My second attempt at a semi-lactic cow's milk cheese is currently ripening. The first attempt didn't work out very well, I ladled out the curds before they were fully set. What I'm wondering is if anyone has any experience in this type of cheese and can offer any advice. I have a couple of questions at the bottom. Here is my plan:
2 gallons of raw milk at 72-74 deg F. 1/4 tsp Abasia thermo type C culture and a pinch of Geo 13. Ripen for half and hour. Add less than 1/2 the normal amount of rennet. Ripen at 72-74 deg till the curds form. Ladle directly into chevre-style molds. Drain for 12 hours, turning several times. Air dry at room temp for a day. Age for one week, turning daily.
If anyone has experience with this type of cheese, here are a few questions:
I know I should salt at some point. Would it be better to salt the curds before adding them to the molds or to salt the outside of the cheese after removing from the molds?
Is the thermo type C an appropriate culture?
How long should it take the curd to set? Is more than 24 hours normal? When should I discard milk if it doesn't set - after 48 hours?
This is the procedure (more or less) I follow making Lactic Cheeses:
CURD PREPARATION FOR LACTIC COW and GOAT CHEESES
The curd is characterized by having both rennet and lactic qualities because small amounts of rennet are used and a high level of acidity is developed before the curd can be ladled into the forms to begin the draining of whey. The curd is formed in the vat during a period of 15 to 48 hours depending on the cheesemaker's schedule. Because of their short aging period, these cheeses are made from pasteurized milk. The curd is made in the following manner:
Pasteurized milk at 20-22° C.
Add starter culture: EZAL MA series or MM series cultures are used. The EZAL MA series makes a tangy lactic curd and the MM series provides additional flavor from the L. diacetylactis and Leuconostoc bacteria (Mesophilic) added to the mix. ( I always use buttermilk as a meso starter).
The temperature is also adjusted.
15-20 hours: 24° C
20-28 hours: 22° C
28-36 hours: 21° C
36-48 hours: 20° C
Mix the culture in for 5 minutes. Wait 25 more minutes.
Add rennet to the milk.(I add 1 drop/1 liter of milk)
Ripen the milk for 15-48 hours. Signs that the curd is ready to ladle are that it has separated from the sides of the vat and there is a 13 mm layer of whey on top and there are cracks in the curd body.
The curd can be ladled and predrained in cheesecloth for 10-15 hours and then packed into forms (as for making Crottin) or ladled directly into the forms. The extent of draining determines how much whey is removed from the curd. The draining period regulates the body characteristics and determines the final quality of the cheese. This period can be from 15-36 hours at a temperature of 20-22 deg C; lower temperatures inhibit whey drainage. Higher temperatures promote gas formation and excessive moisture loss; the forms can be turned several times to promote even drainage.
After draining is finished, the cheeses are removed from the forms and dry salted with a fine layer rolled or sifted onto the cheeses with flake salt, such as Kosher Salt. Penicillium mold and other mixtures may be sprayed onto the cheese at this point (I added Penicillium mold to the milk).
In addition to the mold you may coat the cheeses with ash, you may wash the cheeses after the mold penetrates through the ash. It is possible to add kinds of nuts or dried fruits to the cheeses. Take a look:
Are those goat or cow milk?
Those cheeses are cow milk.
In the middle is a washed rind cheese aged for 8 weeks, it developed a very sharp taste, it even reminds goat cheese taste.
At the bottom is an 18 days old cheese, also a very good one.
Ah Alex they look lovely! I like fruits and nuts in my cheeses too.
My semi-lactic cheese turned out much better this time. I did a couple of things differently than what I said above. The curds weren't firm enough to ladle them directly into the molds. I had to drian them a bit first. Also, I mixed the salt into the curds instead of salting the surface of the formed cheese. Also, I added chives, garlic and black pepper to some of the cheese. Now I am aging it and waiting for the geo to form a surface.
Here are a few pics:
The set curds:
(http://www.nittanyweddings.com/images/christian/pot.JPG)
Scooping the curds:
(http://www.nittanyweddings.com/images/christian/curds.JPG)
The first scoop in the cheese cloth:
(http://www.nittanyweddings.com/images/christian/strainer.JPG)
Curds in the bowl awaiting salt:
(http://www.nittanyweddings.com/images/christian/bowl.JPG)
Cheese in the molds:
(http://www.nittanyweddings.com/images/christian/molds.JPG)
Cheese on the drying rack:
(http://www.nittanyweddings.com/images/christian/rack.JPG)
They look great, looking forward to updates!
I think I will drain them in cheese cloth first next time too. It is taking forever to drain in those little cups. AND I will use cows milk!
Thanks Alex!
Ido don't know why, when using cows milk and aging for a longer time, the taste reminds me of goats milks, it has a quite simmilar sharpness. It's recommended and much cheaper too.
I do not use any Geo in these cheeses, only Penicillum Candidum added to the milk.
Hey Alex ... I am wondering .. this recipe has no salt in it? How do you salt these little marshmellons? They are so fragile! How long do yo leave them sit out? Mind have been out for 2 days and they are still seepsing now that they are out of the little cups.
