Last week I made my first rennet cheese at home (although I've made others with my dad at his place). The recipe uses MA4001 but only allows 15 minutes ripening time. It took quite a long time to get a clean break and I proceeded even though it was a bit sloppy. I'm making the same recipe today but made a few changes. First, I added the culture at 27 C and then raised the temp over 12 minutes to 32 C. At that point I waited 15 minutes and continued as normal (adding CaCl, waiting 5 min then adding the rennet). One major change I did was dissolving the CaCl and rennet in cold milk on the theory that my dechorinated water may not have been dechlorinated. This time I measure the flocc time: 35 minutes! It was pretty obvious, too. One minute it looks just like milk, the next, when I put my temperature probe in, I could see that it was starting to congeal.
Last time when I made my cheese it turned out very well. I had no problems with curds shattering and my yield was very good. The cheese was delicious. So there is no problem per se. I'm just a bit curious if others think that this flocc time is strange. I'm just about to cut the curds for this cheese now and things seem to be going just as before. No real differences at all. My only thought is that my milk might be really strongly buffered and it's just taking a really long time to acidify. Unfortunately I don't have a pH meter :-(
Any thoughts?
Again replying to my own post. I was rereading Mastering Artisan Cheesemaking to see if I could get some clues and I noticed that she mentions that excess calcium chloride can *slow* rennet set. Interestingly, I used more CaCl2 the second time than the first and the flocc time was slower the second time. So, I maybe there is sufficient calcium in my milk already (it's vat pasteurised at 63 C) Next make (which I hope is Wednesday) I'll cut the CaCl2 to maybe a quarter and see how it goes.
Edit: Just thinking this through a bit and more likely is that the CaCl2 I have is at a higher concentration than Caldwell has. CaCl2 has a solubility of 64g per 100ml at 10C. Unfortunately the label doesn't say anything about the strength :-( However, when I put some in brine I was making, the brine became slightly bitter, so this is probably what the problem is.
Edit 2: Yep. That's it. Went to the vendor site and they say the concentration is 50%.
Hey Mike -
Are you using DVI or some sort of bulk or mother starter? I used to have extremely long drops in pH due to using dry culture, and had to play with that because I make alpine cheeses exclusively, and with tommes, I had to manage a slow acid curve while trying to keep floc times reasonable (I use a multplier, not a clean break method).
I can't find more than a few logs as it's been many years away for me, but I seem to recall some at times ridiculous periods to any pH drop and as well, floc times - easily well over an hour or more. I just tried to tweak the culture for change in pH (also, it can be almost nothing, as they are replicating, then a really quick drop as they go to work), and to get the floc time to within a 12-15 min. window.
Are you certain of the freshness of your rennet? Using cold water? Sprinkling it in quickly once you've diluted it?
Just saw your edit on the CaCl concentration. I'm used to around 30-33%. Unfortunately I think linuxboy, Francois, not sure on Sailor aren't around any longer as they were my science gurus but I don't know why free calcium would have an inverse effect like that on floc time (I have her book, though, and am going to see). Interesting.
Anyway, the short thought is to make sure you're getting acid production, make sure you're using fresh rennet, diluted in cold water (I used to put my beaker of dilution water in the freezer, while doing other things), and adding the rennet as quickly as possible.
Hope this was helpful. Sorry for the length.
Thanks for the thoughts! :-) Yest, I'm using a DVI culture. I'm not really sure of anything yet because both the culture and rennet were purchased recently. Caldwell has an interesting flocc test in her book where you task 60 ml of milk and 1.2 m of rennet (of single strength rennet -- I have double strength, so it should be 0.6 ml). The idea is that you should get flocculation in less than 20 seconds. If you don't, then you add calcium chloride to some new milk and try again. This should help me determine what's causing the problem. If I get good flocc times with just the milk, then I don't need calcium chloride. If not and I get good flocc times with the calcium chloride, I'll try a new make with the correct amount of calcium chloride. If that doesn't work, then it's probably the pH (or some other unknown factor). If I can't get good flocc times with either, then it's the rennet. Perhaps it is not double strength as advertised. I'll try doubling it up. I think somewhere in those possibilities I should be able to figure it out :-).
