YEAH. My Baby Swiss has been aging at room temp (68F) for 9 days and started swelling like crazy over the last two days. Not just the sides, but the tops as well. A really good sign. Smells fantastic.
I intentionally didn't brine this one as long as I have in the past, so the rind is a little more elastic. My thought is that a really hard rind won't allow expansion as the CO2 builds up inside the cheese. If the CO2 can't expand that leads to tiny unseen cracks that allow the CO2 to escape, and not make eyes.
That's a good idea Sailor. When it is brined it just cracks the cheese due to being dried out.
Looking good!
Amazing!! :o
That's what I'm anticipating with my Alpine.
Your swiss is beautiful. Envy, envy.... ;D
Have you been this successful before with the swelling? How big (and heavy) is this wheel and how long did you brine it?
-Boofer-
I usually make traditional Emmental, but this is the best (and earliest) swelling that I have had. All other factors were pretty equal, so I really do attribute that to the reduced brining.
This is from a 3-1/2 gallon batch. 7-1/2" wheel weighs 3 pounds 12 ounces after aging for 9 days.
Recipe says "Brine for 3-4 hours per pound of cheese. Turn the cheese every day and salt the top surfaces." This would have been 12-15 hours in brine, but I brined for 6 hours total and did NOT salt the surfaces.
From the recipe on Peter Dixon's website.
http://www.dairyfoodsconsulting.com/recipes_baby_swiss.shtml (http://www.dairyfoodsconsulting.com/recipes_baby_swiss.shtml)
I have been looking at that one for about a year now. It's the 2nd one in my database. Let us know how it came out.
My Alpine was a 3 gallon pasteurized 2% milk that delivered a 2.25 pound wheel after brining for 7 hours. I just started brine-wiping and salting the surfaces, but will now stop the salting. Hopefully I can still get some swelling. This is Day One.
As inspiration for my Alpine I bought and savored Emmental, Baby Swiss, and French Swiss "Madrigal".
They are all very slight on the salinity. That's my target.
Sailor - One more question: What was your press weight?
-Boofer-
12, 25, 30 then 40 pounds overnight in my Dutch press.
We have had a lot of rain this week, so the humidity is very high. If it drops too much I will wipe the rind in Sesame oil to keep the rind as elastic as possible.
Do you have a recipe for Madrigal?
No recipe for French Swiss Madrigal, but I've included a pic of the label.
-Boofer-
Sailor, just wanted to say that that cheese looks really good. I didn't think that you could get swelling/eye's like that in a small cheese. Don't forget to keep us updated in this one.
Looking very good Salior. I could be misatken but I think someone posted a link to a French website the other day that might have had a french swiss. Danged if I can find it again though.
Sailor...
Any update on this cheese?
Did it continue to swell?
This looks a lot like one of my previous attempts that just overnight...ummmm....deflated on me. I still have no idea why it happened but it left me with my typical numerous, small eyes.
Hopefully this one will turn out for you so you can give the rest of us some insight into what makes a good swiss. This has become a passion for me.
Good luck and I'll continue to watch this thread closely.
Dave
Remember, this is a BABY Swiss and traditionally doesn't have the big eyes anyway.
The cheese aged for 3 more weeks in my cave, rubbing with olive oil once a week. The cheese swelled considerably more during those 3 weeks. Very round. Looks like a space ship. I vacuum bagged it a couple of days ago so it doesn't dry out any more. Rind is firm, but the cheese has a LOT of spring to it. Kind of like pushing in on a beach ball. I think this is going to be a good one.
I did a Jarlsberg (Swiss type) a couple of weeks ago that is aging at 67F on my countertop. Fantastic side swelling but not as much vertical as the Baby. It will go into my cave later this week. My pattern for Swiss types is 2-3 days in the cave right out of the brine. This gives the rind a chance to start to form before the Propionic bacteria start producing CO2. Then 3 weeks at 67F room temp, 3 weeks natural rind in the cave, and then vacuum bag. Then wait ???
I'm really looking forward to seeing this once you cut into it.
Hopefully you've been able to accomplish something that the rest of us have struggled with.
Dave
Ohhh...that one looks NICE, Sailor. Do let us know how it turns out.
I've been stuggling to get a "puffy" Swiss. It gets so hot here in the daytime that I worry about leaving it out 24/7. So, I put it out in the morning and then put it away once it gets over 75 degrees. So far, it sort of works. The eyes are there, but not huge. I'm just making smaller, wheels right now...no biggies yet.
OK, cut the "Baby" today and I was thrilled. The eyes, the flavor and the texture are absolutely perfect. Other than my Stiltons, this is my best cheese yet. Now, can I duplicate it? ::)
Sailor that looks absolutely fantastic!! When they turn out great like that, don't you wish you have had a dozen of them at the same time.
Sailor, I agree 100% with Tea's statement. GREAT JOB!!
I can't begin to tell you how happy I am to see this (although just a tad bit jealous) since it is by far the best example of this style of cheese, that I've seen on this board.
Now here's something very important....
Are you listening?
You REALLY need to post this recipe as well as every move you made during this make.
You have produced the cheese I've been struggling to produce for the last 3 seasons and I haven't even gotten close to the success you've found.
I'll beg if I have to, but I really could use your help here.
Again, great job and congratulations. It has to feel really great.
Dave
Sailor, I envy you. That is a fantastic baby swiss.
When we have holes in our artisan bread like that we call it "they are big enough for the breadmaker to sleep in" and yours are big enough to sleep in. Congrats.
Yes we want the recipe.
Amazing. I bow down to you, Sailor. Sir CheeseMeister! :D
Excellent job. Now, for a description of the taste and texture...Sailor?
-Boofer-
Beautiful cheese sailor!
Sailor.....
I'm a patient man.....
I mean I've given you all of 12 hours to post this recipe so I think my patience speaks for itself......
I can appreciate the need to play a little "hard to get", every once in awhile, but this is CERTAINLY NOT THE TIME TO DO IT!!!
Okay, just busting your chops a little, but I am dying to hear what you did to turn out this fantastic cheese. I've looked at the pictures so many times today I felt like a teenager that had discovered his dad's stash of Playboy magazines.
Really, I'm looking forward to your next post and congrats again.
Dave
Likesspace you crack me up. :)
PLayboy and cheese huh? :o
In case you missed it Dave ... He used Peter Dixson recipe. Here is the recipe and his notes:
Followed Dixon's recipe to the letter with a couple of personal preferences. OK, so more than just a couple of variations. It is very important to understand that Baby Swiss uses a Meso culture while most other Swiss varieties use a Thermo.
1 - I used a straight Aromatic B culture. This adds Leuc. m. cremoris (LM57) to the mix. This bacterium gives a diacetyl (buttery) flavor AND it also produces CO2 above and beyond what the Propionic produces. NOTE - It's not possible to use this culture with a Thermo type Swiss like Emmental, which gets heated to 120F.
2- Peter calls for using just 1/10th the Propionic bacteria used in regular Swiss. Nonsense. I used 1/8th tsp., the same as I use in a regular Swiss.
3- I rippened at 90F. Peter called for 84F. That just seemed a little low to me for a Meso culture and I wanted a little more early acid production.
4- My pH targets were - 6.6 for raw milk to start, 6.45 at time of adding rennet, 6.35 at curd cutting, and 6.30 just prior to pressing.
5- I used a floc multiplier of 3.5 for a total set time of 45 minutes.
6- I made sure not to overcook the curds.
7- Peter calls for pressing for a total of just 5 hours. I pressed for 12 hours, but at just 1.25 psi (50 pounds on a 7-1/2" wheel), to keep the texture pliable.
8- Peter calls for holding the wheel overnight at 50F after pressing and then brining 12-16 hours for a 4 pound wheel. I brined immediately after pressing for just 6 hours. My rationale was to keep the rind pliable, and I didn't want a high salt content to inhibit the Propionic bacteria. (The finished cheese was NOT lacking for salt).
8- AFTER brining, I air dried at 55F for a week and then moved it to a warm room temp of 68-70F. Visible swelling started within just 2 days. After 10 days, it started sweating. I was concerned about losing fat, but it apparently was a good thing. I think a higher temp above 65F is VERY important.
