I just started making cheese ( pepper jack and a manchego ) both ageing now. I am waiting to try them to see if I am making good tasting cheeses. I just bought 3 gallons of whole milk at sams club last night to make a Havarti where I met a friend who has goats, I inquired about getting some goat's milk in the future and he told me his brother has a couple cows. well his brother called me last night and he will sell me raw cows milk for $ 3.00 a gallon. My questions are: Do I need to pasteurize? Should I mix it with the store bought milk or just make 2 separate cheeses? Do I need to do anything different when using raw milk?( less rennet less starter culture etc.) He said his milk has a high fat content do I need to skim a little cream off ? What is the difference in the final cheese using raw milk as compared to store bought.
I only make cheese from raw milk, from my own cow. I know my own practices, I know how clean she is and I know how healthy she is. Therefore, I don't feel a need to pasturize my milk before drinking it or using it to make cheese.
If you do make cheese with it and it is aged for more than 60 days, you won't need to pasturize, either, because the developing acidity in the cheese will be enough to kill off any microorganisms anyway. I would not mix the milk, as the store milk usually requires the addition of calcium chloride for cheesemaking, while raw milk does not.
As to the skimming question, it depends on the type of cheese you are making. When I make cheddar types, I leave all the cream on. When I make mozzerella or parmesan, I skim the cream.
I will let someone else address the "difference" question, as I've never used pasturized milk for cheesemaking.
Have fun with it! $3 a gallon is downright cheap for raw milk, IMHO.
Your are correct that $3.00 Per gallon is a real good price for raw milk but it's far more than a commercial dairy gets paid for their milk when they wholesale it.
It is even a good price for any milk. I know it costs me more than $3/ gallon to produce my own but I am small scale.
This is part of the reason all the small dairies are going out of business.
With regards to "raw" milk vs pasteurized the debate continues but there are many cheese "Experts" who will swear that raw milk is better - and it makes sense to me.
The Weston Price foundation is a big advocate for raw milk see http://www.westonaprice.org (http://www.westonaprice.org)
and if you want to know specifically about the benefits of raw milk as they relate to cheese check out this site: http://www.rawmilkcheese.org/index_files/aboutus.htm (http://www.rawmilkcheese.org/index_files/aboutus.htm)
I will jump on the raw milk bandwagon. I only use raw milk from my own goats. Like Karen, I know they are clean and healthy. IMHO pasteurised, homogenized, factory-farm milk is bad for you.
I make yogurt primarily and non aged fresh cheeses. I am thinking of getting another goat and branching out into aged cheeses but haven't been too pleased with my results at several attempts thus far.....
Pam
I definately prefer raw milk for my cheeses. I don't have a cow or a goat but I do get it from licensed certified dairies that are tested regualarly.
Adding my newbie observations - I seem to get a higher yield when I use raw milk verses pasteurized milk. But that may also be partially determined by the animal the milk comes from (my raw milk is from Jersey cows while most store-bought pasteurized milk is from Holsteins).
Raw milk is the only way to go if you can get it. Much firmer curd, much better yield, MUCH better flavor. The only downside is that raw milk tends to change with the seasons, weather, field that they are grazing in, lactation cycles, etc. So your cheeses may not be a consistent as they would be with processed milk. The other downside (Oh well there are 2 ::) ) is the cost. At least in my area, raw milk runs about $6 a gallon unless you "BUTTER" up to a farmer and maybe trade a little bit. Store bought milk can be had at Kroger's for just $2 a gallon. The old caveat - "You get what you pay for" is definitely true.
Well the other thing about $2.00 store milk is the contamination with antibiotics and growth hormones fed to the cattle on the feed lot "dairies". I shudder every time I go past one of those "dairies" and see the inhumane situation the cattle are in; standing around in manure filled paddocks in the sun or crowded under a too small pole building shade structure in groups of 200 or more. The flies are numerous outside the pesticide-sprayed boundary and the stench is overwhelming for miles which ever way the wind is blowing. Wholesome raw milk makes better everything. From yogurt to cheese to baked goods.
I agree with you Pam!
..and when a cheese doesn't turn out as well as expected, it's easy to blame it on the milk or pasteurization or homogenization. The problem may actually be residual antibiotics (or growth hormones) and not the milk itself. Mother Nature makes good stuff. We should quit messing with her stuff. :D
Cant agree more with the last few posts. That's why I have my own dairy goat herd. ;)
Ok, now I have to pipe up. Firstly, there are no antibiotics in store bought milk. It's illegal and every farmers samples are tested before the tankers are unloaded in every state in the US. Secondly rBGH is hardly used in the US at this point and some labeling requirements do exist. It is very unlikely that the milk you purchase contains it. Thirdly there are considerable numbers of certified organic dairies that are disgusting feed lot dairies, operated by the same corporations that produce ceonverntional milk. I formerly owned and operated a raw milk dairy and I can tell from my own experience that there are raw milk dairies that are just as disgusting and unsafe as feed lots.