I'm going to give it a try tomorrow if I can squeak it in with work. At the very least, if I can't figure it out, it isn't a disaster as I seem to be making good cheese anyway...
OK. Very interesting results and I think it points in a direction that makes sense (at least to me). First, I'll describe the experiment because I didn't have the details correct previously.
Ingredients:
- 6 drops double strength rennet (0.3 ml)
- 10 ml cool water (with a drop of milk in it to counteract the chlorine present)
- 30 ml milk at 33 C (in practice I ended up with 30 C)
- 0, 1, or 3 drops of Calcium Chloride (CaCl2)
I heated the milk in the microwave in earthenware sake cups. Note: My microwave heated the milk from top down, so the top can get to 40 C while the bottom is still at 22 C. It took me a while to get the hang of it. In the end, I went with 6 seconds and it worked out well. I transferred the milk to a brandy glass. I put 6 drops of double strength rennet in the water (in a sake cup), swirled it around end then dumped it into the brandy glass. (At that point the temp of the milk had fallen to 30C). I then swirled the glass watching for it to flocculate (it is very obvious -- you get lots of white specs coming out of solution). I timed how long that took.
With no CaCl2, it took more than 2 minutes to flocc (i.e. I gave up). Next I tried again, putting 1 drop of CaCl in the brandy glass before adding the milk and then swirling it around. It took 1 minute 38 seconds to flocculate. Next I tried again, putting 3 drops of CaCl in the brandy glass. It took 12 seconds to flocculate.
This tells me that my milk is very calcium deficient and I need to add more CaCl. I'm going to *try* to do a make on Wednesday (if I can get milk -- I bought the last litre the store had today). I will write here again to report any progress (if there is some).
Very interesting. First hand tests are always helpful, as milk can vary so much from place to place. I haven't done any testing in a long time, simply because I have procedures that seem to work pretty consistently with the milk I can get - and the milk is "standardized" store bought, so doesn't vary much.
Yep, agreed, Andy. MIke, I think it's awesome you're following through on your testing like this. I appreciate your approach and would love to hear more as you continue.
Sorry for the late followup! I couldn't get any more milk and work became busy, so I wasn't able to do anything. However, I had 800ml of milk left from my flocc tests, so I decided to make up a *very* small batch today. I scaled down my original recipe by 4 (from 4 litres) and doubled the calcium chloride. This means that I have about +20% rennet and double the calcium chloride. The culture... um... I tried my best to scale it, but I put in 2 skewer tips which I think is probably the most imprecise measure ever :-)
I'm currently waiting for the rennet to set and things are promising. I didn't quite recognise the flocc. Whereas before I could see some gelling around where I moved my temperature probe, this time it just kind of coated the probe at around 15 minutes (possibly a minute or two before). Since the milk is kind of old, I thought it was cream. But at about 25 minutes it was gelled enough to cut. Just now I checked it (40 minutes) and it's a pretty clean break. I figure the flocc time was pretty close to 15 minutes, so I'll leave it until 52 minutes (3.5 x flocc = total time).
So general success! I'm making cheese curds out of this (too small to press, even for me!) I'll post later today for general taste. I'm a bit worried about possible bitterness from the calcium chloride. We'll see.
Edit: All done! They taste great. I little bit low in acid. I should have let them ripen a bit longer after cheddaring (and I only cheddared for 45 min as well). First time I've done cheese curds. No problem with bitterness that I can detect. I've dry salted them and I'll try them in a day or so. On another note, I got strangely high yield again. 112g of cheese from 803g of milk. That gives me a 12.4% yield. However, I cut the curds *very* small (too small, really) and added a 45 minute cheddaring. No pressing, though, which might account for it. Still, I think this gives me some confidence to say that the protein/fat content of the batch I had is a bit higher than what they published.
