Gouda newbie here..
It appears that there are HUGE variations in pressing weight between recipe to recipe???
The Gouda recipe on this website has quite light weights compared to say Ricki Carrolls
I work solely in kg
The recipe here for 2 US Gallons of milk
is 2kg for 15 mins
6kg for 1 hour
11kg overnight (8-16 hours)
Ricki Carrolls is
9kg for 20 mins
13.5kg for 20mins
22.5kg overnight (12-16 hours)
Why such a huge variation? Both are based on 2 US gallons of milk.
I have made cheese with both weights and the lighter pressing is a disaster!!!
A lot depends on the way it's made and we each have slightly different techniques and pressing styles. I always press lighter but longer. Start low and add weight as the cheese demands. If you add to much weight in the begining you can actually trap the whey between the curds and as it ages and dries out it leaves holes. As strange as this may sounds ... let you cheese talk to you. you can see when it's ready for more weight.
thks for the hint re weights Debi.
The last gouda I made is the closest to starting to look/taste right at its infancy... but alas the pressing weight was far too light and I fear it will be a disaster like the other two I sampled earlier on today. Previous to that I had used higher pressing weights.
Can you tell me why the two recipes above have such diff weights? The time frames are somewhat similiar.
Like I said eariler different people have different pressing schedules. What was the temperature of your curds when you pressed them? Maybe they were too cold maybe? I have a hard time which my curds chilling realy fast in the winter. My kitchen is only about 65F degrees and the whey chills so fast. I try to keep my molds in a bucket to hold the heat in somewhat while I load the curds in the winter. I forget where you are from.
Deb-we are going to start calling you "the cheese whisperer". I have to agree with you, the curd temp seems to be very important, at least as important as the amount of initial pressure used. All in favor of Deb's new user name give me a who-ahh! ;D
;D Well it's like most anything else it has it's ways of telling you when it's time. I think tasting is impotant. You may not feel a soft mushy curd but you will definately taste it. When it taste like cheese it is cheese.
Now I will admit I haven't figure this out for the soft mold ripen cheese they are just all fluff but it works for the pressed cheeses.
cheers, the only diff in my recipe was I altered the pressing weights.
the diff between the 2 pressing weights is at least half.
nevermind.... I will just increase my weight again and not use the weights listed here. Coz up until then my cheese WAS tasting nice. yes it was....
I just wondered why there is such a diff. 50% increase/decrease is big.
Thks anyways
Cath....
I have started pressing Gouda as follows:
I start with 2 p.s.i. on the wheel and then move on to 4 p.s.i. for the final press.
I've found that this will leave you with a nice closed curd at the end of the pressing.
The reason that I've switched to using p.s.i. is because this is a constant no matter what size of mold you are using. Although the weight applied will be different for a 4" mold than an 8" mold the p.s.i. stays the same.
If this is not a method you are familiar with simply do a search on p.s.i.. I'm sure you will find many posts on this subject.
If you still have questions I will do my best to answer them.
Good luck in your cheese making endeavors.
Dave
cheers Dave,
I have actually downloaded a spreadsheet from here regarding psi coz it makes definite sense..
And I saw it in action here when I was mucking around with diff molds..
I just need to get my head around it...
some of my molds are rectangles...
Thks for that,
I will grab the spreadsheet and try to work it out...
Of course I have to convert everything over to kgs/grams and inches to cm and stuff *sigh*, but thats OK.
cath s, if you need help with the rectangular mold numbers let us know.
Dave, I came to the same conclusion regarding gouda psi. 2 for initial and 4 for the final press.
Quote from: cath s on January 09, 2010, 11:17:06 AM
cheers Dave,
I have actually downloaded a spreadsheet from here regarding psi coz it makes definite sense..
And I saw it in action here when I was mucking around with diff molds..
I just need to get my head around it...
some of my molds are rectangles...
Thks for that,
I will grab the spreadsheet and try to work it out...
Of course I have to convert everything over to kgs/grams and inches to cm and stuff *sigh*, but thats OK.
Although I don't like Ricky's way of cheese making, from the two examles of pressing weights you mentioned, I'd go with her's (only this time ;))
Rectangular moulds - easier to calculate area: length x width
To convert psi to km/sq-cm:
1 pound-force/square inch (PSI) = 0.070307 kilogram-force/square centimeter
thks alot Alex and FarmerJD...
