Hi.
I'm a newbie here and in cheese making. Sorry for my English, it's not my native language.
I got interested in making cheese couple of months ago considering it as a way to start my own business in my country. I've read some books, sites etc. The idea is to read, to understand the crucial moments of the whole process, to feel the process by myself and then to have some practice or trainings in real cheese-making outlet somewhere in Switzerland and/or Holland.
So I decided to start with Gruyere type cheese and then I'll proceed with Gouda. I'm working with Danisco TM products.
I've been following the receipt not from this site but globally this and that one are plus-minus similar.
Actually I cooked six heads of Gruyere cheese. And couple of days ago I've decided to open two of them (each of one month and one week aged and one kilogram weight) to see the texture of the cheese body. Some photos attached below.
The product was not bad – taste is nice and milky, but far from being Gruyere by taste and texture.
And hence I got a couple of questions to the Gurus asking for help.
The cheese is quite sharp salty. I've been brining it for 12 hours in saturated (20%) brine. I've been using sea salt. Actually in my country we are not eating sea salt but rock salt, that is more "light" not so "sharp". Is that the reason of being too salty for Gruyere? What salt is generally used? Or it does not matter?
Also I've been washing the rind each day :( for month and a week with solution of salt (2.5%) without any white vinegar and CaCl. In a week a nice crust appeared. Does it add also to salty taste? As far as I understood from this site – it's too long and too often to wash. Is that true? White vinegar and CaCl is crucial? (My milk is non pasteurized fresh from the farm)
I've been pressing the cheese with hand-made-crazy-press (picture attached). Now I realize that this "press" is a junk, 'cause the pressure if it is not constant. In my "press" there is no spring or lever to keep the weight constant. And therefore the body of my cheeses is "flaky", the more to the center, the more flaky it is. Is that of bad way of pressing? Or because I've overdried the curds after warming to 49C/120F and cooking it for more 40 minutes, although the curds was quite elastic and sticky? (I was not measuring pH of milk at all, the milk was very fresh – an hour after being milked). And the original Gruyere's (6 month) body is more elastic, mine- more harder with those flakes. Elasticity and homogeneity will appear with aging or there is no chance for that?
And one final question. I've been using liquid vegetarian rennet. It was doing quite well. But I've decided to try natural dry calf rennet Carlina 1650 from Danisco (liquid was not available at the moment). It was diluted in sterile water according to the specification. And... total disaster. After 45 minutes trying to calculate flocculation time nothing happened...the plastic bowl was "swimming" on the surface of milk without any difference. I've decided not to pour out the milk and added liquid vegetarian rennet , just to see what will be... and magic...in three!!!!!! minutes - clean break! Does anyone know what was that? What I did wrong with that dry calf rennet?
Thank you. And excuse me for many letters.
Welcome to the forum. Very nice cheeses and AC4U.
Welcome on board Ahriman and a cheese from me for some tasty looking results.
Don't despair is they didn't work out quite as you wished, they look like good cheese anyway.
As for what you might have done differently, it would be easier to diagnose if you gave us more details of your process. There are a couple of things which I think that I can comment on though.
- If it tastes too salty, it was probably in the brine too long.I checked in Caldwell's book "Mastering Artisan Cheesemaking" and for a Gruyere type cheese she recommends 6-8 hours per kilogram. Washing the cheese would add little salt and the type of salt is probably not important. (Many, but not all, cheesemakers recommend that you use salt without added iodine.)
- It sounds like the dried rennet may not be good, especially if nothing happened after 45 minutes. Three minutes for a clean break is very surprising, though, unless you added a lot of the vegetarian rennet.
- Your press doesn't look too bad, but you are right to think that the pressure would not be constant. As the cheese settled, the pressure would reduce and you would need to keep on turning the screw. There doesn't seem to be any way of measuring the pressure. I personally favour the lever type press Judging from the photographs of your current press, you obviously have the skills to make a good press. You should have no problems making a lever press.
Good luck!
Thank you very much, fellows.