New update. The above conclusions were WRONG >:D
It just didn't sit well with me that the milk could be *that* low in calcium. It seems like I was needing more calcium than would be there in the first place. What could be going wrong. And then it hit me. I was using the same measuring spoon for the calcium chloride as the rennet and I was either rinsing it with tap water or not rinsing it at all (not sure which). I think whatever remained in the teaspoon played havoc on my rennet. I decided to try my normal method again using reasonable levels of calcium chloride and -- voila! Normal floc times (somewhere between 10 and fifteen minutes -- I didn't pay close attention). Clean break at 45 minutes as expected.
Mystery solved (it's usually something simple :-P)
Ah, the eternal problem of uncontrolled variables. I have a bad habit of trying to make half a dozen changes all at once, and then I can't tell which one(s) actually made any difference!
Sigh... Clearly something environmental... Today I'm 29 minutes and counting... :-P
Edit: Flocc achieved at 31 minutes (using floating cup test this time, but verified with my "dipping the probe in the milk" method to see that it's basically the same). This time the only thing I can think is that the rennet sat in the water for about 1-2 minutes before I added it to the milk. I'm thinking it's got to be something about that. Perhaps my attempts at dechlorination aren't working, or there is some residue in the cups from something...
Mike, it does sound like there may be something interfering with the rennet, and the water or such is a good place to start. Can you get distilled water? Also, what regimen do you use to sanitize your equipment - could there be some residue there, as well as / instead of the cup?
I've read somewhere that a few drops of milk added to the water before adding the rennet can ensure the chlorine is de-activated - that's a very fuzzy memory, so not sure I trust it. Maybe someone else can verify or dispute ...
I have heard that as well. I use iodophor for cleaning my plastic equipment and boiling for the metal equipment. Crucially the cups and measuring spoons get the iodophor treatment (with rinsing). I'm guessing that it's something to do with residual iodine or chlorine from the rinse water. I boil and cool tap water for dilution and add a few drops of milk. Sodium metabisulphate will also dechlorinate water (and I have some), but I'm worried that it might also interfere with the rennet. I'll try to find distilled water, but the problem is that I don't know what it's called in Japanese. :-) My cheese is turning out well, so I can't really complain -- it's lucky that the cheese I want to make is tolerant of the long set times. It would be nice to fix this, though...
Ah, sounds like you're on to something. I confess that I just boil/steam the plastic equipment as well as the metal - but I boil any cheesecloths that I will be using at the same time, and make sure they are on the bottom, so that they are less likely to melt by being in direct contact. Measurement with a thermometer indicates that with a couple of inches of water in the bottom at a good boil, and a lid or other mechanism to hold the steam in, the temperature in the steam is well above what is needed for sterilizing. At least, it has worked for me for about 110 cheeses made now ... :)
That is a brilliant idea! Thank you :-) I'm going to give that a try.
Let us know if / how it works!
Quote from: awakephd on March 12, 2019, 06:16:57 PM
Ah, sounds like you're on to something. I confess that I just boil/steam the plastic equipment as well as the metal - but I boil any cheesecloths that I will be using at the same time, and make sure they are on the bottom, so that they are less likely to melt by being in direct contact. Measurement with a thermometer indicates that with a couple of inches of water in the bottom at a good boil, and a lid or other mechanism to hold the steam in, the temperature in the steam is well above what is needed for sterilizing. At least, it has worked for me for about 110 cheeses made now ... :)
So, to make sure I am understanding correctly, you put a few inches of boiling water in the bottom of your cheese vat/pot and then throw everything else inside and shut the lid? Also, how long do you let it steam for?
My kitchen isn't super pristenely clean, so I always sanitize with diluted bleach, which seems to work but I'm always paranoid about any bleach residue that doesn't rinse off affecting the flavor of my cheese.