9- After 3 weeks at room temp, I put it in the cave. After 2 weeks, I vacuum bagged and let it age. It continued to swell some even in the cave.
I cut it just shy of my 90 day mark. Put 1/4 back in the cave to age some more. Taste was fantastic. Buttery, as expected. Nice moisture content and classic Swiss flavor. The Baby Swiss is a washed curd cheese, but I actually like it better than my Emmentals. Will definitely be making lots more of these. 8)
LOL@Wayne!
Debi, thanks for posting the pdf file.
Sailor, thanks for posting the changes you made to the recipe.
I think I might have to give this a try this weekend but if not, within the next couple of weeks. I still can't get over how nice that cheese turned out.
Thanks again,
Dave
Sailor....
I do have one other question....
How much milk did you use in the recipe?
I checked on Peter Dixon's site and he does not give a quantity.
I'm trying to figure out how much culture to use for the recipe.
If you can make a suggestion I would appreciate it.
I will be using 4 gallons of whole milk.
Thanks in advance.
Dave
Dave, Peter does specify a quantity in the baby swiss recipe: 50 lbs, which is about 5.8 gallons.
Beautiful cheese, Mr. Con Queso!
What's the appropriate saying among cheesemakers? Congratulations? :) Anyway, very nice. And thanks for the details on the making, too.
(And just in time for Saturnalia feasting !)
This was a 4 gallon batch. I used 1/4 tsp of Aromatic B and 1/8 tsp of Propionic shemanii. Cultures were from Dairy Connection.
Sailor,
Thanks for the information.
I do not have the Aromatic B culture, but I do have MM100 which I will try.
I've made a note of the recipe I wrote out that if I do not get the proper eye formation I will get some Aromatic B and give it a shot.
Not to try your patience, but I do have one more question.....
Did the 4 gallon batch completely fill your 7.5" mold or do you feel that a 5 gallon batch would be better?
My cheese pot will barely hold a 5 gallon batch but with a regular swiss I've always used this amount due to how small the curd size ends up being.
Thanks again for all of the information you've provided and for showing all of us that a proper swiss is possible in the home setting.
You have no idea how much I appreciate this.
Dave
So a meso culture like flora danica which has Lactis biovar diectylactis works with the swiss as long as we keep the temperatures in the meso working conditions.
If B. Diecetylactis is creating more CO2 than the Propionibacterium Shermanii and creating the wholes we want, why we bother with P. Shermanii at all? Does P. Shermanii add anything to the taste and aroma? Does P. Shermanii with B. Diecetylactis creates bigger wholes? Thinking that the both bacteria is creating CO2. The reason I am asking is, there are some swiss cheeses down in the supermarket with huge wholes in them, I wonder how we can get those?
Likespace - I feel the Aromatic B is very important to the process. MM100 won't give you the same results. In fact Peter Dixon's recipe does suggest using Aromatic B. That's why I tried it.
Gurkan - Only the Baby Swiss uses a meso culture. All other classic Swiss types that I know of use Thermo cultures. An MM100 culture, contains 3 bacteria including L.B. Diecetylactis (which does produce a little CO2). However, Aromatic B also contains a 4th bacteria - Leuc. m. cremoris, which produces more CO2. However, none of these Meso bacteria produce more CO2 than Propionic shermanii. They just add to the mix. The Propionic is also very important to the Swiss flavor, so you can't eliminate it. Flora Danica is the same as Aromatic B, but the proportions are different.
Yes, classic Swiss has really big eyes. Baby Swiss generally has smaller holes.
I would like to try using Leuc. m. cremoris on an Emmental, but heating to 120F is not good for a Meso bacterium. So, I'm thinking about adding a little Leuc. m. cremoris mother culture AFTER the cooked emmental has cooled back down below 100F. I know that the bacteria won't be directly integrated into the curds in the usual way, but I feel that the bacteria will migrate and do their thing anyway. Top of my list to try in 2010.
Thanks for the clarifications Sailor. I will try this baby swiss, it is also on my list after I built camembert humidity chambers as per your instructions. I already feel like I need a bigger fridge and room. :)
Sailor...
I really do appreciate you taking the time to provide all of this information.
I will take your advice and purchase some of the Aromatic B culture for future use.
This weekend I guess I'll continue to concentrate on Gouda and Cheddar until my new culture arrives.
Once it does get here, look out....Baby Swiss is my next cheese to begin working on.
Thanks again.
Dave
Sailor,
Been watching this thread with interest. Very impressive cheese. I do not have m100 but I do have flora danice. My thoughts are that they could be substituted. What are your thoughts? I would like to make a few of these before things get hot here, probably starting this weekend with a little luck. Thanks again Sailor for your efforts on helping us, this is a great success.
Quote from: Sailor Con Queso on December 15, 2009, 06:15:18 AM
Peter calls for holding the wheel overnight at 50F after pressing and then brining 12-16 hours for a 4 pound wheel. I brined immediately after pressing for just 6 hours. My rationale was to keep the rind pliable, and I didn't want a high salt content to inhibit the Propionic bacteria. (The finished cheese was NOT lacking for salt).
AFTER brining, I air dried at 55F for a week and then moved it to a warm room temp of 68-70F. Visible swelling started within just 2 days. After 10 days, it started sweating. I was concerned about losing fat, but it apparently was a good thing. I think a higher temp above 65F is VERY important.
I wanted to call these two details out because I want to emphasize their importance. While pressing under whey, hitting pH targets, wheel surface/volume ratio, etc are also important, it is the affinage that makes this cheese work because this is when the Propionic do their work. The optimal temp for propionic (highest volume co2 and propionic acid produced is about 30 C, which is 86 F. However, this is too hot for lactic bacteria and produces defects. So a tradeoff must be maintained between high propionic activity and the rest of the cheese. This to me is somewhere around 70-75 degrees. If it's too cool, the gas production will be slow, and the end result will be smaller holes and less propionic flavor.
The second important item is the salt content. Propionic bacteria are very sensitive to salt. Whereas a cheddar needs 2.2%+ (depends on fat content), a swiss does best at around 1%.
The third item is rind plasticity. This cheese swells. The rind must hold. Francois has mentioned he paints his swiss cheeses with PVA, which is one way to help with rind plasticity by introducing a protector. If you don't want to use PVA, one option is to use a less concentrated brine not at full saturation. This will also help with the salt uptake and dispersion throughout the cheese.
The fourth item is drying the rind and building it up before aging in warmer temps. Again, this is part of rind development so that the cheese does not burst. It doesn't have to be a week at a lower humidity and temp, but the rind needs to dry a little. Waiting before moving to warmer temps also gives the cheese body a chance to come together more and fuse. So what's left are small mechanical inclusions and fissures that serve as the seed points for the co2 to come together and make holes. Some emmethaler cheesemakers wait as long as 2-3 weeks before moving the cheeses to warmer temps.
This is just the science talking for anyone interested in why this cheese turned out so well. Sailor has posted some great practical guidelines for making this cheese. Kudos and thanks :)
Linuxboy,
When I read PVA I think poly vinyl acetate or white Elmer's glue. Are talking about the same thing?
Yep, mixed in with a little Natamycin or sorbate for mold control, it's used to paint cheese or as a substrate before putting on wax. I'm not a huge fan because once glued, it stays on, and I like to eat cheese rinds. :)
So lynixboy, are you telling us you were not a paste eater in elementary school? I for one was an avid paste eater. 1972 was a great year for paste, probably only surpassed by 1964, but there isn't much of that left now is there. I remember meeting the paste dealer behind the slide during recess. for my lunch money and a promise for more tomorrow I could have two days worth of adhesive goodness, complete with a boar hair brush.
Anyhow, I digress. Being such a connoisseur of fine paste I may find this newcomer to the market, this PVA fake stuff, a bit disappointing. I bet there isn't a single animal byproduct in it, let alone any hooves and hides. I think I will also skip the PVA altogether.
Sorry Sailor, I present to you your topic back, a little worse for wear but for the most part still usable.
1975 was also a great year for paste (i was 6 then). Can't you still smell the stuff? ;D
Ben - Flora Danica contains the same bacteria, but in different proportions. If that's what you've got, go 4 it.