Actually my new type of press with constant pressure works ok. I'm judging by quantity of whey drained. Yesterday I've done the pressing on the basis of thumb method (as far as i remember the correct name). It works!! Hope it will solve the matter of "flakes". Plus now i try to dry my curds less in the phase of high temperature , giving more time for self-pressing in low level of the whey. Yesterday i received great result. Hope it will also add to solving flakes problem.
With dry rennet also problem solved! It looks to me that my dry rennet is realy a little bit old :(. I've added some 30% more and diluted in more water (12 ml instead of 8 ml reccomended) and ... magic!!! perfect clean break and timing.
Now actually there is one thing I wonder. As far as I remember the hard cheeses ripen from the rind to the center, and in my situation the texture of the body close to the rind is nice. So, The texture of cheese body I see after 1 month of aging will be the same after more time of aging (f.i. 3-4 month) or it will get more homogeneous as bacteria will do their job during that time?? Or it's not a job of bacteria but just my job to cook and press it well?
Thank you!
Can you post your recipe here , with times so we can look it over and help you adjust it?
I suspect that the acid level is dropping too low before you are brining and this is why the texture is more crumbly than you want.
I also think that if you are going to invest lots of money into this as a business you will need to spend a few years making the same cheeses over and over until they are the same every time . Worst case for you would be to think you have things under control then to loose a huge batch of cheese from a mistake that you failed to see coming .
or as you suggested , try to find some where to train .
This would speed up your understanding 10 fold.
I would also suggest to,you that you try to make a cheese that is more in keeping with your terroir , assuming no one is already doing this it gives you a high dollar item that can be sold to specialty restaurants .
Best of luck to you .
Not much to add to what others have said, but responding to one of your questions - one month of ripening is not nearly long enough for this cheese to develop its true character. I wouldn't even think about sampling it until at least 3-4 months, and 6-12 months would be better.
How does an aspiring cheese maker wait 12 months?? By making some fast-ripening cheeses along with the slow ripening ones. Make a Gruyere and put it in the "cave" and forget about it. Then make a Butterkäse or Caerphilly or Lancashire, cheeses which will be ready in 3-6 weeks. Alternate back and forth. You will stay afloat with cheese (the fast-ripening cheeses), and someday, a year or so from now, you will suddenly realize that the Gruyere is ready to sample. :)
Quote from: awakephd on February 02, 2017, 04:00:40 PM
How does an aspiring cheese maker wait 12 months?? By making some fast-ripening cheeses along with the slow ripening ones. Make a Gruyere and put it in the "cave" and forget about it. Then make a Butterkäse or Caerphilly or Lancashire, cheeses which will be ready in 3-6 weeks. Alternate back and forth. You will stay afloat with cheese (the fast-ripening cheeses), and someday, a year or so from now, you will suddenly realize that the Gruyere is ready to sample. :)
So true. Now that I have my larger cave I have been on a binge making cheeses for long aging. I made a variety of ten cheddars just in the last three weeks. And to enjoy while I am waiting, I made two each of Gouda, Butterkase and Baby Swiss in that same time span. That was $160 in milk! This week will be a Parmesan and a Emmental.
Quote from: Duntov on February 02, 2017, 07:00:03 PM
Quote from: awakephd on February 02, 2017, 04:00:40 PM
How does an aspiring cheese maker wait 12 months?? By making some fast-ripening cheeses along with the slow ripening ones. Make a Gruyere and put it in the "cave" and forget about it. Then make a Butterkäse or Caerphilly or Lancashire, cheeses which will be ready in 3-6 weeks. Alternate back and forth. You will stay afloat with cheese (the fast-ripening cheeses), and someday, a year or so from now, you will suddenly realize that the Gruyere is ready to sample. :)
So true. Now that I have my larger cave I have been on a binge making cheeses for long aging. I made a variety of ten cheddars just in the last three weeks. And to enjoy while I am waiting, I made two each of Gouda, Butterkase and Baby Swiss in that same time span. That was $160 in milk! This week will be a Parmesan and a Emmental.
Exactly!!
Adopting that routine is fairly easy to do and surprisingly rewarding over time. Andy, you've captured something I have been pursuing since I started making cheese. It should be added to the wiki.