So, here's my procedure. First I make sure my cheese pot is clean (no residues or any such that might have slipped by in the last cleaning), and rinse it out with filtered water. (I have a filter at my kitchen sink to supply filtered, chlorine-free water - I use this throughout the process, but one could use distilled water instead.) I put in the utensils for the first stage of cheese making - measuring spoons, skimmer/spoon, ladle, tongs (useful for fishing things out that get dropped in, as well as later in the process), cutter, etc. The vertical cutter is just a very large cake spatula; the blade is in the pot, but the handle extends out. I put the thermometer in as deep as possible, with the head still outside. I add 2-3" of filtered water, put on the lid (it doesn't fit fully due to the thermometer and cutter sticking out, but sits as flat as possible), and set it on the stove on high. Once it comes to a full boil, with lots of steam, I turn it down a bit - enough to keep a full boil, but not wasting energy - and set a timer for 10 minutes.
In the meantime, once the pot is on the stove, I fill the sink with hot water and put the jugs of milk in to start warming. Depending on the amount of milk and the heat of the water, the milk usually reaches 70-80°F during this time, leaving very little more to do to get it warmed up to ripening temperature. Note that my hot water is not super hot, so if yours is, you may need to experiment with an appropriate temperature if you want to use this step.
Also in the meantime, I fill a small pot with filtered water and put it on the stove to bring it to boiling - this will be used for sanitizing anything that has been used, but needs to be used again. I keep this pot just at the simmer.
Also in the meantime, I use a bleach solution in a spray bottle to spray down the counter where I will keep the utensils during the process. After letting that sit for a few minutes, I wipe it dry with a paper towel - I do not rinse it, just wipe it dry. It is important to note that this is not straight bleach; according to the label on the bleach bottle, for sanitizing you use a solution that is actually quite dilute. (I'm guessing that after drying the counter, any chlorine residue essentially gasses off.) On this sterilized counter, I lay out a fresh, clean kitchen towel. The various utensils will rest on this. This begs the question of whether the towel is sanitary, and/or whether, with the towel in the middle, it matters that I have sanitized the counter. I don't know the answers, but I've been doing it this way for 110+ cheeses with no problems, so ... it ain't broke, I ain't fixin' it!
ALSO in the meantime (lots going on in this meantime!), I put ~1/4 cup of filtered water into each of two or three cups and put them in the microwave. I run the microwave on high for about 3 minutes so that the water is boiling. I use one of these to dissolve the CaCl crystals that I use to add CaCl to the milk; I put the others in the fridge to cool. They will be used for diluting annatto, rennet, etc. before they are added.
Whew! The timer has gone off, so now I empty the boiling water out of the pot and lay out my utensils on the towel, making sure that measuring spoons are dry so that the residual heat can thoroughly dry them before I use them to measure cultures. I pour my milk into the pot and put it on the stove - I have found that with my stove, I can use direct heat, carefully chosen, with equal or better results compared to using the water bath that I used to use. I add in the CaCl solution and stir it in, and gently heat the milk up to the final ripening temperature. I add the cultures, wait 5 minutes for them to melt it, then stir the cultures in well. At this point I put the lid on and let it ripen for whatever time is called for; in the meantime, I wash the skimmer/spoon or anything else that will be reused, rinsing thoroughly including a final rinse with filtered water, and put it/them in the small pot to sanitize.
When the cheesemaking is within about 30 minutes of being ready to drain the curds, I do the second stage of sanitizing. I have another large pot (though not as large as my cheesemaking pot) that I make sure is thoroughly clean and rinsed, and rinsed with filtered water. I put the cheesecloths that I will use in the bottom of this pot, and on top of that put the plastic mesh, mold(s), follower, etc. I add 3" or so of water and put this on the stove, bringing it to a boil. Over the top I drape my colander - it is way too big to fit into any pot, so I let the steam sanitize it. I have to rotate it every few minutes to be sure all of it has had a chance to steam.
