All the recipes I have looked at for Parmesan, Asiago, Romano, Sbrinz and Grana Padano are brined.... What would happen if you direct salted the curds before pressing instead?.... Have any of you ever done this?.... What were the results?.... What changes are needed to the make?.... Do you need more salt (greater than 2%?)....
Bob
I think those cheeses are brined mainly because they are so huge. It's just convenient. Packing on the pounds of salt you'd need is not really reasonable. I think Beaufort is sometimes dry salted and they do several applications over the course of a few days. I dry salt all my cheeses and I don't notice any difference at all. I make small cheeses, though :-) The one problem with dense cheeses is that you need more salt. I'd definitely go with 3% with most of these (and considerably higher for a Romano, which is meant to be quite salty). I would not salt the curds before pressing because you'll inhibit the culture and slow the acidification. These cheeses are not my forte, but I *think* the speed of acidification is crucial to the texture of the cheese. They are all quite slow to begin with because you raise the temp very high. Parmesan, in particular, is drained at a surprisingly low temperature with the *intent* to keep the pH high for a longer time. This allows the curd to knit with much less weight than would normally be needed. I've read somewhere that Parmesan typically only has something like 24 kg on a 45 kg wheel. I may be misremembering that, but I don't think so. If you watch videos of professional producers, they pitch the curds a vase shaped vat and by the time they take it out to drain it's already mostly knit.
So if you want to dry salt, I'd go for it. For larger cheeses I would be tempted to salt a few times over the course of a few days (so 1% per day over 3 days) to ensure that the salt actually gets into the cheese. Again, I'm not that experienced with these kinds of cheeses so take this advice with a grain of salt (ha ha ha).
Thanks for that, Mike.... I have done enough brining I am more comfortable with that than dry salting the exterior after pressing.... I would love to try salting the curds before pressing, but I know that if I do that too early the pH would not be down to what you want a Grana cheese to end up at.... What about allowing the curds to sit, either in a small amount of whey, or drained first, at about 86*F to get more acidic before pressing?.... I have a "warming cabinet" made from a bar fridge with an aquarium heater in the crisper tray with 10 L of water in it.... It will hold that temperature indefinitely, and works great for pressing Cheddars, or keeping the curds warm during the cheddaring process....
My concern is that I don't want to turn my Grana into a Cheddar.... ::) .... I know I'll be using a Thermophilic culture (ST + LH), what do you think would be the outcome?.... I don't really care if it ends up like a Parmesan, a Romano or an Asiago, I just want a Grana style cheese that I can age at least a year and will grate well.... If you think this will work, about how long should I keep the acidification going before salting and pressing?.... I managed to get a Cantal to knit.... cooked at 89*F and then acidified overnight at 72*F, then milled, salted and pressed to eventually 7 psi.... I successfully press Cheddars at 86*F, after cheddaring at 86*F, and it only takes 3.5 psi.... Unfortunately I don't have a pH meter....
So, if I make basically a Parm, small curds and cook it at ~130*F, then drain or partially drain and let it sit at 86*F for "X" hours to acidify, then salt and press, what would I get?.... I know it would be a LOT harder to press than a Parm usually is, but assuming I can get it to knit OK, what do you think the result would be like?.... ???
Anyone else ever done something similar?.... Success?.... Failure?....
Bob
Almost all of the pH development in a grana style comes after it leaves the vat. Salting the curd will prematurely halt the acidification. Additionally, these high pH cheeses like Alpines and Granas are quite large, so not only are they brined 12-24 hours after molding, but the salt takes a long time to reach the interior of the cheese.
The curd/cheese needs to stay quite warm to knit and develop that acid - leaving loose curds in a vat means they will loose even more moisture, and not want to knit since they'll be cooling off rapidly. And they won't reach the right pH.
