Hello,
Has anyone ever compared, for the same semi-hard or hard cheese, making it with homogenized milk vs with skimmed milk + cream ?
What difference, if any, have you seen on the texture ? Taste ?
Thanks !
It would depend on the fat content you were looking for for the cheese you are making. For instance the Swiss use a 35% fat content to make Emmental. For a triple cream Brie you would would the added fat. Virtually all of the cheese I make is made with pasteurized homogenized whole milk. Whether I use a mixture of 2% and whole milk depends on whether I'm making a low fat cheese. Can't understand why you would want to buy skimmed milk and add cream as it would seem to be more expensive then using whole milk.
Hello Al Lewis,
Thanks for the reply. The question is not really on how much cream to add to milk but is about asking if anybody saw any advantage of using skimmed milk + cream instead of homogenized milk.
I have been making cheese for a couple of years with homogenized milk, mainly because the very few milk that are unhomogenized are at least twice the price of homogenized milk. I'm pretty happy with the texture of my cheeses up to now but I know that unhomogenized milk is better for cheese making, especially for semi-hard and hard cheeses. So the idea is to potentially using skimmed milk + cream instead of homogenized milk. I haven't tested it yet but I was curious to see if anybody had compared results with these two milks approaches.
In term of price, it will be a little more expensive with skimmed + cream but I think it worth it for cheeses that age several months.
Can't help you on that one. If I want to make a special cheese I go to Blackjack Valley Farm, about 10 miles away, and but raw milk. I usually add heavy cream to my homogenized milk for most cheeses.
Skim milk is still homogenized and almost all store bought cream is ultra-pasteurized. Not a great combination.
Thanks for your reply. Skimmed milk contains almost no fat so it cannot really be homogenized. If I add unhomogenized cream to skimmed milk, the fat globules will be bigger (~3.5µm) and more intact, resembling the state of the unhomogenized fat globules. I have asked the cream company if they homogenize their cream. There would be no point to add this cream to skimmed milk if it was homogenized to go back to the equivalent to homogenized milk. As for UHT pasteurisation of cream, not really a problem either since the vast majority of proteins would come from the HTST pasteurized skimmed milk so the curd should form as for HTST pasteurized milk, with some help from CaCl2.
If anybody has tried the cream + skimmed milk combination, I would be very interested to read your experience with that.
Otherwise, I will make the test with small cheeses when I have the time and come back to let you know if it worth it.
Addition - From Dairy processing handbook:
Products of high fat content are more difficult to homogenize and also more likely to show evidence of fat clumping, because the concentration of serum proteins is low in relation to the fat content. Usually, cream with higher fat content than 20 % cannot be homogenized at high pressure, because clusters are formed as a result of lack of membrane material (casein).
Not exactly the same scenario, but I have added heavy (cow) cream to my raw goat milk when I wanted to make triple cream cheeses.
The results were great. But just as you'd expect, the larger cow fat globules have a quick tendency to want to separate (as you'd expect in non-homogenized milk) so you have to stir occasionally during culture ripening up to the point of rennet to avoid a layer of fatty cream separating. And if you have an especially long flocculation time it can become apparent again as you'll have curds that do not have uniformity of fat distribution.
In my part of the world all store bought cream is UHT.
Quote from: Sailor Con Queso on November 20, 2017, 10:15:17 PM
Skim milk is still homogenized and almost all store bought cream is ultra-pasteurized. Not a great combination.
I have found that Albertsons stores sell both. The one in the red container is Ultra Pasteurized whereas the one in the yellow is not. At least at our store. I still check the labels. :o
Thanks Al Lewis.
Here, I am lucky enough to have a non UHT, non homogenized (I assume... ) cream without any additive.
I'm thinking of what cheese I will test it with. Tomme would be nice but takes 8L per test and takes at least 2 1/2 months to see the results. Probably mozzarella and test meltabilty. :) (//)
How do you know that is not UHT cream? It just says pasteurized on the label.
I assume that if this cream would be UHT, it would be written UHT pasteurized instead of just pasteurized, although, I know, there is still a chance that it is even if it is not written on the label. I wrote to the producer of this cream a couple of days ago to know if it was UHT or homogenized but still haven't got an answer.
