Has anyone tried or heard of making larger cheeses using 5 gallon plastic buckets as their mold?
I was contemplating a possible Christmas cheddar with 20 gallons milk in my old beer brew kettle, then pressing in a 5 gallon plastic bucket drilled with holes. I assume I would get around 20 lbs. of cheese in a nice sized wheel.
Anyone contemplated doing something like this, done something like this, or worked out the logistics of an XL wheel of cheese done at home?
Baby Chee, member Wayne is your man, he's been building equipment towards that goal and finally made a 24 US gallon/91 liter cheddar (https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,1884.0.html) in August 2009.
There's also a thread here (https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,847.0.html) with his XL home equipment.
I've never made cheddar, but I think with the forces involved it would probably split a plastic bucket.
Ah! I seeeee. That is impressive, but it is far more complex than necessary, I think.
At this point I have a brew sculpture with propane that could do 30 gallons, but my problem would be once the curds come out. I would have to do it in stages, cheddar, then press. The plastic bucket might work, though. These are nicely thick, but might need lighter pressure over more time.
Just an idea at this time.
I would offer that my mould from Ullmers:
(http://www.ullmers-dairyequipment.com/images/Equipment/Cheesemolds/Hoop2.jpg) (http://www.ullmers-dairyequipment.com/cheesemolds.htm)
is pretty heavy duty. And I think that is important.
Here is why.
I used only 5 PSI in my press. But I do not think I pressed hard enough as the curd in the middle did not knit as nice as i would have liked... I think next time I will use a bit more PSI. I would like to increase the PSI from 5 to to about 6-10 PSI. I really think that is more appropriate for a wheel of cheddar this sized. So, across the surface area of my mould (83.3 square inches), that translates to 500-800lbs of totall down force. (500lbs/83.3sqin=6lbs/sqin)
I do not see a bucket being able to deal well with forces like that. Especially a bucket that has been drilled for drain holes. At best, I think the bucket would deform. At worst, it would split.
I've never tried it, i have no first hand experience, but that is my best guess. Sorry to be a downer..
Aw, that's sad to hear. I figured using the psi calculation from the simple 8" mold to an 11" bucket would give me a good 100-150 lbs. However, if you aren't getting results in the center of your wheel, it means a need for more pressure. Plastic buckets definitely won't take 300+ lbs. for long.
How many lbs. is your cheese after the molding?
23lbs final weight.
Wow. Nice.
I need it now. :P
That's a great superbowl party cheese.
Or Christmas family cheese.
I sense a lot of dieting in your family's future.
Baby Chee Ulmers has some really nice stainless steel molds for a good price. I got a few myself.
Web address for Ulmers???
http://www.ullmers-dairyequipment.com/cheesemolds.htm (http://www.ullmers-dairyequipment.com/cheesemolds.htm)
They are very nice people to deal with also.
New on the forum here but this topic is really why I joined. I generally make a 18-25 gallon batch of cheese each time and am trying to improve my pressing process. I made a dutch style press with a about a 3 foot arm so that 200 lbs of weight on the end of the arm would translate to 600 lbs on the piston. It worked great when I was making 6 inch cheeses or less but now I am really at the edge of its limits with an 8 inch hoop and 350 lbs (It looks like a disaster about to happen!). I have a 12 inch hoop but it just doesn't come together good enough with my setup so I know the problem is that my pressure is not great enough. I am in the process of designing a new one with a 10 foot arm but I just need some info about what exactly I am shooting for. I noticed that some of you mentioned needing a bigger hoop. I found a piece of pvc pipe 8 inches in diameter that I just cut to fit my press. I also had a local machinist roll my 12 inch hoop out of stainless steel. Is it really important to have holes in the pipe for drainage? I have alway just let it leak out the bottom an top and then pour it off when I flip it. Thanks in advance and I look forward to the input and interaction.
You will get a better press and consequentally better cheese if the whey can escape. With no holes the whey is almost forced back into the cheese.
Thank you for the input. My concern has been getting the cheese out of the hoop if the hoop has holes. I have seen the hoops you buy with the holes in them but I assumed that the pressure would force the cheese to bulge through the holes and it would be impossible to get it out. My cheeses always bulge out around the follower already (see picture). When I take it out of the press it is already a real chore to push it out of the cylinder. Thanks in advance for the help :)
I have not had much trouble getting the cheese out of moulds with side weep holes.
Some of my cheddars have been pressed with sufficient force to create "cheddar noodles" coming out those holes. Still, it was not tough to flip the cheese.
Thanks. i guess i will try drilling a few holes and see if it helps. Any suggestions on what size holes?
Very small holes the smaller the better.
