Manchego is a very easy cheese to make at home. My mother is from that region in Spain and it's one of my favorite cheeses. It is traditionally made with ewe's milk from Manchega sheep, which is the main milk source in the region due to the dry climate. But it is made with a mix of ewe and cow, or goat, or all three, in areas where those animals are common. In other Spanish speaking countries, it is made often entirely out of cow milk. Please don't tell me it's called Hispanico cheese... you can read a rant about it at the end of the post ;D
This cheese is good at 3 months, and ages very well. When young it's dense and moist, and as it ages it gets more umami, flakiness and crystals (and you should really try to slice it paper thin if it's over 2yo). While cow's Manchego-style cheese is AFAIK not manufactured for long aging as a high quality product, using lipase it's possible to find a very similar basic taste although with a different (not necessarily worse) profile when aging it 1+ years.
Process
- pH targets: start 6.7-6.8, rennet 6.5-6.65, whey pitch 6.2-6.3, brine 5.2-5.3
- Milk: 6G Jersey (raw). I'd prefer ewe's milk from Manchega sheep, but that's not feasible for home production. 5.5G store bought skim milk plus 64oz non-homogenized heavy cream should give good results.
- Starter Culture: I use mother cultures at 1.5% meso and 0.5% thermo. When I don't have them available I go with 0.6g MA4001, but you can use any thermo/meso mix (Meso2+ThermoB, MA11+TA61, etc.), dissolve it in 60ml non-chlorinated water, wait 5 min for it to rehydrate, mix and stir.
- Ripen: Heat the milk to 86F (if you're using other cultures the optimal temperature might vary but should still be in the 80-90F interval). Check for pH drop and move on. If you're not using mother cultures you will have to keep it ~30 mins at 86F unless you heated the milk very slowly. Some people advise not to mix the cultures until 70-75F. From my experience in charcuterie this is to avoid them going dormant and slowing down the process as they need to awaken again... but we're heating the milk so quickly this shouldn't be an issue.
- Adds: Dissolve 0.5g lipase in 50ml non-chlorinated water, let stand 20 mins, add to milk and stir. If your milk is not raw, add CaCl2. The solid food-grade one is way cheaper than the liquid one sold for cheese-making, just need to weight 1/3 or what the recipe calls for to water. So if you're doing 6G of store bought milk, dissolve 2g solid CaCl2 in 60ml non-chlorinated water, stir in and let it rest for a minute before adding to milk. Lipase and CaCl2 should be added 10+ min after culture, 10+ mins before rennet.
- Rennet: Dissolve as needed to set milk in ~40 mins in 50ml non-chlorinated water. I do 2.25g double-strength, whisk milk top-down vigorously for a minute to get that Jersey fat back in, then add dissolved rennet to milk slowly stirring constantly for a minute.
- Coagulation: Check flocculation after 10 mins, x2.5 flocculation, target is 40 mins.
- Cutting Curd: Cut center, then 0.5-1" in parallel. Long side before short one. Let it rest 5 mins, then use harp or whisk to slowly cut the curds down to rice size in another ~5 mins.
- Cook curd: Heat to 102F over 30 min, never over 1F/min (depending on your culture the target could be anywhere between 95 and 104F). Keep stirring slowly and continuously. If you can't check pH or curd readiness, or won't stir continuously, cook it over 45 mins instead.
- Maintain: Stir slowly in an 8 pattern until you hit pH 6.3, or ~30 mins.
- Settle: Pitch (press under the whey) 5-10 mins to form solid single mass so it's easy to drain whey and get the curds in the form.
- Press Under ~102F whey: 30-60 mins, x1-x3 cheese weight, flipping 3 or 4 times.
- Press outside of whey: 2-8 hours, until pH goes below 5.3. I use seed heating mats, with 1 I get ~76F and hit pH in 4 hours, with 2 I get ~92F and hit pH in 2 hours. At room temperature (65-68F in my place) it goes 8 hours. Start with ~3xcheese weight, go to x8.
- Salt: Brine 4h/pound at 18% salt by water weight (add 5g CaCl2 and 5ml white vinegar per gallon of water -or enough vinegar to lower pH to 5.3)
- Air Dry: Leave in ripening box at room temp 6-12h flipping at least once
- Age: 50-55F 80-85H Wash the mold off for the first 1-4 weeks depending on your patience, then rub with olive oil and reapply the rub at 3/6/9 months (or whenever you see it drying off and mold coming back wash it out and reapply oil). Alternatively vacuum seal it, let it develop a natural rind, etc. Age as long as you want. In Spain the flavor (and price) hikes are at 3/6/12 months.
