I finally got around to making my Curd knife.
Made from 304 Stainless Steel flatbar. 5/8" X 1/8"
304 Stainless wire.
Basically just bend this by hand and drilled holes.
Tommorrow is "go" time. time to make a batch of Cheddar.
Woo Hoo! Looking good Wayne I can't wait to see it in action!
Woohoo is right! I count 24 US gallons, 91.2 liters, looks like you finally have all ducks in row for your monster 100 quart vat :o. Fingers crossed for you ;D.
PS: Curd knife looks great also.
Questions
- What is the middle horizontal line, a separate woven wire to keep the vertical wires reasonably parallel?
- How do you use it to cut different sized cut curds for different recipes? Just run through milk at an angle to make smaller?
Thanks
The middle wire is for straightness, correct.
The only way to move these wires will be to make a whole new curd knife.
That really is not that expensive. The SS flatbar was only 8 dollars.
the wire was 20 bucks
Cobalt bits, 2.50/ea ( i broke a few)
Oh, and the cuts on my fingers? priceless.
Maybe you could drill a few more holes so you can move the stringer up a tad use the bolts for adjusting the wires?
What are you going to use for a mold on this huge cheese? 11 kgs wow! I don't even have a fridge big enough for that monster!
i have a 10.75 diameter X 11.75in tall mould.
We shall see if it all fits.
Wayne,
That looks really good. Are you going to make something similar for the horizontal cuts too? Maybe you already have made something similar... Either way that is a big curd knife. How did you tie off the bottom ends? Solder?
Ryan
Could you notch the side bars to string horizontal wires so that you are cutting vertical and horizontal at the same time?
Sailor, There was a little discussion on this when I was making my attempt at a curd knife here: https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,890.0.html. (https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,890.0.html.)
Consensus was there would be too much drag in the vat doing both cuts at once and you may just push the whole mass of curd around in circles without actually cutting.
Hope that helps,
Ryan
Quote from: Sailor Con Queso on September 15, 2009, 05:29:46 PM
Could you notch the side bars to string horizontal wires so that you are cutting vertical and horizontal at the same time?
Actually, I ran t he wire from one eyebolt down, then back up to the next eyebolt. So i never had to terminate them.
Ahh...that would make way too much sense! I think maybe we've even discussed that on here way back when. Good job on it. Having a decent knife sure makes life much easier.
Ryan
i have a ton of wire leftover if you need some.
The frame is just hand-bent flatbar from here (http://www.metalsdepot.com/products/stainless2.phtml?page=flat&LimAcc=%20&aident=).
The part number is F51858
An 8ft length of that is ~12 USD
Do you feel that the 1/8" stock is sturdy enough?
Yes, More than enough. Way more.
Does it work and do you like the way it works?
It works beautifully. You can see it being used in the following video. (Skip to 5:01)
Homemade Parmesan (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqT69URib2g#)
That is awesome! 8) What a setup you have there!! Is there a reason you chose that over get a cheese vat?
Where did you get that whisk?
As I read more posts, I find more questions.
Great curd Cutter Wayne, I am knocking it off using a SS yard stick and SS wire we use for our bee nests.
What do you use for milling those large amounts of Curd?
I tried Sailor's Egg Crate idea and made the mill below using those principles and then wove same SS wire.
This works fine for small amounts, but I can see that when I have a 100 or 300 liter batch, it is going to take too long to mill slabs with this.
Is there a mechanical cheddaring mill available for this scale?
Also, my first 2.5Kg Cheddar about ready to vacuum.
If anyone is looking for a small scale curd cutter I use a stainless steel cake rack, it fits my 10 liter pot neatly, cuts horizontally, then vertically and finally push it down from the top. Three swipes & its done. Might be able to get bigger ones in catering shops. I know its not as sharp as wire but if the curd is firm it works.
Lee
Coffee Joe, Linuxboy posted a nice commercial mill in a thread somewhere. I am sure it would be under the cheddar forum. I'll look and see if I can find it. When we mill our 24 gallon batches, it is "all hands on deck". My five oldest kids and my wife and I all brandishing knives. We look like seven samurai trying to mill the curd before it cools. ;D
You mean the manual one I posted, JD? Jaap Jongia, who now posts here, makes that manual one :)
I can't remember but I think that was it. Do you still have the link?
The manual "Curd Mill"in the photo above is a knockoff of Jaap Jongia's with some input from Sailor's egg crate etc and does a great job for a 25 liter batch. Even the double 50 liter batch we managed ok. I'm wondering if there is a small true mill that I could crank or even motorized for when I get to 50Kg+/batch of curds. The ASTA big electric unit is way too big and $5500.
I'm trying to figure out a long term solution to a future problem!
Here (https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,2885.msg23622.html#msg23622) is the thread I was talking about. I want something like the lady in the pic Wayne posted is using. Where do you find that? Isn't that what you are looking for?
Joe, those motorized mills do get rather expensive. Cheapest I've seen one is around $1,500 for an older unit that needed a good cleaning job. Maybe you could find one from a surplus/used dairy supplier like Ullmers?