With working out the PSI on the molds, heightXwidth
what height do you use??? maybe it sounds like a stoopid question :o. Do you use the height of the mold or the height of the curd that sits in the mold before pressing???
All of my molds are homemade jobs, I have various sizes.
And one more question ;D
How do you work out height/width on a ROUND mold????? What about a heart shaped one????
Thnks for taking the time to help me...
I love/adore making cheese and the help here is invaluable to me.
To calculate psi you must know the area of the surface and the weight pressing down on it. If it is a round hoop then you use the circle area formula (3,14 x radius x radius) to find the area and then divide the weight by that.
For example:
4 in round hoop with 30 lbs on it:
radius = 2 in
Area = 2 x 2 x 3.14 = 12.56 square inches
Pressure = weight / area = 30/12.56 = 2.39 psi or pounds per square inch
With a rectangular hoop you figure the width and length of the part in contact with the follower. The height (from the top of the curds to the bottom) is not a factor and it changes any way as the cheese compresses.
For example:
4 inch by 6 inch hoop of any height with 30 lbs on it
Area= 4 x 6 = 24 square inches
Pressure =weight / area = 30/ 24 = 1.25 psi
A heart shaped mold requires calculus. ;D I would estimate it and I am sure you'll be close enough. I hope that helps.
oh thanks so much for this!!!!
I have had the downloaded spreadsheet on PSI for aages but didnt entirely understand the whole thing.
Now I do!
I am going to grab some milk from our cowshed this afternoon and make some cheese....
:)
I have more confidence in the weights now... and boy was I using some very light weights...
The 'lightweights' have been frozen to be used as grating cheese.
perhaps one more question........
with regard to height of the curd in your mold, I use pipes and things, what would be the highest height of cheese you would use???
It probably sounds odd, but you dont want a 'tube' of cheese, or even a 'square' I would think.
Is there a certain 'height' formula one should never go over????
I hope I have explained it properly... I just want to make sure with my homemade molds I am not overfilling the mold coz my heights may be waaay higher than the purchased ones.
To be honest, I have tinkered with the idea of making my cheeses in hoops that were 7 inches round and as tall as I need them. My purpose was to make a tube of cheese that I could vacuum seal in my 11 inch bags. One day maybe I'll try it. I use pipe myself; the only limiting factor is your pressing setup. It really doesn't matter about the height.
cheers....
so height has nothing to do with it?
thks for taking the time to help me out....
I think height (depth of curd) does play a part. I as writing a response, but then I realized I've posted on this topic in the past.
I did a little search. Here (https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,821.msg6186.html#msg6186)
I was referring to the psi calculation when I said height has nothing to do with it. There is no variable in figuring psi that is influenced by the height of the column. This is not the same as saying it doesn't affect the cheese. It may or may not. My education leads me to say it doesn't. My experience leads me to say my education is incomplete. ;) In any case I am quite sure the difference would be insignificant to the quality of the cheese as long as you flipped the cheese with each weight change.
cheers wayne and FarmerJD...
Its interesting isnt it......
Commercial producers often stack hoops (vertically or horizontally) so they can press more than one cheese at a time. The PSI used remains constant regardless of how many hoops are being pressed. So, obviously height has little or no effect.
Well, i'm not sure.
The big operations use a vacuum in conjuntion with the tall cheddar towers.
The smaller commercial operations use smaller containers that require flipping.
I just can't help but beleive that really deep curds push back a bit, and that the depth of the curd plays some role.
I could be wrong, but i need just ponder that for a while.
I can agree that in a horizontal press the weight of the stacked cheeses would mater "as much" but in a vertical tower the weight of all those cheeses has to be considered in the final calculations. They always have the same amount of wheels so they wouldn't have to change it.
certainly - I would have thought the higher your cheese, measureably more pressure is being placed at the bottom of 'stack', whereas the top would be receiving less.
The same would apply to any height but say on a horizontal stack the diff is too small to measure, but vertical would increase as the height increases.....
maybe not???
something to ponder...
I never see 'artisan' cheese being made that has any height to it, they all appear to be around a certain 'dimension' regardless of size/weight of the cheese.
