I would like to make a Kefalotyri using Cow's milk and Gavin Weber's recipe.... Yes I know it should be made with Sheep or Goat's milk, but that is simply not available where I live.... The recipe seems straightforward enough, but since this is supposed to be a strong, full flavoured cheese, I was wondering if I could/should add some Lipase, and if so, how much for a 9 litre (2.4 gal) batch?....
Since it is supposed to be a hard, dry cheese, I was thinking about using a 2.5 multiple on the Floc. time, does that sound about right?.... If not, your suggestions?....
Also, I plan to purchase a vacuum sealing machine, and I was wondering if that would be a good way to age/store it?.... I was thinking about sampling it at 2-3 months and then sealing up the rest to taste at 6 months and a year.... My cheese cave is at 55 deg. F and 82% RH....
Bob
I had to rewatch the videos to be certain that I was remembering it. I think the recipe is OK, but I suspect that his problems stem entirely from over pressing the cheese (as he often does IMHO). There are a couple of things, though. First, he's ripening at 33 C, which I think is the correct temp (or there about), but with a thermophilic culture at 33 C, a 40 minute ripening period is not going to make the milk very acidic at all. He's got a 45 minute coagulation time. In my experience, you're looking at about 20 minutes flocculation time, so that's a 2.25 multiplier. You see how the break was "sloppy" and I *think* this is actually the correct time to cut the curd. I'll get myself in trouble here because hard cheeses are *not* my thing, but whenever I see videos of professionals making things like parmesan, the break is *very* sloppy indeed. By cutting it early, you let the whey drain better. You will also lose fat (which is why these producers make the best ricotta -- lots of fat left over). But this is also the reason for the longer curd healing time. Sometimes you will see in recipes to cut the curd fairly large, let it drain without stirring for 10-15 minutes followed by recutting it into small bits. Controlling this cut is probably the most important part in getting the texture of the cheese right.
IIRC his cook time is not that long -- 40 minutes to bring it up to temperature and then a further 40 minutes. The key here is hitting the right pH on drain. It's a dry curd, so if you let the pH drop too much on you, it will be hard to knit the curds. That's why it's so important to cut the curds properly (and to get the timing of when to cut right). We don't want to over cook the curds, letting the pH drop too far.
Then when you get it in the mold, you want to let the cheese drain without pressing too hard. Your goal should be to close the rind in about 2 hours (after which the pH will drop too far to be able to close it easily). Have a look at Gavin's pressing. The rind is closed after the first pressing. That's a clear sign that he's pressed too hard. Throw away the number of pounds. What you want to do is to press just enough that you can see beads of whey forming on in the holes on the mold. If it is running whey, then it's too much weight. You *don't* need a lot of weight for these kinds of cheeses if you do it correctly. Commercial parmesan producers use only something like 25 lbs of weight on top of those *huge* wheels. Because the pH is high, the curd will knit. Flip every 30 minutes and inspect the rind at each flip. Again, the goal is to get it to knit completely after 2 hours.
So what happens if you over press? Take a look at the eating video to see. Do you notice all the cracks and holes inside the cheese? Do you notice how it is both wet and crumbly? That's what happens when you over press. If you close the rind before it has drained completely, the whey gets trapped inside. Because it contains a lot of lactose and because it takes time for the salt to get into the cheese, the starter culture keeps fermenting and making the cheese way too acidic. Then because it's wet, the cheese never dries out. Gas is produced by the bacteria and breaks apart the cheese where it is crumbly and you essentially get a big mess (like his cheese there). If you watch all of Gavin's videos you can see many, many, many cheeses where he over presses the cheese and ends up with a problem.