I would be hard pressed to find a place for temps above 70 degrees this time of year.
You don't have to heat the whole room. Try a heating pad or a seed starting pad under a ripening box. If the temperature is too low, Swiss types will produce gas slowly and make little farts instead of big farts. >:D
Beautiful cheese Sailor! I am very impressed with the eye formation. Thank for all the tips.
Heating pad in the oven might work. I have a case of those hand warmer thingies. I use a ton of them at work every winter. Good idea!
I sometimes use a heating pad inside of a styrofoam cooler for yogurt or cream cheeses. Simple, but very effective.
I've been keeping my brine bucket over my cheeses to keep the drafts off and setting it on the fridge. That's about the warmest place in the house. Woke up to frozen water yesterday. That hasn't happened in a long time!
Hey Sailor!
I noticed in your recipe you use raw milk, I unfortunately don't have that option right now (Whole Foods has stopped carrying it due to recent issues...) How much rennet would you use for 4 gallons pasteurized milk? (Either vegetable tabs or calf's rennet, I have both)
THANKS! You've inspired me to try your Baby Swiss!
~Cheers
I don't use veg tabs. The amount varies on a number of factors - quality of milk, rennet brand, age of rennet, etc. You should search the forum and study up on flocculation.
I've searched the forum and read up...but I don't see how the flocculation info helps me determine the AMOUNT of rennet to use...I have not had a problem with renneting time and getting a clean break on my cheeses, I am just trying to figure out how much rennet to use in this particular recipe using fresh, pasteurized whole milk.... :-\
Nevermind....I went back to Peter Dixon's recipe and just did the math using 4 gallons instead of 5.8...hopefully it will be ok given that I'm using pasteurized milk instead of raw milk...It's all trial and error anyway, right?!
Quote from: scubagirlwonder on April 13, 2010, 09:14:27 PM
I've searched the forum and read up...but I don't see how the flocculation info helps me determine the AMOUNT of rennet to use...I have not had a problem with renneting time and getting a clean break on my cheeses, I am just trying to figure out how much rennet to use in this particular recipe using fresh, pasteurized whole milk.... :-\
It helps by letting you know how the amount of rennet affects your floc time, and if you have a target for time to floc. If your floc takes 30 mins and your milk is good, you need to use more rennet. Similarly, if your floc is 5 mins and your milk is good, you need to use less rennet.
Hi Scuba Girl,
Rennet dosage is defined by the manufacturer. They usually say something like 10ml for 1000L milk or 100ml for 1000L milk etc on the package.
For example, I have a double strength CHR Hansen calf rennet and it says 10ml for 1000L milk. For my 8L of milk I only use 0.8ml.
Flocculation does not give you the formula for amount of rennet but gives you the optimum time for cutting the curd. Of course this time changes with the amount of rennet if you make like 0.1ml measurement mistakes. Also using more rennet than advised may result in a bitter taste in your end product. Using less rennet is OK I think as long as flocculation technique applied or enough time given for the curd formation (usually longer).
ScubaGirl,
Time is a VERY inaccurate way to do things when making cheese. Flocculation is very important because it is an easy way to compensate for variables like raw vs. pasteurized, or Jersey vs. Holstein, or Spring milk vs. late lactation, or 86F vs 88F temperature, or rennet brand X vs. brand Y.
So, here's the deal. I shoot for a "flocculation point" of 12 minutes with all of my cheeses. I use calf rennet from supplier X and add say 1/2 teaspoon for a 5 gallon batch. Well, if it takes 16 minutes to flocculate, the next time I will use a little more. If it takes just 7 minutes to flocculate I know that I need to use a little less next time.
Cheese recipes don't take these variables into consideration when giving amounts or times. Kind of like the difference between making bread in Miami or Denver. Things just don't work the same at 6000 feet as they do at sea level and you have to make adjustments. If you are using the same milk source, you get a real feel for just how much rennet to add.
Sailor,
I appreciate all the advice and I understand what you're explaining about the importance of flocculation (and am learning to use it), but when I am making a recipe for the first time I need a starting point and that is what I was trying to get regarding the amount of rennet to use in the baby Swiss recipe. I did some research on my own and added the recommended amount of rennet, (and went ahead and recorded floc for next time.)
~Cheers
That's what you do. Record for the next time. ;)
After reading the excellent advice on flocculation (https://cheeseforum.org/Making/Curd%20-%20When%20To%20Cut.htm), I'm a convert. Not that I've tried it yet, but after getting a completely different (worse) result by using better (raw) milk, I'm going to.
(link fixed, thanks Debi)
Just a quick question regarding the initial aging of Baby Swiss (during eye formation): should I still be turning the cheese as I would other cheeses, or do I just leave it be? I don't want to mess anything up or risk cracking it!!
I brined it the shorter amount of time, per Sailor's recommendations (I agree with the shorter time allowing for a more pliable rind!) and allowed it to air dry for several days at 55F, now am moving it into the warmer environment for eye development....also, anything special I need to do for humidity? or is it just supposed to be at a lower humidity (eg. room air)??
~Cheers!
Quote from: Tom Turophile / CheeseStud on April 14, 2010, 02:25:07 PM
After reading the excellent advice on flocculation (http://"https://cheeseforum.org/Making/Curd%20-%20When%20To%20Cut.htm"), I'm a convert. Not that I've tried it yet, but after getting a completely different (worse) result by using better (raw) milk, I'm going to.
Try this link I think this is were Tom meant to send you - here (https://cheeseforum.org/Making/Curd%20-%20When%20To%20Cut.htm)
Room temp or more for 3 weeks. Humidity doesn't need to be 90% but too low and the rind will crack (and all the CO2 will leak out). I made another last week because we are having rain and the natural humidity in the house is up. I have been rubbing mine with olive oil lately to keep the rind from drying out too much.
We have been having record high temperatures. Be aware that air conditioning will suck the life out of cheese rinds.
Yes, turn the cheese. I like holding my "baby" so I turn it in the morning and the evening.
Hey Sailor,
I seem to remember you talking about your Baby Swiss "sweating" (but can't seem to find it now) could you tell me a little more about that? I am pretty sure my baby is doing that now, and just want to hear what I should expect. Since this is my first Swiss style cheese I don't know what milestones to expect during eye formation, aging, etc. This whole process is sooooo different from the other cheeses I have made!!!
So:
1. When should I expect the baby to "sweat" and for how long...
2. When should I expect to start seeing some swelling? (and how long should that last??)
3. When should I start oiling the rind to prevent cracking? (so far my humidity seems to be perfect! not drying too fast!)
4. When should I shrink wrap or wax ( I saw you did this after 3 weeks of eye formation, I assume that this may be variable depending on temp, humidity etc during eye formation, so what cues should I look for to let me know it's time?)
Thanks for letting me pick your brain for info!!
~Cheers
During the eye formation phase, Swiss type cheeses can sweat at room temperature or greater. The warmer the temperature, the more sweat.
Swelling should start within 24 hours after moving to room temperature as the Propionic bacteria start to make gas. However, VISIBLE swelling takes a few days to start depending on the amount and activity of the Propionic that you used, room temp, etc.
If I'm going for a natural rind, I have started oiling as soon as I move it to room temp. You could also keep it in a ripening container to keep the humidity up and keep the rind pliable. It's very important not to let the rind get too dry during the initial cool phase.
Unless you are having problems, don't wax until the swelling has stabilized or the wax will just crack. You can vac bag much earlier depending on your style. Sometimes I vac bag after just one day in the cool temp phase to create a mostly rindless cheese, but there are pros and cons to doing that. It keeps the rind moist and gives the cheese a lot of physical support (like an Ace bandage) during eye formation. But that also cuts off oxygen to the starter bacteria early and might have a negative effect on aging. If I feel the rind has dried out too much during the cool phase, I vac bag the day I move it to room temp. If I'm trying to go natural rind, I still vac bag after 3 or 4 weeks. Just my personal preference.
THanks so much for the info Sailor! My Baby is sweating like crazy an I just wanted to be sure that that was what I should expect! I can't wait to see the swelling start! ;D
Try to keep the temperature as steady as you can. You had a few really hot days and my baby cracked. :-\
If the sweating gets excessive, your room may be too warm.