Wrap your follower in a layer or 2 or 3 of cheesecloth to make it a tighter fit. Fold back the cloth in your mold, so the wrapped follower makes direct contact with the top of the cheese. This will eliminate seepage around the follower.
I would use a 1/8th inch or a tad smaller bit when drilling.
Ahh...I'm sorry. I just posted about using the food grade buckets on another topic. I didn't see this post. I apologize for being redundant.
I was also thinking...if you don't want such a wide diameter of cheese, you can always get out the Sawzall and cut around the bucket to create curved bands that could be used for an adjustable diam. hoop. You could make a follower out of the bottom of the bucket.
I just found my heaven.
Sailor Con Queso and other large experimenters might be interested...
(http://cityofclifford.com/Press1.jpg)
That's the Bain Marie I ordered recently. Used a cobalt drill tip on the bottom and it went WONDERFUL! Then it melted....and I got another out and THAT melted. WTF! It was on one spot of the bottom, so I think some imperfection is there which melted the bits. Before that one location, everything drilled fast and fine!! I have one bit left and I have to do the sides. -_-; We'll see how it goes.
(http://cityofclifford.com/Press2.jpg)
Then I began making my fulcrum press from $20 of materials. Just lumber, a few screws, 4 bolts (still to be installed), and a foot square paver stone. It's an hour from complete, but I need one more 2x4 for a side support connecting the cross back and the base in a triangle.
(http://cityofclifford.com/Press3.jpg)
The whole set up breaks down to three flat pieces! So I can pack it up against a wall somewhere and not have a 6' x 2' x 3' wooden monstrosity hanging around. We'll see how it goes. I also need a length of pipe on which to place weights.
Entire set up including bits: $80
Then I have to make a follower, which is a 9"+ piece of wood. Not expensive or difficult to make. There you are. This will give me 5 to 7 times the pressing power of my weights: I'll tell you precisely when I finish and have everything lined up. So if I get 100lbs. on there I can have perhaps 700lbs. pushing the cheese and giving me better psi than I currently achieve on a smaller mold. I can also do 30 gallon cheeses when this is complete! woo! Gouda and Cheddar are my plans, but maybe Swiss, Havarti, and others.
Ignore my post on the other thread. I just saw this one, Babychee. Wow, now you are talking! How wide across is the pot? 10 inches? This is a great idea being able to take it apart quickly and store it. I love the paver stone idea! built in grooves! Great! I am sure you know but remember that the closer the plunger is to the cross back the greater mechanical advantage. With a 10 inch pot you should be able to get it as close as 6 inches and still hit the middle of the pot. This means that with an 8 foot arm you would have a mechanical advantage of 16. And don't forget the weight of the arm too. It is equivalent to the whole arm weight (Just the boards) times half the mechanical advantage at the end. Just a thought that I pondered on when I was designing mine. Really great post!
Hey Farmer, you are enthused!
I didn't factor in the weight of the boards. They are just 6' 2x4s since 8' boards will be too big to prop up a wall in my house. I'll drill the hole for the plunger last, when I figure out the placement of the pot. The only problem is the draining--gotta mop it up. I wish I could get a foot square slab of granite or marble with a grove for draining sideways into a bowl. That's a future item, because that paver can be slid out in a second.
The BMPot is 9.25" diameter: I haven't measured it properly yet, but have to soon when I make the wood follower. It is almost 11" tall. I figured I could do 30 gallons in there, at least 20 I hope.
You can definitely do 20 and maybe 30 if you are doing cheddar but I doubt it with Gouda. The problem is not the finished size but the volume before pressing. You just can't get all the loose curd into the pot without it overflowing. You might could get it started with most of the curds and then add the rest but it probably would not be good for knitting. My 10 inch is 14 inches tall and I have about 3 inches left when doing 24 gallons so figure from there. Along your arm you could make different holes for your plunger and move it for bigger or smaller hoops. With six inches from the bolt to the plunger you still have an MA of 12.
How about running a 1/2 inch bead of silicone or even poly foam or even concrete around the top of the edge of the paver and into the grooves except for the outlet grooves. Just an idea. How big is that paver? 1 foot square? Do you have a router with a bowl bit. I may have something I can send ya.
Ah, so 20 definite, but 25 gallons and up gets speculative. What I could do is press some curds and load in more, but I am not sure how they will knit.
The idea of a buffer at the edges is good! I could just use caulk and make a small wall around the edges.
I have the idea I will have about 8" from pivot to plunger, and maybe 60" to the weights, so 7.5x. Could be more. I'm not approaching it with an extremely precise idea of what I am getting. If I can get 5x, I'm fine, but more is always better.
Pressing under whey will expel some whey in the curds and reduce the volume. You can also split the curds in half and do the first press light on 2 molds at once, then combine the two.
