let me preface this by syaing I know virtually nothing about making alcohol aside form using kits before. In NZ it is apparentlu not possible for mere mortals to purchase grain alcohol. In fact the most potent I can find at the liquor store is 80 proof. I would like to have 90% or higher for making tinctures, extracts and a hos tof other useful things.
I have a distiller that I brought with me from the US, I built it for making essential oils. It is, as near as I can tell, very similar to an acohol still. It has a flask for holding/heating water, then another one to hold plant matter and a final step with a condensor.
Here's my quesiton, if I put 80 proof Vodka in the distiller, will I get it more concentrated out of the other end? I'm guessing no, but I would like to hear opinions.
How long is your column between the flask and condenser? Do you have a way to achieve reflux? Might be possible to mod your existing still if you post a diagram or some pics.
Even going straight through, if you use low heat, you should be able to get 60-80% to start, and it will decrease as you keep collecting.
Me, no. I have been reading everything under the sun about alcohol and would not trust anything that has been home distilled.
Quote from: whichwhey? on October 13, 2009, 01:01:21 AM
Me, no. I have been reading everything under the sun about alcohol and would not trust anything that has been home distilled.
Interesting, what makes you say that? Most commercial producers operate a continuous still process and do not make cuts of higher volatiles like ethyl acetate and acetone that are present in the first fractions of distillate, nor do they cut the tails that have heavier oils. Those things are what cause hangovers. Aging and using charred barrels helps with getting rid of some nasties but not all. A pure hearts fraction from the middle, on the other hand, is much purer, but more expensive to produce.
Some smaller-scale distillers produce quality products, but the major commercial stuff out there is made without cuts.
While this is not my setup (found it online) mine is quite similar in size and dimension. As far as reflux goes, I have no idea what that is. th eone important difference between this still and mine is that between the top of the first flask and the start of the cond. I dip down into another flask that is filled with more plant material. I forget what my reasoning was for this, but it worked pretty well in the past. I will dig it out tonight and take some photos.
Ah, gotcha, a classic lab-style oils extractor. Reflux is when some of the vapor is knocked back down the column as liquid, and then the heat from below turns it back to vapor. What happens inside the column is that higher up, the temp is higher, and lower in the column, the temp is lower. And the longer the column, the greater control you can have. If you have a reflux system, it basically distills multiple times inside the column so by the time the vapor comes out, it's more concentrated.
With your existing setup, I think it would be tough to get above 60%. Home distillation is legal in NZ, and there are a few good suppliers in Australia and NZ. Have you thought about buying a new still or making a new one? I think it would be easier and more cost-effective than modifying what you have. And that way, you can have a dedicated oils extractor :).
Oddly enough my corner convenience store has a pretty extensive range of homebrew supplies, including distillers. They start at $800 though.
Why is 60% my limit? I do have access to an ok lab here at the factory. Mos tof our tests have been farmed out so there is an excess of equipment I am able to use.
How about freezing vodka and filtering? Could I remove water that way?
The 60% has to do with the way distillation works. At the beginning, in regular pot still mode with no reflux, the distillate will be around 80%. It quickly goes down in concentration, though, as more water liquid is turned to vapor. End result is that your average after collecting a bit will be around 60. Now you could take that 60% and distill again, and collect in small containers, maybe 1/20th of the total volume. That way your first 4-5 containers will be very concentrated. It's one way to get what you want, but it is laborious.
Freezing would work to concentrate, but you'd need a pretty low temp for vodka.
I just checked out some NZ still prices and I had no idea they were that high
http://www.brewcraft.co.nz/wa.asp?idWebPage=9608&idDetails=298 (http://www.brewcraft.co.nz/wa.asp?idWebPage=9608&idDetails=298)
Found one for 462 http://4abrew.co.nz/online-shop/76 (http://4abrew.co.nz/online-shop/76)
Maybe try one off ebay?
http://cgi.ebay.com/Copper-Alcohol-Moonshine-Ethanol-Still-E-85-Reflux-NR-1_W0QQitemZ290349316057QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item439a2af7d9 (http://cgi.ebay.com/Copper-Alcohol-Moonshine-Ethanol-Still-E-85-Reflux-NR-1_W0QQitemZ290349316057QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item439a2af7d9)
Quote from: linuxboy on October 13, 2009, 01:07:47 AM
Quote from: whichwhey? on October 13, 2009, 01:01:21 AM
Me, no. I have been reading everything under the sun about alcohol and would not trust anything that has been home distilled.