Traditional Baby Swiss is made with skim milk so it will sweat less. I make mine with milk right outta the cow, so it tends to sweat more. I figure with whatever butterfat it loses during sweating, I will still end up with more than the skimmed version.
FYI, you will get bigger holes with less butterfat.
Again... don't let the rind dry out or it will crack. Think of the rind as the surface of a balloon. It needs to expand.
OK...I thought everything was going well with my Baby...but now I'm starting to doubt myself (and my cheese)! :-\
My rind is sticky.....I wasn't expecting sticky....is this OK?? :o It's still sweating, temps remaining mostly constant at around 65F, I had a couple dark spots start showing up so I gently bathed my baby with vinegar/salt combo, and decided to oil the rind to inhibit mold growth and maintain pliability, and so far rind doesn't seem to be drying out at all (is in a ripening box) so should I have waited on oiling the rind? Is that why it feels sticky? ???
What should I do?? This is my first endeavor with Swiss so I am completely at it's mercy!! All advice welcome!
~Cheers!
You're doing great. At 65F the Propionic bacteria will produce gas slow and steady and the eyes will be smaller. A few degrees warmer would be ideal.
The sticky is just the combination of sweating milk fats and the oil. Just control the dark spots and the mold and everything will turn out fine. Making cheese isn't always "pretty". 8)
THANKS SO MUCH SAILOR! I needed that encouragement! I think the temp has actually been a bit closer to 67/68F, but we just had an unexpected cold snap overnight so it dropped to 60 last night and during the day when I was gone (so I averaged things out). Generally it's been pretty steady though and all the other "milestones" you told me to watch for are happening, so I'm excited! I was just worried about the stickyness...glad to hear everything is as it should be!
Thanks again!
Quote from: Sailor Con Queso on December 15, 2009, 06:15:18 AM
Followed Dixon's recipe to the letter with a couple of personal preferences. OK, so more than just a couple of variations. It is very important to understand that Baby Swiss uses a Meso culture while most other Swiss varieties use a Thermo.
1 - I used a straight Aromatic B culture. This adds Leuc. m. cremoris (LM57) to the mix. This bacterium gives a diacetyl (buttery) flavor AND it also produces CO2 above and beyond what the Propionic produces. NOTE - It's not possible to use this culture with a Thermo type Swiss like Emmental, which gets heated to 120F.
2- Peter calls for using just 1/10th the Propionic bacteria used in regular Swiss. Nonsense. I used 1/8th tsp., the same as I use in a regular Swiss.
awesome looking cheese :) OMG now I have such a craving fro swiss cheese *LOL* got to make some, when
did you add the Aroma B as an extra or as a replacement? how much aroma B did you add?
I like this recipe since I don't have to wait 6 months *LOL*
Aroma B is not an extra, it is the main starter culture, so it is added at the beginning. Just follow the recipe on Peter Dixon's website.
Quote from: Sailor Con Queso on April 25, 2010, 10:54:31 PM
Aroma B is not an extra, it is the main starter culture, so it is added at the beginning. Just follow the recipe on Peter Dixon's website.
*LOL* thanks, seems like I missread the instructions *LOL*
I have both mm100 and AromaB what would you reccoment for this receipe?
thanks
I use a straight Aromatic B culture which contains Leuc. m. cremoris. This bacterium gives a diacetyl (buttery) flavor AND it also produces CO2 above and beyond what the Propionic produces. NOTE - It's not possible to use this culture with a Thermo type Swiss like Emmental, which gets heated to 120F.
2- Peter calls for using just 1/10th the Propionic bacteria used in regular Swiss. Nonsense. I used 1/8th tsp., the same as I use in a regular Swiss.
Thanks Sailor :) will try it real soon.
AAAWWW BUMMER.....my baby cracked last night....
Everything was going along so well, then I awoke to cracks...so sad, especially since the rind is still very soft and malleable, I was really surprised to see cracks....we're at day 12 of aging/eye development. I was so hoping for nice swelling like Sailor's Baby Swiss! Ah well, next time.
The Propionic bacteria produce gas for several days so vacuum bag ASAP if you can. That will pull the cracks together and keep the gas from escaping.
Even with a pliable rind, if the bacteria produce gas too quickly, it's gotta go someplace. That is especially true on small wheels. The larger the cheese, the more room it has to expand. Try a little less Propionic next time. Peter Dixon recommends 1/10th the amount used for an Emmental - but that will produce really tiny eyes. I use about 1/16 teaspoon in a 5 gallon batch. There is also a fine line between pliable and sturdy. Pliable can rip easier, while a bit harder rind is stronger.
Sometimes I vacuum bag right out of the initial cool phase before room temperature eye development. I have a Baby Swiss and a Jarlsberg "swelling" in vac bags right now. The Baby is 2 weeks in and is bigger than the picture of my first Baby. The Jarlsberg is only one week into eye development but is obviously growing by the hour. The advantages of bagging before eye development - almost rindless cheese (very edible rind) and very pliable rind. I have not had one crack while vac bagged.
Bummer...I don't have a vacuum sealer...I'm thinking maybe it's time to get one...recommendations?
I got a good 11-inch one on Ebay for ~$70. It is not the new superduper automatic sealer type. From what I read, that sensing technology is flaky. I went to something a little less sophisticated and cheaper. It's excellent and does what I need. 11-in x 50-foot rolls of bags are also fairly inexpensive on Ebay too.
My sealer is a Foodsaver v2830.
Good luck.
-Boofer-
is there a trick to vac pack bigger wheels if the bags are to small? did anyone tried to seal 2 or more bags together to make a bigger bag?
when I make emmental or any cheese, my wheels are 3 kg for the smal once and about 10kg for the bigger one.
I only got a small foodsaver and the biggest bags are about 10-11 " any tips on how to??
Debi detailed how she did it. Search on the forum for it.
There was also a recent discussion about larger sealers.
-Boofer-
Since I started the cheesemaking hobby earlier this year my goal has been to make a good blue and a good baby swiss - my two favorite styles.
I followed the recipe, information, and advice in this thread and I'm about a week in to my first wheel of baby swiss. Things seem to be going along nicely. Mine started to sweat a bit even after a few days at 57 degrees. I just raised to 67 ealier today, but I have some concerns after reading the last few posts about having it swell up and crack, especially since mine is a relatively small wheel (4 gallons of milk, about 3.5 lbs of cheese). I don't have a vacuum sealer. Should I perhaps consider not going as warm as 67 and instead keep it a bit cooler to keep the C02 down?
BTW, I also came across a couple of excellent videos on Youtube from a dairy in Ohio making baby swiss. You can watch and see they follow the steps and recipe detailed in this post almost exactly (including the vacuum sealing)-
Making Baby Swiss Cheese at Young's Dairy- Part 1 of 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVkdc832Ex0#ws)
Making Baby Swiss Cheese at Young's Dairy- Part 2 of 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rQ-2UBBKjk#ws)
The Propionic bacteria actually prefer a higher temperature - 70F+. If you hold the cheese at a lower temperature during eye formation, you will get slower gas production. While that may keep the rind from cracking, you will also get much smaller eyes. So a lower temperature defeats the purpose.
One important point that we haven't talked about in this thread. Swiss cheeses, especially Baby Swiss actually do better with partially skimmed milk. A full fat (3.5-5%) make is more prone to cracking and will produce smaller eyes. Now, that being said, I rarely use skimmed milk. 8)
Very good points Sailor! I have had problems with full fat Swiss oozing fat at 70F but at 65F the eye development was significantly smaller. I think on my next make I'll run half the milk through the cream separator and see if the rind stays dry and the eyes get bigger.
Quote from: Sailor Con Queso on May 01, 2010, 02:19:07 AM
One important point that we haven't talked about in this thread. Swiss cheeses, especially Baby Swiss actually do better with partially skimmed milk. A full fat (3.5-5%) make is more prone to cracking and will produce smaller eyes. Now, that being said, I rarely use skimmed milk. 8)
Now you tell me!! No wonder my Baby Swiss cracked.....besides that, you initially said to use 1/8tsp. Propionic, then in a later post said you use 1/16tsp......this baby was destined for failure!!! :P Ah well, live and learn! I am determined to make a Baby Swiss as beautiful as yours Sailor; this time I am going to use a partially skimmed milk and less propionic shermanii... :D (and I may vac pack right after the initial cool aging period...)
