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CHEESE TYPE BOARDS (for Cheese Lovers and Cheese Makers) => ADJUNCT - Rennet Surface White Mold (Penicillium candidum) Ripened => Topic started by: Rain Frances on September 16, 2017, 06:26:09 PM

Title: How Would YOU Interpret This Step? Camembert Question!!
Post by: Rain Frances on September 16, 2017, 06:26:09 PM
Hi My Friends :)

I would like to make Camembert this week for the first time and I'm following the recipe on the New England Site. I've written to them for an answer to my question, but they really are dang slow at responding, so I thought I'd give it a shot here.

The instructions say this at the coagulation step:

"A small amount of rennet is then added to begin the initial coagulation in a short period of time (15-20 min) but allow the final firming of the curd to continue for a much longer period of time (90 minutes or more from rennet addition).

This will result in a curd that tends to hold the moisture and fat better due to the stronger protein matrix.

Add about 1/4 tsp (1.25ml) of single strength liquid rennet.

The milk now needs to sit quiet for 90 minutes while the culture works and the rennet coagulates the curd. "


How would you interpret this? Am I right to say that:

1. I prepare my 1/4 tsp of single strength rennet as per usual in 1/4 cup cool unfiltered water.
2. I add a wee bit of that mixture to the milk, stir and let is sit 15-20 minutes.
3. I add the rest of the rennet mixture after the 15-20 minute mark and stir again (even if curd is already forming??), then let it sit an additional 90 minutes.

What do you think? Thanks so much!!
Rain
Title: Re: How Would YOU Interpret This Step? Camembert Question!!
Post by: Fritz on September 16, 2017, 08:10:35 PM
Yes... odd as that sounds. You probably won't see much curd from the first shot ... cams have a soft curd to begin with. Often it's not even cut at all, rather sliced thin ladel scoops are gently placed into the molds after the 90 min wait. I make cams every 6 weeks, so I use a well rehearsed recipe that works well (from one of the books). I've never tried this 2 shot rennet technique and am interested in your results... good luck, and thanks.

F
Title: Re: How Would YOU Interpret This Step? Camembert Question!!
Post by: Rain Frances on September 16, 2017, 08:16:52 PM
Thanks Fritz :)

I have some of Caldwell's books and I've looked elsewhere for recipes but this is the first one that mentions the double rennet/coagulation step. I'm a very newbie and bought my supplies from their company so I thought I'd follow their recipe.

I've never made a soft cheese, so it seemed a strange idea to "upset" the rennet working 20 minutes in...but I'm willing to give it a go!

I'm going to try this in the next week, I'll definitely post the results!!

Rain
Title: Re: How Would YOU Interpret This Step? Camembert Question!!
Post by: Fritz on September 16, 2017, 08:52:15 PM
You will be fine, imho... cams are easy and very forgiving ... I use Caldwell's as well and it also is not too tricky... not as tricky as your mozzarella, I assure you :) use real cam/soft cheese wrap paper for the aging or finishing (week 5) not cello, parch or tin foil.. some age it fully unwrapped in a maturing box...(my preferance)  10*C 85-90% RH but flip them bi-daily and keep the box/mat dry, clean and free of white moulds. Open the box for a few min during your maintenance routine to let it "air" otherwise ammonia will build up. You will also need to get the thickness just right... it should have a "hockey puck" proportion for proper and even ripening. So, you will need to fill the molds just right to settle to that level... To get it just as you like it... (3-4 inch moulds usually you need to fill to close to the top.
Document fill levels, end result thicknesses, maturing temps and times. I do 2-3 weeks in cheese fridge then 3-4 weeks in regular fridge unwrapped but always in maturing boxes and it gets them usually to a nice medium rare state :) wrap when your happy with them or one week before if you want to give some away.
It may take a few batches to dial it in... but when you do... boom!
Good luck ..let us know
Title: Re: How Would YOU Interpret This Step? Camembert Question!!
Post by: FooKayaks2 on September 16, 2017, 08:57:19 PM
Hi Rain,

I think the recipe may be poorly written and it has you slightly confused.

Camembert uses less rennet than other harder cheese as you want a soft curd. This then results in a longer flocculation time, and a longer Floc factor is used to determine when to cut.