I'm curious how fast salt penetrates with dry salting versus brining. I know the recipe I used for parm on cheesemaking.com called for 6.5 hours brining per pound. I think my parm needed 20 hours. Just not sure if you would get even salt penetration or how many days it would take for a dry salt to work?
I think dry salting and brining have similar rates for salt penetration, but not sure. Normal Parm wheels are brined 21 days. When I did a 20# wheel I think I did 7 days and it was fine, maybe needed a bit more salt.
Thanks for those thoughts, Bantams.... All of our cheeses are 8.5-9 litre makes, so in a Parm that ends up being about 1.25 lbs (a 6-7% yield is what we got before).... I can keep the vat at 86*F for as long as I want, in our heated cabinet.... With those things in mind, do you still think this idea is a dead end?.... Our first Parm turned out excellent (conventional make), I am just curious if we can salt before pressing if we get the timing right....
Bob
I'm curious why you would like to salt the curds before molding?
It would change the overall cheese quite a bit - maybe good, maybe bad, though I suspect it will lose its ability to knit and so you will have a mass of curds that doesn't want to adhere.
Simple curiousity.... I don't think I will have a problem getting it to knit, but it will obviously take a lot more pressure to do so.... I can get to 10 psi with my press maxed out and the small cylinder mold.... I am wondering if the final result would be basically like a stirred curd Cheddar, or if using a Thermo culture and cooking it a a high temperature will make it more like a Parm in taste....
I did find one reference, in a stirred curd Cheddar, that said the pH was down to about 5.4 after 2 hours of stirring.... Of course how fast the pH drops will depend on temperature.... Any guess on how long it will take to hit a pH of about 5.2 starting out after the normal cooking at 128*F, then allowing it to cool in the vat to 86*F, and then holding it there?.... At what pH do curds start to "Squeak"?....
I'm aware of the pitfalls, but my gut tells me it's worth trying, if for no reason other than it seems nobody else has tried it (or at least come forward).... I even have a name picked out for it.... "Grana Vecchio" as I plan to age it up to 2 years.... I just hope it ends up with a texture that will grate, rather than just crumble to dust.... ::)
Bob
The thermophilic cultures need temps of 108°+ to acidify. So you won't be getting the correct acidification at 86°. And the curds are super dry once they reach that temp - stirring them in whey any longer will further dry them out.
But I'm not going to tell you not to try it! :)
I have been scouring my books for Parmesan recipes.... In Paul Thomas' book "Home-made Cheese - Artisan cheesemaking made simple" he calls for leaving the curds in the vat to cool after cooking (at 131*F), with the lid on, for 60-90 minutes.... He then presses at only 2 lbs, tuning a few times, and says the pH should reach 5.40-5.00 "within a few hours".... No other recipes I have state a rest time after cooking more than 5-10 minutes, other than the one from this Forum, which was 20 minutes.... Anyways, it would seem that I can let the curds sit in the whey, cooling slowly, for at least 90 min. without causing an problem....
If I do this make, I will keep track of the temperature as the vat cools.... I thought Thermo cultures were at there optimum acidification rate between 95-105*F.... http://artisancheesemakingathome.com/pdfs/cultures.pdf (http://artisancheesemakingathome.com/pdfs/cultures.pdf)
Bob
Quote from: Bantams on January 12, 2022, 10:29:14 PM
The thermophilic cultures need temps of 108°+ to acidify. So you won't be getting the correct acidification at 86°. And the curds are super dry once they reach that temp - stirring them in whey any longer will further dry them out.
But I'm not going to tell you not to try it! :)
From my experience, thermophilic cultures are still active even as low as 80 f. I use yogurt most of the time in cheese making and It takes 6-10 hours (room temperature 80-95 f) to get the right acidity for a melting pliable cheese. It ferments faster if my yogurt is fresh.
Traditionally a lot of the large mountain cheese where made twice a day as their would be too much milk if you held over the evening milk , so they had a slow acid curve with fresh milk thus a slow acid drop at first and they would mold before 6.4 ph , thus the curds had lots of calcium still and this allowed for a great knit of the curds.