Didn't mean to mislead you. I experiment with different approaches all the time. My first few babies were made with 1/8 tsp Propionic and I had great results on most. I did have a couple that cracked (still had great flavor), so I backed off to 1/16 tsp. With the smaller dose, the swelling doesn't come on as rapidly and makes smaller holes - which is normal for a Baby Swiss. I like the flavor I am getting, so I have never used partially skimmed milk in a Baby Swiss. BUT, technically that will give better eye formation.
I can tell you that I get the best results when we are having rainy low pressure weather during eye formation. The naturally high humidity helps keep the rind pliable. And I believe that lower atmospheric pressure allows the rind to expand easier without cracking. During a high pressure weather system, the atmospheric pressure and the internal pressure on the cheese combine at the surface of the cheese and the rind is prone to cracks. Just a theory. The first 72 hours of visible swelling is definitely the most critical.
BTW - Peter Dixon suggests using 1/10th the Propionic in a Baby Swiss that you would use in an Emmental. That would be just 1/80th teaspoon. I strongly disagree.
Quote from: Sailor Con Queso on May 04, 2010, 03:48:46 AM
I can tell you that I get the best results when we are having rainy low pressure weather during eye formation. The naturally high humidity helps keep the rind pliable. And I believe that lower atmospheric pressure allows the rind to expand easier without cracking. During a high pressure weather system, the atmospheric pressure and the internal pressure on the cheese combine at the surface of the cheese and the rind is prone to cracks. Just a theory. The first 72 hours of visible swelling is definitely the most critical.
BTW - Peter Dixon suggests using 1/10th the Propionic in a Baby Swiss that you would use in an Emmental. That would be just 1/80th teaspoon. I strongly disagree.
Hmmmm...trying to figure out how to time that critical period to coincide with a low pressure system....that's a challenge...Wait! What am I saying?? It's spring and I live in the Seattle area...it's always raining this time of year! :D
Sailor- I really appreciate all the tips and hints!!-I am determined to make a baby swiss as beautiful as yours! I am going to try again this week, adjusting the recipe with partially skim milk and less propionic shermanii....I'll let you know how things work!
That's an excellent video that Marksto submitted a few posts back. You should note that they vaccum bag right out of the press and avoid all of the changing environmental variables that we have to deal with.
Keep in mind that you will get a lower yield with partially skimmed milk and your curd set may not be as strong.
Here's a tip for the day - skimmed or lower-fat milk spoils faster than whole milk. Dairy processors know that so they will often pasteurize a little longer or a little hotter when doing skimmed milk. That makes store bought lower fat milk less compatible for home cheesemaking.
I do watch the weather to help me decide what to make for the week. Last week I knew rain was coming, so I made Stiltons (including a ginger/candied lemon rind) on Wednesday and Thursday. It rained every day and we ended up with 7" for just Saturday and Sunday. Total for the week was around 9". (Can you say FLASH FLOODING?) Needless to say, the humidity is really high and will be for several days. My Stiltons started turning blue yesterday, about 4-5 days earlier than I would normally see during drier weather. I'll bet that Seattle is a great place to make blues and other moldy cheeses. ;)
The success of all of our cheeses, including the Baby Swiss really depend on the right environmental conditions - either natural or cave controlled.
I separated milk this morning to mix 3:1 with whole milk for Swiss. I am making a 4gallon batch do you still think 1/8 tsp in 4 gallons is plenty or do I need less with part skim?
Sailor:
I did notice that they vacuum pack right out of the brine (or after a day or so of drying?).... Then I noticed in the aging room that some of the rounds out of the Kadova moulds were, seemingly, unwrapped and aging "au naturale".
It seems like a short dry time and a vacuum-packed aging for eye formation would be much less error-prone, no?
-Michael
Hey Sailor!
Thank you again for all your great advise! What do you think about 2 gallons 2% and 2 gallons whole milk? That may lend a nice creamyness, and give me a better yield than all 4 gallons of lower fat milk...plus having reduced the fat a bit may be less prone to cracking? I am also going to change brands of milk with my next few batches to see how my curds respond (I dont know if you saw my Gouda troubles...bah!) there is a local creamery that sells cream top milk in glass half-gallons that is delicious (but more pricey than I wanted to spend, but it is such better quality milk!!). Wish me luck!! ;)
Cream Top (aka Cream Line) milk is really good because it's not homogenized. A 50/50 blend with 2% is probably a good mix.
Christy - Are you making a true Swiss or a Baby Swiss? Big difference. Swiss uses thermophilic starter while Baby is a mesophilic. In either case, the Propionic is in addition to your regular starter and has an entirely different mission than the lactic bacteria. With a true Swiss I would use 1/8 teaspoon of Propionic. With a Baby, I would use 1/16.
Sominus - no telling what else they have in that aging room besides the Baby Swiss. Vac packing does have its merits, but a tight vaccum might also restrict rind expansion and inhibit eye formation. I prefer Au Naturale. Another approach I want to try is to dry the freshly brined wheel for just one or two days during the cool phase then place the wheel in a large ziplock or vac bag with no vaccum. The bag will stay in this bag for the rest of the cool phase and throughout eye formation. My thought is to keep the rind super moist to prevent cracking. This should also produce a softer, more edible rind.
There are several choices - none are wrong.
I'm making a true Swiss. I went ahead and used 1/8tea. I have made this a few times but this is my first attempt with the goat milk ran through the separator. I don't know what the fat% is but it is sure to be lower that full fat goat milk.
Since goat's milk is naturally homogenized and acts differently than cow's milk, I don't know how much difference the lower fat content will make. (interesting question). But I'm sure it will be a great cheese. Have you had trouble with eye formation on your whole milk?
No, my eye formation is pretty good for the small 4 gallon batches I usually make. This (https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,2996.0.html) is how they usually turn out. However, with whole milk I have to allow for eye development at 60F because at 72F the cheese will ooze fat. My goat milk is around 3.5% butterfat. Because of the lower temp I used more propionic, 1t for four gallons.
My goal with reducing the fat is to be able to use less propionic and to allow for eye development at 72F with no oozing. I am hoping for larger eyes :)
I remember your cheese. Looks great.
Sweating a little fat is normal and I feel that it actually helps the rind stay pliable. The milk I am using runs around 4% butterfat and I just let it sweat at 70F. I figure it won't hurt if I lose a little butterfat in the process. Have you tried just letting one go at 70F to see what happens?
1t of Propionic in 4 gallons is really high, but I understand you are compensating for the lower temp. Your eyes are numerous, but a little small. That can be attributed to the high dosage and the low temp during eye formation. Swiss is traditionally made in 200 pound wheels so the CO2 gas has a long way to travel before reaching the rind. In small wheels such as we produce, the gas has a much shorter path before it gets to the rind and starts increasing pressure. So it is much easier to get big eyes in larger wheels.
I have noticed the difference...
The cheeses that oozed fat at 70F had wonderful flavor but a somewhat dry, flaky texture while the ones that didn't ooze had a nice firm but moist interior, typical of what you would expect.
In the videos during the pressing I was wondering how long they press. It seemed like it wasn't too long at all. I caught the 25 pound weight comment. With that and the mechanical advantage they might have working, it seems like the press weight would be at least 100 pounds.
Also does it seem like the cheese table is maintained at a warm temperature to facilitate the prepress with the steel plates and the subsequent cutting of the curds?
Any other speculation or opinion?
-Boofer-
Time is money, so the commercial guys press hard and fast. Nothing like what we do. Francois might be able to give some pressures and times.
Christy - dry and flaky can be caused by over acidification, usually because of too much starter bacteria.
Yes, perhaps. I am very good with my times, temps and measure but still, it could have gotten away from me.