Interesting, what makes you say that? Most commercial producers operate a continuous still process and do not make cuts of higher volatiles like ethyl acetate and acetone that are present in the first fractions of distillate, nor do they cut the tails that have heavier oils. Those things are what cause hangovers. Aging and using charred barrels helps with getting rid of some nasties but not all. A pure hearts fraction from the middle, on the other hand, is much purer, but more expensive to produce.
Some smaller-scale distillers produce quality products, but the major commercial stuff out there is made without cuts.
I mean home distilled.
Okay Linuxboy... I have to ask.
Is your real name Owsley Stanley, the LSD guy from the 1960's?
It seems to me that you know a LOT about anything to do with chemistry.
I am simply amazed at the knowledge you have.
Keep posting. You make this forum not only interesting, but also informative.
Dave
I thought that was Timothy Leary? :o
Nope, Timothy Leary had his little moment in the spotlight but Owsley Stanley was THE bathtub chemist of the 60's.
Of course he is most known for his LSD manufacturing but he also was pretty much a genius when it came to sound engineering.
He was the man behind The Grateful Dead's "Wall of Sound" and in fact received his nickname from the band, "The Bear".
I had the....ummm...opportunity to "speak" with him via a low carb diet forum, a couple of years ago.
Although there is no denying that the man is very intelligent, he also came across as a bit of a smart*** and was very touchy if anyone disagreed with anything that he said.
In short I did not care for the man at all.
Now having said that, I will say this.....
(disclaimer start)
When I made my comment about the possibility of Linuxboy being Stanley in disguise, I was referring to the vast amount of knowledge that LB possesses. I in NO WAY consider LB to represent any of the personality qualities I've described. I've always found him to be most helpful and his information valid. (disclaimer end)
Dave
NOW I know who your talking about. The LSD didn't do it but the Grateful Dead did!
LOL@Debi...
I did make a mistake in my previous post.....
I said that the Grateful Dead gave the Bear his nickname but I spoke incorrectly.
The nick actually came when he was a teenager and developed an enormous amount of body hair at an early age. At the time he was taking ballet classes and his classmates referred to him as the dancing bear. This was something that was immortalized on an inside jacket cover of a Grateful Dead album, but they, in fact, did not give him the nick.
He was also instrumental in designing the Dead logo of the skull and lightning bolt.
I do know quite a lot about Owsley Stanley, but like I said before he's not really my cup of tea. I believe that no matter how well informed we might be on a certain subject we can still learn from others. From what I've seen of this man he does not share my opinion, in fact it seems that the only opinion that matters is his own.
To me, that would be a pretty sad way of living one's life.
Okay, enough said.
Dave
LOL, you're too kind. I think I seem smarter on the Internet. In real life, I'm more of an idiot savant, but without the savant part :D. I do love biology and chemistry, though.
Owsley Stanley is one interesting dude.
Francois, if you read this, let me know if you want some help with putting together a column that does reflux. With a few hours of work and $150 in parts from the local plumbing shop, you can make yourself a distiller that will give you 90+% ethanol. Then you can charge it with a 80 proof vodka, or make a basic sugar wash and distill that.
I downloaded a book on Brewing and distiling from 1890 something a few weeks back that was pretty neat. I can't remember where but it wasn't google books I am thinking it was something like books online or something. I don't have the link or the book anymore but it was very interesting.