Pictures(https://i.imgur.com/Xb6RsCq.jpg)
Weekly haul of 6G Jersey raw milk, half from that morning, half from previous day.
(https://i.imgur.com/RWMhW4O.jpg)
I started to calibrate the pH probe everytime after I got some weird readings in the middle of a make. Having the calibration solutions in drab containers makes calibration cheap and fast. I found these (https://www.specialtybottle.com/glass-bottles/vials/4dram-vc4) are just perfect for the diameter of this probe.
(https://i.imgur.com/s7X5Mpy.jpg)
These multiprobe bbq thermometers are great, but the probes tend to go off now and then. I use one for the milk and another for the bain marie. As I sanitize them in boiling water it's a no brainer to also check they're working right (I first put them in a glass of ice and water). Sadly you can't calibrate this but at least you can substitute for another probe and they are cheap.
(https://i.imgur.com/12w05mm.jpg)
I don't really check the scale calibration every time, but wanted to show this... jeweler scale calibration sets are ~$10 and let you avoid the typical fault of these cheap scales (In my personal experience after 1-3 years of heavy use they start not registering weight properly until >1g is added, which can throw havoc into your make if you didn't know).
(https://i.imgur.com/NkvX6q0.jpg)
We like lipase in Manchego and usually go the generous way.
(https://i.imgur.com/yZK8kRY.jpg)
If you use a syringe for Rennet or other liquid ingredients, as 1ml~1g, you're set for success. I double check with the scale just in case.
(https://i.imgur.com/Lufwi1N.jpg)
Vigorously mixing that Jersey fat back in just before adding the rennet.
(https://i.imgur.com/3lqL9p7.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/79EYyuz.jpg)
1) Curd just cut at ~40 mins
2) And noticeable change after resting 5 mins
(https://i.imgur.com/PEIi9CC.jpg)
Using the harp (https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,12157.0.htm) to cut the curd slowly into rice size.
(https://i.imgur.com/cAC62x7.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/qA80xoe.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/KJk5Ew1.jpg)
1) Curd cut and ready to start cooking.
2) Finished heating, whey expression is clear.
3) Finished, right color and consistency. It only got to pH 6.35 but already went through 45 min cooking and 30 additional at 102F, and I will press under whey so I'm confident it'll be ok.
(https://i.imgur.com/X3arSIN.jpg)
Inside the Manchego (https://cheesemaking.com/collections/cheese-molds-and-presses/products/manchego-cheese-mold) form, about to press under whey. I find the large form fits 6G fine, could probably go to 8G, and the small one fits 2G perfectly, and can do 3G although the cheese will end up being as tall as it's wide.
(https://i.imgur.com/hDh50Ap.jpg)
I found many comments from people complaining on how hard it is to flip the cheese in these forms, so I wanted to show just in case. You don't need muslin, just flip it over so it's resting in the follower, and retrieve the outer mold. Gravity will do all the work for you.
(https://i.imgur.com/LQvPTuY.jpg)
Easy cheesy
(https://i.imgur.com/YDkrviA.jpg)
Pressing Manchego with a couple of seed heating mats rolled around. They'll get to ~90F so with the cheese starting at ~102F temp will be >90F for hours.
(https://i.imgur.com/UEmtnOD.jpg)
Going into the brine (https://cheeseforum.org/articles/wiki-making-cheese-brine/) for 24 hours, I will boil and filter the brine afterwards.
(https://i.imgur.com/IFqSajQ.jpg)
Ready to air dry for half a day, under a ripening dome, then into the cave. The pattern is impressive if you oil it with some color (adding pimenton is not typical for this cheese, but it works very well, similar with Turmeric or other strong colors). Natural rind also works very well, but brushing needs to be careful or it will destroy the pattern. I usually wait 2-4 weeks until I see full Geotrichum candidum covering, then brush it out, and apply olive oil, reapply it every month until it's 3-6 months old, then let the oil dry out and vacuum seal.
Hispanico Cheese Rant(http://[url=https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C7TY8yDUwAEPol-.jpg%5Dhttps://pbs.twimg.com/media/C7TY8yDUwAEPol-.jpg%5B/url%5D)
Reading "Hispanico Cheese" is a pet peeve of mine. From my point of view, assuming best intentions and other people having a different cultural baggage... it's unnecessary, it doesn't mean what the user thinks it means, and it unfairly makes the user look like an ignorant snob. Now I'm not saying there's any malice on the name, just a well-intentioned misunderstanding, but it feels like grandma forwarding you a sexually charged meme thinking it's about good religious practices...