In a vertical stack the stiffness of the cheese sort of matters. It depends on how you look at it. The pressure (psi) remains constant. The air ram adjusts the pressure in the cylinder to correspond to the pre-set pressure. The more curd in the stack, the more push back and the ram adjusts.
PSI is constant. Weight is not. ::)
Imagine filling the bottom half of a hoop with cream cheese and the top half with cheddar curds. Now press with 10 PSI. As the pressure travels down the column from the top to the bottom everything will eventually reach equilibrium and be at the SAME PRESSURE. The cream cheese will compress faster because it is softer but everything will be pressed to a consistent density. Anything that can't be compressed will be expelled like excess whey. Because the cheddar curds are much more dense to start with, they will be simply be pushed into the softer cream cheese and everything will try to meld together. If you started with 1/2 Gouda and 1/2 Cheddar, then the blending of the 2 curd types won't be as distinct.
Consider the tires on your car. You don't put 4 gallons of air in the tire, you use a gauge to measure the pressure at 32 psi (or whatever). This PSI is a constant even though cars are different sizes and different weights. A larger , heavier car will use less VOLUMN of air to achieve the same PSI.
Do I dare continue this thread? :-\ Sailor, you know I agree with you but I must play devil's advocate. This is not air in the column or even a liquid. It is a somewhere between a solid and a liquid and it becomes more of a solid with time. This makes no difference if this were an open system (meaning no walls on the sides but the solid kept its shape) However, with a semi- solid, it is possible that in a closed container the interaction between the walls and the solid can actually prevent the force from being transfered through out the mass. If I were in a tube and my kids were under me with a weight on my head I could keep some of the weight off them by transferring it to the walls with my hands friction. (That is perhaps the lamest example I have ever given but oh well) With curds in a deep hoop either vertical or horizontal there can't be perfectly even distribution of the pressure because of this. If it was a liquid or gas, then it would be possible; that is how hydraulics work. The pressure is evenly distributed throughout the system. i don't think one can say the same for cheese curds. Again this is really a moot discussion because nobody is measuring pressure to the nearest tenth.
As far as the deeper curds pushing back more, they can only do so if they are braced against something else. Eventually the only "something else" is the bottom. (Unless they can put their hands on the sides. ;) )
Yes. In a "closed" container, liquids and semi-solids would not be compressed equally. HOWEVER - :o We don't use closed containers. All those tiny little holes in both the cheesecloth and the hoop make this a self-bleeding hydraulic cylinder. Anything that can't be compressed escapes thru the holes. Everything remaining will TRY to reach an equilibrium pressure. Yes there are forces of friction with multiple calculations that are way over my head. But, that's why we flip our cheeses - to help equalize pressure even better.
As Francois said, they use a constant PSI, even with vertical stacks. So from a practical standpoint a Gouda pressed at 4 PSI is the same for a 6" hoop or a commercial stack. PSI is the constant link.
Cath, there's several discussions on amount of pressing weight in several threads in this board (https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/board,183.0.html) including issues about height, mold type (escape route for whey), and acidity of curds.
On pressing weight for Gouda, I did some research here (https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,1811.0.html), also the Salmon Arm Canada cheese maker video (https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,1176.0.html) is useful to get an idea, they press for up to 2.5 hours only and when pressing their biggest 4 kg wheels.
Also, I believe member Debi also presses lighter than 4 psi as I do, I remember here pictures with large cans as weights for here 7" diameter wheels.
Have fun!
Pressure distribution is not uniform, that's why we flip the hoops, for even pressing.
I see what you are saying Sailor the PSI on the cheese remains constant - I agree with that. THey will stive to achieve the same press regardles of the mechanics involved.
What I was thinking is the pressure required on the ram to get that same PSI will change based on the posiition and numbers of cheeses in the device.
Quote from: John (CH) on January 10, 2010, 11:32:26 PM
Also, I believe member Debi also presses lighter than 4 psi as I do, I remember here pictures with large cans as weights for here 7" diameter wheels.
Have fun!
Yes I am of the less is best but longer is stronger philosophy ... ;)
I use #10 cans of tomatoes or beans or something. Sometimes one or sometimes two and sometimes I use different sized cans and force it under my cabinets for more pressure. Depends on how they look and feel to me after a few flips.
