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Every Cheddar i have ever made, as used the following DVI Culture. (mine is from Dairy Connection:)
MA Culture
(MA 11)
Mesophilic

For semi-soft and fresh cheeses:
Cheddar, Colby, Montery Jack, Feta, Chevre, etc...

Contains:

(LL) Lactococcus lactis subsp. lactis
(LLC) Lactococcus lactis subsp. cremoris   

My cheddar flavor is OK.  Not great. I'm sure the flavor has more to due to my process variables and shortcomings than the cultures.  Nevertheless I am thinking of branching out.  (Away from MA11.)  Anyone ever use, or think of using a Chr Hansen culture? (can we even do that?)
I was looking at the R-707 culture and perhaps a nonstarter "adjunct culture" like CR-210.

Why R-707?  I dunno.  Middle of the road from an acidification speed, and salt requirements.
Why CR-210? Absolutely no reason other than its first in the list of "Favor Control" adjunct cultures.

Anyone want to split an order up?

I'm just thinking out loud.

I use MM100 which is the MA11 + L. b diacetylactis. To me, the Cheddar turns out creamier and has a more complex flavor.

I recently read a blurb about adding a little thermophilic LH100 (L. lactis + L. helveticus) to enhance proteolysis (protein breakdown) during aging. Apparently Peter Dixon does this on a regular basis with several kinds of cheeses. I think Francois has a name for using a Meso/Thermo mix but it evades me at the moment.

...but I would be up for splitting cultures with you. Always willing to try new things.

QuoteI was looking at the R-707 culture and perhaps a nonstarter "adjunct culture" like CR-210.

Can you elaborate on any distinctive's of these 2 cultures?  I might be in as well; I would love to experiment.

How many ways were you looking to split up? I don't know what quantities or prices you had in mind, but I would like to try a different culture type to see how much difference would be made by changing the starter.

Here is the information pdf regarding the R-707.
I still need to check on price.  If the price is rediculous, I'm not buying.  But if costs are reasonable.  I may try this.

I will let you all know when/what I find.

I would love to get some feedback frfom Linuxboy on this.

So, that looks like what I want comes in 10 different packages of 50U each.  That is, 10 packages that will each acidify 500l of milk.
If I broke up the order from CHR Hansen,, I think it would make sense to break it up 10 ways.  I'm probably good for 2-3 packages.

Again, I'm still just thinking out loud.  I still need to see if a guy like me can even buy from them.

And I sill need to look at the "Flavor Control" cultures...

I will keep you all informed. (unless someone already knows the answer)

Quote from: Sailor Con Queso on March 03, 2010, 02:36:55 AM
I think Francois has a name for using a Meso/Thermo mix but it evades me at the moment.

I've read the same thing, I *think* its referred to generically as a "heterofermative culture". (meso/thermo mix)

I have found R-704 for sale at the Fromex web site.  I cannot find the R-707.
Since it does not look like there are substantial differences (from my perspective) between the cultures. I will be looking into what I can find. (R-704).  I have inquired as to how much it costs and will report back when I find out.

But I have not found the Flavor Control adjunct culture. (CR-213.)  If anyone knows where I could purchase that, that would be great.


"The culture enhances the overall flavor intensity of cheese by accentuating all
important flavor notes. It enhances balanced, mellow, rounded and clean flavors
and suppresses unwanted flavors such as sour, bitter and flat."

"The culture is primarily applied in the production of cheeses where normally
mesophilic lactic acid bacteria are used. This culture is particularly used in
Cheddar, Continental cheeses (rindless cheese), low-fat cheese and cheese
containing vegetable fat."

I sent an e-mail asking for a quote, will let you know when they get back to me. Oh and Chymax M launched in Europe, but not the US, so still poor availability.

meso/thermo mix is called a stabilized mix or thermo stabilized mix. Yes, Peter Dixon is fond of them. A custom primarily meso mix with only one or a few specific LH strains (for flavor/proteolysis control) added to it isn't exactly like a stabilized mix, it's more like a meso with an adjunct. To draw a comparison, it's like adding an enzyme to aid with extraction when you macerate grapes (completely different chemistry, though), vs choosing between a rhone or bordeaux yeast for specific ester formation.

hetero vs homofermentive is different, it refers to the pathway used when metabolizing sugars. More simply, homofermentive follow the EMP pathway, where pyruvate is reduced to lactic acid, and heterfermentive can also produce other stuff, like CO2, diacetyl, etc.

CHR Hansen will only sell to you if you want to buy more than $500 per order and more than $3,000 per year. Also, definitively, Chymax-M is not available yet.

If you want  to get the 707 and 213, try

http://www.kelleysupply.com/default.aspx?page=item%20detail&itemcode=M391019 (http://www.kelleysupply.com/default.aspx?page=item%20detail&itemcode=M391019)
http://www.kelleysupply.com/default.aspx?page=item%20detail&itemcode=M391221 (http://www.kelleysupply.com/default.aspx?page=item%20detail&itemcode=M391221)

Do you want me to ask what cheddar culture they recommend?

Sure! I would love recommendations.

I have registered as a customer with them.  But, I'm not sure they will approve me. 