- It's unnecessary. We say parmesan cheese even if we're not crafting it in Parma, we say halloumi and feta even if we're not using ewe's milk. I bought sheep Gouda a few weeks ago and it was labeled as "sheep Gouda", not "Nederlandse Cheese". You have cow Manchego being sold as cow Manchego in Spanish-speaking countries (in Mexico it's just called Manchego, and they negotiated the rights to that name with the Spanish Designation of Origin). Why do you need a new name instead of just the name used by manufacturers and consumers of that product?
- It doesn't mean what you think it means. I assume that whoever came with that name was US educated, and happily thought that Hispanico was just the Spanish way of saying "Hispanic" and that it meant the same thing. Maybe knew about Mexico being the main producer of cow Manchego and thought it'd be a great name (it would actually translate as "Hispano" and would have negative connotations for most people regardless of country of origin.. like Hispanic has). The issue is that the word predates by several centuries the United States having an immigration issue in the 1970s. In culture and arts it refers to the space of all Spanish speaking countries together, which would make calling your cheese "Hispanico" equivalent of hinting at it being the world's best, top quality, a superior product, not an alternative (if you google "Hispanico Cheese" you'll just find cheesemaking.com recipes where I guess it originated, and pages referencing them,. If you google "Queso Hispanico" or even "Hispanico Cheese" but in google.es instead of .com, you'll find a few Spanish cheeses made with cow, goat, and ewe's milk marketing to Americans with a huge premium, and nothing else. For non-cultural things, the term has been misused over the years by politicians all around and smells heavily of the Spanish Empire "on which the sun never sets", so would immediately alienate most Spanish speakers out of Spain itself (and inside).
- It seems like the worst kind of snobby ignorance – like you're trying to gatekeep something while at the same time showing that you do not understand what you are talking about at all. To me it feels like a Chinese famous food blogger who does not speak English nor has ever set foot outside Beijing telling the Chicago-born chef of a new American restaurant in the country that it's not right calling that all-beef frankfurter on a poppy seed bun "hot dog", because it is not a "real hot dog" as it has fresh tomato instead of ketchup, there's no sauerkraut and no chili on top, and the meat is not stuffed in natural casings... then saying he'll call it "Commonwealth Sandwich" from now on.
That's a beautiful Manchego, and thanks for the recipe!.... I see you are using a liquid Lipase, I have the powdered calf version, how much would you recommend for a 9 litre (2.4 gal.) batch?.... What do you think your total BF content is?.... I use a mix of 8 litres of homogenized/pasturized milk and add 18% cream (the 33/36% cream I can get has thickening agents, the 18% does not), so I can adjust the proportions, I plan on 4.9% BF (1 litre of 18%) for my next Manchego.... Also thanks for your tip on unmoulding the cheese upside down for flipping it.... Do you just try and align the seam for the next pressing, and does the pattern "reset" with each time you flip it?.... About what pressure are you using for the final press (or weight and mould diameter)....
Thanks again, and AC4U....
Bob
Thanks for the kind words Bob (and the cheese :)).
I use solid lipase and keep it in the freezer between uses. The liquid in the syringe is rennet, lipase is in the previous pic... there are some drops of boiled water from the sterilization process but you can see the lipase powder.
I use lamb lipase as I'm interested in that flavor profile. Lamb will get you towards the flavor profile in aged ewe's milk cheeses like Manchego or Pecorino Romano, while calf will get you towards aged cow's milk ones like Parmesano. Changing the dosage will not get you a Manchego flavor if you're using calf, the sharp/mild tagging is useful but can be misleading (calf will get you an interesting profile anyway, not better or worse just different, and if you're using cow's milk you could argue it's actually more "authentic"). For lamb lipase I found I like 0.4-0.5g for a 6G batch but friends not used to aged cheese find anything over 0.2g/6G overwhelming. I would go with whatever you like, for 9 liters that's probably 0.1-0.2g depending on your personal preference.
Composition content, if you want to know the commercial ones just check this chart:
(https://i.imgur.com/eMeRZVN.jpg)
I use full fat Jersey milk so I'd assume ~5%, which is basically what you were planning. I'd probably go with 6.5L of skim milk and 2.5L of your 18% cream to get that %BF, as I've found using skim and adding non-homogenized cream works better for me than going full fat commercial milk... but to be honest that's pure yield % observations, not that I've found it to taste better or worse (too few datapoints).
Aligning the seams... I've tried it but no difference... as you say the pattern resets, even in the last 30 min flip to get rid of the pH probe hole, the cheese is soft enough to reset. The only thing is to be careful you're not getting the blank band for the follower in the bottom of the last flip, or you'll have a strange looking cheese. Also you can use a dremel tool or a small file if there is some burr keeping the edges apart and making the seam too large.
