Does it make sense to just meassure the whey PH up until the curd is put in the mould (difference between curd and whey PH)?
It would be nice to be able to meassure when to brine but I'm not sure that it is possible with my new PH meter...
:) Danbo
Whey pH will lag behind the curd pH by around .2, if I remember correctly. But better check that with others here -- my memory may be faulty!
I am dying to get the Hanna halo bluetooth PH meter but they don't ship to Asia...
Anyone knows any online shop that ship worldwide?
Awakephd: Thanks.
I think you will be forced to take a piece of curd and mash it then mix with distilled water , this should give you a correct reading . Though I have never tried .
That sounds like a plan. :) Does the PH stay the same even if it is dilluted in destilled water?
My knowledge about PH meassurement is minimal...
I just found the original post and it seems my memory of it is a little off and it is slightly more complicated than just mixing the water and cheese curd together , seems you need an emulsifier , and I suspect it too will need to be ph7 (nuetral)
I am including the link because he mentions another option
https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php?topic=2909.0 (https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php?topic=2909.0)
Thanks for the link. I'm afraid to break the small glass element in my meter if i force it into the cheese.
I don't have any clue which emulsifier to use so I'm thinking about making some sort of mini press from a small garlic press or something. Then hopefully I can squeeze enough moist from the curd to get a meassurement.
If anyone have any alternative ideas then please let me know.
:-) Danbo
Ps.: The Hanna HALO Glass Body Refillable pH Electrode with Bluetooth® - HI11312 seems like a sweet option... :-)
I think Linuxboy in the link mentioned that you can measure the fresh whey coming off the cheese ,and that it should be fairly close in ph to the cheese ph.
the glass bulbs are usually pretty strong , I had a cheep 40 dollar one with a shield like yours before and I was easily able to push it into curds , now a cheese after it has aged is another thing.
I think that I will give it a go and make a small sacrifice cheese and do the meassurements by inserting the glass probe directly into the mass.
I wonder if it is nessasary to also press this sacrifice cheese or whether it is OK to just leave the curd in a small container with drain holes? Just wondering if there will be a PH difference between pressing/turning or not.
:-) Danbo
With very heavy weight I think that there is increased speed of ph
I think that you have such an accurate ph meter that you could make a record of the next cheese measuring ph or curd and whey through the process and see how much they differ along the make then use that as a guide for the future . This way you are only making a mark on cheese just 1 time .
I should add that any marks you make up until about ph 5.7 pr so mostly go away even before salting even with out much pressing weight . And i i would think that with a fair amount of weight the mark would go away even even after that ph.
One other thing if you still have a mark after brining you can take a little brush like a tooth brush and rub the area with some brine until you get a slurry of cheese and this will make the mark fill in .
I have done this with cheeses when pulling a core to test them for age .
Thanks - I will try that.
I'm glad that you took the time to explain. Now I just looking forward to testing it in real life...
:-) Danbo
I made a small PH test cheese and it seemen to work fine. Thank you very much for the tip. :-)