Farmer's link as posted above is the nuts!
This is what I am looking for as well, now to figure out where to get one!! or the plans
It's a basic hammer mill design in a small form factor using disks instead of hammers. Maybe I can dig up some measurements for you. IMHO, less work to buy a used one.
Is this (http://glengarrycheesemaking.on.ca/8cheesebutteryoghurtmakingequipment.pdf) the one in the pic Linux?
Well done Farmer, now to figure out how to get one to Brazil!!
Here is how our girls do "milling" today.
IIRC the mechanized one I posted was for a bigger model with more disks, larger capacity, and larger HP motor, but they work on the same principles.
Quote from: coffee joe on July 19, 2010, 05:58:53 PM
Here is how our girls do "milling" today.
Looks great Joe. I like the milling "machine". Definitely a step up from my eggcrate.
A couple of comments: Your curds are flattening out like a pancake, so they look really moist to me. If this is a cheddar, they're too moist.
You might consider using the back of a plastic spoon to push the curds through the mill. Faster, easier on the hands, and less direct human contact and contamination. A fancy machine might be faster, but you can mill a lot of curds with that setup.
Quote from: Sailor Con Queso on July 19, 2010, 09:47:49 PM
You might consider using the back of a plastic spoon to push the curds through the mill. Faster, easier on the hands, and less direct human contact and contamination. A fancy machine might be faster, but you can mill a lot of curds with that setup.
Agree with Sailor that those curds should be firmer. Those curds look like they will give you a >40% moisture in the cheese, which is too high for a cheddar.
Also, you could use a thick plastic cutting board cut to size to push the curds through. It's not exactly automated, but you could really get a lot of curd through that manual mill if you could push down uniformly with a follower.
Rolling pin. Back and forth.
During milling, curds are potentially subject to major contamination, so whatever you use to press the curds needs to be super clean and sanitized - spoons, cutting board, rolling pin... and especially hands. A quick soap and water wash is not enough. If you don't have Star San or another sanitizer I would use a bleach solution for hands and rinse well with clean water before coming into contact with the curds. The milling rack itself needs to be sanitized before and after use.
Thanks for the input from all.
The rolling pin, food grade nylon, has already been ordered because sooner or later we were going to have red curds. As to the sanitizing, we boil the mill before and after use and for hands, we use soap water and then alcohol gel. Frequently during the entire make.
What most interests me is the comments on moisture in the curd. What previous step is going wrong? We salt right after milling then right to the press. Not much comes out in terms of whey in pressing. about 18 Kg on an 8"wheel for 20 Min then turn over and go to 70 Kg for 24 hours then turn again, change cloths, for another 24 hours, dry for 3 days before wax or vacuum.
Moisture in the curd has to do with how much rennet you use and the time the curd sets before you cut it combined with the size of the curds. That's the primary indicator and why we tend to advocate using a flocculation method of timing when to cut curd. That's not the only indicator, though. More fat in the milk tends to make for a more moist cheese because the curds release whey slower. A curd with lower pH that's built up more acidity will retain whey better than curd that has a high pH.
And the total solids matter. When you have higher solids (higher proteins, like you find in late lactation milk), the curds can be cut a little bigger, but cooked for less time because it will take less time to reach the final moisture content of the curd. So for example compare mid lactation milk to late lactation. If you cut curd made from mid lactation milk to smaller size, and cook it longer, it will have the same final moisture as curd cut a little bigger but cooked for less time for curd made with late lactation milk. Make sense? It's all about the relative moisture in the curd compared to the solids in the curd when you settle the curd under whey and start draining off the whey to pack your cheddar slabs.
High moisture cheddar isn't terrible, but it's closer to something like a colby in style. It will mature sooner and reach its peak sooner, and not last as long at peak.
To get a more solid curd you can
- Use floc method and lower multiplier (3x is a good number, adjust from there)
- Cut curd to smaller size, cheddar should be about 3/8" cubes
- Cook longer before settling under whey (challenge, because have to hit the whey drain target of 6.0-6.1)
- pre-salt curd at a rate of .5% w/w to help the curd release whey (this is not a common approach)
hope that helps!
Joe - are you doing stirred curd or traditional cheddaring?
Cheddar and most salted curd cheeses are difficult to press and eliminate air spaces so 70 kg (154 pounds) is a little light for an 8" wheel. I consider 5 psi a minimum and 10 psi (or more) the recommended pressing for an aged cheddar depending on how tight you want the body of your cheese to be. On an 8" hoop, you need 275 pounds (124 kg) to achieve just 5.5 psi. You need 503 pounds or 228 kg to press at 10 psi. With 70kg (154 pounds) you are only pressing at 3 psi. That may be why you aren't getting much whey out during pressing. You need to be aggressive with cheddar, so I would also start out with much more than 18 kg. I personally feel that starting with lower weights to avoid "trapping" whey in a cheese is something of a myth. You should not have to press for more than 12 hours.
How does the rest of the world express psi in the metric system??? kg/sq cm ?)