I always usd to tell my customers you need to know your farmer and know where the milk comes from. See the operation, the animals and the equipment.
The plant I work in now uses only pastuerized milk. We produce award winning cheeses that are shipped world wide. We consistently place along side raw milk cheese at competitions, even beating out some of the traditional makers for categories such as parmesan. It is possible to produce incredible cheeses with pasteurized milk and it's possible to produce inedible glop with raw milk. It depends on the skill of the cheesemaker.
Francois, you're absolutely right about the corporate run "organic" dairies. In my opinion, the concept of "certified organic" (milk or vegetables) has become nothing more than a marketing scam. The rules have been slanted towards the corporate farms in a way that excludes or makes it really difficult for good, small farmers to qualify. Here in Kentucky most organic farmers are choosing not to become "certified". So, you're right - know your farmer. I buy from a woman that has just 2 Jersey cows that produce about 50 gallons a week.
Our local food co-op swears that their organic milk is better because it doesn't contain antibiotics or rBGH. I appreciate your valuable insight and I will definitely discuss this with the co-op. The real irony is that their organic milk probably comes from the same corporate milk processors that supply cheap milk to the regular grocery stores.
I have used both raw and pasteurized and I really like the creaminess better from the raw milk cheeses. Maybe I just like the extra cream in my cheese. ???
I do agree that some organic farmers are not clean and sanitary about their production. I drove by a few while looking for milk. Poor cows were covered in muck and flies and didn't look happy at all. I couldn't encourage animal crulety like that.
The lady I have been getting it from lately is almost neurotic about her farm. I would almost consider eatting from any surface in her milking barn. I never saw such a pretty, bright,cheery, spotless barn! Actually it's nicer than my house. Very homey. The weird part is there is no manure smell anywhere around the farm. I drove by it twice thinking it was just some rich folks place but it was a just a beautiful farm well manicured spotless, odorless farm with a wooden covered bridge at the head of the driveway. They are quite proud of their farm and rightfully so.
Deb,
Are the initials of the farm B.B.? I would wager most anything they are. The owners are very, umm, unique people. They approached me about buying milk from them for our plant, but I had a more affordable source I trusted.
In CT your dairy has to be clean enough to eat off any surface to pass inspection for grade A raw. Couple that with the fact that the privately owned ones are usually owned by people who are very passionate about milk and you get a very high quality milk out of the operation.
Francous you are right on- as usual! I LOVE their milk! Best tasting Milk I had since I was a kid. And LOTS of cream just like ours was. She will test my stainless steel jugs before she lets me bring them in to fill them. I haven't met him yet just the "aunts."
She's do for her first baby any day if she hasn't dropped it already.
Francois, I certainly agree that organic feed lot dairies are no better than their non-organic counterparts. I don't patronize them either.
However, I am afraid I must disagree with you on the topic of chemicals in milk. Milk from BGH-injected cows is more likely to contain dangerous residues of the more than 80 different drugs, many of them antibiotics, used as daily maintenance and to treat sick cows. The FDA and the dairy industry claim that they test milk for drug contamination. But this testing is wholly inadequate. They only look for a few of the scores of drugs actually administered to dairy cows. Furthermore, the FDA allows drug-contaminated milk to be sold as long as the residues are at a "safe" level. These so-called "safe" levels have been shown to cause increases in drug resistant strains of virulent diseases. So for example, if you drank milk that had residues of eurythymicin in it, then bacteria in your stomach could pick up resistance to that eurythymicin so that if you came down with an illness you wouldn't be able to use eurythymicin to treat it. From infancy to adulthood, people are dosed with antibiotic residues that contaminate baby formula, milk, cheese, and other dairy products.
And as for bovine growth hormone (which is still used extensively in America):
Monsanto is the giant chemical company which sells the synthetic hormone under the brand name Posilac. Monsanto has consistently rejected the concerns of scientists around the world. It's the company position that milk produced by injecting cows with Prosilac is safe, despite scientific studies which show the milk we're getting from BGH-treated cows has a higher level of IGF-1. IGF-1 is a hormone almost identical to human growth hormone. At normal levels it is the hormone responsible for normal human growth. At higher levels it is believed to promote cancer.