But the most important is that it is not homogenized, because that is what I want tibadd to my milk : un-homogenized fat globules. Not sure what imoact UHT pasteurization would have on its behavior in my HTST pasteurized skim milk.
Being UHT is the bigger problem. But cream being cream does not actually need to be homogonized.
It makes great cheese!! ;D
Quote from: Al Lewis on November 23, 2017, 07:22:20 AM
It makes great cheese!! ;D
I have used UHT cream mixed with good quality milk and have had no problems so I would agree. But in general UHT is more of a problem than being homogonized.
Quote from: Duntov on November 22, 2017, 10:26:08 PM
How do you know that is not UHT cream? It just says pasteurized on the label.
Because they sell a UHT cream in the red container right next to it. They sell both.
Quote from: Al Lewis on November 23, 2017, 06:20:48 PM
Quote from: Duntov on November 22, 2017, 10:26:08 PM
How do you know that is not UHT cream? It just says pasteurized on the label.
Because they sell a UHT cream in the red container right next to it. They sell both.
I use this same cream as Al says they sell both right next to each other and it makes great cheese 8)
Thanks for interesting replies.
I understand the problem of UHT pasteurization or even HTSH at too high temperature on curd formation as high temperature denature proteins, especially whey proteins that then will interact with caseins and impede a good curd formation. But homogeneization causes problem of its own, especially on texture and meltability of semi-ferm and ferm cheeses. So, since I already found HTST homogenized milk that form good curd, I was trying to find if I can improve the texture and meltability of certain cheeses. My last 8 months cheddar melt pretty well (a lot of proteolysis) and have a nice texture but meltability of my younger cheese, like my 2 1/2 months tomme could be improve. I think it could also have a positive effect on the texture of my full fat tomme. Also, before spending money on milk to make cheeses made especially for melting, like 16L of milk for raclette or for reblochon, I want to make sure that I'm working with the best milk combination possible.
From Duntov:
QuoteI have used UHT cream mixed with good quality milk and have had no problems so I would agree.
have you noticed any change in the texture or meltability of your cheese with this combination ?
I'll probably make a test soon. I'll keep you posted. :)
Quote from: Al Lewis on November 23, 2017, 06:20:48 PM
Because they sell a UHT cream in the red container right next to it. They sell both.
I was responding to stephmtl222 Al, the post just before mine. Horizon Nature only shows one cream product.
I have not been able to find any Federal Labeling law that requires a ultra pasteurized milk product to be labeled as such. In fact I know for sure that my local milk (Publix) uses standard pasteurization in their 1 gallon milk sizes but UHT in their quart sizes but neither says UHT. So just because something doesn't say UHT doesn't mean it is not.
As a side note, any cream with additives (maybe to create a 'heavy' version) is considered a Class II product and is required to be UHT processed. A milk product without additives is a Class I and does not require UHT.
The results are in ! :)
So I made a test to compare homogenized 3.25% fat microfiltrated (and HTST pasteurized) milk (HM) with skimmed (0% fat) microfiltrated (and HTST pasteurized) + cream to get to 3.25% fat (S+C), same brand. I added 180ml of cream (without additives) to the skim milk.
I made mozzarella (direct acidification) with each. I adjusted the pH of both to ~5.6 with citric acid.
Here are some observations:
- HM milk is white, S+C milk is yellowish
- I got a very firm curd with the S+C milk, one of the best curd in a long time. I got a very soft, flimsy curd with HM milk, one of the worst curd I got with this milk. I have made many very nice mozz with this milk. Don't really know what happened this time. This have had an impact on the final mozz.
- A lot of fat was lost in the S+C whey. Almost none in HM milk. I saw somewhere that the cream should be warmed before adding it. Maybe this can make a difference.
- Yield was substantially less with S+C. I planed to weight both cheese batches but realized that I forgot to weight it after I started tasting it. :-[ The important lost of fat in the whey is probably to main cause of this low yield.
- The texture of the S+C was a lot fermer than with HM. The bad HM curd can be a factor since the texture was less firm, more brittle than usual
- S+C was a lot more tasty. HM was more bland, closer to milk. HM was white, S+C was yellowish.
- Both mozz soften and kind of melted. But the HM mostly collapsed more than melted. The texture of the melted HM didn't look like what we get with a good melting cheese. Very different, lumpy, and didn't form strings. Although part of this texture can be attributable to this particular batch of HM with bad curd, I observed this kind of softening without really melting in previous mozz. The S+C melted exactly like what you can expect from a good melting cheese, forming nice strings, fat sweating out.
