I've seen a few clothbound cheddars where wild mold got inside their paste which ruined them. I also noticed some British clothbound cheddars with some internal mold. I didn't want that to happen to my first clothbound cheese so I decided to spray it with a mold and yeast solution that contains Danisco Penicillium Candidum and Geotrichum Candidum. From my experience, they give a mushroomy flavor while wild mold can give a musty flavor and they don't penetrate into the cheese. Aging this cheese was straightforward, I didn't have to worry about maintaining a specific humidity and no need to brush away foreign molds. I just put the cheese inside a small ripening box and I only remove the condensation below the lid daily. Humidity is easily over 90% which allowed the growth of some blue mold and B. linens which weren't detrimental. The commercial mold/yeast culture mostly dominated the surface of the cheese and it never developed an ammonia smell.
I used homemade ghee because I had no lard on hand. It is impressive how effective the coating of fat on the cheese in preserving its moisture. At 6 months of age, the cheese has a buttery and pliable texture and only has a thin rind. I think it could've aged for 10-12 months with minimal moisture loss. As for its flavor, the inner paste of the cheese has a sharp cheddar flavor with a subtle brown butter note while the paste near the rind is nutty and mushroomy. The rind though has a strong funky and earthy flavor which reminds me of the rind of a Tomme de Savoie. This cheese was pressed for only 5 hours with a maximum weight of 52 lbs, weighed 1.76 kg and had a pH of 5.2 after pressing then it was stored in the fridge to halt pH drop. An ambient temperature of over 90 f can be an advantage when making cheese. Significantly shorter pressing time, less weight needed when pressing and faster acidification. Total make time was only almost 13 hours.
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I've been waiting excitedly for this update :-) No surprise from me that it looks perfect. Great job! Curious to know your thoughts on how this might compare to a 6 month old cheese that had the same treatment, but without the cloth. It seems likely the cloth is doing a good job of keeping the rind thin, but I wonder if is also limiting flavor changes in the rind.
Thanks! I actually plan to make a cheddar that is coated in ghee without cloth similar to Hafod. I will share my results in the future. I agree, the cloth did a good job of keeping the rind thin. I think the generous coating of ghee also helped. I poured the melted ghee on the cheese covered with cheese cloth using a spoon. Others dip the cloth in melted lard and they also brush the lard on the cheese. Despite being wrapped in cloth and coated in ghee, the flavor/aroma of the mold still permeated into the cheese which surprised me because an acquaintance of mine tried my method twice and his cheddar and cheshire had no mushroomy flavor.
That is one gorgeous looking cheese, so a C4U!
I did an experiment last week and made two identical Red Leicesters - I coated one with muslin and lard and the other with two coats of PVA . Both are in a humidity chamber at 93% and around 10C. I don't enjoy the muslin /lard process - it's messy and sometimes smelly. PVA provides a semi permeable membrane which stops mould growth on the exterior. It certainly needs a humid environment to stop drying out but it's much easier to apply and I'm just curious to see how the two cheeses differ. Your Cheddar looks great with a clear faultless paste. At the moment I can achieve 90+ % humidity just from the cheeses - there are around 10 maturing in a cube made of polyethylene storage material . The temperature is a bit low but in the spring it will rise. It's just annoying to have to wait 9 months for a result .. - c'est la vie !
Quote from: broombank on November 25, 2023, 09:10:10 AM
I did an experiment last week and made two identical Red Leicesters - I coated one with muslin and lard and the other with two coats of PVA . Both are in a humidity chamber at 93% and around 10C. I don't enjoy the muslin /lard process - it's messy and sometimes smelly. PVA provides a semi permeable membrane which stops mould growth on the exterior. It certainly needs a humid environment to stop drying out but it's much easier to apply and I'm just curious to see how the two cheeses differ. Your Cheddar looks great with a clear faultless paste. At the moment I can achieve 90+ % humidity just from the cheeses - there are around 10 maturing in a cube made of polyethylene storage material . The temperature is a bit low but in the spring it will rise. It's just annoying to have to wait 9 months for a result .. - c'est la vie !
Thanks! I intentionally didn't press the cheese that long so its pH will be at 5.1-5.2 to get a smooth and pliable paste. I don't really like a crumbly cheddar. I also don't enjoy the clothbinding process. Too much work, the ghee isn't cheap, it's messy and greasy. I am hesitant to use lard because of its smell while the ghee has a nice brown butter smell. I also rely on the cheese for humidity, I use a small ripening box to ensure humidity is over 90% which will reduce moisture loss during aging. I really want to use PVA but it is not available here. I like the fact it has a mold inhibitor. Clothbound cheddar can grow all kinds of bad stuff on it and they have the potential to impart their flavor in your cheese. Keep us updated on your experiment.
the biggest problem with cheese making is the enormous delay before we get feedback. Very few people remember to repost when the cheese is mature. I will do my best to meet your request Aris. Cheese and yogurt making ( www.cheeseandyogurt.co.uk (http://www.cheeseandyogurt.co.uk) ) sell food standard PVA and ship overseas.