With a fulcrum that long, you could have 2 ramrods pressing 2 molds. Seen lots of old photos like this.
Baby - FYI - you will have 2 different mechanical advantages and 2 different PSIs if you use 2 ramrods.
That gets very complex. I started to wonder about side-by-side, which isn't very hard to do with a little support on the edges of the platform. I'll see how it goes with a 25 gallon gouda in mid-November.
Tomorrow I'll finish this press and try to make the follower.
You don't want to do it with 2 fulcrums. the physics is a nightmare not to mention impossible to get them to evenly carry the weight. I would have to see one to know it would work. with side by side though it would work great. Just divide the total weight by the sum of the areas but stacked would be even better with no loss in pressure.
If you lay out the moulds side by side, you double the follower surface area (Assuming same size cheese), and halve the PSI.
If you stack them, it remains the same.
(right?)
It's good to know the physics. I was in Civil Engineering in college but dropped out to pursue other careers... thank god.
All that PHIZZIKS stuff was lost to me a long time ago. I understand it, just never think of it or practice it.
Here's the (almost) finished item:
(http://cityofclifford.com/Press4.jpg)
It is 9" between rear joint and plunger joint, then 57" from plunger joint to the center of the weight bar.
That's about 6x pressure.
Farmer was right, though: coulda worked it to get 7 or more, but I wasn't going for the max, just getting it done.
6x is excellent.
I can hang a lot of weight off the end there to get me over 5psi easy on 25 gallon cheeses.
And I could get larger pots to do the deed for 45 gallon cheeses done in three pots.
I am short a $1.50 2x4 for the other side support. It all breaks down to a convenient, fold-against-walls, form:
(http://cityofclifford.com/Broke.jpg)
I have to also make a follower at 8.75 inches.
The inside of the Bain is 9" even, and I want the room around it to let the whey out.
About drainage... I was thinking today of just putting a large pot or bucket around the Bain-Mold to catch all the whey.
SO SIMPLE!
Maybe even a high walled cookie pan will do or plastic box, etc.
Heck, a plastic bag strung up to the arm will work as well.
Or I can caulk the block or get a nicer replacement block.
Anyway, there you go.
A $20 press that collapses to the sides of a garage or store room.
Wayne you are exactly right. That was what I was trying to say but didn't get it out right.
Baby chee, The mech advantage is calculated by measuring the full distance from weight to fulcrum and dividing by the distance from plunger to fulcrum. I am not sure but I think you figured it wrong. It should be 57+9 = 66 and then 66/9 = 7.3. Not a big deal unless you are grading papers. :)
The idea of placing the whole thing in a pot is a sweet idea. I may try that even with my open bottom hoops.
I would not make the follower any smaller than needed. I made them fit as close as possible because the curd will push up around the top every time. And besides the whey is going to get out if there is any kind of crack at all.
Civil engineering? Me too! I was 2 quarters from graduating and switched to a straight math and physics degree. I finished all the hard stuff but went to a company with a zillion floors and all those cubicles for some hands on experience during the last summer and said 'no way". I still love the physics though. I use it almost everyday.
ooOOoh, I thought it was distance from weights to plunger/distance from plunger to fulcrum. WELL. That's even BETTER. 7x is darn good. I can get 100 lbs. on there and do 730 on the cheese, which gives 11 psi! @_@ Excellent. I can do those tight, crumbly cheddars. If I want. I don't mind soft cheese one bit.
My college career was forced on me by my parents. They shoved me into Civ. Eng., which wasn't what I had in mind, but I was only 17 in my first year and really had very little in my mind. So I dropped out after first year and went into comic and illustration art, became an animation director, and blah blah. Drew for a living for 10+ years. So it was a drastic change from maths to arts, and thus no need for physics for decades. I'm not afraid of math, I'm just disgusted by it, since I'm divorced from it over the time divide. :P
Chee that is an awsome design! I really love it.Well done!
Thanks. I know it's nothing I can display in my front room, but I just wanted it to get the job done, be economical, and easy to store out of the way. And it does all that (I hope: I haven't used it yet).
EDIT: If anyone thinks of buying those Bain Maries, keep in mind that while ss and sturdy thickness for most cheese work, they do taper very slightly. My neighbor just made me an 8.75" follower which fits into the 9" top hole and gets stuck tight about 2/3 of the way to the bottom. It reduces about 3/8" over the 11" drop.
Hopefully a cheese cloth covered curd mass won't seep around the follower very much.
Most hoops taper somewhat. Makes it really important to match the right volume of curds to the mold.
Ture, I forgot my old cheese mold does taper in the bottom 1/4 or 1/3rd as well.
Can't wait to take this baby on a spin!! woo! I'd like to get 50 gallons of milk from Sam's right now and do it, but I gotta do other things first.