I have successfully managed to make a few batches of camembert in the past but the last two batches have both gone wrong for some reason (the second is not confirmed as a failure yet, but is following the same pattern as the first so I don't have much hope).
The problem is that after a week in the wine fridge at 8 degrees C the outside of the cheese starts to go slimy just as the white mould starts to appear. With the first failed batch, it became increasingly difficult to turn the cheeses as the sides in particular we becoming very soft and wet. I let that batch mature for a month, by which time it was fully covered with white mould (but only just). When I cut into one, it was liquid around the edges (which is quite normal). The difference was that it tasted very bitter - not edible at all - and the solid center was clumpy.
I have been using the camembert recipe in 200 Easy Homemade Cheeses.
For the first batch, I used:
4L of unhomogenised milk
1/16 tsp of flora danica
Scant 1/32 tsp of P. Candidum
1/2 of 1/64 tsp of Geo. Candidum
(All the cultures are CHR Hansen)
0.6 mls of calf rennet (280 IMCU)
2mls CaCl
Also 2 tsps of cheese salt divided between the 4 cheeses after they come out of the molds.
Normally I would use a scant 1/8 tsp of flora danica, but I reduced it for that batch because I have been having what I think might be over-acidification problems with other cheeses. For the second batch (the one currently maturing), I returned to the scant 1/8 tsp of flora danica and increased the rennet to 1ml (floc. time was 12.5 mins - I'm just starting to use floc. too so don't have the numbers for the first failed batch).
I made the second batch almost 2 weeks ago and it was pretty dry to the touch for the first week or so. After being in the cave for a week the outsides have started going soft and slimy. I am thinking it is going the same way as the previous batch.
Any ideas what has gone wrong?
I don't know the answer to your question, but 2 ml of CaCl2 seems like a lot to me. I think that's about double what I would use in that recipe. The original amount of rennet also sounds right to me. Jim Wallace (my usual sanity check) seems to suggest aiming for an 18 minute flocc time with a massive 6x multiplier (90 minute total rest). You don't say how long you coagulated for, but the faster flocc time might have an issue (I can't really imagine that you can set up harder than a 6x multipler, though... No experience in that, so take my words with a grain of salt!)
My *guess* is that you are retaining a bit too much moisture. The extra CaCl2 may be responsible for some of the bitterness. Slimy doesn't sound wrong to me for 1 week with a geo covering in a high moisture cheese (never done a cam, but I've done a few high moisture ones and they all go slimy on me). Is the PC properly kicking in? I would guess after the first 5 days or so, that you'll get mostly geo, but then it will start to get a a fluffier white covering form the geo. I wonder if it's actually picking up some b.linens instead. How does it smell? You may have too much salt... But I'm really guessing here.
Edit: Duh.. you have pics :-) Looks like the PC is kicking in and no sign of b.linens...
Hi Mike,
Thanks for your thoughts.
The CaCl I use recommends 0.5mls per litre (Mad millies brand) and it is the same amount I have added since I started making camembert a few years ago and only recently have I had problems.
I used a 6x multiplier for the current batch so the total coagulation time was 1 hour 15 mins which is less than the 1hr 30mins in the recipe. I made a note to reduce the rennet next time to try to get closer to a 15min flocc time.
The PC is starting to kick in now, but for more than a week there was nothing. Previously when I have used both PC and geo, there has been more sign of the geo earlier from memory.
I will have to get back to you on any smells. It does have a smell that I don't associate with camembert but I can't think how to describe it and I am at work at the moment.
Judging by the color of your cheese (unless it's the lighting) you have some high quality grass fed milk there. The grass fed milk could be causing your problem though. Have you been pasturizing the milk before you start the cheese making? If not the milk could be carrying in a bit of natural Flora that is competing with the Geo. Possibly switch milk for the next batch and see if the flavor and aging process changes?
Thanks.
I don't think the lighting has exaggerated the colour too much. I took the pictures during the day time. I use store-bought milk that is pasteurised but not homogenised. I live in New Zealand and as far as I am aware, most of the milk produced and sold here is grass-fed. If the current batch turns out the same as the previous failure, I will look into switching brands to see if that makes a difference.
So I can best describe the smell as sour. There are some faint camembert notes but overall it is a sour or tart smell.
The batch currently aging appears to be expelling liquid at the moment. Not a great amount but there are a few drops on the bottom of the container each day. Every time I turn the cheeses the side facing down is wet and the sides are damp. I have been patting them dry with a paper towel (otherwise I can't get enough grip to turn them over). The PC is slowly taking over.
So far it is progressing exactly the same as the previous batch that ended up being inedible. By the time the PC fully covered the cheese, the liquid being expelled got trapped under the skin caused the bitter flavour I think. So, I guess I need to figure out what is causing the liquid to start being expelled after a week of aging.
It is maybe due to poor draining that resulted wet surface. The mould will not grow on wet surface and the whey that is trapped inside acidify the cheese, so this might make your cheese had a crumbly texture. Also because there is no/minimal mould growth, the PH stayed low as white mould raise the PH from the outside in. This might bore some people, but I have to say again that you will get better draining if you rennet at the correct PH and drain at the correct PH. I used to have this problem when I was just following recipe as a home cheesemaker, which I cannot afford after I made cheese commercially.
So you want to lower that PH before rennet, believe me on this, to get better draining.
Hi Ann,
What you say about pH is interesting and could well be a factor. I have begun recording pH recently but never really know what I am aiming for at any particular point. At what pH would you recommend adding the rennet and draining the cheese?