Sailor, can you please help me. ( or anyone else ) :)
I would like to try the baby swiss tomorrow, following Dixon's recipe , but not sure if using mm100 or aroma B yet.. I have both.
but I really need help with the mesurements, I'm so confused with ponunds and all that.
my batch will be 200 liters of milk, can you please tell me how much mm100 or aroma B I need for this batch, and how much propionic?
thanks
200 liters - cool.
I use 1/2 (.5) teaspoon of Aroma B and 1/16 (.0625) teaspoon Propionic for a 5 gallon batch.
So 200 liters = 52.83 gallons
Aroma B = .5 tsp/5 gallon = .1 tsp/gallon so .1 x 52.83 = 5.25 teaspoons (rounded off)
Propionic = .0625 tsp/5 gallons = .0125 tsp/gallon x 52.83 = .66 teaspoons - round up to .75 = 3/4 teaspoon
These are my measurements scaled up to fit your 200 liters. I would check with your culture supplier and get their recommendations based on the strains that you are using.
Quote from: Sailor Con Queso on May 07, 2010, 04:34:54 AM
200 liters - cool.
I use 1/2 (.5) teaspoon of Aroma B and 1/16 (.0625) teaspoon Propionic for a 5 gallon batch.
So 200 liters = 52.83 gallons
Aroma B = .5 tsp/5 gallon = .1 tsp/gallon so .1 x 52.83 = 5.25 teaspoons (rounded off)
Propionic = .0625 tsp/5 gallons = .0125 tsp/gallon x 52.83 = .66 teaspoons - round up to .75 = 3/4 teaspoon
These are my measurements scaled up to fit your 200 liters. I would check with your culture supplier and get their recommendations based on the strains that you are using.
thanks a bunch ;D
what do you guys think?to keep the cheese at room temperature and keep the humitity right do you think this greenhose would work?
I will store my cheese in the new house, but it's pretty dry there and a little dusty since it's still under construction, is that an idea?
http://www.princessauto.com/farm/lawn-garden/garden-equipment/8211534-72-tall-green-house?redirected=1 (http://www.princessauto.com/farm/lawn-garden/garden-equipment/8211534-72-tall-green-house?redirected=1)
That's a tough one. You need to keep the temp constant, it's the variations that often make for defects. If you can keep it constant and the humidity fairly constant, then it will work.
were you thinking of just putting it outside and letting the sun heat it up?
Quote from: linuxboy on May 11, 2010, 02:47:45 PM
That's a tough one. You need to keep the temp constant, it's the variations that often make for defects. If you can keep it constant and the humidity fairly constant, then it will work.
were you thinking of just putting it outside and letting the sun heat it up?
nope not outside just inside the house in a room, I can leave it open and just close it up when we do some work.
and not close to a window where the sun shines on it..
I actually really like that idea. Might be a great place to age my Stiltons (for a few weeks during the blue phase) or other bloomy rind cheeses. With the plastic closed it would be easy to keep the humidity up without getting things too wet for the blue molds (they HATE wet feet). :o
You could probably put a small dorm refrigerator (with no door) inside to keep the temperature cooler as necessary. Just have to exhaust any warm air being produced.
Another good solution is to get a baker's rack, the stainless steel ones with side shelf holders where you slide trays into, and instead of trays, put in eggcrate or similar. Then take heavy plastic sheeting and drape it in 4 pieces around, or 2 pieces, with only the front opening for access. Put that in a room with an air conditioner, or where temp is low, and if you don't have a lot of cheeses, a humidifier mounted to the bottom side of the baker's rack. It's an elegant solution on casters.
Edit: or, if you have some more money to spend on a dedicated solution, check out strip curtains and strip walls. Like these ones http://www.tmi-pvc.com/strip_doors/accordion.html (http://www.tmi-pvc.com/strip_doors/accordion.html)
wow great ideas :) the strip curtains was something I was looking in to a few years ago before my husband build my cheese house, but it was just to much $$
the baker rack is fantastic, my friend has one and I asked him but he has or will convert his in to a huge deydrator.. so nothing for me *LOL*
I went ahead and ordered that greenhouse, if it does not work I can still use it for plants *LOL*
just hoping my hubby won't freak out *LOL*
wow just my luck :( just got a call from them and they are out of stock. so I called the store in the city and they have some, so tomorrow I gonna drive 1 hr+ and get me one :)
mine are swelling to :)
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_4iTWj1asPz0/S_ySZTV_mAI/AAAAAAAAAXA/rg6RIeVt5XQ/s1600/P5250314.JPG)
hope they make it :)
I tried 2 batches, one batch I put to room temperature 3 days after making the cheese, and the other batch I waited 11 days till I put them to room temperature, now lets wait and see, so far they look good, both batches are starting to swell :)
Beautiful Zameluzza!! What recipe did you use for those? I am trying to figure out what I'd like to make for my next cheese, and I am thinking I may need to make another swiss.....
Let us know how things come out!! They look great!
~Cheers!
Quote from: scubagirlwonder on May 26, 2010, 04:54:27 AM
Beautiful Zameluzza!! What recipe did you use for those? I am trying to figure out what I'd like to make for my next cheese, and I am thinking I may need to make another swiss.....
Let us know how things come out!! They look great!
~Cheers!
thank you :)
I used the receipe Sailor posted on this thred the one from Peter Dixon
http://www.dairyfoodsconsulting.com/recipes_baby_swiss.shtml (http://www.dairyfoodsconsulting.com/recipes_baby_swiss.shtml)
the first batch I used AromaB culture and the 2nd one I used MM100, :)
Zame,
Looks great so far. Don't you just LOVE it when they start to swell? There's really something primordial about those microscopic bacteria passing gas into a blob of milk fat that will become a cheese.
It is REALLY important that you keep the humidity up or the rind will crack and the gas will leak out. You can always put it in a ripening box like a Rubbermaid or plastic container with a little water to boost the humidity. There are several posts and examples on the forum.
If it does crack, vacuum bag immediately and you will still get a good tasting cheese with smaller eyes.
Quote from: Sailor Con Queso on May 26, 2010, 03:00:01 PM
Zame,
Looks great so far. Don't you just LOVE it when they start to swell? There's really something primordial about those microscopic bacteria passing gas into a blob of milk fat that will become a cheese.
It is REALLY important that you keep the humidity up or the rind will crack and the gas will leak out. You can always put it in a ripening box like a Rubbermaid or plastic container with a little water to boost the humidity. There are several posts and examples on the forum.
If it does crack, vacuum bag immediately and you will still get a good tasting cheese with smaller eyes.
thanks sailor :) I will need to do something soon, don't want the baby to crack :)
thanks
Would it be possible to vac pack right after it is pressed and let it "rise" while in the bag? And then after it is at the right flavor leave it open and start to put a rind on it by rubbing with oil or something else?? I'm ventureing into something like this, a baby swiss type idea. Something I thought of at 2AM. :o Any thoughts?
Jen
Most of this has been covered, so be sure and read the entire thread. ;)
Quote from: Sailor Con Queso on May 26, 2010, 03:00:01 PM
Zame,
Looks great so far. Don't you just LOVE it when they start to swell? There's really something primordial about those microscopic bacteria passing gas into a blob of milk fat that will become a cheese.
It is REALLY important that you keep the humidity up or the rind will crack and the gas will leak out. You can always put it in a ripening box like a Rubbermaid or plastic container with a little water to boost the humidity. There are several posts and examples on the forum.
If it does crack, vacuum bag immediately and you will still get a good tasting cheese with smaller eyes.
OMG Sailor, last night I had a nightmare, in my dream my baby Swiss busted and I paniked :( no vaccuum bag was fitting they where to small, so I sealed a few bags together to make it fit, and at the end the bag was not air tight :(.
when I woke up I went to check the cheese in my PJ's *LOL* hahaha how paranoid can I get *LOL* anyways no need for panik just yet the cheese looks good, here is a picture from today *LOL*
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_4iTWj1asPz0/S_80ZW4dfOI/AAAAAAAAAYs/oG68Mh2shF8/s1600/P5270321.jpg)
Quote from: zameluzza on May 28, 2010, 03:29:48 AM
Quote from: Sailor Con Queso on May 26, 2010, 03:00:01 PM
Zame,
Looks great so far. Don't you just LOVE it when they start to swell? There's really something primordial about those microscopic bacteria passing gas into a blob of milk fat that will become a cheese.