As for aging. Again, his rind treatment is basically a crash course on the opposite of what you want to do. If you want to do a natural rind, do *not* try to keep the rind clean. That's just craziness. The vinegar treatment is also a bad idea in my experience (even though I have previously suggested it myself... sigh...) If you want to vac pack it, then let it dry out appropriately and vac pack it. It should be fine. If you want to do a natural rind, I recommend making a few tomme cheeses (which are *easy*) and then letting them age out for a variety of different times just so you can get some practice (say 3 weeks, 5 weeks, 8 weeks, 12 weeks, 16 weeks -- after that, there really isn't anything to do and the cheeses are basically stable). General advice: let it dry at room temp until it is dry to the touch or greasy/slimy (yeasts show up). After that age it in the cheese fridge. If blue shows up, try to reduce the humidity. The first time anything grows on the cheese (blue or white), wash with a 3% brine solution (higher salt concentrations *encourage* blue). Let it grow again. If you get blue again, was one more time and really try to get the humidity down. As long as you have white, let it grow. After the 2-3 week mark, do not wash it again or else you will get b. linens (orange). If it *does* show up, then dry off the cheese aggressively and keep your humidity low. If you get blue again, then just leave it -- at this point it won't do any damage at all. At about the 4 week mark you can either wash and dry it (thoroughly) and then apply oil every few weeks (to get an oiled rind) or just let whatever grow on it (potentially brushing it off with a towel or something similarly soft -- apparently an old shaving brush works perfectly). Like I said, though, it takes some practice to get it working nicely (and to learn how to deal with problems), so it's best to make cheeses that you *plan* to eat early in order to get that practice.
Thank you very much for the detailed explanation.... Unfortunately I am not tracking the pH, as we have only just started on our Cheesemaking journey.... Your explanation of how much to press is excellent, easy to follow, and understand.... I will make my first pressing of any hard cheese short and light, watching the flow of the whey carefully, and try to close up the rind at 2 hours as you suggest.... I would assume that after that, you can press harder, or is that just a waste of time?.... It seems "every" recipe for a hard cheese ends up with pressing overnight, usually at significant pressure....
At the moment we wax most of our cheeses, the only exceptions are a Parmesan (4 weeks ago) and a Manchego (2 weeks along), neither of which have developed any mold so far.... We are concentrating on hard and semi-hard cheeses, with a Halloumi thrown in along the way, and 2 batches of fresh Cream Cheese.... Once the Cheshire we just made is in the cave, we will have a total of 8 varieties....
Thanks again for your help....
Bob
For a hard cheese, you can press it as hard as you want after it is finished draining (the first 2 hours or so). Similarly, for a cheddar you can (and should) press it as hard as you can right when you put it in the mold -- because it finishes draining in the cheddaring process. How much weight you need on a cheese depends a huge amount on the pH. One of the reasons you don't tend to need a massive amount of weight on a parmesan is because it's made with a thermophilic culture. After you've drained it, the pH is still quite high and because the temperature is low it acidifies very slowly. So you want to press it overnight as it acidifies. Some hard cheeses need a lot of weight because the cheeses are really huge. The ones with the really big eyes require a very large cheese to capture enough CO2 to produce large eyes. Because of this you need a lot of actual weight. But generally speaking, you want to *slowly* close the rind (over about a 2 hour period) and then hammer it with lots of weight to close any gaps on the inside.
Just so I understand, would you agree with the following summary of pressing hard cheeses?....
A cheese that has been cheddared should have finished draining during that process, and can have lots of weight early....
Other hard cheeses should just use enough weight to assist draining, to close the rind at the 2 hour mark....
The more acidic the cheese, the harder you can press it initially (I should get some pH strips)....
A cheese made with a Thermophilic culture (like a Parmesan or Kefalotyri) should have less pressure, for a longer draining period?....
Once the rind is closed you can use as much weight as you want to close any gaps on the inside (is there a maximum?)....
Bob
I think the most instructive thing to do is to make a cheddar (or even just cheese curds). Without any weight at all, the initial curds will meld into a slab. Cut the slab into 2. Stack the 2 slabs vertically. Wait 15 minutes and flip it over. That stack will meld into a single slab. Cut the slab into 2. Stack them vertically. Wait 15 minutes and flip it over. That stack will meld into a single slab (just about anyway). Cut the slab into 2. Stack them vertically. Those two slabs will never meld. One will sit on top of the other for ever. If you cut the slabs you will notice that the cheese is hard and basically completely drained.