My last hour of pressing or so is under 50lbs so about 8x the weight of the cheese. The inside diameter of that form is 7.5" so my pressing schedule goes from 0.2 to 1.13 PSI. It's such a short pressing time though that I'd be concerned of doing more harm than good if I tried higher. I've wondered about pressing colder and longer so I could go higher but the final product is dense enough once it ages.
Hope you post some pics when you make your next one!
Thanks for the quick reply, and for that very handy chart.... I'm a bit confused on the lamb lipase, however.... In your reply you said....
QuoteFor lamb lipase I found I like 0.4-0.5g for a 6G batch
but in the recipe you said 0.04 g.... a typo?.... Good advice on the "flavour profile" of cow vs lamb, I may get some lamb lipase at some point....
I have had great success with other cheeses mixing homo. milk and 18%, I tried skim and the 33% and was not happy, but have not tried skim and a much larger quantity of the 18%.... may have to do that as well.... Also, thanks for the warning about having the mold insert right way up for the last pressing, I planned on having it with the follower band up every time I pressed anyways.... I have already cleaned up the seam, but have not yet used my Manchego mould, the first one I made was in a small truckle.... We tasted it at 3 weeks, and vacuum packed it then, we will be opening it on New Year's Eve, at 3 months.... ;)
We pressed the small truckle at 1 psi 3 times, and then 2 psi for the last 6 hr. press.... It seemed OK.... Thanks again, and I will be sure to post photos when we do our next Manchego (likely in February)....
Bob
Mornduk, another great how-to on a classic cheese type. If you keep this up you're going to have to publish a guide to classic cheesemaking recipes, not really kidding. I have been kind of intimidated by manchego, maybe because it looks like it would be complicated. But this makes it seem very doable. Also, that is a beautiful cheese!
One question, I think I understand that the amount of time pressing out of whey will depend on the PH drop, which will depend on the ambient temperature. But I am a bit unsure of the mechanics of how to increase the weight amount, and at what intervals. If for example I estimated that my total pressing time might be around 2.5 hours, since my daytime RT is 85-90F, when and by what measure would I go from 3x cheese weight at the beginning of pressing to 8x cheese weight at the final phase of pressing? I hope that makes sense, as usual it is late at night, aka finishing a make time, and my brain is scrambled.
Also, I had to laugh about your Hispanico cheese bugbear, I have so many myself. But I must admit, until I started making cheese myself, I thought that Manchego and Hispanico were completely different cheeses. And in truth, I think I first heard the term Hispanico relatively recently (at least in cheese terms) maybe within the last couple of decades. Is that a new thing?
Thanks for taking the time to do this again. Another CFU.
Quote from: rsterne on December 29, 2020, 08:15:37 PM
I'm a bit confused on the lamb lipase, however.... a typo?
Yes. Good catch, I'll edit it. Thanks for the quality check :)
Now full disclaimer... lipase use is very subjective. When I was researching this I just went with the lowest recommended amount and adjusted from there.
Looking at my notes now I see that some don't add lipase, then some are low (Caldwell small batch will adjust to 0.03g for 9L), some are medium (Boofer's recipe here (https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,11343.msg87446.html#msg87446) would adjust to 0.28g for 9L, which funnily enough would be Caldwell's recommendation if we adjust down from her large batch recipe, some are very high (Carroll's would go to 1.7g for 9L). To complicate matters some recipes or lipase suggestions are based on Parmesan doses (I assume that's because it's the most popular lipase-using cheese for home makers), and Parmesan calls for a lot of lipase.
On the milk mix, I don't know, I have had better results with skim+more cream than with whole+less/no cream. But I was not using the same cream that you will be using, and I was not making Manchego.
I hope you eat really good cheese at New Year's Eve!
Quote from: mexicalidesi on December 29, 2020, 08:50:28 PM
Mornduk, another great how-to on a classic cheese type. If you keep this up you're going to have to publish a guide to classic cheesemaking recipes, not really kidding. I have been kind of intimidated by manchego, maybe because it looks like it would be complicated. But this makes it seem very doable. Also, that is a beautiful cheese!
It is really very easy, the cooking phase is slow and doesn't go up too much. If you don't have a harp you can get the rice-size with a whisk or any other kitchen utensil you can sanitize (a potato masher maybe? :))
Quote from: mexicalidesi on December 29, 2020, 08:50:28 PM
One question, I think I understand that the amount of time pressing out of whey will depend on the PH drop, which will depend on the ambient temperature. But I am a bit unsure of the mechanics of how to increase the weight amount, and at what intervals. If for example I estimated that my total pressing time might be around 2.5 hours, since my daytime RT is 85-90F, when and by what measure would I go from 3x cheese weight at the beginning of pressing to 8x cheese weight at the final phase of pressing? I hope that makes sense, as usual it is late at night, aka finishing a make time, and my brain is scrambled.