It is REALLY important that you keep the humidity up or the rind will crack and the gas will leak out. You can always put it in a ripening box like a Rubbermaid or plastic container with a little water to boost the humidity. There are several posts and examples on the forum.
If it does crack, vacuum bag immediately and you will still get a good tasting cheese with smaller eyes.
OMG Sailor, last night I had a nightmare, in my dream my baby Swiss busted and I paniked :( no vaccuum bag was fitting they where to small, so I sealed a few bags together to make it fit, and at the end the bag was not air tight :(.
when I woke up I went to check the cheese in my PJ's *LOL* hahaha how paranoid can I get *LOL* anyways no need for panik just yet the cheese looks good, here is a picture from today *LOL*
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_4iTWj1asPz0/S_80ZW4dfOI/AAAAAAAAAYs/oG68Mh2shF8/s1600/P5270321.jpg)
That is amazing!
Looks fantastic. Just keep that rind moist and pliable. Think of it like a balloon. The rind has to be able to expand. And be sure to keep turning the cheese so the gas will disperse more evenly.
I'll bet you get more swelling with the Aroma B.
I definitely understand your dreams about exploding "babies". >:D
thanks you 2 :)
Sailor I'm pretty sure that's the Aroma B one, just keeping my fingers and toes crossed they stay safe :)
I use almond oil on the rind , if I see they get a bit to dry.
What does your second cheese look like? Which one was held at cooler temp for just 3 days? I would expect that the 3 day version will be more subject to cracking because it didn't have enough time to start forming a pliable rind.
I use olive oil but the almond oil sounds really nice.
Quote from: Sailor Con Queso on May 28, 2010, 02:10:17 PM
What does your second cheese look like? Which one was held at cooler temp for just 3 days? I would expect that the 3 day version will be more subject to cracking because it didn't have enough time to start forming a pliable rind.
I use olive oil but the almond oil sounds really nice.
sailor the first one I made was the one with only 3 days cool and tha's the one with Aroma B. the one in the picture, so I just keep putting oil on it.
HELP my babyswiss busted :( can I cut in it 4 and vacuum like that, I don't have huge bags...
please help.
Sailor - Early tomorrow I'm starting my baby, following your lead. I just received my Aroma B and new Propionic yesterday. I have a question though. The package says a max of 4C/40F. So I shouldn't consider freezing these to help preserve them?
-Boofer-
Quote from: Boofer on May 30, 2010, 06:40:52 AM
Sailor - Early tomorrow I'm starting my baby, following your lead. I just received my Aroma B and new Propionic yesterday. I have a question though. The package says a max of 4C/40F. So I shouldn't consider freezing these to help preserve them?
-Boofer-
I have all my cultures in the freezer.
Quote from: zameluzza on May 29, 2010, 03:21:57 PM
HELP my babyswiss busted :( can I cut in it 4 and vacuum like that, I don't have huge bags...
please help.
I still need help, I cut the cheese in 4 vaccumd it and put it in the cave!!
Sailor should I put it back in the warm spot? the time is not up yet for it...
I'm so lost with this one...
:(
Quote from: zameluzza on May 30, 2010, 03:43:27 PM
I have all my cultures in the freezer.
I stored the cultures in the freezer that I bought initially from Leeners in December 2009. The recommendation at that time was to store them in the freezer. These new cultures from Dairy Connection very clearly state the max 4C/40F guidelines. They are non-liquid so I would lean towards the freezer being okay, but I wanted to get some assurance from other users of these cultures that the freezer is okay.
If the freezer is okay, why then would the caution on the package be there?
-Boofer-
Zameluzza -
You cheese should show the most significant changes between 4 and 13 days. Once it bursts there may be a few small pockets of CO2 trapped in the corners but for the most part it is over. I'd put it in the cave and just enjoy the flavor.
Boofer -
I just keep my packaged cultures in the fridge in ziplock bags with the air squeezed out in the small cardboard shipping boxes they came in. One box for opens packages and two for unopened packages. My bottles of lipase are stored in the freezer though.
Debi - Thanks. I just checked Dairy Connection's website. They state that the cultures can be kept in the refrigerator or freezer.
For my baby swiss this morning I'm using 1/4tsp Aroma B and 1/8tsp Propionic. I'm following Sailor's direction which includes heating the milk to 90F. I did that, waited 45 minutes, checked the acidity and had 6.85 (started with 6.93). So I waited...and waited...and waited.... An hour and a half later (that's a total of 2hr 15min) and I'm only at 6.68...looking for 6.45.
Isn't 90F too warm for Aroma B or any other meso culture? Have I killed it?
I decided to try and kickstart it. I added 1/8tsp Flora Danica. An hour later and it's at 6.65. I think using my new Extech meter is driving me crazy. :'(
-Boofer-
That seems lke a long time have you check the calibration on the Extech?
Yes, I did. It checked it at 4 & 7. It was good to go.
Don't understand it. I did a Gouda last week and it went well. Maybe I got a less-than-lively packet of culture. I proceeded after 3 1/2 hours at 6.55 anyway. Probably because my rennet had been waiting for so long, it floc'd in 5 minutes and I cut in 18 minutes. I'm flipping it for the last time under whey. Next I'll remove the whey and keep it in the warming pot as Sailor suggested. Using my 7 3/8 mould, I'll press in there with 50 lbs for 12 hours.
At this point I'm not certain which of the cultures was/is viable. I think the Flora Danica helped bring it around. Hopefully that won't be displeasing to my tastebuds, but that's a ways off.
We'll see how it proceeds down the road. Definitely a strange ripening deal.
-Boofer-
P.S. Sorry, I didn't mean to hijack this thread. I just felt it was in a similar vein.
Quote from: DeejayDebi on May 30, 2010, 04:25:02 PM
Zameluzza -
You cheese should show the most significant changes between 4 and 13 days. Once it bursts there may be a few small pockets of CO2 trapped in the corners but for the most part it is over. I'd put it in the cave and just enjoy the flavor.
thanks Debi, this is the way the cheese looked after it busted and I cut it in half and vaccuumed. it's in the cave right now.
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_4iTWj1asPz0/TAGpGnhPO6I/AAAAAAAAAY0/qJ3tGCW4RmI/s1600/P5290322.JPG)
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_4iTWj1asPz0/TAGpK8l9pnI/AAAAAAAAAY8/FAeDoB11QvQ/s1600/P5290323.JPG)
Looks pretty good. I can't see where it cracked open.
Quote from: DeejayDebi on May 31, 2010, 05:36:36 AM
Looks pretty good. I can't see where it cracked open.
on the side it was split open :(
My last one cracked on top. All was well and then we suddenly had this 90 degree day and it over heated the room by the time I got home from work it cracked my poor cheese. I threw it in the cave for further aging.
zameluzza - That looks great! I should be so lucky.
-Boofer-
Regardless of"cracking it open early", I think it looks great!
Mine has finally started swelling --I'm watching it regularly (perhaps TOO much) to be on the look out for cracks........so far so good. Hoping that I can maintain the temp and humidity outside the cave until it is time to return it back to aging...........
Quote from: Boofer on May 30, 2010, 05:19:28 PM
...waited 45 minutes, checked the acidity and had 6.85 (started with 6.93). .... An hour and a half later and I'm only at 6.68...looking for 6.45. Isn't 90F too warm for Aroma B or any other meso culture? I decided to try and kickstart it. I added 1/8tsp Flora Danica. An hour later and it's at 6.65.
Wow Boof. This make is off the deep end. :o
Something is seriously wrong with with your meter, your calibrations, your testing technique or your milk. Milk should always start at 6.6-6.7. Anything out of that range and I won't use it for cheese. Have NEVER seen one at 6.93 or anything close. 90F is not too hot for a Meso. They're fine up to 102-105 depending on the species. The culture was doing it's thing and you should NOT have "kick started it". With the additional starter bacteria and the extremely long ripening time, you are pretty well guaranteed to end up with an extremely acidic cheese. Did you measure the pH after pressing? You can try letting the Propionic bloom, then throw this one in the back of your cave and wait about 2 years. A very long aging MIGHT mellow it out.