For softer cheeses I try to rennet at PH 6.3, and ladle at 6.2-6.15.
I cut the curd based on flocc time then I let it be until PH target reached. Check out youtube video of Fen Farm Dairy made their Brie style called Baron Bigod, they use TA targets but you can get the idea of waiting for the correct acidity is key.
I will give that a try. Thanks so much.
I also think that the CaCl2 level sounds a bit high. Gianaclis Caldwell recommends 0.3 ml per L as a maximum.
I am also wondering if the slimy feel might not indicate that your humidity is too high.
I usually keep my Camemberts at 13C for about a week to allow the PC to become established before moving to about 7C.
Hi Andrew,
I remove any built up moisture on the container on a daily basis (and there is not that much most of the time).
I have them at 8C at the moment. After they started to go damp, I increased the temperature to 10C to see if that had an impact. They seemed to get worse so I reduced the temperature again.
If it is the CaCl, what impacts would too much have on other cheeses?
Attached is an updated picture from yesterday. Where there is no mold coverage, the cheese is still quite wet and even where there, beneath the mold it is starting to go liquid. I risk the mold slipping off every time I turn it.
Well, I don't have any experience with Camembert, but I *do* have experience with geo growing on cheese that's too wet -- and that's *exactly* what it does.
Too much CaCl2 can lead to bitterness, but I'm going to guess that this is not your major problem (although it may still be a problem). When I had my cheeses go like that, I *also* got a lot of very harsh bitterness -- to the point where I threw out my reblochon.
I think the key here is that you have to get that moisture off. I'm quite inexperienced, so take this with a grain of salt, but what I would probably do is to get a cloth and rub off all the geo. Get the whole surface dry and the yeast off of it. In the process you will undoubtedly spread it around the surface. When I did that with my latest reblochon, I was rewarded with a very healthy regrowth of geo. After you rub it off, just keep patting the cheese dry every day and hopefully the geo will come back. If it doesn't, then I would spray it with geo/PC to get it restarted (but I would wait a couple of days before I did that).
Thanks Mike.
I will do that tonight and see if I can't salvage it. If it doesn't work, then it is no loss because I think they are on the way to turning out like the last batch at the moment.
I think I will look at my CaCl use in all future cheeses. I am at the point where I am becoming more aware that there are a whole lot more details than most recipes point out so I am steadily getting more technical with what I do. CaCl is one of the few things I have just been following the instructions on the bottle for, but it looks like (as with everything cheese making) there is more to it than that.
This experience has pointed out to me the importance of pH (as noted by Ann), which I think may be one of the problems here. I checked my pH numbers for the past two batches (I didn't record them prior to that) and they were around 6.5-6.4 when I added the rennet suggesting that could be a factor.
Quote from: Jules on August 08, 2019, 01:24:11 AM
If it is the CaCl, what impacts would too much have on other cheeses?
I need to say that my knowledge of the effects of too much CaCl2 is all second hand but I understand that, as others have noted, it will give you a bitter taste. Apparently, although the right amount of CaCl2 reduces the coagulation time, too much will have the opposite effect and will result in a hard curd, What effect this will have on the water content of the curd, I don't know.
Looking at the photos, I am struck by the pink colour of the cheeses, which suggests to me that B Linens is thriving and probably out-competing the PC. That is consistent with a very wet, humid environment. You could leave the lid of the aging container partially open, providing the humidity in your cave is not too high.
A flocculation multiplier of 5-6x seems to be the recommended level for Camemberts. I you keep on having this problem, perhaps it might be worth reducing yours to 5 or 5.5.
I think I may have figured out what the problem is. I decided to make a 2L batch over the weekend to see if hitting the pH levels Ann suggested made any difference. In the process, I discovered that my cultures were preforming very badly because they were past their best by about a year. I have only been using flora danica, geo and PC for camembert recently so that would explain why I have been having this problem.
I have ordered a fresh supply of cultures and will have another go later this week and post the results up here. This has been an insightful learning experience :D
I also learned quite a bit about my pH meter so my measurements should be more accurate from now on. The batch of camembert is probably not camembert anymore as it expelled far too much whey while waiting for the pH to drop, but it might turn out edible.
I am still going to look into the right amount of CaCl (thanks to those who have brought it to my attention here) as it might be a contributing factor to the slight bitterness I have been having in other cheeses.
Andrew, you may have been right that there may have been some b.linens in the previous failed batches. The orange tinge wasn't particularly bright, but it was there. However, I have given up on that batch being edible at all. Tried some on Friday and it was not very pleasant and only getting worse.
Just an update on the latest batches. I am pretty sure now that the previous failures were due to the correct acidity not being reached because the cultures were getting old.
I currently have 2 small batches of camembert aging, made a week apart. The first was made using the old cultures. This one ended up with a very dry curd because I let it sit to acidify after cutting and stirring the curd. It was during this make I realised that the age of the culture was leading to slower acidification than assumed by the recipe. It seems to have turned into a decent looking cheese, even if it is a bit misshapen (which you can't really tell from the first picture).
The second batch was made with a fresh batch of cultures. When I added the rennet the pH was 6.53 and it was 6.51 after cutting and stirring for 5 mins. After 24 hrs draining in the moulds it was down to 4.76. At the moment, it has been aging for about 2 weeks, has a good layer of geo and the P.can is starting to show up (see second picture).
I am going to try one of the misshapen batch this weekend and, with luck, the second will be ready the following week.
Thanks to everyone who responded here. You comments have helped me learn quite a few lessons about acidity in cheese making.
Wow! That geo is amazing! So brainy looking :-) AC4U!