There's no strict guideline that you must follow. First, pressing under whey is not needed (I just like doing it so I avoid mechanical holes), a lot of authors just consolidate the curds under the whey with muslin cloth, their hands, a cheese mat, etc. If you won't be checking pH I would be generous with the pressing time, as some professional makers go as low as 5.0-5.1.
So in your case you have ~1h under whey and 3h out of whey, probably 5h total if you don't do the under whey pressing. You should flip more often at the beginning and increase the weight when whey beads stop appearing outside of the form.
Now I can tell you what I did in this make as I have it logged.
16:40 press under whey with 10 lbs, 91F
16:50 flip, 17:10 flip, 17:30 flip and increase to 20 lbs, 90F
18:00 press out of whey with seed mats and 25lbs, 91F
19:00 check pH (5.45), flip, increase to 50 lbs, 91F
20:00 check pH (5.29), flip, 90F - get the seed mats out and let it there for 30 mins to "heal" the pH probe hole.
20:30 Air dry room temp 65F, get brine out of fridge so it warms up a bit
00:00 To brine in fridge
You can see that I flipped a lot at the beginning under the whey (I don't like mechanical holes or asymmetrical cheeses, and I didn't want to flip too often out of whey), but I did not flip it often later on (because it's a pain to do it with the seeding mats). I went longer under the whey than in my recipe (because I was finishing dinner). I went directly from 25 to 50 lbs instead of bridging it with 35 (because I saw pH dropping fast and wanted to hit 50 before it was too late). And I let it air dry a bit before brine (I still had time for it to hit the lowest "ok" pH and I prefer air drying a few hours before the brine, also getting the brine a bit closer to the cheese temp and I had forgot to get the brine out of the fridge earlier because kids).
Today seemed like a good time to oil it. I was not sure whether I'd go natural rind, it had developed a good white coverage, but I was giving an olive oil+pimentón coating to a Mahón cheese I made three months ago so I decided to go that way too.
(https://i.imgur.com/6usGo56.jpg)
3 week Manchego in the front, 3 month Mahón in the back. Same coating, the only difference is it being the first one for the Manchego and the fourth one for the Mahón (I also cold-smoked the later for a couple of days but that didn't darken the color.
Crazy beautiful as always. They are so pretty it must be hard to cut into them.
I don't reply on this forum very often but this rant on the Hispanico being used for the cow milk type of traditional Manchego has triggered a reply.
I have been working with cheese makers around the world now for about 20+ years.
Spain is one my favorite places and my 'GoTo' source for Spanish cheese is 'the Man' Enric Canut.
Enric is the man who was most influencial in bringing back the traditional Spanish cheese on the Post Franco era. I learned to make Manchego style cheese from him as well as Iberico, Garrotxa and many other cheeses directly from him and other Spanish cheese makers. Enric today promotes the wines and cheeses of Spain and heads up the largest Food Festival in Spain so well versed in the traditions of historical into modern cheese in Spain. He was the man that dragged the Garrotxa cheese from the elders out of the dark post-Franco.
Enric is the man that brought traditional Spanish cheese out of the dark and still one of the most knowledgeable people on the subject.
He has laid out the following for the Manchego style cheese as far as where they fit for names
Manchego relates specific to the cheese from LaMancha
— La Mesta ... those made as they have been for centuries. By the sheppards primarily from a sheep goat mix but still taken out onto the grazing pastures. Most traditional production by the Shepard's.. grately seen in America
— Manchego ... 100% ewes milk but much of it commercial production.
— Iberico .. those made from sheep and goat mix primarily but with a small amount of cow milk. Often More commercial in production
— Hispanico .. these are primarily all cows milk or a small amount of goat and sheep included.
I would not be offering a cheese as Manchego(known for being made primarily with ewes milk) when there is absolutely no cheese milk in it. This is why I have given it the proper name.
I must say that I find your rant way out of place as well as offensive in your lack of knowledge and devisive characterization of others.
Time to step back and get the real story before spouting off. Nothing personal here.. just trying to set the record straight for you
If you care to follow up with this offline, use the Contact Page at cheesemaking.com
I'm sorry that you took that personally. Also happy to see you post in the forum.
I have the utmost respect for your work and the help you have provided to generations of home cheesemakers. I have checked your recipes often myself so I'm in your debt, it's arguably the best free recipe resource available online in scope and accessibility.