Quote from: FRANCOIS on January 11, 2010, 12:11:44 AM
Pressure distribution is not uniform, that's why we flip the hoops, for even pressing.
While I get PSI. I really do.
But its that stiffness, that springiness of the curd, and the distribution of that pressure (PSI) throughout the wheel innards, that I was trying to articulate previously.
I don't know exactly what the effects are, but I cannot help but think that depth of pile of curds (more stiffness, more resistance to press pressure) plays some part in the press process.
Hypothetical example:
Consider 2 wheels of cheddar being pressed at 5psi
Wheel A: 8in diameter and 6 inches tall
Wheel B: 8in diameter and 600inches tall
In my minds eye, the pressure in the middle of both wheels will not be the same.
It's a mute point as most cheeses adhere to strict aspect ratios. Exeptions to the rule (like emmentaler) are for very good reasons. I see your point and yes, wheel B would have curd consistency issues, but it's not anything that should keep you up at night.
Wayne,
Do you feel like the density of your large cheddars is substantially different towards the middle of the wheels?
Longer pressing means more acid production prior to brining.
Why is Emmentaler an exception to the rule? Because of production size?
Wheels generally conform to strict windows of height vs. width as well as volume to surface ratios. Emmentaler violates both because it needs a weird aspect ratio to form eyes properly.
Okay Francois...you just got my attention.
What do you mean by weird aspect ratio concerning an Emmentaler?
Does the size of the wheel, really affect the amount and size of eyes that will be formed?
If so, what is the aspect ration we should be looking for?
I've been working with this particular cheese for a number of years and have yet to produce an example that I am happy with.
The taste is right, the texture is right but I have never formed the types of eyes that are seen in commercial examples.
Maybe this is not the right thread for these questions but I really am very curious about this. If you would feel more comfortable, doing so, please post your reply as a new topic in the swiss style forum.
Thanks in advance.
Dave
I love this forum. ;D I just read the last 10 posts and it is just amazing. We really are a bunch of cheese nerds.
Quote from: Sailor Con Queso on January 11, 2010, 01:14:30 AM
Do you feel like the density of your large cheddars is substantially different towards the middle of the wheels?
I don't know.
Basically, its just an intuition I have failed to articulate effectively, but one that FRANCOIS referred to when he spoke of the nonuniform pressure distribution inside a wheel
Incidentally, Francois's reference to non-uniform pressure distribution inside a a block of cheddar is confirmed here. (http://jds.fass.org/cgi/reprint/77/10/2865.pdf)
I would say yes the center of the cheeses on my 20 lb wheels is less knitted; especially the 10 inch ones. I assumed this was a whey expulsion problem but I guess after reading Wayne's link even that could be related to uneven pressure issues.
Sailor, I see your point about the whey expulsion supporting an open system view, but the curds themselves are closed so it is very complicated. But psi is definitely the common link. Agreed.
Quote from: John (CH) on January 10, 2010, 11:32:26 PM
Cath, there's several discussions on amount of pressing weight in several threads in this board (https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/board,183.0.html) including issues about height, mold type (escape route for whey), and acidity of curds.
On pressing weight for Gouda, I did some research here (https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,1811.0.html), also the Salmon Arm Canada cheese maker video (https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,1176.0.html) is useful to get an idea, they press for up to 2.5 hours only and when pressing their biggest 4 kg wheels.
yes cheers John...I have my answers about pressing weight earlier on the piece... thank you adding in some more useful info.
I am very interested in the current discussion tho......
Does that mean I am a cheese nerd??? A noobie cheese nerd???
Quote from: FarmerJd on January 11, 2010, 03:05:03 AM
I would say yes the center of the cheeses on my 20 lb wheels is less knitted; especially the 10 inch ones. I assumed this was a whey expulsion problem but I guess after reading Wayne's link even that could be related to uneven pressure issues.
Sailor, I see your point about the whey expulsion supporting an open system view, but the curds themselves are closed so it is very complicated. But psi is definitely the common link. Agreed.
A 20# wheel that is 10 inches thick? I would think that aspect ratio is pushing it on even a small commercial scale. It takes immense pressures for our 50# blocks which are about that thickness.