Keep in mind that:
Monsanto is the same company that convinced the government that PCB's were safe. Those were put inside electrical conductors and florescent light ballasts for years until researchers in Japan and Sweden showed serious hazards to human health and the environment. And you've heard of Agent Orange, 2-4-5-T, the defoliant that the United States used in Vietnam? Monsanto convinced the government it, too, was safe. It was later proven to be extremely harmful to humans, and a government investigator found what she said was "a clear pattern of fraudulent content in Monsanto's research" which led to approval.
In the case of BGH, Monsanto was required to promptly report all complaints from farmers. In the Florida study area, dairyman Charles Knight, among others, says he was complaining loud and clear that Posilac was decimating his herd with serious udder infections and hoof and hock and tumor problems. He had to replace 75% of his herd. But four months later he found the company had not passed a one of his complaints to the FDA as required.
Yada, yada, yada... Sorry about the rant but I am simply against endangering the worlds food supply in the name of increased profits for agribusiness.
Yes it is a complicated topic and yes, federal liscensing, transport and sales of milk is different than state level. I never have had a federal licensce but I can tell you in the state I had a dairy, it was completely illegal to sell any milk with antibiotics in it and each load from each farm was tested. This is industry standard. The levels to set off the antibiotic tests are 1 part per billion. I suppose if you had lower levels than that it would show clear. I was also required to sample every batch of milk processed into cheese, even if it had been previously tested at the farm. Lastly, I challenge you to make cheese with antibiotic contaminated milk, it simply doesn't work at all or you get an unuseable mess.
I am also no fan of Monsanto and I'm sure some herds use rBGH but I know first hand that in my state only 1 herd used it up util last year.
My main point was really that you should know where your milk comes from if you want to really know the quality of it and that no one producer or part of the industry can be broadly brush stroaked as "bad".
Francois- you some good points that I have to agree with. The key one being know your farmer :-) if you are buying from the farm.
My other point was against some of the retail stores- and I agree that you cant broadly say one part of the industry is bad - while the processing may be controlled and tested you don't know what happens from the time it leaves the bottling plant until it actually ends up on the cooler shelf.
Thanks for the input Francois; and you are right. It all boils down to knowing the source of food and how it is handled, knowing the chemical companies involved and their reputations, and in the case of factory farming, knowing the cruelty inflicted on the animals.
For someone who is trying to have their cheeses be consistent from season to season, the differences in raw milk throughout the year could be a concern. I personally enjoy the rhythms of the year that I am now starting to see related to the milking year as well.
We have a newish neighbor who is running an organic dairy. I wouldn't buy milk that I knew came from his farm. He is in it just to get the money - bought an old dairy farm that is very rundown and only did the minimum to get his cows in there. Regulations say that they have to "graze" for a certain number of hours a day, but he has about 40 cows on 3 acres of barely-to-be-seen grass.
Last year, we called animal control because he had two draft horses in a round pen that was about 15 feet across with a round bale in the center of it. The horses were halfway up their legs in manure and mud. The heifers in the next pen were in just about as bad an environment.
"Organic" is a term that has made a few people rich because the "masses" aren't aware. It doesn't mean clean, healthy and natural by any means.
You are so right. Why are humans like this? Never mind, I know the answer.
Pam
At our local Farm Bureau Co-op the bovine growth hormones are sold. Both for dairy and meat, in varying dosages, on one of those freestanding wire racks that turn. The bolus injectors are sold on a shelf next to the rack. Now if they are selling them, then local farmers are buying them. There is a large dairy processing plant just 35 miles down the road from us. Makes me so grateful for our herd of goats.
That's why "ORGANIC" has become such a marketing scam. Unless you know the farmer, you can't tell the good from the bad. Most small farms in Kentucky are no longer trying to be "certified organic" because they feel that their best practices don't always agree with the rules. Case in point is the cow herd mentioned above "grazing" on just 3 acres of bare grass. That's NOT organic or even humane, yet they claim to be an organic dairy.
I got into cheese making after reading "Animal, Vegetable, Miracle" by Barbara Kingsolver. It chronicles her family's journey of eatting ONLY local food for a year. Simple? Not at all. Can't get fresh local tomatoes in January. Bananas are out of the question. It's a great read and changed the way that we look at our food sources.
I think I am an antique. I try to not eat or feed my family any processed foods whatsoever. I get grains in bulk, have my own egg, raise a cow for meat every 2 or 3 years and grow vegetables. I can't even remember the last fast food restaurant I ate at. I think it was in the 70's.
It is hard to eat only local food year round because people don't plant gardens and put up food the way my mom and grandma did. I do to some extent, but not the way I used to since my kids grew up and moved away. I used to can and freeze lots of veggies and fruit, stored cabbage, onions, squash, and apples, etc. and we ate those in the winter. (I can hear you thinking "that's great if you don't have to earn a living..." I owned and operated a white water rafting business during that time as well as being a single mom; very full time job!)