Yeah especially cheeses like Parmesan which needs over 12 months to age so I try to make it 2-3 times a year. I rarely make cheddar and this is my third cheddar and my first attempt at a clothbound. I am lucky it turned out great. I felt bad when others aged their clothbound for 6-12 months and it turned out a failure. Thank you very much for the link. Their product selection is decent, some of their products are cheaper than cheesemaking.com and they sell 1 kg PVA coating at a low price. The shipping is also cheaper.
Quote from: Aris on November 25, 2023, 10:37:23 PM
Clothbound cheddar can grow all kinds of bad stuff on it and they have the potential to impart their flavor in your cheese.
I wouldn't say it's "bad stuff", at least not in the sense of being a health risk. The funk it imparts is sort of the point... it can be very enjoyable (if you enjoy that sort of thing). If you don't like the funk flavors maybe vacuum bagging is a good option for you?
in my experience vacuum bagging and waxing completely change the nature of the cheese and make it much softer and moister. It no longer tastes like an artisanal cheddar. The great advantage of PVA is it breathes like a cloth bound but without the mess.
Quote from: B e n on November 28, 2023, 03:41:33 PM
Quote from: Aris on November 25, 2023, 10:37:23 PM
Clothbound cheddar can grow all kinds of bad stuff on it and they have the potential to impart their flavor in your cheese.
I wouldn't say it's "bad stuff", at least not in the sense of being a health risk. The funk it imparts is sort of the point... it can be very enjoyable (if you enjoy that sort of thing). If you don't like the funk flavors maybe vacuum bagging is a good option for you?
I mean it has the potential to grow bad stuff and penetrate into the cheese like the pictures below. I've also read complaints from others complaining of musty/moldy flavor despite no or minimal mold penetration in their clothbound cheese. I don't want any of that musty/moldy flavor that is why I used P. Candidum and G. Candidum. I actually enjoyed this clothbound cheddar a lot mainly because of its complexity. It is definitely better than my previous vacuum bagged cheddar.
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Quote from: Aris on November 29, 2023, 11:17:49 AM
I mean it has the potential to grow bad stuff and penetrate into the cheese like the pictures below.
I actually enjoyed this clothbound cheddar a lot mainly because of its complexity. It is definitely better than my previous vacuum bagged cheddar.
I'm confused, are you talking about the same cheese or two different ones?
Quote from: B e n on November 29, 2023, 03:22:32 PM
Quote from: Aris on November 29, 2023, 11:17:49 AM
I mean it has the potential to grow bad stuff and penetrate into the cheese like the pictures below.
I actually enjoyed this clothbound cheddar a lot mainly because of its complexity. It is definitely better than my previous vacuum bagged cheddar.
I'm confused, are you talking about the same cheese or two different ones?
When I said "This clothbound cheddar", I am talking about mine. I started this thread, look at the top post.
QuoteIf you don't like the funk flavors maybe vacuum bagging is a good option for you?
The confusing part is you seem critical of me even though I actually enjoyed my clothbound cheddar a lot lol. Read the post properly next time.
Yeah, I'm with Aris on this one. I avoid cloth binding because I perceive it to be *more difficult* than simply doing a more ordinary natural rind. It's relatively easy for things to go spectacularly wrong and have no idea because the cloth is hiding what's happening under the hood. Adding a rind treatment so that you get something really aggressive, but beneficial on the outside seems like a good idea to me.
Quote from: Aris on November 29, 2023, 05:00:36 PM
Quote from: B e n on November 29, 2023, 03:22:32 PM
Quote from: Aris on November 29, 2023, 11:17:49 AM
I mean it has the potential to grow bad stuff and penetrate into the cheese like the pictures below.
I actually enjoyed this clothbound cheddar a lot mainly because of its complexity. It is definitely better than my previous vacuum bagged cheddar.
I'm confused, are you talking about the same cheese or two different ones?
When I said "This clothbound cheddar", I am talking about mine. I started this thread, look at the top post.
QuoteIf you don't like the funk flavors maybe vacuum bagging is a good option for you?
The confusing part is you seem critical of me even though I actually enjoyed my clothbound cheddar a lot lol. Read the post properly next time.