I'm going backwards from you guys. I started out with cheese now I am moving into brewing. We were out on a day trip a few weeks back and I bought an airlock and 5 gallon pail with a bung on it. It seemed like a good investment considering we have apples, peaches, passion friut, grapes, fejoas, oranges and lemons. Plus of course honey if my lazy bees ever get their act together. I should be able to brew something.
First project is going tobe mead and wine I think. After that I can worry about a distiller. I would really use it at first for making sherry and brandy. I'll keep the offer filed away in my ever forgetful mind.
Congrats on the new hobby Francois. Brewing can be as frsutrating as cheese sometimes but a lot of fun.
I won't be making anything until we have home grown product to use. As it is I have a number of projects to finish up before I start brewing. I have a motorcycle to finish and a pile of skins to tan. After that (this autumn perhaps) I'll have some time.
It is easier when the temperatures are a bit cooler I think. Less hassle trying to keep things cool with a more even temperature.
usually, I don't advertise another forum while on one, but homedistiller.org is a forum much like this, but dedicated to home distilling. It has all the information you'd ever need and more about home distilling. Read the safety portions first, as with any home distillation, the first bit that comes out of the still (the heads), is the nasty stuff that gives hangovers and is full of high alcohols, fusels, etc.
At any rate, these people on there really know what they are talking about when it comes to distilling. Much like here when it comes to cheese.
This is an old topic, but it will certainly come up again...
Home distillation doesn't have to be dangerous, and the product can be excellent. The three main problems are the Law, explosions and poison.
Be aware of your local laws. Home distilling is legal in New Zealand and one or two other countries. It is absolutely illegal to distill potable alcohol in most other countries without having a long talk with the government about taxes. In the US you need to have a commercial distiller's license, $15,000 bond, commercial space, etc. Get in touch with the Alcohol and Tobacco Tax and Trade Bureau (http://ttb.gov) for specifics.
Ethanol holds a lot of potential energy and is very flammable with a low flash point. An alcohol producing still is a controlled bomb. A tight still, proper containers, no open flames and respect for the process will keep your still from becoming an uncontrolled bomb.
Most of the poisoned moonshine troubles come from bad materials, denatured alcohol and not making cuts properly. Going blind and so on is mostly from the Prohibition days when industrial alcohol was reformulated to make it actually deadly rather than simply unpalatable. Tens of thousands died this way at government hands. It was quite a heated political debate at the time. Read The Poisoner's Handbook (http://www.amazon.com/Poisoners-Handbook-Murder-Forensic-Medicine/dp/B0040RMEF8/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1302347974&sr=1-1) for in depth information plus all sorts of interesting history about poisons and forensic medicine.
If you're going to do this and have satisfied the Law or at least your evaluation of the benefits and risks of breaking it you'll need information. There are some excellent resources out there. Among the best are the Home Distiller's Forum (http://http://homedistiller.org/forum/) and Artisan Distillers (http://www.artisan-distiller.net/phpBB3/index.php). The Bible for distillers is Nixon and McCaw's The Compleat Distiller (http://www.amphora-society.com/The-Compleat-Distiller-2nd-Edition--by-Nixon-and-McCaw_p_1.html) available from the Amphora Society (http://www.amphora-society.com). Those wonderful purveyors of old tech Lindsay publications (http://lindsaybks.com) have several others (http://lindsaybks.com/prod/sub/energy.html) from Vince Gingery's still to early 20th century distiller's technical manuals.
Quote from: linuxboy on January 08, 2010, 08:01:37 PM
LOL, you're too kind. I think I seem smarter on the Internet. In real life, I'm more of an idiot savant, but without the savant part :D. I do love biology and chemistry, though.
Would that I were so blessed with such a surfeit of idiocy. :)
Old thread, glad to have come across it. I never got into the distilling game, as I knew there was nothing in my beer that could kill people, and I (mistakenly - as this thread has prompted me to find out) thought there were too many vagaries in distilling to ensure safety. Probably informed from one story from real life, my wife's family (they are Estonian) friend, an Estonian, served with the Soviet army in Siberia. It was common for the boys to make moonshine, there, out of whatever they could find. Many went blind, from what he told me. Of course, "whatever they could find" was the cause.