Regarding "Hispanico". I stand by what I said. Please google search "queso hispanico" and then tell me it's a name used in Spain for what you are describing, or at all.
Manchego is used for cow milk Manchego-style cheese. As you can see the spanish D.O. tried to litigate and had to allow its use in Mexico as it predates said D.O. (one source in English here (https://www.eluniversal.com.mx/english/mexico-gets-keep-its-manchego-cheese)).
So again it's an unnecessary made-up name that does not reflect the reality of how spanish-speaking people call those products. As soon as you're not making the cheese in La Mancha using 100% Manchega sheep and following the D.O. directives it is not "Manchego" anyway, so why use it in one case and not the other. Language is always evolving and maybe there'll be a proper name for cow-milk Manchego at some point, and maybe it will come from what an expert thinks it's the right name (although historically it seldom does).
Now I see that you were using that name out of respect, and my rant was unnecessarily harsh, so if you agree to disagree we can take a gentleman's agreement and I will edit it out so the thread is not derailed.
Edit link was not working :-\
This was a very interesting discussion, and I'm glad y'all both shared your information.
This was a really interesting discussion. In truth, I'm not sure if I understand it completely. In fact, I am 100% sure I have it wrong, in whole or part. A summary of my take from these posts, would you guys correct it?
Mornduk: The term Hispanico is unnecessary and confusing when used alone to differentiate Manchego made from cow's milk from Manchego made with ewe's milk. Due to cultural/linguistic misunderstandings, it has come to mean something that more widely encompasses cheeses of Iberian/Latin nation origin a way that is not useful or accurate. So would best not be used at all, or at least in a less generic manner. *So if you are making a Manchego type cheese with cow's milk, just say "cow's milk Manchego", rather than Hispanico.*
Jim: The term Hispanico means exactly one thing, Manchego made with cow's milk (or a small amount of ewe/goat milk as well). Manchego, as a term standing along, is a cheese made only with ewe's milk. The word/definition "Manchego" is not subject to cultural understanding/linguistic change; a cheese so designated should only be made with ewe's milk, and consistent with the method/means/geographical siting and terroir required by official organizations like the PDO and the traditional cheesemakers who know it best. *So if you are making Manchego type cheese with cow's milk, use the term "Hispanico." *
I think language is determined by users, over time, so I have no idea which, if either of you, will end up being "right." Historically it is pretty hard for anyone to set terms on what a word means, unless there is nearly universal understanding that one form is wrong, and enormous social pressure to correct it (recently, use of the "n" word). That almost never happens.
My guess is that for many reasons, including the increase in home-cheesemakers world-wide, jurisdictional commercial enforcement issues for organizations like the PDO, and social media which is not easily subject to enforcement issues at all, cheese language, like other language will continue to evolve by itself. Regardless of what we here, or the PDO, thinks. I think the PDO has a great and useful function in terms of recording tradition and history. Long term legal success in designation, not so clear.
Jim, I do think you are fighting a losing battle in some ways. As demonstrated by the recent episode with Gavin Webber, when the PDO came after him for using the term "Grana Padano type" in one of his videos. He made it super clear in that video, repeatedly, that his recipe was not for the PDO designated cheese (much more clear, in fact, than your Manchego recipe). The PDO effectively conceded gracefully in the end. In ongoing designation battles, I think this incident demonstrates that the PDO is holding the thin edge of the wedge (no pun intended.)
I've got to say that I'm pretty firmly on Jim's side here. I mean, I'll cut people some slack because if it's just a matter of communicating, I generally know what they mean. But that's different than saying it doesn't matter. It really *does* matter. Look at the cheeses around the world that barely resemble Brie or Camembert and yet are labelled that way. There are people who think they don't like Brie, who have never had it. Likewise, I grew up hating feta because it was a bland, horrible cheese. Then I actually ate it.
Last summer I was working pretty hard on my queso Cotija style cheese. But let's face it. I *can't* make Cotija cheese. I don't have the ingredients, or the climate to do it. All I can do is make a cheese inspired by Cotija. It's fine (IMHO) to use the word "Cotija" in describing what I'm doing because it helps communicate. However, it's another thing to pretend that my cheese or my recipes represent Cotija in *any* way. That's both disrespectful and damaging.
It's frustrating beyond belief to see "Brie" in the store *from France*. Yes, companies do that because they can get away with it and it makes them money. Are they *right* to do it? Is it something that we, as cheese lovers, should encourage and even emulate? Hell no. It sucks. The same goes for the confusion caused with really terrible so-called "Manchego" cheeses that you can pick up in bad super markets around Europe. It hides the real cheese from view. It makes them impossible to get because they are buried under *completely different cheeses that stole their name*.