- A lot of nice browning with S+C. Almost none in HM
Not a perfect experiment but for my part, I am convinced that H+C is a lot better. The only main problem is the yield. I'll try to find solution and probably won't use HM anymore.
Although I have made very nice cheeses with HM milk in the past, I realized that homogenization has an even more important impact on cheesemaking than I though. It will be difficult to go back to HM after that. :-\
That's a lot of investigation. AC4U!
There are still too many variables to know for sure which factors came into play most, especially since you had a different outcome with the HM than you usually do--but the bottom line is this: If you like the taste, texture, "meltability," etc of the cream added version you have an answer that you can move forward with.
Congrats
You are one harsh peer reviewer ! :D
I should add that I have made many mozz with this milk and some others and overall, despite the problem with this batch, its behavior (absence of browning, no string formation, softening without really melting) is very similar to what I have observed before. I have never seen a mozz batch that come close to the behavior of this S+C batch. I don't really see what variable could allow to get to this result with HM. Moreover, this fits with I have read on effect of homogenization on melting.
But maybe there is something else? I would be very interested to read suggestions on what other variables could lead to the results observed with S+C but with HM.
PS: I have been to Orosi Valley a couple of years ago. Very nice ! :) I am curious to know how it is to make cheese in Costa Rica !
Haha....not trying to be harsh. In fact, I'm impressed--that's why I gave you a cheese. :)
I'm happy you've found a method that you like and that has performed better for you than previous methods.
My point about unknown variables is just that, as you said: "[size=78%]I got a very soft, flimsy curd with HM milk, one of the worst curd I got with this milk. I have made many very nice mozz with this milk. Don't really know what happened this time." [/size][/size]shows that something happened that was different and unidentified--some negative fluke. Maybe the S+C will perform the same way next time, or maybe it had a "positive fluke" this time. The good news is that to know for sure, you get to make lots more cheese--what could be better than that? LOL[size=78%]
[/size]In Costa Rica, we have access to lots of fresh, raw milk. That's the good news. [size=78%]
[/size]The not so good news is that 1) the only culture available here is Flora Danica, so I have to import other cultures, and 2) the Ticos are afraid to try "old cheese" because "that's dangerous." (They only know queso fresco--no aged cheeses.)[size=78%]
Sweet little pictorial. Food for thought. I may try the skim milk + cream to see what it does in my cheese making. Certainly worth a cheese. 8)
Quote from: GortKlaatu on November 26, 2017, 03:22:39 AM
the Ticos are afraid to try "old cheese" because "that's dangerous." (They only know queso fresco--no aged cheeses.)
Really? Wow, what a tremendous loss for their quality of cuisine and gustatory pleasure. :(
-Boofer-
Yeah, the Mexicans are pretty much the same. I have a lot of Mexican friends and all they want to use is fresco cotija.
Wow stephmtl222 you did an awesome job at documenting with pictures and narratives. Thank you! You answered many of my questions about using HM and SM+C. I'm going to have to give the SM+C a try in some provolone this week. I'm so looking forward to it.
Quote from: feather on July 29, 2018, 08:32:51 PM
Wow stephmtl222 you did an awesome job at documenting with pictures and narratives. Thank you! You answered many of my questions about using HM and SM+C. I'm going to have to give the SM+C a try in some provolone this week. I'm so looking forward to it.
My skim milk was P&H and my cream was P&H and had the additive carageenan (Sp?) so I was not optimistic.
I used 3.5 gallons S + 6 cups of cream to make traditional provolone.
It was MAGIC I tell you, it made a different kind of curd than I'm used to (with whole P&H milk), then it stretched beautifully. The curds did not shatter at all, they became almost rubbery, and were rounded (through shrinkage), it was wonderful. I don't think I'll be able to go back to whole milk P&H after this experience. Thank you. I've got some beautiful smooth shiny stretched provolone!
On one occasion, I was able to acquire some unhomogenized, low-heat slow pasteurized heavy cream for a cheese. It cost me almost 8 bucks a pint, but it was well worth it. I used a few ounces for the cheese, and the rest on some fresh peaches from the tree in my yard.