When they are talking about the in initial coagulation time they are talking about Floc time, what is Floc  time?
It is the time that it takes for an initial gel to form,this can be measured using a small spinning bowl or plastic cup on the top of the milk. When this won't spin freely you have Floc time or the initial coagulation time talked about in the recipe.

Once you have this you can use different Floc factors depending on the type of cheese to achieve the moisture content of the curd you want. Camembert is 6x so if you have an  in initial coagulation time/Floc Time of 15 minutes you would x 6 to get 90 minutes. Each type of cheese has a different Floc factor to achieve different curd mouisture levels in the final cheese.

By using Floc times and factors you can take into account the variations of your milk and Rennet and cut at the correct time. Rather than using a time based approach and the clean break test.

So after all of that. I would add all of your rennet at once!

Good luck

Mathew.
Title: Re: How Would YOU Interpret This Step? Camembert Question!!
Post by: awakephd on September 17, 2017, 12:30:10 AM
I too think that you actually add the rennet all at once - or at least, that's what I do. (So it must be right - right? Right? :))
Title: Re: How Would YOU Interpret This Step? Camembert Question!!
Post by: Gregore on September 17, 2017, 04:19:32 AM
I agree badly worded recipe.

Only add rennet once

If you want to try floc on this recipe , multiply the time to floc by 4 then set timer to that result minus the original time . Or just times by 3 and set timer for that result.
Title: Re: How Would YOU Interpret This Step? Camembert Question!!
Post by: OzzieCheese on September 17, 2017, 06:29:44 AM
Try this method..

https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,14002.0.html (https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,14002.0.html)

Been working for me for a few years now. !!  Please if you have any question PM me.  Camembert is not difficult, it is fiddley..

--Mal
Title: Re: How Would YOU Interpret This Step? Camembert Question!!
Post by: Rain Frances on September 18, 2017, 03:18:37 PM
Hi Fritz :) Thanks for your response! Oh gosh...let's not discuss the Mozzarella lol! :) I bought the Brie/Camembert cheese wrap paper so no worries there, and I have the right molds and cultures...so I'm excited to try! But I don't think I'm generous enough to give them away lol! ;) Thanks for all of the advice! I guess the only thing I'm missing is the right size ripening boxes. I'm going to start with just two. I'll definitely post my results!!
Title: Re: How Would YOU Interpret This Step? Camembert Question!!
Post by: Rain Frances on September 18, 2017, 03:18:57 PM
Hi Mathew :) You are right that the recipe was poorly written...a lot of them on that web site are but it's like pulling teeth to get a straight answer from their "cheese expert" who wrote the recipes. And thanks for explaining the "floc" time. This is all new to me and I want to build my confidence a little. I wasted to much money on milk during the Mozza crisis of 2017 lol...I just want a few nice Cams to be proud of! :)
Title: Re: How Would YOU Interpret This Step? Camembert Question!!
Post by: Rain Frances on September 18, 2017, 03:19:14 PM
You ARE right Andy!!! :) That's what I suspected as well!
Title: Re: How Would YOU Interpret This Step? Camembert Question!!
Post by: Rain Frances on September 18, 2017, 03:19:33 PM
Thanks Gregore! I'm so glad I came here or I would have made a dumb mistake!!! Ooops! :)
Title: Re: How Would YOU Interpret This Step? Camembert Question!!
Post by: Rain Frances on September 18, 2017, 03:19:54 PM
Hi Mal :) Thanks for the link. I read your thread a few days ago and thought maybe I should try it. I don't normally add cream to my milk, do you think it's necessary? I only ask because I don't have any on hand. Also in your recipe you write GLA rennet, is that just a brand name? I have double strength liquid animal rennet, so I'm assuming I'd halve the amount you listed. I'll keep you posted!! Maybe I should have PM'd these questions...I'll do that now!
Title: Re: How Would YOU Interpret This Step? Camembert Question!!
Post by: Rain Frances on September 18, 2017, 03:23:58 PM
Hi Everyone,

Just thought I'd vent a wee bit. I got a response from the "cheese expert" at New England. His response?

"As stated" then he copied and pasted the exact same recipe.

GRRRRR

It took SIX email exchanges and me CC-ing the Administrator of the company to finally get a straight response. As you all said, ADD RENNET ONCE. At least the Administrator admitted that she could understand the confusion, whereas the "cheese expert" who wrote the recipe was only interested in arguing, debating and evading the question. Last time I use one of their recipes!!!

