I decided to try an experiment, making a cheese in the alpine style (thermo, relatively high scald) up through the point of draining, and then finishing it off in the cheddar style, stacking and turning until it reaches the target pH, milling, salting, and then pressing. I had asked here (https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,16097.msg123370.html#msg123370) whether anyone had ever tried this. The closest (actually, the only) response was from AnnDee, who, if I understood correctly, had taken an alpine out of the press, milled/salted it, and re-pressed, but hadn't tasted it yet. So, for the greater good, I decided to give it a try.
What will the ultimate result be? I have no idea. I was thinking it might wind up not very different from a Montasio or Asiago ... but the "trimmings" (from where it pressed up around the follower a bit) tasted very much like a typical cheddar. So maybe it will wind up not very different from a cheddar. Check back in three to six months, and I will give a taste test!
Recipe as I intended it to be:
4 gallons whole milk
1/8 tsp MA011
3/16 tsp TA061
1/8 tsp LH100
1/4+ tsp CaCl crystals dissolved in boiled, chlorine free water (equivalent to about 3/4-1 tsp of liquid); cooled before adding to milk
1/2+ tsp liquid single strength calf rennet (maybe about 5/8 tsp total), diluted in boiled, then cooled, chlorine free water
3 Tbs kosher salt
- Warm milk gradually to target temperature of 95°F (35°C), adding the CaCl solution and stirring in while the milk is warming.
- Add the cultures when the milk reaches about 80-85°F (27-29°C), waiting about 5 minutes to stir them in.
- Once temperature reaches 95°F (35°C), let ripen for 20 minutes.
- Add rennet, stir in for 1 minute or less, let set for 30 minutes.
- Cut into 3/8" cubes, let rest for 5 minutes.
- Begin stirring, gently at first, and begin heating. Target is to reach 114°F (45-46°C) over about 45 minutes.
- Hold temperature at 114°F (45-46°C) and continue stirring for another 15 minutes.
- Let rest for 5 minutes.
- Drain and begin to cheddar, flipping and stacking every 10-15 minutes until pH reaches ~5.3.
- Mill, add salt, put in cheesecloth-lined mold and put in press.
- Begin pressing at around 20-25 lbs. for 30 minutes or so (7" diameter mold). Every hour or so, flip and press again, doubling the weight until reaching around 200 lbs.; press overnight. Adjust weight and time as needed for good knit.
Recipe as I actually made it, including comments/observations:
- Next time, if there is a next time, I think I would leave out the mesophilic (MA011) - I know that it gets killed off when the scalding temperature goes high enough, but given how much the trimmings tasted like a typical cheddar, I wonder how much the meso dominated the make. My intention was to give a little boost to the thermo, not to overwhelm it. Of course, the taste in 3-6-12 months may be very different ...
- I wound up letting it coagulate for 40 minutes instead of 30 - the set was just too fragile at that point. Usually I get a bit better results from the P&H milk that I typically use, but this batch was not quite as fresh, so maybe that had something to do with it. In any case, with the extra set time, the curds I got weren't too bad (for P&H milk, that is).
- I was intending to take 45 minutes to get to the target scalding temperature, 114°F (45-46°C), but it wound up taking 55 minutes instead.
- The pH dropped faster than I would have liked - I only cheddared for about an hour, and reached around 5.25-5.3 pH (slight range of readings depending on where I tested). I often seem to have this problem with cheddars, and wondered if it would happen with this make. This is another reason to try leaving the meso (MA011) out if I try this again.
- The milling, salting, and pressing all acted very much like a typical cheddar - including the fact that it was still quite un-knit when I went from 80 lbs to 200 lbs. for the overnight pressing. I fully expected to have to press additional time at 300 lbs., but the knit seemed perfectly smooth this morning, so I went ahead and put it in the cave to dry.
- My plan is to let it age in the cave for around 3 weeks, and then vac-bag it to age for at least 3 months. I'll sample it then, and then again at 6 months, and perhaps keep some out to 9-12 months to see where it seems to reach its peak.