You need to get the moisture out of the curds before salting by cooking small grains , salting and pressing to get the moisture out will not give you what you want , it might taste pretty good , but I suspect it will be more crumbly than you would like
In the book American farmstead cheese my paul kindstedt they have a chapter on how cheeses where shaped by geography, climate, and economics. It really gives one an understanding of how to start creating ones own cheese when you understand why the cheese is that way , especially when you realize that they had no cultures to add only what the milk provided and the above mentioned . If you want to understand grana cheese look into why it is that way .
Gregore
The local college dairy were I'm from makes a Grana style cheese. The recipe is based off a cheddar full fat low moisture. They were proving that with the same cultures and a few changes to the make can change the cheese completely. The changes are as followed.
They use a little more culture then in cheddar, lactis and cremoris adjunct with lactobacillus helveticus. ( due to cooking to 105 degrees)
Cook to 105 degrees
Drain at 6.3 pH
Warm water wash by spraying with 100 degree water for 15 sec twice.
Drystir till ph 5.4
Then salt and press
The idea is to get the moisture under 30 percent to produce the flavor esters that give the fruity pineapple flavor. The aging is 10 -12 months.
Well, today's the day!.... I am going to make a "Grana Vecchio", which loosely translates to an "Aged Grating Cheese".... ::)
The recipe is my own, altered from the Parmesan one in Paul Thomas' book "Home Made Cheese" by (possibly) extending the 60-90 minutes that the curds sit in the whey until the curds squeek, at which time I will salt them before pressing.... It may or may not be much like a Parmesan, but as long as it tastes good and grates well after aging a year, I'll be a happy camper.... This is my first attempt at making "my own" cheese type.... 8)
Bob
The make went very well indeed.... There was no problem getting it to knit, although it took pressures more like a Cheddar.... Here is the recipe, with photos following....
QuoteGrana Vecchio Cheese (Salted Curd Parmesan) by Bob Sterne
(Recipe based on Paul Thomas' Book "Home Made Cheese" Pg. 115)
Takes Approximately 7.5 hours to Overnight Pressing.
Equipment Needed:
1/2 tsp. Two Thermometers
3/16 tsp. Flocculation Bowl
1/8 tsp. Both Curd Cutters
1/4 cup Measuring Cup (Glass)
2 Stainless Cups Stainless Bowl and Pasta Pot to save whey
Small Cylinder Mold Cheese Cloth for Mold and Colander
Slotted Ladle Colander
Slotted Spoon Butter Knife
Dinner Knife 1/2 tbsp.
Two Timers Whisk (Small)
1/16 tsp. (opt. LH 100)
Ingredients:
8 L Skim Milk (0%)
850 ml Coffee Cream (18%)
Total – 8.8 L at 1.7% Butterfat (Optionally use 4 litres each of skim and whole milk)
1/2 tsp. Calcium Chloride, dissolved in ¼ cup cool water
1/8 tsp. Thermophilic Culture (Su Casu) (Optionally use 1/8 tsp. MA 061 plus 1/16 tsp. LH 100)
3/16 tsp. double strength Liquid Chy-Max Rennet, dissolved in ¼ cup cool water
2 Tbsp. cheese salt
Method:
Heat the milk to 99° F. Add the calcium chloride solution and stir well to combine during heating.
Sprinkle the starter over the surface of the milk, wait 2 minutes for the powder to rehydrate, then stir well.
Cover and allow the milk to ripen for 45 minutes, maintaining 99° F.
Add the diluted rennet through a skimming ladle and stir gently with an up-and-down motion for 30 seconds.
Top stir for 30 seconds. Cover and let sit at 99° F based on flocculation time multiplied by 2.5X.
Check for a "sloppy" break (about 30 minutes).