What's happening is that at a high pH and high moisture content, the curds can meld together. As the pH sinks and the cheese drains, the curds no longer meld. At a pH of about 5.3, with normal moisture for a cheddar and normal cheddaring temperature, the curds will stop knitting together. Incidentally, this is where you want to stop cheddaring :-)
So with a cheddar, because you've already drained it, you can put as much weight on it as you like. But because the curds are acidic and already drained, they will not knit together easily. You need insane amounts of weight on it. Thus for a cheddar, as soon as you've got it in the press, you should put lots and lots of weight on it.
With other cheeses, as you said, you should back off the weight until it has finished draining. At that point you can crank up the weight as high as you want. It's really just like a cheddar. It usually takes about 2 hours to drain the cheese and because it is easy to close the rind at that point, you want just enough weight to do so while the pH is high. However, you don't want to close it early because it will stop the cheese from draining.
It is not true that the more acidic the cheese, the harder you can press initially. It depends entirely on the amount of whey in the curd. You have to wait until it has drained. However, it generally takes less time to drain a more acidic cheese. The 2 hour rule is just a rule of thumb. Really, you watch how much whey it is expelling. When it stops draining whey very much, it's ready for the higher weight.
However, it *is* true that the more acidic the cheese is, the more weight you will need to press the cheese if it is not already closed.
The type of culture you are using doesn't really make any difference. It's all about the amount of moisture and the pH level.
It's not once the rind is closed that you can up the weight -- It's when it has finished draining. That is very important. However, there are actually 2 ways to close the gaps inside the cheese. If you have your curds and, for instance, pour them out of the vat into a colander and then put them into the mold, they will have lots of air spaces between them. If you don't press the cheese, those air spaces will remain in the paste as "mechanical holes". For some cheeses, you want that (it's very common in a Tomme de Savoie, for example).
However, if you gather up the curds *in the vat* with your cheese cloth, squeeze it a bit to get the curds to stick together into a slab (called a tomme -- this is the origin of the name of the cheese "tomme", BTW), there will be no air inside the cheese. Instead it will be full of whey. If you let the cheese drain, the suction of the exiting whey will suck the cheese together and you generally won't have any holes. This is traditionally how parmesan and gouda are made. In the case of parmesan, they have V shaped vats. They let the curd settle in the vat and the weight of the curds basically presses itself into a tomme. Then they get a bit cheese cloth, wrap up the tomme and hoist it out of the vat. With a gouda, the vat was traditionally a shallow wooden vat (not directly heated which is how they developed the curd washing technique). Then you wrapped up the curds with a cheese cloth and squeezed it up against the side of the vat. Then finally put it into the mold. Actually, this is also true for the original jack cheese where you gather up the curds into the cheese cloth in the vat, remove it and then either twist the cheese cloth, or use a stilton knot to consolidate the tomme.
As far as maximums... I think as long as you drain the curd well, you generally can press it as hard as you want. To be honest, though, I have *never* put more than about 20-30 pounds of pressure on my cheeses (I only use a 4.5" mold, though), which works out to less than 2 psi. To be fair, I haven't done a true alpine cheese yet, but it's really all about watching the cheese and getting the timing right. My last tomme had literally 0 weight on it and it closed perfectly well.
Making a traditionally goat/sheep milk cheese with cow milk just isn't quite the same, even if you use lipase (I personally dislike cow+lipase cheeses). What about making a grana cheese that is traditionally made with cow milk?
I didn't look at the recipe but goat and sheep milk usually involve a few tweaks as far as rennet quantities and temperature. Not sure if he noted that.
What size mold are you using? It's all about the PSI... I had some issues switching to a 10" mold because I initially didn't use enough weight.
A 4" mold at 1.5 psi needs about 19# while my bigger wheel would require 117#
Thank you both for your answers, I am learning a LOT.... 8)
The concept of letting the curds consolidate in the whey, and then wrapping them in cheesecloth, so that when lifted out there are no air spaces, is brilliant, and a concept I can readily understand.... I wonder why that is not used more?....