All in all, a fun little experiment ... but as I said above, it will be a minimum of 3 months before I can give any idea of what sort of frankencheese I have created!
You experienced cheese heads always abbreviate your cultures using, from what I can tell, non-standardized titles from whichever website you use but since there are like 50 online vendors I never know what you are talking about. Then I have to be the idiot that asks, "Hey whats that one, oh and that one, oh and if you aren't tired of answering questions, whats that one?" :'( I am not grumpy about it at all I swear >:D
I really like your idea. I have though about doing something similar, but having to guess all the PH levels since I do not have a PH meter. I look forward to the taste test!
Sounds like a pretty awesome Cheesemake Andy. I can't say I've tried anything of this sort yet but I do look forward to seeing how yours turns out. The wheel looks pretty awesome so AC4U too :)
Ever have a chance to get up to Whole Foods for the Ran-Lew Milk?
Mike
Sorry, Jobe! These are all product designations used by the Danisco Choozit line of cultures:
MA011 - basic mesophilic culture, containing Lactococus lactis and Lactococcus lactis cremoris (usually abbreviated LL and LC or LLC, respectively)
TA061 - basic thermophilic culture, containing Streptococcus thermophilus (usually abbreviated ST)
LH100 - thermophilic adjunct culture - meaning that it doesn't contribute significantly to the acidification, but rather adds flavor dimensions - this one contains Lactobacillus delbrueckii lactis and Lactobacillus helveticus (usually abbreviated LBL and LH, respectively)
The bacteria in MA011 (LL and LC) are the foundation for just about any mesophilic cheese, though there are all sorts of variations with various adjuncts for flavor, aroma, speed of acidification, etc.
The bacteria in TA061 (ST) is the foundation for just about any thermophilic cheese; this particular variety is a faster acidifier, while TA051 is a slower version of ST.
Note that the 011, 061, 051 should probably be written as 01X, 06X, 05X - these all come in slightly different strains, which commercial dairies rotate among to keep from developing phages that are partial to a particular strain. Thus, you can get MA011, MA012, MA013 ... etc. These are all essentially the same thing, just variant strains.
Hope that helps!
Quote from: nccheesemike on February 04, 2017, 08:30:34 PMEver have a chance to get up to Whole Foods for the Ran-Lew Milk?
I went by a Whole Foods location just the other day, but didn't find this brand. Instead they had a brand of cream-line milk that was going to run $4.99 per half-gallon - which puts me in the same price range as getting raw milk from a cooperative that trucks it in from out of state. Which particular Whole Foods location do you use? I'd like to give it a try, but decided that $10/gallon was just too much, especially since I was thinking about this experiment.
Beautiful looking cheese Andy!
I can't wait for taste report, it probably will taste like cheddar with sweet tones. I took a sample from my milled alpine, it was creamy. I am aging it some more, hopefully it improves with time.
Quote from: awakephd on February 04, 2017, 09:39:38 PM
Quote from: nccheesemike on February 04, 2017, 08:30:34 PMEver have a chance to get up to Whole Foods for the Ran-Lew Milk?
I went by a Whole Foods location just the other day, but didn't find this brand. Instead they had a brand of cream-line milk that was going to run $4.99 per half-gallon - which puts me in the same price range as getting raw milk from a cooperative that trucks it in from out of state. Which particular Whole Foods location do you use? I'd like to give it a try, but decided that $10/gallon was just too much, especially since I was thinking about this experiment.
Yes it seems the only WF that carries it is the one I go to: the address is 102B New Waverly Place Cary NC 27518. It can be hit or miss sometimes too. I believe the brand you found that was $4.99 is Atlanta Fresh. Their yogurt is amazing. I may use their milk as a backup sometime but really need to go to a farm near me for raw milk.
Quote from: AnnDee on February 05, 2017, 03:13:52 AM
Beautiful looking cheese Andy!