Good thing I came here!! :)

Rain
Title: Re: How Would YOU Interpret This Step? Camembert Question!!
Post by: awakephd on September 18, 2017, 09:27:30 PM
Mal's recipe is what I use. You don't have to add the cream ... but some extra cream is soooo delicious! I think Mal's proportions give a "double cream." (Note: I'm referring to the proportions in the recipe; I am unable to comment on Mal's personal proportions! :)) If you add even more cream, it becomes a "triple cream." My limited experience with the latter suggests that it significantly changes the way the cheese ripens - it get soft but not completely gooey, and it takes longer. And in taking longer, it gets rather strong. All that to say that I have decided that the double cream (or whatever is the right term for Mal's recipe) is "just right" for my tastes.
Title: Re: How Would YOU Interpret This Step? Camembert Question!!
Post by: Fritz on September 18, 2017, 11:18:37 PM
Quote from: Rain Frances on September 18, 2017, 03:18:37 PM
But I don't think I'm generous enough to give them away lol! ;) Thanks for all of the advice! I guess the only thing I'm missing is the right size ripening boxes. I'm going to start with just two. I'll definitely post my results!!

... most of my cheeses I use 5-6 gallon batches, including the cams... hence me giving so many away! It's my cow who dictates my batch sizes :) she has a calf on her now so the cheesemaking fireworks start in about 2 weeks, I'm prepping with new molds and new moulds ;)
With regards to ripening box's for cams, I use the 14x14 hinged opaque "craft" boxes sold in Walmart ... the only stamped marking was "made in USA" they are thin enough to stack nicely, so I can make 4-5 cams per box and 2-3 boxes tall ... fits nicely in a wine fridge shelf and ergo saves space.
Title: Re: How Would YOU Interpret This Step? Camembert Question!!
Post by: Rain Frances on September 19, 2017, 12:57:26 AM
Hi Andy :)
You're funny :)
I may just get some cream after all....I love the idea of TRIPLE cream cheese...I've had triple Brie and found is luscious!! :) Though I have also tried some triples from France that you could smell a mile away and they were really strong. I wonder if that has to do with the culture, I'm not very savvy on Camembert right now! I'm assuming what I make will be a milder version.
Title: Re: How Would YOU Interpret This Step? Camembert Question!!
Post by: Rain Frances on September 19, 2017, 12:59:59 AM
Hi Fritz :) LUCKY that you have a cow!!! I guess in that instance I'd be giving cheese away too! I have some plastic bins thingies, but they are round and I don't know that they would be airy enough for each wheel. (I think a 1 pound wheel would fit too snuggly)...I do have another plastic box like yours but it's smaller, I have to make sure they'll fit in the cheese cave too. So many variables...but I'm thinking of starting tomorrow, eek! :)
Title: Re: How Would YOU Interpret This Step? Camembert Question!!
Post by: Rain Frances on September 19, 2017, 01:01:12 AM
By the way...the Administrator of New England sent me a gift card for $10 for my troubles. I guess that was nice of her. She's better at customer service than the cheese guy!
Title: Re: How Would YOU Interpret This Step? Camembert Question!!
Post by: Fritz on September 19, 2017, 02:07:55 AM
Sweet! 10$ ... they are generous with 20-30% off during US statutory holidays. So best time to buy from them is on the holiday long weekends. In between them, one can get 10% off by registering an email address while browsing on their website... I keep a few "disposable" email addresses for just such occasions. The shipping to Canada is the killer from them ....