Cut the curd vertically into 3/4"-1" columns. Rest 5 minutes. Cut the columns horizontally to 1/4" slices.
Rest 5 minutes. Whisk to pea-size, stirring the curds for 15 minutes.
Heat the curds to 131° F by increasing the temperature over a period of 45 minutes (~3° F every 5 minutes).
Curds should be barley sized. Remove from heat, cover and allow to cool for 2 hours, stirring every 15 minutes,
until the curds are slightly sour tasting. They will be firm and squeak, and be about plump rice sized.
Drain curds in cloth-lined colander for 5 minutes (save whey). Separate the curds so they look like cooked rice.
Add 1/2 tablespoon of salt to the curds, stirring in thoroughly with your fingers, allow to absorb for 2 minutes.
Repeat 3 times more, for a total of 2 Tbsp. of salt. Lift the curds in the cloth and place in mold.
Gradually press up to 15 lbs., making sure the whey is only dripping out, not running.
Press for an additional for 15 minutes, maintaining 15 lbs. (1 psi).
Flip, and wrap in proper cheesecloth for mold. Return to mold.
Press at 30 lbs. (2 psi) for 30 minutes. Flip, rewrap and place back into mold.
Press at 60 lbs. (4 psi) for 1 hour. Rind should be knit. Flip, rewrap and place back into mold.
Press at 90 lbs. (6 psi) for 10-12 hours (overnight).
In the morning, trim the edge if necessary, flip and press at 15 lbs. (1 psi) for 30 minutes (no cheesecloth)
to remove cloth marks. Air dry 1-3 days (at 55° F), turning twice daily.
Yield about 1 lb. 7 oz. (7.4 %). Wax in yellow wax. Age at 55° F for a year.
We will sample a quarter at 6, 12, 18 and 24 months to assess.
The changes to Paul's recipe were that I added 1/2 hour to the length of time it sits after cooking, to increase the acidification before I salted the curds (which was the major change).... Here is a table of how the curds changed as they cooled slowly in the vat over that 2 hours.... I removed the vat from the water bath and put it on the counter in a 72*F room during this acidification period....
Start - 131*F - sweet side of neutral - no squeak
15 min. - 127*F - sweet side of neutral - a hint of squeak
30 min. - 126*F - neutral taste - starting to squeek
45 min. - 124*F - neutral taste - squeaking
60 min. - 120*F - sour side of neutral - firm and squeaky
75 min. - 118*F - sour side of neutral - firm and squeaky
90 min. - 117*F - slightly sour - chewy and squeaky
105 min. - 115*F - more sour - chewy and squeaky
120 min. - 113*F - definite sour taste - firm and chewy like cooked rice and squeaky
I did one additional test to try and assess the pH (I don't have a pH meter).... I took a teaspoon of whey and dusted a tiny pinch of baking soda into it and watched for any sign of CO2 bubbles.... I thought I saw some at 105 minutes, and my wife confirmed there were definitely tiny bubbles forming at 2 hours.... This proves that the pH is definitely acidic.... At that point we drained the curds (they looked like cooked rice), salted them and put them in an NEC Small Cylinder mold for pressing....
I only used 10 lbs. for the first pressing, and the cheese was so delicate you had to be careful it didn't crumble, in fact a few curds fell off and my wife replaced them before putting on the top cheesecloth for the second pressing (at 20 lbs.).... At 40 lbs., and 2 hours into the pressing, the rind was almost completely knit, with just a few cracks.... Based on these pressing results I have increased the weights by 50% in the recipe above for the first 2 hours of pressing.... Photos of our make follow in the next post....
Bob
Here are the photos of the make.... After warming the milk to 99*F we added the Calcium Chloride and Su Casu culture....
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/oo221/rsterne/01_Culture(1).JPG?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/rsterne/a/51b71c5f-e26c-457c-b4e4-d8c7586aae7d/p/6142af21-090f-4e05-b522-9c2daccef7e2)
During the 45 min. ripening, we covered it with a towel and maintained the temperature....