As far as emmental aspect ratios, I have commercial experience with copies of this cheese and it really only works well (big uniform eyes) with thicknesses around 5-6 inches and diameters no less than 16 inches. Even then it's critical to have them painted with PVA to give us much stiffness during formation as possible and to keep the gas encapsulated. Emmental is weird because bigger wheels just have bigger diameters. You won't find them thicker though. It simply won't scale in thickness like most other cheeses.
Francois, I was referring to the hoop diameter not thickness (sorry I didn't make that clear). I sometimes use a 12 inch hoop so my wheels are not so tall. The only catch is that it greatly reduces my pressure because of the added area. This is why I am interested in this topic. I can only produce about 15 - 20 psi on the 10 inch right now. The 12 inch hoop produces a "less thick cheese" but it is less knitted. My 10 inch cheeses are very tall (maybe 7- 8 inches) and I am wondering what the effect is on the outcome.
Francois, so what pressure (PSI) do you use on a 16" Emmental? I suspect that would be very difficult to acheive with a home press.
35 psi final press. Pre-press is automated so I don't know that off the top of my head.
35psi across a 16inch wheel? wow.
thats about 7,000lbs of weight.
I think that exceeds even my press.
:)
WOW - Deb, that's a lot of cans of tomatos. ;)
We press in bars so it's more like 7500#. Prepress uses hydraulic pressure of about 1,000 gallons of whey, plus the weight of of curd in a 20' vertical tower. I would estimate it to be 10,000# at least.
Gee Sailor I don't think all of us put together have that many tomaotes! I better stick to the small wheels huh? ;D
Quote from: Sailor Con Queso on January 11, 2010, 08:38:55 PM
WOW - Deb, that's a lot of cans of tomatos. ;)
Not really Sailor....
Just got to your local Sam's Club or Costco. I'm sure that they have a 7,000 lb. can of tomatoes available. Of course you would have to buy them by the case.
Dave
That's 1400 five pound cans of tomatos. Or just 3 if you use the extra large Texas tomatos. (I hear the fertilizer is knee deep in Texas) ::)
;D I hear there's a lot knee deep in Texas!
The problem with tall cheeses is that they will slump during drying.
I found this thread interesting and informative.... I know it is out of date, but I thought I could add a useful piece of information for people to ponder.... There is very little air inside a cheese that is being pressed.... The material is either liquids or solids, both of which are incompressible.... The combination acts to deform in a plastic manner, ie it flows to fill the shape of the container (mould), and the solids are retained by the mould and cheesecloth, while the liquid (whey) can drain out through the holes....This reduces the volume over time, which is why you have to retighten the springs on a spring style press once in a while, as the height of the cheese gets smaller, the springs decompress, and the pressure drops....
The density of our cheese is a bit under 1, proven by the fact that they float a bit, but for the purpose of this argument, let's consider the cheese to be the same density as water.... A column of water exerts a pressure at the bottom proportional to the depth of the column.... Anyone who is a SCUBA diver will know that works out to about 1 atmosphere (14.7 psi) for each 33 feet of depth.... which is less than 1/2 psi per foot.... or about 0.037 psi per inch of depth.... It seems obvious, then, that the pressure at the bottom of a cheese will be about 0.037 psi greater per inch of depth than it is at the follower, and in the middle of the cheese about half that difference....
If we are pressing at 1 psi (based on the follower area), with a 3" deep cheese, the pressure at the bottom will be about (3 x 0.37) = 0.111 psi greater than at the top (actually a bit less, because cheese is lighter than water).... Call it 0.1 psi greater at 1 psi.... However, you flip the cheese during the pressing process, so the average pressure (over time) is only 1.05 psi.... Double the pressing force, the average pressure is 2.05 psi instead of the 2.0 you are applying.... At 5 psi, with a 3" thick cheese, the average pressure is only 1% more than what you think you are applying....
If you ever wondered why when you first apply very light pressure, the curds at the top are not knitted as well as those at the bottom, particularly on a tall cheese, there is your answer.... Correspondingly, at higher pressures, the height of the cheese (for home cheesemakers) is insignificant compared to the pressure exerted by the follower.... and the height (aspect ratio) of the mould makes no significant difference on a hard cheese....
As to why a tall, moist cheese may "slump", and expand at the bottom during air drying, this also provides your answer.... The weight of the upper part causes pressure on the lower part, stretching the rind outwards and causing the bulge.... until you turn it over.... ;)
Bob