And now you understand why we have our own milk source. Basically (not counting my time, which has not meaningful calculable value here) my milk costs me about $0.50/gallon
I think I will give this a try , my first year or so of making cheese I used raw and the curd was a delight to work with , but at $15 a gallon it became to much as I can get non raw organic for less than half of that .
I think I will try with adding raw cream in to the skim milk and see what the curd is like
It will be a nice experiment but I suspect that the cost might end up creeping back up close to the cost of raw again .
And there was nothing that compares to the subtle flavors of raw milk cheese . I still daydream about the grassy ,hay , countryside fragrance of my past cheeses .
Sorry for the slight hijack, but GortKlaatu, how much work are the goats and about how much land do you need? I live in the country side in Japan and eventually I'm hoping to settle down a bit and buy a piece of land to retire on. I could see myself looking after a couple of goats if it's not a full time job...
Quote from: Gregore on August 04, 2018, 12:28:17 PM
I think I will give this a try , my first year or so of making cheese I used raw and the curd was a delight to work with , but at $15 a gallon it became to much as I can get non raw organic for less than half of that .
I think I will try with adding raw cream in to the skim milk and see what the curd is like
It will be a nice experiment but I suspect that the cost might end up creeping back up close to the cost of raw again .
And there was nothing that compares to the subtle flavors of raw milk cheese . I still daydream about the grassy ,hay , countryside fragrance of my past cheeses .
Gregore, that description makes me want to have my own raw milk source. Oh wait......I dooooooooooooo!
Lucky me.
Quote from: mikekchar on August 05, 2018, 12:46:12 AM
Sorry for the slight hijack, but GortKlaatu, how much work are the goats and about how much land do you need? I live in the country side in Japan and eventually I'm hoping to settle down a bit and buy a piece of land to retire on. I could see myself looking after a couple of goats if it's not a full time job...
Mike
I suppose that all depends on your description of what "much work" would be.
I don't think it's too bad at all....certainly worth the benefits. (I just made 9 Cheese Mac N Cheese-- tidbits from various cheeses I make all from the goat milk. I have 27 cheeses in the cave now. (And the Mac N Cheese is in the oven. LOL). Also just froze homemade goat milk ice cream....tonights flavor...Cherry Cheesecake.
IF you bring all the grass to the goats you don't have to have a large area. You need at LEAST two female goats....they can not be kept alone....they are very social animals and will not do well alone. Plus you need access to a buck (or artificial insemination) But you do NOT want the buck close to the does or the milk with taste very very barnyard and goaty. My girls' milk is so sweet and creamy--partly due to the breed, partly due to their diet, and partly due to the fact that there is no buck anywhere nearby. (We go for conjugal visits to the next farm over when the time is right.)
Basically, you have to devote a regular and set time to milk every morning. You can milk twice daily and get more milk, but it is not double the amount and it is a killer having to always be home to milk at the same time every evening. So I don't advise it. They need to be fed and but in their individual corrals at night (which need to be about 6x6 feet minimum) after being loose to play all day.
I spend about 30-40 minutes every morning feeding and milking and checking everyone out. Less when there is only one or two milking. More when there are three or four. Then I spend only about 10 minutes in the evening.
Of course, you have to figure out what to do with the babies when they arrive....they are so cute you'll never want to give them up, but if you don't you'll end up with 20-30 goats before you know it. LOL
I started with two does. I kept chosen doelings until I now have four. The bucklings and other doelings I sell. I try to keep two milking and two resting/pregnant. (But that can be a feat since their timing isn't always what mine is.)
When I have two milking I get about 2-3 gallons of milk a day depending on where they are in the lactation cycle....you can imagine when there are more.
There's so much more to tell, but maybe that will give you a quick initial idea.
One more thing: There's an old saying that is very true about the fencing, corral etc you'll need for them. "If it will hold water, it MIGHT hold a goat."
Thanks! That sounds completely doable for my lifestyle. Land is not so expensive here so when we finally buy a house it will be something I will keep in mind. I'll do some research in the meantime. Work has me travelling occasionally at the moment (I'm a remote developer), so we've been living in an apartment. Eventually I'm going to root myself to the spot, though. I'm a serious homebody :-) Convincing the wife may be trickier, though :-)
I came across this 1994 paper that came to the same conclusion as me. I was just 24 years late... :)