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/oo221/rsterne/02_Ripening(1).JPG?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/rsterne/a/51b71c5f-e26c-457c-b4e4-d8c7586aae7d/p/398d8dd5-2bc9-45c8-a6f0-84a6969627cf)
After adding 1/4 tsp. of Rennett, we used the spinning bowl Flocculation test.... It gelled in 8 minutes, so I adjusted the recipe to 3/16 tsp....
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/oo221/rsterne/03_Flocculation(1).JPG?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/rsterne/a/51b71c5f-e26c-457c-b4e4-d8c7586aae7d/p/95f8bb6c-90fe-4d12-8050-1853fa3d1a98)
After a Floc. Multiple of 2.5 X, (20 minutes) we expected and got a slightly "sloppy" break....
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/oo221/rsterne/04_Break(1).JPG?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/rsterne/a/51b71c5f-e26c-457c-b4e4-d8c7586aae7d/p/86f8d780-8121-437a-a170-822db86668ce)
I cut the curd into 1" columns, and jiggled the vat gently to separate them and start expelling the whey during a 5 minute resting period....
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/oo221/rsterne/05_Columns(1).JPG?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/rsterne/a/51b71c5f-e26c-457c-b4e4-d8c7586aae7d/p/5f550620-135d-49b6-9b81-c432973dd6fd)
I then used my horizontal curd cutter to cut the columns into 1/4" thick layers, and rested another 5 minutes....
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/oo221/rsterne/06_Horizontal(1).JPG?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/rsterne/a/51b71c5f-e26c-457c-b4e4-d8c7586aae7d/p/35ca3836-8b4c-4d7a-b5d2-990ccb256677)
During that 5 minutes I twisted and swirled the vat gently to separate the cubes and accelerate the release of the whey....
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/oo221/rsterne/07_Sinking(1).JPG?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/rsterne/a/51b71c5f-e26c-457c-b4e4-d8c7586aae7d/p/cccfd13c-469c-4d34-a488-e07586536757)
I used a balloon whisk with the wires bent to a 1/4" spacing to break up the curds to pea sized....
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/oo221/rsterne/08_Whisking(1).JPG?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/rsterne/a/51b71c5f-e26c-457c-b4e4-d8c7586aae7d/p/ddad3d1f-565f-482d-83c2-66bd9fe8967f)
This was followed by 15 minutes of stirring, still at 99*F, to get the curds as uniform as possible and continue whey release....
The curds sank quickly as soon as you stopped stirring them, with just a slight tendency to clump together....
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/oo221/rsterne/09_Stirring(1).JPG?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/rsterne/a/51b71c5f-e26c-457c-b4e4-d8c7586aae7d/p/e2590c40-b5d8-4e32-9ebb-fef15db63fc4)
At this point, the curds were fairly uniform, firmed up nicely, and not easily damaged.... Now they were raised to 131*F over 45 minutes (~3*F each 5 min.)....
The photo below was taken at the beginning of heating, by the end they were half that size and cooked completely through....
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/oo221/rsterne/10_Ready_to_Cook(1).JPG?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/rsterne/a/51b71c5f-e26c-457c-b4e4-d8c7586aae7d/p/8f3cc5da-b9a8-4e3e-b501-3d97be335cce)
The next stage was to remove the vat from the heat, cover it and allow to cool slowly over a 2 hour period.... This causes the curds to shrink even more and increase in acidity....
After the 2 hours, they were drained and salted, then put into the NEC Small Cylinder mold and pressed as in the recipe (4 stages)....
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/oo221/rsterne/11_Drained(1).JPG?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/rsterne/a/51b71c5f-e26c-457c-b4e4-d8c7586aae7d/p/dcbcd953-da78-4d8a-bd44-b21f56ef34de)
This photo is half way through the third pressing, when almost all of the whey had been drained....