Sailor - I thought I did everything right. I knew the Extech was calibrated, but during this make I recal'd the meter to confirm it wasn't the problem. I've begun to capture this cheese in the following thread:
https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,4044.0.html (https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,4044.0.html)
I really had some doubt about adding the Flora Danica but I saw no other recourse. Should I have waited and...waited some more? Taking those two final readings does make me believe I will have yet another acidic, crumbly cheese. I doubt that years would mellow out such a cheese.
I am determined to try it again...at least as a sanity check.
So if I were to try it again and I tested the cold milk at 6.93pH or something similar, should I reject that milk without any further thought?
-Boofer-
Quote from: Sailor Con Queso on June 01, 2010, 02:12:44 AM
Milk should always start at 6.6-6.7. Anything out of that range and I won't use it for cheese. Have NEVER seen one at 6.93 or anything close.
I just poured a glass from my open 1% milk jug: 6.78 @ 52.2F The high end of your range.
Granted, that's not close to what I was seeing, but then it's not whole (unopened) milk either. I'm using pasteurized, homogenized industrial whole milk.
I'm not sure what technique I should be using to test with the Extech. Seems relatively straight-forward. The only thing I can think of is that I hold the rinsed tip in the milk and wait until the temperature stabilizes at some point.
-Boofer-
Maybe our moderator can move a few posts to the other thread that you started and just referenced. LinuxBoy may have some additional insight, but there's no way that I would use milk that was at 6.93 unless I knew exactly why. First of all, don't measure it cold. Let it warm up to at least room temp and then take a reading. Fresh cow's milk should be 6.6-6.7. If it's a little lower than that, then lactic bacteria are starting to kick in, making the milk more acidic - generally from milk that isn't fresh and is on it's way out.
High pH is generally indicative of a high somatic cell count (SCC) and some sort of health problem or poor hygiene. There are lots of causes for this. Perhaps Farmer or one of our cow or goat herders can give some insight.
In general, a high SCC milk will:
- Increase mineral content and affect coagulation
- Decrease lactose content and affect aging
- Decrease casein content and increase whey protein
- Increase the likelihood of pathogens
- Increase non-protein nitrogen
- and increase pH up to 7.5
In any case 6.93 is just not normal and I personally wouldn't use it.
Wonderful post, Sailor. I don't have much more to add. If that meter is calibrated, then the milk really is off. Only times I've seen milk be that high is when an animal is sick. I've also sometimes seen it in extremes of lactation periods, but even then it wasn't above 6.8.
I'm not sure it's SCC, though, because with higher SCC, you will get long time to floc. Boofer's was 8 mins, IIRC?
Sailor - Excellent dissertation on my possible problem. That deserves a cheese.
I did test at heating temp and it remained in the 6.8 range so that might indicate the high SCC.
If I test the milk right out of the fridge and it tests too high, that would save me the hassle of going any further using an inferior starting product. Could I expect to test reasonably at the fridge temp? I do understand that the pH will adjust with the temp.
linuxboy - my floc time was actually 5min. I concluded that it was so aggressive because it had been prepped for so long.
It occurs to me that more than one animal would have to be sick because the milk from the animal is combined with a large number of other animals. With that, the degraded milk from one animal alone would be a virtual "drop in the bucket".
I'm going to go to another store this afternoon and buy 4 gallons from the same dairy from a different store and make the same recipe tomorrow morning. I will make a decent baby swiss!
-Boofer-
Quote from: Sailor Con Queso on June 01, 2010, 04:40:42 AM
High pH is generally indicative of a high somatic cell count (SCC) and some sort of health problem or poor hygiene. There are lots of causes for this. Perhaps Farmer or one of our cow or goat herders can give some insight.
here is a link that could be interesting, it's about SCC
http://www.milk.org/Corporate/view.aspx?content=Farmers/SomaticCellCount (http://www.milk.org/Corporate/view.aspx?content=Farmers/SomaticCellCount)
Boof,
Yet another reason I won't make cheese without a good pH meter. You have bad milk. Don't know why, but nonetheless, it's bad. So absolutely, positively, irrefutably, test before starting. If the pH isn't between 6.6-6.7, don't use it for cheese because it's probably going to fail anyway. If it tastes OK, then drink it or use it for cooking. However, I must say I would flush a 6.75 or higher. Below 6.55, the milk is about to spoil. Use it quickly.
If your values are correct, this is really bad from a public health standpoint. I would discuss this with your grocery store and the dairy. I would MAKE them explain to me why the pH is so high. This could be chemical (additive or contamination) and not a disease problem. Either way is not good. If they won't give you a direct plausible explanation, I personally would report them to the local health department. YES, I think a pH of 6.93 needs drastic measures.
The Extech will compensate for temperature but you need to give it time to adjust. So be sure to look at the temp readout before recording pH values. A LOT happens overnight, so the pH of the cheese just after you remove it from the press is really important. That gives you something of an idea about how everything is coming together before brining, aging, and the final stages ahead. So don't forget to test and record.
boof where did you get the milk? from a farmer? was the milk from the tank or is it from a cow he milks separate in the milk bucket?
if it's from the bucket?? I would ask way is she beeing milked in the bucket?
if we milk some cows in the bucket and not in the tank then there are a few reasone.
1. she just freshed
2. she is treaded with meds
3. she is a high canditade of SCC
4. she has mastitis
these cows do never go in to the milktank
from #1 we use it for her calf and the leftover gets fed diludet to bigger calfs or I bring it here for my chickens.
2,3 and 4 we dump.
zamel - Unfortunately I have to buy my milk from the store. It's industrial dairy milk produced on a very large scale. If it was a perfect world, we would all be drinking and using raw unpasteurized, unhomogenized milk. Consider yourself very fortunate.
Sailor - Today I picked up 4 gallons of homo/past whole milk from a different store than I bought my first milk from. Taking the lead from you, I pulled a sample tonight and tested it. See the photo. From what you tell me, this stuff should be tossed as well.
My next step will be to head down to the only local source I have for raw milk. More expensive, but at this rate...maybe cheaper. :(
-Boofer-
Which milk is that, Boofer? Western Family? Dairygold?
Darigold. The first was from a market chain called Saars. This latest was from Albertsons.
Do I really have enough to go to management at either of these stores?
-Boofer-
Saars and Albertsons both buy from the Dairygold distributor; it's all the same. I don't like it personally, prefer either Alpenrose or Whole Foods brand, or summer Costco milk for retail brands. Maybe your meter is off? Then again, don't know how it can be off when you're hitting the buffer targets. Maybe it's off by just a little, though? .1 or so?
My last batch of fresh Dairygold was 6.72.
If the meter calibrates to 4.0 and 7.0 how can it then be off? Am I missing something?
-Boofer-
Quote from: Sailor Con Queso on December 13, 2009, 09:36:31 PM
OK, cut the "Baby" today and I was thrilled. The eyes, the flavor and the texture are absolutely perfect. Other than my Stiltons, this is my best cheese yet. Now, can I duplicate it? ::)
Very old thread, Sailor, but linked to from a new post this morning. Just want to say, man, that's a beautiful cheese. I'll have to make room in my days for at least one run with the shermanii given its play-time!
Quote from: ArnaudForestier on June 20, 2011, 02:24:03 PMVery old thread, Sailor, but linked to from a new post this morning. Just want to say, man, that's a beautiful cheese. I'll have to make room in my days for at least one run with the shermanii given its play-time!
(apologies in advance to our Southern compatriots here) Ah . . . . just don't let it march all the way to the sea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherman's_March_to_the_Sea), eh?
Ahem. Seriously, though, nice thread necromancy. I love the pics of SQC's 'bulging baby'!
Quotenecromancy...
Great. Now I've
really been found out. 8)
I make lots of Baby Swiss and it is SO much more flavorful than the store bought commercial stuff. Just keep in mind that P. shermanii is very salt sensitive. Too much and you will retard growth, flavor, and eye formation. This is one cheese that I err on the side of too little salt. Many failures that I have seen ongoing throughout the Forum are probably from over salting.
It's difficult to get huge eye formation with small wheels, but the taste can still be great.