Even if someone makes a good cheese and mislabels it, it causes harm. Look at all the wonderful 400g, 60% fat by dry weight artisan "Brie" cheeses in the US. They are wonderful cheeses, without doubt. But you can't buy a decent cheese that is *actually* in the Brie style because it would be impossible to sell it in the US. People wouldn't buy a 1 inch thick, 16 inch wide, 6 lb wheel of cheese that has b. linens growing happily along side the PC. "That's not Brie" they would cry. And that makes me cry too.
I do not like that the discussion is derailing. I am also not sure why is there a discussion. Queso Hispanico does not mean cow's milk Manchego. That is not arguable in the same way that "Pink" does not mean "Taxi", regardless of how strongly you wish for it to be that way. It might mean it some day if enough of us start using it. But it does not nowadays.
Let me google "queso hispanico" for you:
(https://i.imgur.com/xO0pUih.jpg)
- 253 results in Google basically mean that nobody is using that word combination
- The first result is ewe's milk cheese, so is the second, the third is mix ewe and cow. So even the few random mistakes in labeling the product are not using that word the way you think it is used -100% cow
Now I just spent a minute browsing the spanish government materials, and it happens to be that someone actually pushed for queso hispanico to exist as a PDO. So it does exist even if it's so obscure that nobody talks about it. You can find it here (https://www.boe.es/buscar/act.php?id=BOE-A-1987-16728).
It defines it as at least 30% ewe's milk, so it's not the DOP word for 100% cow Manchego.
By the way in the same document you can see that "La Mesta" is defined as at least 75% ewe, at least 15% cow, not "a sheep goat mix".
Also it gives pretty good instructions on time and temp, pressure weight etc. if someone is interested.
The rant came because while researching for the topic of this post, I saw some jerks in social media shaming newbie cheesemakers who were posting about their "first manchego". As it was too late to engage in those archived discussions, I vented on my thread here. Public humiliation works well against cyberbullies and I probably went overboard. So I'd rather leave it like this. It's also embarrassing.
Ok ... time to put an end to this ... If it. hadn't been for the rant I probably would have just left it alone and moved on.. Yes, ... I do look through the forum periodically but rarely Jump in to the conversation.. A lot I read here is great and Iv'e made a few good friends here over the years.
This one just tripped that urge. The phrase "Snobby Ignorance" is not often a term directed my way. So that changed things with a response.
I myself have gotten notices from various cheese protectors/regulators like the folks at Stilton and learned not to do that. In 20 years of visiting traditional cheese makers around the world I have learned a respect for regional cheese ... much of this comes at night over a bottle of wine with them .. and seeing just how hard they work
first off.. If you are a home cheesemaker, you can call it anything you like, However here I have a problem myself passing the cheese out with the name of Manchego and it's reference to the the Manchega Sheep as well as the region of La Mancha.. when its made with Cows milk. It comes from a historical timeline.
In Spain I became fascinated by their 'Dehesa' (the Shepards Highways). I have had several cheesemakers introduce me to their shepards and talk of the history of this. I still see Shepards today, moving their sheep/goat mix daily to these grazing grounds. Even today the streets are closed in Madrid on one Sunday every October to move the flocks through the center of the city to honor this tradition... Now thats tradition.
The quote here from the request for designation, I'm pretty sure comes from Senor Canut or his camp..
"Considering that the cheeses made from mixtures of sheep, cow and goat milk, called in these standards "Hispánico", "Ibérico" and "De la Mesta", have well-differentiated characteristics and have reached sufficient importance, it seems appropriate to issue the referred standards of composition and specific characteristics"
... The point is to keep the distinction between the real deal and the commercial ones such as those substituting cow for ewes milk.
In contrast Feta type cheeses were made not just in Greece but all over that part of Eastern Europe and Feta so that was not hard to understand when Greece tried to protect the name. Others like roquefort, Comte, etc deserve the designation.
A very interesting cheese is the Bitto in northern Italy .. the locals practically went to war over that one ... look up 'Bitto Historica' .. i comes from the Valtallina in northern Italy
At any rate I think I've said enough on this for now.. Mornduk other than the rant, a pretty nice piece, y'all can get back on track now.
.... JWALLACE@CROCKER.COM
Sorry. I misunderstood your rant. If you are arguing that "Hispanico" as "Cow Manchego" is just as bad as calling it "Manchego" in the first place, I'm totally on board. But also, sorry for participating in the derailment.
Whew! What a spirited discussion!
To maintain my sense of what I've created, I need to differentiate between a cheese made with sheep milk and one using a similar technique but made with cow milk. Hey, what's in a name? A cheese by any other name would taste as sweet. :P (Apologies to W. Shakespeare).