-Boofer-
Welcome fellow cheesehead
Welcome! AC4U for your outstanding cheeses.
Thank you fellows for the answers and attention paid to my post.
Actually I realize all the things you've mentioned above. I've decided to start with gryuere as it looked to me as a quite complicated in process cheese that will give me the chance to feel myself all the stages of cheesemaking. I realize that this type of cheese is the one that needs patience in waiting long for the result. That is why I've been planing to proceed with Gouda, that will give me quicker results And I will be busy not to disturb my Gryuere's life in cave.
If to talk about the receipt of Gryuere.
I'm making it of 10 liters/2.64 gallon fresh non pasteurized milk. pH is almost constant every time - 6.9-7.0
warming it to 32 C/90 F
no CaCl
add thermo bacteria (Choozit TA61 LYO) 1/4 tsp and Choozit LH100 LYO (or Choozit Alp D LYO) 1/16 tsp and Propionibacterium shermanni 1/16 tsp - strewing on the milk surface
waiting for 5 minutes and then lightly stir the bacteria thru the milk
wait for 30-45 minutes, keeping the t 32 C/90F. pH level goes to 6,7
add a rennet (at the begining i've been using vegetable, now - dry calf rennet Carlina) both work quite ok. Vegetable - 3,5 mL; dry - a solution of 0.35 gr per 20 ml of clean water. everything according to the manufacturer specification.
Nicely stir thru the milk. Floculation time received (by method of plastic bowl swiming) and then multiply this by 2.5 and wait that more.
Clean break checked. Generally in total it takes - 35-40 min for vegetarian, 47-50 min for dry rennet
Cut it by self-made lyre (gives pices in cubes 15 mm*15 mm (0.6 inch*0.6 inch)
Wait for some 5 minutes and then start to stir with another lyre that is cutting my curds to the size of corn (0.5 mm/0.19 inch) during 40 minutes. pH goes to 6.4
Slowly heat the milk to 49C/120F during some 20-23 minutes. Gently stiring all the time.
When the temperature is received - stop heating and keep on stiring for some 10 minutes more. ph 6.3
Gather my curds under the whey in gauze. And keep it under the whey for some more 10 minutes for selfpressing.
Then it goes to pressing - 4,5 kg/9 lb during 20 minutes. Redress and flip. 7 kg/15 lb during 30 minutes. Redress and flip. 12 kg/26 lb during 6 hours. Flip. 24 kg/52 lb during 12 hours.
Salting- i was doing 25% solution (500 ml water/125 g sea or rock salt, non iodine (4C/39 F)- in fridge for 12 hours. Now - 7 hours, as it looks to me too salty when opened.
Air drying for some 2 days, flipping each 6 hours.
And to the cave (92 % humidity, 12.5 C/55 F). It's not actually a cave - its a fridge for drinks with self-installed controller that gives 10C/50F-16C/60F with ultrasonic humidifier inside.
During first two weeks - brushing each day (2.5% solution), then - each 3 days, and in a month - once a week.
From 10 liters (2.64 gallons) of fresh milk I receive approximately 1.1-1.2 kg/2 lb of fresh cheese before salting
Sorry for abusing your kindness...but
Is everything done correct? pH levels are ok?
2 Raw Prawn.
Thank you for recommendation. Actually I've bought Caldwell's book.
Hope my English and cheese making skills (at least theoretical) will improve as far as I finish to read it. :-)
Ahriman, what is the pH level of the cheese at the end of pressing (before you begin salting)? This is a critical number for the texture and taste of the cheese - should be around 5.3.
I'd say you need to cut back on the amount of TA61 you are using, and reduce the ripening time - you only need a .05 - .1 drop in pH before adding rennet. At the same time, you might slow down your heating time - you are heating more than 1°F per minute, where most recipes call for 2 - 4 minutes per 1° - I say "most recipes" generically; I'll have to check to see what the Gruyere recipes call for. As I understand it, cooking too fast can trap some whey inside the curds (the outside toughens but the inside stays soft) - which in turn may push your final pH down, leading to a more crumbly cheese.