A few minutes before I am ready to use all of this equipment, I use the sanitized tongs to fish out all the plastic pieces and lay them on the towel. I pour out as much water as I can, then use the tongs to squeeze the cheesecloths to expel as much more water as possible. I lay the colander over top of the towel, and use the tongs to pull out and drape the cheesecloths so that they can cool a bit. (Alternately, I may set the colander up in the sink for draining, and drape the cheesecloths there.) It is very important to spread the cloth out at least a little - hard to do with the tongs, but as much as possible - and give a couple of minutes; otherwise they will stay way too hot to handle. Once they are cool enough, I squeeze out any excess water (be careful - may still be very hot water inside the cooler exterior!). Whatever cloth will be involved in draining gets set up in the colander; others get set on the towel.
Whew! It sounds like a lot of work when I describe it like this, but really it is all very simple, and takes very little time. A few additional notes. One is that, except for the molds, follower, plastic mesh, and cheesecloth, all of my equipment and utensils are good-quality stainless steel. As long as the plastic is not resting directly against the bottom of the pot, the plastic seems to hold up just fine with the heat sanitizing. The second note is that I wash and rinse my hands thoroughly throughout the process - any time I've been away to do anything else and come back, I wash, rinse, and dry before picking up any utensils. Finally, though I use bleach to sterilize the counter, neither the cheese nor the utensils actually contact that counter - so no worries about any bleach flavor getting into the cheese.
I make absolutely no claims that any of this is the right way to do it! This is just the way I have done it, for many years now, and it has worked for me. If you adopt any of this, let us know if it does or does not work for you.
Thanks for that Andy. That's very helpful indeed to a newbie like I am!
Thank you! I'll give that a shot next time!
Thanks to you both - again, YMMV, but it has worked well for me!
I tried your boil method and it worked very well. It's much more convenient than iodophor. I'm still using iodophor for the mould, though, as I can't get everything in my canning pot at the same time (and that side of things is working for me).
I also made another change to my routine. I got some "Pure natural water from Mount Fuji" bottled water and used that instead of my tap water for dilution. My recipe today was a bit different (following a variant of iratherfly's reblochon recipe). So I had a ripening time of 55 minutes at 35 C and renneting at 34 C, so the pH is going to be lower and the temperature higher than my normal 31 C. Got a flocc time of 13 minutes today... which is just about bang on what iratherfly estimates, but I can't quite understand why it isn't faster. Anyway, things seem to be progressing as one would expect, so no complaints. Hopefully that's put an end to the sluggish rennet story for me.
A cheese for your help awakephd!
Thank you! Glad it helped. Mt. Fuji water, huh ... I can't seem to find that here in rural North Carolina. :)
So... 4 months later and I finally realised what my *actual* problem was. Even after I improved my process, I found that I needed more rennet than most recipes reported and I just figured my rennet was not in good shape. In reality, all this time I thought it was double strength rennet. It's single strength. It's written on the label :-P So when things were not working well, I was using about half of the rennet I should have been.
Oh, I hate it when I realize that the answer has been right in front of me the whole time - amazing how we can not see something that is right there!!
Well, Mike, awhile back I *accidentally* put twice as much culture in my cream cheese as I should have, and some of us speculated what might happen because of that, but it turned out it didn't make a huge difference in the outcome.
Now, thanks to your experiences with using half the recommended amount of rennet, we know what the outcome is! Very long flocc times! But yet with successful results. Good to know.
BTW, someone awhile back posted that way too much rennet was accidentally added to their cheese make, and preliminary results were that things appeared normal. I guess the take home message is maybe we don't need to be always exactly precise in cheesemaking and things may still turn out well.
I'm just glad you finally got to the bottom of the flocc time mystery!
I do think there is room for variation, within some limits. After all, if one is using raw milk, it will be changing over the course of the year, and it will be different depending on where the cows have grazed / what they have eaten. Caldwell's book talks about how to adjust "on the fly" when things don't turn out quite as expected - very helpful.
Iodophor might be the problem. I was told to avoid it being used on our milking equipments, let alone cheesemaking equipments. :)