I'm attempting my first batch of aged cheeses and I have three Taleggio-type cheeses (but with higher fat content) currently in the cave at the moment. The first cheese was made first as a very small batch (1 liter) while the remaining two were made with 3 liters divided into two cheeses two weeks later.
For all three cheeses, I'm trying out the following schedule:
- First week after salting: daily washing with 3% solution with B. linens on both sides
- After the first week, wash only on Wednesdays and Sundays
The thing that's worrying me is that I see very little B. linens growth. I'm also a bit confused about the washing protocol and the aging environment. I see different recommendations from various threads/website on humidity and storage. Right now, I'm maintaining humidity >90% and keeping a damp cloth (sprayed with the 3% brine) touching the cheese surfaces.
Also, about the washing procedure, is it normal for the washing cloth to become slightly milky as though rubbing off some of the cheese after washing?
One more thing I should mention is that the B. linens weren't taken from a commercial culture. I created an inoculating brine with store-bought Munster cheese. I'm also using the same brine to wash the rinds.
For reference, I've attached a picture of the progress a few days back. The leftmost cheese is a week older than the other two.
Sometimes it can take a while for the surface of the cheese to raise in pH enough for b linens to grow. Did you add any cultures to help with that? My higher pH cheeses tend to want to grow linens even when I ask them nicely not to, so try giving it time. How old is your cheese?
This is probably not the best way to go about it but I was working with what I had on hand. Here's what I did in terms of cultures:
- maintain a mesophilic culture started from a Fromage Blanc direct set packet
- start the brine from the rind of store-bought Munster
So the only thing I'm definite about is the presence of B. linens and the mesophilic culture. I'm hoping they had some Geo in that cheese but I can only guess. Is there any way to know whether the surface is changing? It is getting slimy but in a creamy kind of way so I'm not sure if it's growth or just me rubbing off the cheese surface (I do the wash gently though).
The left one is 13 days old from salting and the remaining two are 6 days old from salting.
Slimy would be a good sign that there is some microflora at work. What exactly they are doing and who they are is uncertain, but my washed rinds have always gotten slimy before they got any orange. I personally would do a light spray and not mess too much with rubbing with a cloth. Maybe a sensual massage with some nice clean hands. You can check out my first B. linens adventure here (https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,16027.0.html)
I just checked out your thread. Thanks!
I'm still a bit confused with the washing procedure after reading that. Since I can do a light spray with clean hands, I suppose that will eliminate the worry about running out of cheese eventually from all the abrasion. ;D Still, I'm not too clear about what to do after. Did you air dry your cheese after washing? What about storage?
I'm currently keeping them in a (cheap) plastic box with a pool of water at the bottom (not touching the cheese of course) and damp/wet cloth on the cheeses. Is this too much moisture?
After you get the cheese wet, put it in a supperware container with the lid on and keep it at 55F. No need for pools of water or having cloth touching it or scrubbing it. Once it's slimey don't be washing it all the time either. I think you may have been rubbing off the good stuff that you need on there doing work to raise the pH. For my Tupperware setups I find that just keeping the cheese in the closed container provides plenty of humidity.
So I did just that last night. ;D I put the cheeses in plastic containers with only a paper towel for a bed and without any extra source of water. I'm pretty sure humidity has changed since the older cheese started growing blue mold (those guys are fast!).
I scrubbed the blue off with some brine on a paper towel and just hand-washed the remaining cheeses. One thing I did notice is that it doesn't feel like there's really a distinct rind. It feels more like a single uniform piece of cheese. Is this really normal or did the really high humidity stop the rind from forming?
With my linens cheeses, I notice a similar phenomenon to what you are describing. A more distinct rind will begin to form later as the linens grows.
So to see if I understand you correctly ..... you started washing right away the next day after the cheeses were made or 1 week later ?
The cheese should sit for 4 to 7 days until it gets a little slimey then you can start to wash it. That is the geo raising the ph on the surface and then when you start to wash , it knocks back the geo a little and the b linens comes along as it likes the wet a little more .