QuoteHow does the rest of the world express psi in the metric system??? kg/sq cm ?)
pascals or kilopascals
1 pascal = 1 newton/sq m
1 Kpa = 1000 N/ sq m
1 psi = about 6.9 Kpa
The U. of Guelph site posts some of their pressures in Kpa.
Saior,
as to units we use bioth psi and Kg/cm², PSI will be just fine. since I've made all recopies in US units except volume
As to the rest of the post, I will be starting from the beginning to review everything. The intent is cheddar, let me get this down, we'll get to colby later.
Coul the fact that I start with Warm Raw Milk and let it cool to 86F make a difference?
We are using recultured mother culture that is over 1 year reculturing every other week.
By coincidence, yesterday's make was the first make using DVI M101 from Cheesemakers, I did like the cut from our mother culture better
REnnet is veggie but I have ordered both animal and CHYMAX M we do have it here
We are going on floc time X3
pH meter waiting for a Ride down from Kirkland!
after cutting the curd, cook for 20 min just barely lifting off the bottom to avoid matting
@ 86F slowly raising temp 2 F every 5 min during another 35 min continue to lift off to avoid matting
@ 100F drain whey -I use a Sifon for most of the whey and pour the mass into cheescloth to drip for 10-15 min,
Slice the slabs, place in the vat @ 100F turn and rearrange every 15 min for 2 hours (8X)
Mill 10mm pieces is about 3/8 and the spaces on our mill
Salt 22 gm salt/10 liter milk
Press 20 min at 18Kg Turn over in mold
70 Kg 24hour remove replace cloth turn over and press again 24 hour
Increase the weight no problem, 300 KG easy, was there felt like I was abusing the cheese!
Quote from: Sailor Con Queso on July 20, 2010, 04:11:33 AM
I personally feel that starting with lower weights to avoid "trapping" whey in a cheese is something of a myth.
Glad to hear you sya that as I have generally found that to be the case too!
Quote@ 86F slowly raising temp 2 F every 5 min during another 35 min continue to lift off to avoid matting
@ 100F drain whey -I use a Sifon for most of the whey and pour the mass into cheescloth to drip for 10-15 min,
I always hold at this temp (102F) for another 45 min or better until the ph is right. Most of the recipes I have seen do this. This is a critical ph point so without a meter, you have to go by the clock and hope for the best. This one ph measurement for me changed my cheese making from frequent failure to consistent success.
I am thinking this could this be the problem with the curd texture? linux or sailor could elaborate I'm sure.
QuoteCoul the fact that I start with Warm Raw Milk and let it cool to 86F make a difference?
It doesn't affect mine. It shouldn't take that long to cool. I mix fresh with cold milk from day before. I usually only drop the temp to 90 before adding culture.
I agree JD. A low acidity (high pH) could certainly contribute to the curd problems.
Joe - Cheddar should be around pH 5.4 at milling. If you do not have a pH meter I would follow JDs advice. He makes a lot of big Cheddars. This is a good case for when a pH meter can really help you understand what's going on.
Every starter culture is different and creates lactic acid at different rates. So, you REALLY can't go by simple time based recipes. You have to know what the starter is doing and how it effects the cheese. In your case, using a propagated culture that is even more important. Over time you are bound to have mutations, contamination and phage activity. If you are not freezing the mother culture, the milk substrate will build up too much acid and start killing off the bacteria. Then from batch to batch you will have inconsistent bacterial activity. You need to develop a strategy and protocol for rotating pure starter cultures back into your production. In another thread, we have been talking about "primer" cultures instead of Mother cultures. A primer is made fresh every time with enough to do whatever size batch. Whereas a Mother culture is a larger volume that can be drawn from multiple times. I like the primer idea because I feel it is easier to maintain the quality of a pure starter culture.
Some relevant information with respect to mechanical openess.
From stuff I read.
Interesting conclusions Wayne. However, I find that smaller curds (1/2") seem to meld better during pressing.
Thanks to all for the input. We seem to have gotten off the topic of cheddar mills and milling. So, as the direction this has taken is important, I'm starting a new thread with my cheddar making questions.
Perhaps this could help? A nice plastic/stainless steel mill. Works very well for the smaller cheese maker.
QuoteIf you do not have a pH meter I would follow JDs advice
I remember reading about this old 1900s (before pH meters were available) heated metal bar technique to check the acidity of curds during cheddaring. I think its called the "Hot Iron Test".
A more convential,fast and easy way to do it is check the whey's acidity.
It requires just a volumetric plastic syringe,clear glass\plastic tube, color indicator and 0.1N NaOH.
There are "wine acid test kits" which can be bought for about 10$ with the entire kit assembled.
You think this would be of use?
Aren't those fat rods just going to mash the curds? Seems like you'd want thinner blades. Is it made specifically for milling curds, or is it a repurposed mill originally designed for another use?
It seems that commerical curd mills are more of equally spaced thin metal knives of sort.
The designed you showed looks more like a small fruit\apple mill.
(http://www.bid-on-equipment.com/uploaded/81000/81162.jpg)
(http://www.smartsgloucestercheese.com/images/sP43.jpg)