My local source is Glengarry cheese  http://www.glengarrycheesemaking.on.ca/ (http://www.glengarrycheesemaking.on.ca/)
Margaret the owner there is an award winning cheesemaker and has many winning and best-in-show international awards... including her beating out the best French cheeses. So she knows her Kung-fu. You won't have to pay for duty and shipping costs are obviously better. Unfortunately she caters more to large scale cheesemakers, but still takes the time to answer the phone and has plenty of stuff there for you and me :)
Title: Re: How Would YOU Interpret This Step? Camembert Question!!
Post by: awakephd on September 19, 2017, 12:28:25 PM
Looking back ... I realized that my attempt at humor could be taken in a far more risque way than I had intended. I hope I have not offended anyone!
Title: Re: How Would YOU Interpret This Step? Camembert Question!!
Post by: Rain Frances on September 19, 2017, 01:43:17 PM
Fritz you've had a good experience with Glengarry? I thought about that company and I saw a little disclaimer on their website that stated they would not be responsible for any damage or lost items during shipping. This kind of turned me off a bit, so I sent an email asking if this happens often enough to warrant that disclaimer. No response so I buy my stuff mostly from MakeCheese.ca, they are in Alberta. They're a smaller company but has new management and she is wonderful at responding to questions. Whatever I can't find at MakeCheese, then I go to New England. Actually I did take advantage of the Labour Day weekend 5% off this month to buy those heat-proof gloves for my next Mozza! I hope I can take advantage of the $10 gift card because it expires beginning of October and right now I don't need anything. I agree, the shipping is outrageous, but the exchange isn't too bad.
Title: Re: How Would YOU Interpret This Step? Camembert Question!!
Post by: Rain Frances on September 19, 2017, 01:44:24 PM
Hi Andy, you certainly didn't offend me :)
Title: Re: How Would YOU Interpret This Step? Camembert Question!!
Post by: Fritz on September 19, 2017, 05:04:58 PM
I've seen your cheese naked before, Andy ... you should be proud. Far from offended :)

I've actually taken the time to actually go to Glengarry... twice :) it's about 5 hours away, but sort of enroute to mother-in-laws place. I had a wrong product shipped to me and they were happy to exchange it via no extra cost courier pickup and delivery. So no issue there.. and like I said, Margaret is one you really want to have your questions ready for and be ready to soak up the detailed answer and her experience. I was offered a short tour of the place and I bought her book ... (very limited find). She is not the usual person who answers the phone but does pick up from time to time. So, no problems from Glengarry. It would be close to you, only an hour or so away I guess.
Title: Re: How Would YOU Interpret This Step? Camembert Question!!
Post by: Rain Frances on September 19, 2017, 06:15:03 PM
That's good to know, maybe my email got lost, you never know. We go to Hawkesbury about once a year to the LCBO to get stuff we can't find here, and I thought we could detour to Glengarry on the way back since it's just 45 minutes from there. The whole trip would be about 2 hours each way, which isn't too bad. I'd like to visit her place and see what they have to offer in the shop.
Title: Re: How Would YOU Interpret This Step? Camembert Question!!
Post by: Fritz on September 19, 2017, 07:19:59 PM
Please keep in mind, Glengarry is foremost a retail cheese shop, it sells cheesemaking stuff out of the back room mostly from online and over the phone orders. I'm sure they will let you back there upon asking ...
While there, be sure to score some of their award winning cheese such as Lankaaster and Celtic Blue ... be sure to call way ahead to make sure the Celtic blue is available as it sells out fast! Or ask when the next batch is ready and plan for that date. If you have extra spending money, consider her cheese making book... again call ahead and have Margaret sign it for you in case she isn't there when you are.
Here is a pic of her book.. notice my cheese books are spiral bounded and cover laminated? ... lays flat on the counter and wet proof for the moist cheese making environment. Done at Staples (Office Depot)...very worth it:)
Title: Re: How Would YOU Interpret This Step? Camembert Question!!
Post by: awakephd on September 20, 2017, 01:48:36 PM
Quote from: Fritz on September 19, 2017, 05:04:58 PM
I've seen your cheese naked before, Andy ... you should be proud. Far from offended :)

Now I'm the one blushing ... :)
Title: Re: How Would YOU Interpret This Step? Camembert Question!!
Post by: Rain Frances on September 20, 2017, 04:55:42 PM
Fritz that's brilliant about the spiralling of the books. Great idea. I wanted to visit Glengarry to see her set up, thanks for telling me it's mostly retail, but if we get a chance to drive to Ontario, I will definitely make a stop there.
Title: Re: How Would YOU Interpret This Step? Camembert Question!!
Post by: OzzieCheese on September 21, 2017, 04:43:31 AM
Hi Rain.

For ripening I use the Décor boxes (the red ones with a plastic rack in bottom) - two CAMs per box.  It's important to keep flipping the Cams when the mould starts growing as it can grow around the grills of the rack and you run the risk of ripping off the lovely rind.  I did that once, leave too long before flipping, an the complete bottom came off and it didn't ripen after that.  You do have to pay them a little attention during the maturing stage.

-- Mal