Yesterday I ve been cooking again. I decided to follow the receipt of Gryuere in Caldwell's book as for the second Heating - to obtain 49C/120F during one hour. And as you recomend i've added rennet when pH dropped by 0.1 pH (actually in 15 minutes after cultures added to the milk). At the end of heating the pH of the whey was 6.38. But the texture of the curds was horrible - it was not sticky at all!!! just a lot of beads swimmiing separately like dry buckwheat.
As I was doing before (heating to 49C/120F during 20-25 minutes it was nice - quite sticky and easy to crumble using palms. To estimate the time to drain the whey and to start collect my curds I'm using the following procedure: I'm pressing with my palms the curds 3-4 times, then i'm shaking that "pancake" of curds several times. if it does not break - it's high time to collect curds.
It looks to me, that the curds actually were overdrained. And it is too long to keep them heating to 49C/120F for one hour. I can not question authority of Mr.Caldwell. What I was doing wrong?
I can not measure the pH of pressed cheese. I got pH-meter for liquids without probe to insert into the cheese. What you would recommend to use to measure ph level of already-pressed cheese? Litmus?
thank you
Try to stir more carefully when you first start to stir , also maybe let them heal longer . Are you using floc to test how long to wait before cutting? Not enough curd set could also cause this issue .
When I use p&h milk I have to be very careful at first not to shatter the curds wi th each stir . I always stir with my hand with p&h milk
With raw milk I can be a little more like a bull in a china shop.
What kind of ph meter do you have ?
Actually I was stirring not stronger then usually - just to let my curds swim not to sit and stick together. Wrong?
Yes, I'm using floc test. I was trying to get my clean break as written in Caldwell''s book -25- 35 minutes. Actually it was 42 min till clean break and cutting - 12 min to floculation and then + 2,5*12=30 min. Usually I am having that result of about 40-42 minutes. Will try next time to achieve 30 min.
PH meter very simple, the very same as below.
I'm not familiar with that model of pH meter. Is there a way to calibrate it?
I have never made that cheese but it is a cousin to the tomme in some ways.
Tomme would be 45 minutes to an hour at a 100 degrees , tomme is a slightly moister cheese .
So it is not hugely off , what would be more important would be if you where at that temp to long ., if you make it again and get to that point with out variations from the make then try bring it down to 45 minutes and see what changes you get .
When you squeezed the curd together did it stick together at all? They should cling to each in a blob , but break apart into grains again if you pick at the clump .
Yes, this ph Meter can be and was calibrated by buffer solutions with different ph.
Actually curds were not sticky at all and what surprises me is that curds got pressed very well. The time will show what it be. Any way. ..for sure if wI'll be cheeeese :-)
What makes me curious is the issue of cheese ph right After pressing. I understand that it should be acidic of about 5.3. How it is possible to measure and control? Or ph of the whey before draining of 6.3 is enough to estimate the ph of curds? This ph level is to evaluate the activity of bacteria only?
How you do it practically? Or no measures just years of practice?
Thank you
You can press the meter into the top of the cheese and accept that you will have a mark , before pressing marks will go away , you can also press a little more after testing just enough to lessen mark then salt.
You can have a spare small cheese that you poke full of holes to get readings. It will be a little off as pressing speeds up ph drop a little from my understanding .
You can also cut away the protective plastic that surrounds the bulb and contact , just be more carful with it after that . You will still get a mark but it will be 1/4 the size.
Lastly you can take a sample of th cheese emulsify it and test, but it is complicated , Linuxboy has instructions of a sort somewhere on this forum .
THank you, Gregore, for well-timed answer. yesterday I cooked again and everything went perfect.
Actually I see that i've been stirring too strong before. Yesterday my curds was very good!!!
So, ph of the whey was declining very slowly (I've been warming milk to 49C/120F during 50 minutes) and arrived to 6.5. After that i've been stirring some 15 minutes to arrive to 6.3 and then let the curds to sit for some 10 minutes more - ph 6.1. Before the first flip and redress - ph 5.8 (i'm sure the figure is not correct because of the type of phMeter. I just pressed the meter into the top of the cheese.
Thank you