The cost is reasonable, at $70 for box of 10X50U of  R-707.  I'm in.
(that is $7/per package, or $7/500 liters of milk, or a $1.40 per batch for me.)

Okay, I will ask. They will sell to you directly, but only if you purchase in at least the quantities I posted above.  If not, the only two authorized US resellers are dairy connection and Kelley Supply. Dairy Connection could order the 707 and 213 for you if you ask, but I do not think they stock much CHR Hansen products. Kelley Supply keeps a lot of it on hand, though, and reasonable prices for smaller volumes.

I registered with Kelly.  If my application is accepted, I will probably purcase some of each.
If and when that happens, I will gladly divide it up here,  at cost.

If you need a cheap way to ship these all out, check out http://www.worldfulfillment.com/hartford/ (http://www.worldfulfillment.com/hartford/)

Prepaid legal-size 2-day packs at $6 each. Also, for the 231 adjunct, it comes in a frozen carton, so not as convenient to repack as the 50U packs.

Kelly has an interesting product called Starter Distillates that I haven't seen anywhere else. It is obviously a diacetyl flavor enhancer, but I don't understand how or when this might be used..
_______________________

Starter Distillates
Natural Starter Distillate is a water-soluble, butter type flavor obtained by culturing skim milk based medium with special lactic cultures and subsequently steam distilling the cultured milk medium. Starter Distillate contains diacetyl and several other flavor compounds and creates a creamy butter flavor. Starter Distillate also comes in 2 strengths, 1X and 15X.

Sailor, it's just an additive. It's similar to the "butter flavor" extract you use for ice cream. It's when you want to add a buttery note to a cheese product without using the natural byproducts of fermentation. In other words, for regular use, it's not even a consideration. For processed foods and specialty products, it's a chemical to keep in mind when targeting a specific flavor blend.

Wayne, recommendation for cheddar is the 600 series for frozen, and any of the 700 series for DVS. They are the same cultures but in different formats. The selection of the specific 700 strain depends on what you want WRT acidification rate and salt tolerance and other characteristics like that. Similar proteolytic and flavor profiles for all the 700 series.

That's good to know.
I am more accustomed to DVS.  So I will probably go with that.

I do not have an operational  process that is so rigid and consistant, that I require any specific culture.  I could probably make any culture work.

I would prefer something middle of the road.

704, 707,  whatever it takes....

;)

I love my cheddar, and wouldn't want to change a thing... and there are no fancy cultures...
I think it's mostly about the milk, and also making it clothbound.
You won't get the same flavor with a waxed cheese.  I have thought that some of the flavoring cultures out there are trying to simulate what you get by just making clothbound cheddar..

I do agree that the milk is the most important factor. I have made clothboard lard bandaged cheese and natural rinds most of my adult life. I hate waxed cheese. Could be my imagination but I taste it or smell it or something. I do like the vacuum packed cheese as well as the bandaged one and it less messy. I think the key is in the first month or so of aging.

I would agree with both.  The milk is in fact the most important thing. I also prefer to wax or bandage.  (I really like to bandage)
But unfortunately, the milk is not something i can tweak.  It is what it is.

So, in contemplating those things I can change, culture is the easiest. 

The bottom line is that I would like a different cheddar taste and trying a different culture sounds interesting.

You are right, Wayne.  Not having control over your milk supply, you cannot adjust it for flavor.  homemilkers are able to do that.  I can remember, as a child, noticeing by flavor when our cows had silage added to their feed in the winter.

Your idea is interesting...and I had no idea that there were so many cultures out there until this was brought up!  I think you are on the right track....change one variable at a time until you are happy with the result.

The different breeds, feeds and grasses are what make the imported cheeses what they are. Hence the detailed descriptions in DOP certificates. What type of grass, feed, time of year etc.

We have to used cultures to imitate as closely as posible those things like adding lipase to make Italian cheeses when they don't have to. I think you are on the right track Wayne. It could just be a matter of tweaking the amounts of the cultures you do use.

Good luck and keep us posted!

I have ordered the FD DVS R707 Mesophilic Culture (CHR Hansen's) from Kelly Supply.

I opted not to go with the Adjunct culture because of the shipping costs.  (Dry Ice, Cooler, Overnight...etc)

But I will have the Culture in about a month.  The product is on back order. 

This is a carton of 10 packets.  Of those,  I will be making about 7 of those available to whoever is interested, at cost plus shipping.

I think the cost will be about $6.90USD/per packet.  I have no idea about shipping.

So, around the end of April, i expect to have these.

That's great, Wayne. Backorder means they have it scheduled for a fresh batch, so you'll be getting really viable freeze dried cultures that should last for many years. That's a good price for a 50 unit pack. And April is not too hot, so even if you send the packs first class mail, the cultures should be fine. Looking forward to hearing how it turns out.

Thanks,  hopefully others will want some of this batch as I will never be able to go through it fast enough.

I'm in for 1. Let me know when it comes in. How many gallons is one packet good for?

50U is for 500 liters, or 132 gallons, assuming 1% inoculation rate.

I think I can use that up in a year :D

Mark, I will put you down for 1. 