I can't wait for taste report, it probably will taste like cheddar with sweet tones. I took a sample from my milled alpine, it was creamy. I am aging it some more, hopefully it improves with time.
Ann, did you add extra cream to yours? Mine was just whole milk, same as I usually use for a Montasio or Asiago. I will certainly be interested in both of our results!
Quote from: nccheesemike on February 05, 2017, 03:49:36 AM
Yes it seems the only WF that carries it is the one I go to: the address is 102B New Waverly Place Cary NC 27518. It can be hit or miss sometimes too. I believe the brand you found that was $4.99 is Atlanta Fresh. Their yogurt is amazing. I may use their milk as a backup sometime but really need to go to a farm near me for raw milk.
Aha - that is the location I went to, but that must have been a "miss" day. Good to know - I'll try again next time I'm up that way.
I did not add cream, Andy, but I got good local high fat milk supply. My yield has gone up ever since I use the milk from this farm. I made Montasio 3 months ago and it turned out creamy too. Should I skim the cream to get more nutty taste you think? I am happy with the cheese but I want the nuttiness to be more pronounced, at the moment I am just aging them some more hopefully with time it will get better.
Good question, Ann - and I don't know the answer. What bacteria are you using?
I followed Boofer's make , except this time without the goat's milk. I used Thermo C and PS.
Thermo C has ST and LH - the latter is what I think especially contributes to the nutty taste. I have never used Thermo C, but only separate TA61 (just ST) and LH100 (LH and LBL). As noted here (https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php?topic=6387.0), the LBL is an important adjunct for the maturation of the cheese, but I don't know how or if it contributes in terms of nutty flavor.
I have only made one gruyere style, using TA61, LH100, and PS - but as far as I could tell, when I sampled it at 6 months, the PS did not contribute anything detectable to the flavor - but I got this a bit on the salty side, and PS does not like too much salt; also I did not include any warm phase in the aging. I'm still aging it out, so perhaps down the line I will detect a bit more ...
Well, it's 5 years since you made your Cheddasio.... PLEASE let us know how it turned out.... ::)
Bob
I have just made an Alpine washed rind modified from Cheesemaking.com I have pressed it and dry salted it and am about to wax it .It has some similarities to what you describe but without the cheddaring/milling. Like you I like to combine various techniques in the hope of something new. I would really like to know how your Emmentaler/cheddar comes out so PLEASE give us some feedback in due course.
In response to popular demand ... :)
I hadn't realized that I hadn't ever updated this thread with the results. So, the results were ... good. Not remarkable, but good.
As expected, the character of the cheese was a cross between cheddar and a Montasio or other alpine. Some cheddary notes to the taste, but not the full cheddar flavor; some smoothness and suppleness of the texture, without the crumbliness of my typical cheddar makes. I don't recall trying to melt it, so not sure how it would perform there.
Sad truth be told, I have not kept up very well with my cheese making. My work has been especially demanding the past few years, and the onset of COVID led to a solid year hiatus in making anything. Since then, I've made only a half-dozen cheeses or so over the past year. I would surely like to do more ... it is a shame when a job gets in the way of one's hobbies!
Thanks for the reply, Andy.... We will all be glad when COVID is behind us!.... My Montasio is a washed curd version, about half the recipes I found were washed and half weren't.... I compared your recipe to my Asiago, and it's so close I just changed the scalding temperature, and added my Cheddaring technique from my Red Leicester (1.5 hrs, to be adjusted as necessary).... When I do the make I will post in your thread here about mine, if that's OK?....
Bob
I feel your pain. COVID and work has led to 0 cheeses being made here since... a long time ago (probably about 4 or 5 months)... I'm missing the best cheese aging time of the year, but absolutely no energy to make cheese.
Next weekend we plan to make a Cheddasiago.... Basically an Asiago (thermophilic) cheese that is cheddared and salted before pressing.... I will be following the recipe in the first post in this thread, without the mesophilic culture (change recommended by awakephd).... Assuming the make goes well I will post our recipe and a few months later the results, in a new thread....
Bob