I now understand why a cheddared cheese needs a lot of weight, to knit the curds that don't really want to stick together.... I can also see that the reverse is true, and that warm, moist and acidic curds have a natural desire to stick together....
I very much enjoy understanding the "why" things work the way they do, thank you so very much, Mike, for taking the time to explain it in detail.... :D
AC4U for your trouble.... ;)
Bob
OK, so 6 weeks ago we made a Kefalotyri, and it is now ready to go into a colder storage location, at 44*F instead of the 55*F it has been at.... The initial aging was "naked" for about a week, but after constantly chasing mold, we vacuum bagged it.... Today we opened the bag, dried out the small amount of moisture, cut off 1/4 to try and rebagged it to be opened again at 3 months.... Here is a photo of it just after pressing and drying....
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/oo221/rsterne/Kefalotyri_251020_Email.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/rsterne/a/51b71c5f-e26c-457c-b4e4-d8c7586aae7d/p/2e73d257-f401-4a6b-87e9-02e3e2baf939)
And here is a photo of the piece we are going to try as Saganaki tonight.... There was no off smells from the vacuum bagging....
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/oo221/rsterne/Kefalotyri_6_wks_Email.JPG?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/rsterne/a/51b71c5f-e26c-457c-b4e4-d8c7586aae7d/p/c4afe687-38ad-40c2-a3a0-608f3b6c057a)
This 1/4 weighs 10 oz., and has the delightful aroma of a mild Lipase cheese.... The texture is firm, creamy and slightly open.... Next time I will press it harder, and we will use a rectangular mould so it will be easier to cut into tidy Saganaki sized slices.... It slices well, and is delicious, a bit like a mild Manchego (yeah, we snuck a bit).... I'll let you know if it melts all over the place when we fry it.... ::)
Bob
We couldn't wait, so had Saganaki for lunch.... ::)
We heated a cast iron pan to about 400*F, and then added some EVOO.... When it just started to smoke, we turned the heat down to medium and added the cold, flour dreged Kefalotyri slices, cut about 1/2" thick.... It didn't take long to start to brown, and here is a photo after the first time it was flipped....
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/oo221/rsterne/Saganaki_Cooking_Email.JPG?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/rsterne/a/51b71c5f-e26c-457c-b4e4-d8c7586aae7d/p/04aec8e5-ce54-4873-bf78-7cd2fc30d80f)
You can see that the cheese has not melted, and the inside is still not warmed through.... We turned it frequently until it was golden brown on both sides and the middle was soft and just starting to melt, then removed it from the heat.... We squeezed fresh lemon juice on top, flipped it on the pan, and put it on a trivet on the table.... This keeps it warm and soft during the meal.... Here is a photo of a piece cut on the plate....
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/oo221/rsterne/Kefalotyri_Saganaki_Email(2).JPG?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/rsterne/a/51b71c5f-e26c-457c-b4e4-d8c7586aae7d/p/b630aeb6-dc91-4cea-8fea-bb45b8ec9a5b)
It is soft, moist and delicious, with no signs of the disastrous melting that Gavin experienced with his.... Having the pan really hot before you drop the cheese on it is a must!.... The Kefalotyri is delightful served this way, although at only 6 weeks it is still pretty mild.... I expect it to improve with age, although it will be hard not to devour it immediately.... ;)
Bob
That looks delish!
AC4U
Must be hard to wait.. but I would try it again in about 3 months? It still looks a bit too .... fresh??? ... compared to what I've had in many restaurants.
Nice job though.
Thanks for writing up all the data on this thread.
There's some good in depth info here that a beginner like me really needs.
This question and answer session is really valuable, those explanations help a lot.
I'm posting this spam so I can find my way back here as and when I need to... :P
We tried our Kefalotyri again at 3 months, and it was delicious, and no problem with it melting too much.... In that respect it was the same as before.... However, it is becoming a very nice table cheese as it ages.... Next sampling at 6 months from make!....
Bob