B linens and geo are everywhere , so no issues there .
I would stop washing for a few days and see if it gets a little more orange . It may not be a very dark color as some are very light orange .
Quote from: DoctorCheese on May 14, 2017, 04:49:33 AM
With my linens cheeses, I notice a similar phenomenon to what you are describing. A more distinct rind will begin to form later as the linens grows.
That's good to hear. Hopefully this works out. Thanks for the help!
Quote from: Gregore on May 14, 2017, 05:34:17 AM
So to see if I understand you correctly ..... you started washing right away the next day after the cheeses were made or 1 week later ?
The cheese should sit for 4 to 7 days until it gets a little slimey then you can start to wash it. That is the geo raising the ph on the surface and then when you start to wash , it knocks back the geo a little and the b linens comes along as it likes the wet a little more .
B linens and geo are everywhere , so no issues there .
I would stop washing for a few days and see if it gets a little more orange . It may not be a very dark color as some are very light orange .
Yeah, I started the washing process the day after the cheeses were salted. Is that bad for the cheese? :-[ The wash I use has B. linens so hopefully it partially makes up for it. The cheeses do have a slightly rosy color but it isn't too prominent yet.
Depending on the source of your store-bought Muenster, it may not have active B. linens - commercial cheeses (non-artisanal) often use short-cuts to simulate the results without taking the time needed for the real thing. :(
Are you getting any "smelly feet" odor? If so, even if you don't see orange, that is a good sign that some is at work.
It certainly does have a prominent odor. But then again, anything I spray with the B linens brine I'm using tends to smell like the smelly feet.
I'm not sure about orange but the deeper crevices in the first cheese does have rosy spots. I'll check it out again tomorrow. It's darned hard to leave these cheeses alone without checking daily. ;D
I opened up the thin one and there was no sign of proteolysis or even a rind. The taste was also primarily sour so I guess the pH is still low. On the other hand, the thicker cheeses are turning a bit more orange at this point so I'm hoping that they're maturing better.
The two remaining cheeses are also starting to grow a fine white mold. Is there any way of knowing whether this is PC or GC? Should I knock this growth back with a wash or let it run its course to better condition the surface?
If it's sour I think you should consider adjusting something about the make. Did you salt at the right time and with enough gusto?
With no pH meter yet, I treated it the same way I treated my Camembert (in fact they were made on the same day as my first Camembert). I left it to fully drain overnight under the assumption that the thermophilic cultures should be less active at room temperature anyway. I dry salted at 2% after the overnight drain.
Aren't some washed cheeses also supposed to start out as acidic and slowly increasing in pH as a result of the B. linens activity? Or is this kind of mechanism only done by Geo and PC?
EDIT:
So here's one of the two cheeses showing the fine white mold growth. Do I wash the mold off or let it partially condition the surface?
B linens does not raise pH on its own from my understanding. It just moves in opportunistically once someone else has done the work.
Oh, I might have misunderstood the action of B. linens then. :-[ Then again, don't the other organisms in the cheese (like yeasts) act towards increasing the pH anyway before B. linens can grow? Or is this mechanism limited to the surface?
The way I see things right now, since I'm faced with an acidic cheese, my backup plan is to let the white mold grow naturally and end up with a stinky-bloomy cheese. Or is there a better way to go about this?
Here is a picture of my Taste of Portland cheese. As you can see, it has a white powdery mold with b linens growing beneath it. I like the experimental side of cheese making and I roll with the punches (mistakes or flaws) which has always ended with an edible creation. You might like looking at my wild flora cheese (https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,16192.msg124147.html#msg124147).
My advice for you in regards to your current situation is to let go of pre conceived expectations for the type of cheese you are creating and instead focus on what you've got, so you can make the best of it.
The other option is war. Depending on your rind thickness and what phenotype of mold you've got, it is possible you can brush it off every day and hope b linens thrives before you have destroyed your rind (which I assume is not thick or non existent at this point). If the mold doesn't get backed off though, it will probably liquify your cheese pretty quick (PC cheeses usually aren't aged long at 55 degrees).