I warned you :D, it's sticky and messy. First I dry the curds by hanging in a cheese cloth for about 6 hours and then in moulds for about 48 hours.
They are very delicate, I salt them with a salt shaker.
Alex - just curious how long do you leave them out to dry before putting them in the "cave"? or do they go into the cave/refrigeration as soon as they come out of the mold?
Yes they are sticky! Now that I know what they are and what they do I can rethink my draining next time. This time I followed instructions - albeit loosey instructions. Draining first would have been sooooo much better than putting cures right into the little cups.
Right now they look like little raw buttermilk biscuits.
Quote from: siegfriedw on September 09, 2009, 07:32:28 PM
Alex - just curious how long do you leave them out to dry before putting them in the "cave"? or do they go into the cave/refrigeration as soon as they come out of the mold?
After pre-draining in cheese cloth, up to 48 hours in the moulds checking the cinsistency.
Alex, above you said:
QuoteAdd starter culture: EZAL MA series or MM series cultures are used. The EZAL MA series makes a tangy lactic curd and the MM series provides additional flavor from the L. diacetylactis and Leuconostoc bacteria (Mesophilic) added to the mix. ( I always use buttermilk as a meso starter).
For others, Ezal was a Rhodia Food Brand, Rhodia was bought by Danisco in 2004 (https://cheeseforum.org/Making/Culture_Manufacturers.htm), so my MM100 mesophilic starter culture that I bought in USA is badged under Danisco's Choozit Brand, although I think Danisco is still selling it under the Ezal Brand label depending on where you are in the world.
Anyhoo, few questions:
- Just so I get it straight, are you saying you can use a manufactured culture or buttermilk like you do, not both right?
- In your recipe/procedure, is the mold draining time on top of the hanging time?
- You say to turn the cheeses in mold yet for both yours and clherestian's I only see pictures of conical non-turned cheeses, normally when I turn I get a more cylindrical shape, or is the cheese that soft?
- Lastly, we have our house air conditioner set here in humid Houston summer for 25C/77F (https://cheeseforum.org/Bits_Bites/Units_Convert.htm#Temp_C) (actually 78 in day 76 at night). Is this too high and I risk "gas formation and excessive moisture loss" and therefore should I wait until colder weather before trying?
TIA (https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,243.0.html), John.
Quote from: John (CH) on September 10, 2009, 10:21:00 AM
Alex, above you said:QuoteAdd starter culture: EZAL MA series or MM series cultures are used. The EZAL MA series makes a tangy lactic curd and the MM series provides additional flavor from the L. diacetylactis and Leuconostoc bacteria (Mesophilic) added to the mix. ( I always use buttermilk as a meso starter).
For others, Ezal was a Rhodia Food Brand, Rhodia was bought by Danisco in 2004 (https://cheeseforum.org/Making/Culture_Manufacturers.htm), so my MM100 mesophilic starter culture that I bought in USA is badged under Danisco's Choozit Brand, although I think Danisco is still selling it under the Ezal Brand label depending on where you are in the world.
Anyhoo, few questions:
- Just so I get it straight, are you saying you can use a manufactured culture or buttermilk like you do, not both right?
- In your recipe/procedure, is the mold draining time on top of the hanging time?
- You say to turn the cheeses in mold yet for both yours and clherestian's I only see pictures of conical non-turned cheeses, normally when I turn I get a more cylindrical shape, or is the cheese that soft?
- Lastly, we have our house air conditioner set here in humid Houston summer for 25C/77F (https://cheeseforum.org/Bits_Bites/Units_Convert.htm#Temp_C) (actually 78 in day 76 at night). Is this too high and I risk "gas formation and excessive moisture loss" and therefore should I wait until colder weather before trying?
TIA (https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,243.0.html), John.
The recipe is one I found anywhere, I don't remember, and I use it as a reference.
Cultures: I never used manufactured cultures, only store bought buttermilk or yogurt. Of course you have to use only one of them, the manufactured or buttermilk.
The mold draining time is on top of the hanging time.
Turning the cheeses: Not always turning is needed, it seems due to the earlier draining when hung. Have a tip: I use to shape the fheese with my hands after unmoulding.
25C is fine for the rippening stage (@24 C for 15-20 hours) and the hung drying. In the summer we have here simmilar temps. Usualy I keep the cheeses in moulds about 24 hours untill I see no more dripping (up to 48 hours).
Ah okay so keeping them in the cups for 2 days to drain was not overly excessive. I had had mine out of the cups for about 24 hours and since salting with the salt shaker they are feeling damp yet again.
I noticed someone asked where the recipe is from. It is from P. Dixon's website:
http://www.dairyfoodsconsulting.com/recipes_lactic.shtml (http://www.dairyfoodsconsulting.com/recipes_lactic.shtml)
Also, here are some update pics of my cheeses. These are the ones without the added ingredients, and they are about two weeks old. I used geo 13 instead of p. candidum like Alex, so that is why our rinds look so different.