I did not mean to come across as critical. I was truly confused, you posted pics of one cheese and were talking about another, I evidently did not catch the transition. Sorry to have upset you. Your product is lovely, thanks for taking the time to show the successes and failures.
When I mentioned vacuum bagging it was in response to the PVA cheese coating, I don't see the difference between PVA coating and vac bagging. I guess PVA has an anti fungal, but you can see through the vac bags.
Not upset, just confused about your comment. I showed examples of the bad things that can happen in a clothbound cheddar. I like funk but not all molds are good. There is a reason commercial bloomy rind cheese and almost all blue cheese use selected strains of mold. My friend who is a professional cheesemaker in NY is very particular about her Clothbound cheddar and there are specific molds that she doesn't want growing on it. I am also very particular, I design my own cheeses and in this cheese, I don't want to deal with wild molds because they have the potential to burrow into the paste and they typically have a musty smell. To be clear, I said bad stuff as in they can give bad flavor (musty) and taste (bitter/acrid) and those 2 cheeses aren't mine. Although there are people who are allergic to certain types of mold so there can be some health risk. From my experience, vacuum bagging tends to promote the growth of calcium lactate on the rind which can give an off flavor and looks unsightly. Whey seepage from the cheese inside the bag is another issue which can make the cheese bitter if not removed. Newly opened vacuum bagged cheese can also have a funky flavor in the beginning. I think using PVA eliminates all of those issues I mentioned. I still vacuum pack cheese because it is cheap and convenient.
in response to Ben - PVA coated cheese breathes like clothbound so the cheese doesn't get over damp, but it needs humidity management. Shrink wrap and wax can't breathe so the texture is quite different - much softer. I also don't like the shiny oily exterior of a vacuum packed cheese. I think the easiest way to compare is to buy some supermarket vacuum packed and then get the same cheese as a piece of an artisanal cloth bound from a good cheese shop. This can be a bit of a revelation!
Ian,
I agree especially about texture. I also noticed that vac bagged cheese has more moisture even if it is supposed to be a low moisture cheese. It tends to be "moist". My clothbound cheddar has better texture, it has a bit of dryness which I find pleasant and at the same time it is buttery.
absolutely - you've put your finger on it there Aris. Many people don't have access to the best artisanal cheddar - Quickes Pitchfork Kean Montgomery Hafod Mull - at least in the UK the supermarkets control the market and their skills as affineurs are minimal - shelf life is their only concern. So many amateur cheese makers are shooting blind - only armed with a recipe but with little idea what it is they are trying to make. Currently I am addicted to Red Fox - a vintage Red Leicester from Belton farms. It is my goal to make a cheese as tasty as that.
Thank you for the explanation, for whatever reason my search terms on PVA didn't bring up a lot. My basic experience with PVA is in fine woodworking, and it is considered waterproof in that application so my brain went straight to a water barrier. Although I have used it as an end coating for slab milling and had great luck with it, so i should have realized that it is breathable. I took its usefulness for granted. Most of my cheeses are natural rind, with vacuum bags for the problem cheeses(limited experience). The moisture and greasy cheese problem is a thing. i will look into PVA coatings more, it seems like they would fill a niche in my processes.
I have come round to them as they seem to eliminate some of the major problems associated with clothbound while retaining the breathing ability which makes the finished cheese much drier and harder. I also discovered how widely they are used in the industry particularly with Gouda in the Netherlands. A friend who makes commercial cheese here near me is using them as well as clothbound and so far the results look promising.
Quote from: broombank on November 28, 2023, 09:19:40 PM
in my experience vacuum bagging and waxing completely change the nature of the cheese and make it much softer and moister. It no longer tastes like an artisanal cheddar. The great advantage of PVA is it breathes like a cloth bound but without the mess.
Same thoughts as most above - been doing lard and clothbound for many of my gouda styles (i know - not traditional - but early this year my cheese cave was not suitable to set up natural rinds and i dislike the waxing process). PVA arriving this weekend so will try it out and see how it goes
Question - when do you apply the PVA - same time as you would vac pack or wax?
Trent
yes roughly - because it breathes your cheese should be dry but still moist. I use two layers but a professional cheesemaker friend uses four. Expect it to go white underneath if you leave it on a shelf but it will eventually be transparent ( I use the white plain variety ) Wait for each side to dry before you turn it over. This takes about 6 hours or overnight . I apply it with a silicone brush.
Thanks! Just applied two layers to mine and will see how it goes (only could get red)... will compare the lard wrapped one with the cream wax one in about 3 months
Trent