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/oo221/rsterne/12_Pressing(1).JPG?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/rsterne/a/51b71c5f-e26c-457c-b4e4-d8c7586aae7d/p/4bb9f6c7-93c2-457e-9000-dd4a77df65d6)
After 2 hours of pressing the rind was almost completely knit (photo below), and the cheese was then returned to the press for overnight....
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/oo221/rsterne/13_Two_Hours(1).JPG?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/rsterne/a/51b71c5f-e26c-457c-b4e4-d8c7586aae7d/p/2325abbd-1fb6-4f1d-98a4-18a7ba571587)
In the morning, the rind was tight and the cheese was very firm.... It weighed 1.5 lbs. before drying...
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/oo221/rsterne/14_Pressed(1).JPG?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/rsterne/a/51b71c5f-e26c-457c-b4e4-d8c7586aae7d/p/d82e67bb-16b2-413f-97ba-f8c2623ad020)
After a couple of days of drying, we waxed this cheese.... and put it away for 6 months before sampling a quarter of it....
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/oo221/rsterne/Grana_Vecchio_300122.JPG?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/rsterne/a/51b71c5f-e26c-457c-b4e4-d8c7586aae7d/p/0aeaef41-1cd6-4db4-b1ba-00c207e2e966)
We will consume a quarter each 6 months, with the last portion aging a total of 2 years.... So now the wait begins to find out if you can salt the curds of a Parmesan instead of brining it, and what the result will be.... ???
Bob
Bob, half or more of the fun of making your own cheese is that you can experiment! I will look forward to the results. (Yeah, having to wait two years is a bit of a down side, but ...)
I'm curious about the horizontal curd cutter in your pictures - this looks very similar to one that I made and use. Did you make this, or is this something that is now available commercially?
I made it myself....
https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,19308. (https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,19308.)
It is indeed a copy of yours, I linked to your design in that thread....
https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,14315.0.html (https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,14315.0.html)
It works great, so much better than the curd harp I made previously....
Bob
PS.... We opened this cheese today, and are delighted with the results.... We had a small piece of Parmesano Reggiano for comparison, and we definitely ended up with a Parm, but it is still a bit young, at only 6 months....
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/oo221/rsterne/Grana_Vecchio_at_6_months_Email.JPG?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/rsterne/a/51b71c5f-e26c-457c-b4e4-d8c7586aae7d/p/e721d9f7-176b-4e31-bdef-60fae52f0827)
It is firm and dry, and slices great.... Half of our first quarter we will set aside for grating on Pasta, but we are delighted with it as a table cheese.... Realistically, I can see no difference between brining it and direct salting the curds before pressing, as we did in this original recipe.... We can't wait until it is a year old to see how it improves with age.... This cheesemaking experiment is definitely a success.... ;) 8)
Bob
We had our second quarter today, at a year old.... AMAZING !!!!
It is a full-flavoured Parmesan, easily better than what you would buy in a Supermarket, and rivalling any Parm we have ever had.... It is firm and dry, and just a bit salty, as it should be.... The colour has darkened as well, and it tastes better at a year old than the "real" Parmesan we made 2 years ago was after 2 years.... 8)
We are so enthused about it, we are going to add an extra cheese in between our every-other-week schedule, just so we will have that one ready when we run out of this one at 2 years of age.... We will age it a minimum of 10-12 months.... This recipe is a complete and total success.... 8)
Bob
I'm going to have to give this a try. My biggest problem is finding a big enough pot (and finding enough milk)... Usually I'm limited to 4 liters :-P
I will probably modify the draining, though. I don't have a press capable of pressing fully ripened curds, so I'll probably gather the curds until the whey, put them in the mold an press lightly (like a Beaufort). Then drain and continue pressing until it's closed. I think I should be able to get most of the benefit you are getting and it's a bit closer to what would happen in a true parmesan make.
Sounds good, Mike....hope it works out for you!....
Bob