I love photo essays. Yours was wonderful, enlightening, and educational.
Beautiful work, Mornduk. Have a cheese.
-Boofer-
I chatted with Jim last week and we agreed to disagree. He thinks that is the right name according to his experience. I think I provided proof that 1) the word is not used, and 2) the PDO for Hispánico requires at least 30% ewe's milk -so you can't use it for a 100% cow milk product and claim you respect PDOs at the same time.
I wanted to clarify that we both think a traditional Manchego is a superior product and we love it that way. My family on the mother's side has been producing it for generations and it's the cheese I was raised into, -that's why I don't like people gatekeeping it unnecessarily while they don't gatekeep Gouda or Camembert, for example.
Again my rant came after I saw a couple of snobby jerks in social media gatekeeping and publicly shaming some first-time cheesemakers who were happily posting about their "Manchego", so I went on to ridicule them here as I couldn't do it in the original archived discussion, and I went fully into it. I was not directing it to Jim as he might have thought, in my eyes he's worked for decades to bring new home cheesemakers in, not to scare them out, so he's the opposite of those bullies.
Regardless, the original jerks will never read the post anyway since they are not the kind of people I have read posting here during the past 10+ years. Because the internet is an asynchronous place, someone in the future might again mistakenly think I was referring to Jim or someone else here, so to avoid that I will edit out the juicy parts of my rant and just leave the facts. If someone wants to read the original she can always use the way-back machine or similar archives.
Mike, a thread derailed is given new life and engagement, so no need to apologize. After all I won't open this cheese for at least 6 months (if it doesn't age well), probably 1-2 years.... I was just worried that the discussion was heating up unnecessarily :)
I feel bad mostly because now that my reading comprehension problem has been fixed, I agree with you :-) Naming is such a difficult problem because you run that line between communicating intent and communicating facts. It's a bit silly to say, "I'm making a cheese that is often made with milk from a certain breed of sheep, but I'm using cows milk and there are other cheeses that may or may not use cows milk completely. Oh and by the way the original cheese is from Spain and looks cool". Even the wrong name is better than that :-)
Somewhat interestingly, inspired by Jim's imeruli recipe, I've been going in a deep dive of that style of cheese. A coworker of mine lives in Georgia (remote working) and his girlfriend is from Imereti so I'm getting some guidance from them. But I don't really feel even remotely right in calling my cheese imeruli -- I've never tasted the cheese before! It's all very confusing...
Anyway, I've been enjoying your posts quite a lot here and on reddit, so please post more :-D
Quote from: Mornduk on December 29, 2020, 06:03:11 AM
Process
- pH targets: start 6.7-6.8, rennet 6.5-6.65, whey pitch 6.2-6.3, brine.
Stir slowly in an 8 pattern until you hit pH 6.3,
I have one question on the recipe, was the ph measurement whey or curd. I drained at 6.35 today and It dropped to 5.12 in the press in 5 hours. My batch was 80 gallons in 6 wheels so there was some heat in the wheels to keep the bacteria active. But i was curious as to what measurement you go off of.
Quote from: Chetty on March 06, 2021, 12:26:19 AM
I have one question on the recipe, was the ph measurement whey or curd. I drained at 6.35 today and It dropped to 5.12 in the press in 5 hours. My batch was 80 gallons in 6 wheels so there was some heat in the wheels to keep the bacteria active. But i was curious as to what measurement you go off of.
I go for whey pH until press, then curd in the wheel to check when it's done and ready for the brine. I tried measuring curd pH vs whey pH before draining the whey and putting the curd in the form and they're always just 0.1 apart from me so it wasn't worth it. If yours dropped so fast most likely culprit is press temp being high, you can drop it a bit or check earlier next time. Those are also really big wheels so I'd pull at 0.1-0.2 higher pH as they'll remain active in the brine longer. I'd love to see the pictures :)
I didnt follow your recipe exactly, but I was using it as a loose guide. I dont brine I dry salt. I molded up at 6.42 but pressed under whey till 6.35.
Quote from: Chetty on March 06, 2021, 11:08:21 AM
I didnt follow your recipe exactly, but I was using it as a loose guide. I dont brine I dry salt. I molded up at 6.42 but pressed under whey till 6.35.
Hey, cool to see you posting here! Your cheese will be fine. Next time either start your culture temp 2 degrees cooler or finish your cook about 3 degrees cooler and you will finish with a terminal pH of 5.3ish.
Kendall in Idaho
I'll give it a go, I only make this style once every other month so I'll keep it in mind for may.