Yeah, I did get to read that thread before. ;D
As I do love the experimentation with these cheeses, I was really planning on going along with the cheese development. I just have to check if there's any really bad reason not to do so.
So yeah, right now, I have a pair of cheeses (https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,16339.0.html) that have been converted from a bloomy-rind to a washed-rind alongside these two (but in different boxes). And now these two are washed-rinds that are becoming bloomy. Interesting... ::) I'm guessing cross-contamination may have some role in this.
Anyway, I'm planning on patting down the mold tomorrow and flipping them to allow the mold to grow on the other side for a few days. Afterwards, off they go to the fridge for slower ripening in wrappers. ::) Thanks for the advise!
It's all about curd moisture levels , the ph at salting and how much humidity you age them in
Pc likes a little dryer curd and storage than b linens , b linens likes a little higher ph to start but it is not mandatory . And b linens likes the surface moisture from regular washing of the rind
B linens will not grow well before ph raises up from geo activity , pc will start with a lower ph
If your washing the rind and pc is growing more than b linens then more than likely the ph was too low at salting
So on a timed recipe salt sooner ...... maybe 10 to 15 percent sooner
Quote from: Gregore on May 30, 2017, 04:08:02 AM
It's all about curd moisture levels , the ph at salting and how much humidity you age them in
Pc likes a little dryer curd and storage than b linens , b linens likes a little higher ph to start but it is not mandatory . And b linens likes the surface moisture from regular washing of the rind
B linens will not grow well before ph raises up from geo activity , pc will start with a lower ph
If your washing the rind and pc is growing more than b linens then more than likely the ph was too low at salting
So on a timed recipe salt sooner ...... maybe 10 to 15 percent sooner
Interesting information Gregore. Hopefully I can get a pH meter soon so I can make these cheeses with more consistency.
Also, I flipped the cheeses just now and patted down the mold growing on the surface. The bottom side was sitting on some damp kitchen tissues and I
may have ripped some of the growth off on the bottom part. On the other hand, that side of the cheese was also visibly redder so I'm guessing the B. linens liked the damp tissue. Will the mold still grow on this side or will I have a two-faced cheese? :o
Quote from: DoctorCheese on May 29, 2017, 04:20:40 PM
The other option is war.
That line gave me a chuckle - I've done battle a few times, usually with mixed results. :)
If the bottom side is more orange/red then that may indicate your humidity is a little low .
Some times b linens just takes time to get started .
Quote from: Gregore on May 31, 2017, 03:55:46 AM
If the bottom side is more orange/red then that may indicate your humidity is a little low .
This is what's confusing me. Don't the molds enjoy a higher humidity range than B. linens? I've tried keeping all surfaces damp before with a kitchen tissue but that didn't help at all with the growth. I only started seeing signs of orange when I let the surface breathe a bit more.
In any case, right now, I'm trying to regrow mold on the other side of the cheese for a few days before migrating them to a cold fridge for a slower affinage.
Here's an interesting tidbit that I found on internet - of course, considering the source, it MUST be true, right? :)
https://microbewiki.kenyon.edu/index.php/Brevibacterium_linens
This says that the color will not show unless it is exposed to light. That's something I've never heard before, but perhaps explains why sometimes we get the stink but not the color - ??
Also found this link - hope it shows up; it is a Google Books page from the Oxford Companion to Cheese: https://books.google.com/books?id=qRg1DQAAQBAJ&pg=PA664&lpg=PA664&dq=b+linens+soften+cheese&source=bl&ots=EOfE8cxFhB&sig=_WNLULhuuPnvQ_TCNk0k3HnMFeA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiczKuNu5rUAhVE7yYKHSJrBD8Q6AEIPzAE#v=onepage&q=b%20linens%20soften%20cheese&f=false
It says that b. Linens has a proteolytic action that helps to soften a cheese. That said, it doesn't sound like it is quite the same action/process that the PC / geo produce ...