People in cities can't do this kind of subsistence farming anymore even if they knew how; there is no room and the soil is bad. So they have become dependant on the food industry. The food industry loves this. Did you know that there are food deserts in this country? City folks can't even choose to eat locally grown food because we no longer have urban areas surrounded by the farms that supported them like in the 40's. We have allowed all of the good farm land surrounding cities to become developed. The organic movement was great when it started but it has become an industry just the same as the rest.
It's a shame and I don't know what is to be done about it this late in the game.
Maybe we need to move this to a thread called futile ranting...
Pam, I'm an old hippie kayaker - been all over the world doing crazy stuff. Decided to back off after the Class 5-6 stuff got too "easy". So I kicked back, took up sailing and here I am making cheese. I love it. Where was your rafting company?
We were in West Virginia, USA. We ran the New, Bluestone, and Gauley Rivers. I did that for 15 years. As far as dairy products go, I only made yogurt then, having no time for cheese making. I am trying that now.
Wow. Small world. I have boated all over WV, but never got around to the Bluestone. What was your company called? I know several owners or previous owners.
Quote from: pam on September 14, 2009, 02:18:00 PM
We were in West Virginia, USA. We ran the New, Bluestone, and Gauley Rivers. I did that for 15 years. As far as dairy products go, I only made yogurt then, having no time for cheese making. I am trying that now.
I want to move to West Virginia when retire! I love it there!
Almost Heaven Debi.... I may move back later to retire, maybe start a goat dairy.... still have land there.... hmmm
It was New River Scenic Whitewater Tours. We were based in Hinton and had an outpost in Glen Jean, near the Gorge. The Bluestone was seasonal and when we were flooded off the Gorge, we went there as it was in our back yard. A very remote very steep class 5 river at flood stage.
Pam -
I play John Denver in my car everyday. Reminds me why I have to go to work everyday. There is a light at the end of the tunnel!
ALMOST Heaven??? Why did you leave??? The Bluegrass of Kentucky is on the edge of the mountains just 3 hours from Fayette Station. My favorite run in that area was the Upper Meadow, although the gorge at 9 feet was a hoot.
So, Pam, did you ever eat at Country Roads Inn near Summersville? Old colonial house in the middle of nowhere owned by an Italian family. No menu. 5 course meal of whatever she felt like cooking that day. No liquor license so they GAVE you all the wine you could drink. Back when it was just $20 for the entire meal. Great Italian food. Always started with wine, cheese and Italian appetizers.
I don't recall ever seeing a single goat anywhere in WV.
Deb - John Denver was just a WV wannabe from Colorado. ;D
Well I just a WV wannbe from Connecticut!
I have eatten at Coutry Roads! Great food and wonderful folks!
Never ate there; always too busy cooking food for my own guests! Why I left is a long story not suitable for this discussion board. I used to teach swift water rescue with the boys from Class VI and the Park Service on the middle Meadow at lower water.
The Gorge at 27ft now THAT's a hoot!
I am one of the few people who have successfully run Sandstone Falls -27 ft drop (on purpose) in a raft. New was about 30 or so ft above normal that day.
We keep the goats hidden!
Debi, I get to WV quite often. Perhaps we will see each other there. It's not a big state.
Very, VERY cool. That's the highest gorge run I have heard of. Makes me feel like a wimp. Ever do the Blackwater? I used to be a safety boater for Southeastern on Section IV of the Chattooga (Georgia). Forest Service requires at least one hard boater with every raft trip. So I would always be in the lead to set up ropes in a couple of tricky places. You get good really quickly doing that every day at every water level with no backup. Who rescues the safety boater? Nobody.... Damn, I'm gonna be nostalgic all day now. Almost Heaven, West Virginia, Blue Ridge Mountains, Shenandoah River..... hum ...... hum .....
OK, back to cheese stuff. This probably should be a new topic (Oh, Moderator?) but...
Can a restaurant like Country Roads Inn make and serve their own cheese legally? Especially if they don't charge for it. I know of several that do Mozz & Ricotta on the sly, but hard cheese is beyond their abilities. In the case of Country Roads, cheese is not on the menu. They give it to you as a part of the one price dinner package. They give you wine because they don't have a liquor license. So how would cheese be any different?
As many of us mere mortals have discovered, it is generally very difficult to get thru the bureaucratic hoops to be able to sell cheese the public. But, what if I were a contract employee for a restaurant, or 2, or 3. I would be making cheese for the restaurant and not the public per se.