Francois, don't know if you've ever read the series, but as a kid I was fascinated by reading through Foxfire. The first volume had step-by-step instructions on building a still, and operating it - "Moonshining as a Fine Art (http://www.foxfire.org/thefoxfirebook.aspx)."
(also there:
Aunt Arie
Wood
Tools and Skills
Building a Log Cabin
Chimney Building
White Oak Splits
Making a Hamper out of White Oak Splits
Making a Basket out of White Oak Splits
An Old Chair Maker Shows How
Rope, Straw, and Feathers are to Sleep on
A Quilt is Something Human
Soapmaking
Cooking on a Fireplace, Dutch Oven, and Wood Stove
Daniel Manous
Mountain Recipes
Preserving Vegetables
Preserving Fruit
Churning Your Own Butter
Slaughtering Hogs
Curing and Smoking Hog
Recipes for Hog
Weather Signs
Planting by the Signs
The Buzzard and the Dog
Home Remedies
Hunting
Dressing and Cooking Wild Animal Foods
Hunting Tales
Snake Lore
Moonshining as a Fine Art
Faith Healing
Hillard Green)
-I was 10 or so, in Southern California, and really wanted to build a still. I also wanted to raise a hog to slaughter. My mom begged off, for reasons unknown to me. ;D
François,
Here in Brazil, making alcohol for human consumption as well as for automobiles is quite commonplace. I don't know how much volume you need, but you do need a column at least 1.8 meters tall for results of about 92% in a single pass. This can be glass, stainless or copper and can be as small a diameter as 35mm. It is best to be able to fill the column with some hard spheres, glass marbles work well or ball bearings. The water will condense on these spheres and return to the pot and the alcohol will continue up to the condenser. This is the easiest way to achieve the Reflux that Linuxboy mentioned. As the column gets shorter, the amount of water vapor reaching the condenser increases, yielding a weaker concentration.
The length of the condenser depends on how cold you can keep the condenser tube as well as your volume. You can do a great job of keeping water vapor out of the condenser only to let the alcohol vapor not have time to condense before it gets to the end of the tube and be lost.
In the glass setup pictured, you will be able to remove about 10% of the water present with each pass by keeping the temperature at the head of the pot to < 85ºC and filling the middle vessel pictured with Marbles.
That's a good design, Joe. Another option is to use ceramic rings (raschig), or to use copper mesh rolled up and stuffed inside the column. I like the copper because sometimes when distilling organic volatiles, you get bits of sulfites and other nasties (especially with wine, the grapes are dusted with sulfur), and the copper helps to take care of it. Usually not necessary to use copper mesh when using a copper pipe for a column
Here, every farming community has at least a couple Cachaça producers. This is made from Sugar cane and is normally about 85 proof. Here is a link to one of the better known manufacturers of copper stills. Some great pictures and ideas. ATF would have a fit with one of these in Seattle
http://www.alambiquessantaefigenia.com.br/internas/galeriadefotos/index.php (http://www.alambiquessantaefigenia.com.br/internas/galeriadefotos/index.php)
Quote from: coffee joe on April 09, 2011, 04:49:30 PM
Here, every farming community has at least a couple Cachaça producers.
Oh my...many fond, and painful, memories of good times with my friends from Minas Gerais, at Berkeley. :o
I actually have Foxfire's 1-5 on the book shelf next to the computer I am using so yes, I am familiar with them.
I haven't run the still in a few months. Mostly because I have a few litres of rum and some schnapps, and I don't drink it, so I don't need any more until I have to barter for something. Thanks for the design though CoffeeJoe, if I ever start making more than a litre at a time I'll look into it.
A farmer down the road has an entire brewery in storage in one of his sheds. A local brewery went out of business and they asked him to store the equipment for them. That was 15 years ago and no one's been back since. He has no idea what's there or what sort of condition it is in, but he invited me down to have a look. When things calm down a bit I may have a look, you never know there could be a still there.