There is one curious thing happening. Before the curds were fully set, I skimmed off most of the cream, but I didn't get it all. Then I aged my cheeses on plastic matting and didn't turn them, so they they didn't develop rinds on the bottoms. Now a substance that I take to be the remaining cream is leaking from the cheeses from under the bottom edge of the rind. I just wipe it up daily.
It seems that you are right about the recipe's source, as I said, I couldn't remember. I do not skim the milk for this cheese, I use 3.5-3.8% raw milk.
Anyway, strange looking cheeses (for me, as I never used Geo 13), let us know how they taste.
Ah I have that recipe in my database I though it looked familuar. Never tried it though - I will.
clherestian,
Judging from the photos, it's not cream leaking out, but liquified cheese. It appears as though you have a thick yeast rind, caused normally by insufficient drying or excessive humidity during the early days of aging. If it is toad skin the rind will get skin like and when you grab the cheese it will "slip" off the interior cheese. Once this happens there's no going back. The resulting cheese is very strong with heavy ammonia.
Francois description is exactly what happened to my first few batches of Crottin - and I am pretty sure it was due to insufficient drying before aging.
I believe it was liquid cheese. I cut one of these open last night, and there was liquid cheese under top of the rind, too. The rind doesn't slip completely off the cheese, but it is too loose.
Francois -
You are probably right that the cheese didn't reach sufficient dryness. I think I can remedy that by hanging it a bit longer. I also might have put too much geo in the milk - about 1/8 tsp for 2 gallons of milk. Next time I will cut in half. What do you think? You are probably also right that the cheese is being aged in too moist of an environment. They are aging in the same container as my washed rind cheeses - about 95% humidity. What humidity should these fresh geo 13 rind cheeses be aged at?
I am actually struggling with the same issue myself. We have some trial cheese that are crotin like and the room we use for aging is the most humid room in the plant. We use it because it's one of the only rooms with no or few blue cheeses in it. Unfortunately I have to watch the cheese like a hawk and constantly roll the racks from chiller to chiller to get things growing but not let the geo get out of hand. The cheese spent last night in a dry cool chiller, which I thought would work to keep the geo down but it got too cold overnight. There wasn't a high enough temp for the molds to pop up. I moved the rack to a warm, dry room (for swiss) and heopfully that will arrest the geo until the mold gets growing. As you all have discovered, once that rumply yeast gets a foot hold it's impossible to turn back. Right now it's just starting on the bottoms of these cheeses, fingers crossed I don't have to remake these damn little things.
Now you all know why I hate making these frilly little things.
Well they are a PITA for what you get. They look cute though. Does it have to be tiny? I mean could you make like a 3 pound crottin? Probably be imposible to drain though huh?
It's not impossible, it's called humboldt fog.
Ah you must like that stuff you've mensioned it twice now. I think I was an advertisment for it online somehwhere.
It's my all time favorite cheese. So simple but so incredibly complex at the same time. I know how to make it but I can't imagine having to do it, it must be technically very, very difficult. They must have a trick to draining it.
Imagine a 5# cake of chevre covered in white mold. It has an ash layer through the center, but that is unimportant to me. The taste is one of the best chevs I've ever had but the format is just astonishing.
I will have to look for this. You make it sound delicious!
It is delicious. I have had it and also a similar small version from an NC cheesemaker - she doesn't call it the same name but it is very similar.
I just had to toss another batch of crottins due to the rind problems discussed above so I am getting frustrated to but I have a ready source of milk so I will keep trying. I need to get this down before I get licensed.
My next try at these was more successful in that they didn't develop the toad skin. I believe this was due to draining the curds for almost 24 hours and then packing them into the forms instead of draining for only an hour or so.
I also cut down the amount of starter, which improved the taste. For two gallons of milk, I used a little under 1/8 tsp of MM100.
There is one thing I don't like about the cheese body. It was a little too "airy." P. Dixon says to drain at 68-72 deg F, and that the higher temps promote gas production. Mine were at least 72 deg most of the time and for several hours were 75+ because the oven was being used and it was hot outside.
I made these for the fourth time yesterday. Now that is has cooled down outside, I set my thermostat to 70 so the cheese should be exactly that temp the whole time. We'll see if that improves the consistency of the body.
Moved Kelley's post on Morbier cheese to new thread (https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,1947.0.html).
Hi. I know this thread is old but I have been having similar issues so thought I would give it a go...
I have had many attempts at getting my crottins to drain properly but nearly always end up with a cheese that is too moist and a breakdown layer under the skin. I am wondering what the critical rennetting and drain points are for this type of cheese?
I add culture usually an MA series, add CaCl then add a very small amount of rennet an hour or so later. Let it mature overnight then scoop into mould the next day. Sometimes I get a lot of whey on top of the curd before scooping and sometimes not.
Draining takes at least 2 days. Being high rainfall high humidity area I drain in a 20oC air con room but even so I still get rind formation before the cheese is adequately drained.
Any suggestions?
Thanks.
Paul.