Well, thanks to your link I ended up digging through journals pertaining to B. linens.
An interesting bit of information can be found in Aspects of Enzymology and Biochemical Properties of Brevibacterium linens Relevant to Cheese Ripening: A Review (http://dzumenvis.nic.in/Physiology/pdf/Aspects%20of%20enzymology.pdf) (Rattray and Fox, 1999).
Some keypoints pertaining to some of the concerns with B. linens growth:
- B. linens is a highly halotolerant bacteria and many papers suggest it grows well at about 8% salt concentrations;
- As we know, there are many different strains of B. linens. This paper points to another study that investigated 32 different strains and some strains produced color with or without light while some only produced the pigments when exposed to light. Also, it seems that under pH 6.0, sufficient NaCl is needed to present any coloration but the color is most visible at pH 7.0;
- B. linens seems to like growing at room temperatures. I'm guessing this means we can let the bacteria grow better by airing at room temperature for short bursts of time?;
- Quite interestingly, under the right conditions, B. linens produces antimicrobial peptides (bacteriocins as described in this paper (https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00253-003-1292-9)) that are capable of neutralizing Listeria and Clostridium.
Regarding proteolysis, I found a short article (http://genome.jgi.doe.gov/breli/breli.home.html) describing B. linens behavior (again referencing the same paper as above). This one suggests that B. linens raises the pH as it grows which, as we know, is the key to casein resolubilization. So assuming I'm reading this correctly, it would imply that it should have a similar action as PC/GC.
Then again, while I am into research as a profession, I'm in a completely different field so my understanding of biochemistry may be quite limited. ;D
What do you research?
Computer engineering. ::)
Washed rind cheeses were generally in the past washed on 1 side then placed dry side put down on wood shelves , the next time it is washed it gets flipped and dry side down again .
The wood helps a lot to get the moisture correct , the next best thing is dry side down on a thin plastic mesh with dry paper towels under the mesh. This should be in a plastic box or a humidity controlled cave .
And b linens needs higher surface moisture than the other cultures , but blue is also happy in this range.
Quote from: nightsky on June 01, 2017, 02:17:30 AM
Computer engineering. ::)
Microbes, microchips -- surely just about the same thing, right? :)
Quote from: awakephd on June 02, 2017, 02:31:48 PM
Microbes, microchips -- surely just about the same thing, right? :)
Hmm... Close enough... ::)
Particularly if we are talking about surface-mounted molds/bacteria like PC and b. Linens. :)
Quote from: awakephd on June 03, 2017, 03:16:48 AM
Particularly if we are talking about surface-mounted molds/bacteria like PC and b. Linens. :)
;D
Going back to the cheeses, I have a decision to make. I can keep maintaining the cheeses and the mold growth in their boxes right now or I can wrap them up for aging.
The problem I have with wrapping is that the cheese wrap I have for bloomy cheeses (bought from thecheesemaker.com) failed me the last time around. All cheeses I've wrapped with it so far (1 Camembert and 2 Cambozolas) have ammoniated on me which seems to be indicative of poor micro-environments if I my understanding is correct. Any suggestions?
New pic as to how they are doing today so,we can advise . Preferably with a pic showing how rounded the edges are getting as that is what softens first .
When the edge gets soft and rounded (1/4 inch or so ) on a reblochon it is time to wrap and colder fridge
Quote from: Gregore on June 04, 2017, 04:33:36 AM
New pic as to how they are doing today so,we can advise . Preferably with a pic showing how rounded the edges are getting as that is what softens first .
When the edge gets soft and rounded (1/4 inch or so ) on a reblochon it is time to wrap and colder fridge
Here they are Gregore! I actually wrapped them yesterday but here they are unwrapped.
The first two are the Taleggios-turned-Pont-l'Eveque while the last two are my Camemberts-turned-stinky. I'm showing both sides of the cheese so there are four pictures in total.