6 to go.

Wayne, put me down for 2.

Why not. Put me down as well.

Wayne--I'll take one!

Count so far:
Total: 10

Wayne: 3
Mark: 1
Sailor: 2
Farmer:1
Brie:1

Two left!

Wayne,

I'll take one

Deb

I'll take the last one! 

ok
Mark: 1
Sailor: 2
Farmer:1
Brie:1
H.A.H.:1
Deb:1

OK, thats it! 

This will be a bit before I can get the cultures....  But in the mean time,  PM me with your addresses...

Update:
The cultures shipped from the supplier to me today. 
Woohoo!

I will let everyone know when I mail them theirs!

OK, The cultures are in today. I divided them up and ready for shipping out tomorrow.

Costs
Culture                   10   $85.40   $8.54/ea
Envelopes      12   $7.77   $0.65/ea
Shipping                    7   $7.00   $1.00/ea (est)
                                                    $10.19  total (ea)

Totals
Mark: 1 ($10.19)
Sailor: 2 ($18.73)
Farmer:1 ($10.19)
Brie: 1 ($10.19)
H.A.M.:1 ($10.19)
Deb:1 ($10.19)
Linuxboy:1 ($10.19)

Paypal: wayne_a_harris@hotmail.com
Check: My home address (PM me.)

The box from CHR Hansen indicates that shipping can occur at ambient temperatures, so I am not shipping these in coolers or anything. Just envelopes.  Let me know if those listed don't get their packages in the next few days.

Who will be the first to try these?
-Wayne

Thanks Wayne. 

Timing is good, I was going to make cheese the next couple weekends  :D.

Dropped in the mail this morning. 
Post Office guy says Fri-Sat-Monday timeframe for delivery...

I'm excited--hope it arrives by this weekend--we'll have to have a separate topic set for this to compare outcomes! P.S. Wayne--the check's in the mail--thanks for sharing!

One thing I still do not understand.
The R-707 PDF (posted earlier in this thread) states that with this culture, you get 50% culture inhibition at 5.3% salt and 100% at 5.8% salt.

So, if the point of adding salt during milling is to stop the acidification process (among other things),  why do we use 2.0% as a guide for the amount of salt.

Does that mean that we really are looking to only provide a <50% inhibition of the culture at the end of milling?

We've talked about this before, but I still do not have a warm fuzzy on this.

Salting is  not supposed to stop acidification entirely, just put the brakes on. The 2% guideline is enough to slow things down without making the finished product too salty. A 5% salt mix would taste horrible.

If you salt a cheddar at pH of 5.3-5.4 the cheese after pressing overnight will still drop to 5.0-5.2. And that slow acidification curve carries on into the actual aging process. That's why the pH target at milling and salting is so important.

I'm doing a Pyrenees from Tim Smith's recipe right now. This is another direct salted cheese and it has been draining for an hour that the recipe calls for. The next step is milling, salting, and pressing. The pH of the drained curds right now is 5.95 but I don't want a bland cheese, so I'm going to let it get to 5.7-5.8 to give it a little more acidic bite before salting. And the finished cheese will be more meltable.

My culture arrived today--thanks, Wayne--only two days from OH to AZ--a chedderific weekend for me!

Mine arrived also, and I was worried I was going to have to wait until next weekend!
Thanks Wayne!

My biggest fear is that i got someone's address wrong.  I hope you all get them.

Mucho gracias Wayno.

Received mine yesterday also.  Thanks Wayne

Unless someone has beaten me to the punch, I may be the first one to try out the new cultures. I just innoculated the milk. Wish me luck! I'll post later on the progress.

I have not yet broken the seal

Quote from: MarkShelton on May 08, 2010, 04:54:19 PM
Unless someone has beaten me to the punch, I may be the first one to try out the new cultures. I just innoculated the milk. Wish me luck! I'll post later on the progress.

Good luck Mark! I've been having fun reading everyone's posts about this culture, and how excited you all are about diving in! Can't wait to see photos of your gorgeous cheeses!! Saturday must be cheese-day, 'cause I have a pot of milk warming right now that's destined to become Crosta Rossa with Pistachios by the end of the day!!
~Cheers!

Love your signature line...
;)

THANKS!!  ;D

I have now made an Edam, a Colby and a Cheddar with the R707. Although the R707 uses exactly the same bacteria as MA11 (which I was using before), the R707 has a MUCH steeper pH curve (because of differences in the strains). So you should be aware that the make may go faster than you have been used to. If you look at the pH curves for this culture, the pH really starts dropping about 4 hours after adding the R707 to your milk. If you are doing a cheddar for example, a more rapid pH drop may hit during the cheddaring process, so you need to watch the pH and adjust times accordingly.

This is why I don't make cheese without a good pH meter. Yes, the ancient cheesemakers never used pH meters (and pressed with rocks ;) ) but most of us are not making cheese with indigenous bacteria and have to make adjustments to the process. In this case, you could EASILY end up with an over acidified cheese.

Good point Sailor.  I think the acidification curves are posted in the attached docs earlier in this thread, but its good to get first hand validation on the behavior. Also, I  agree 100% about a good pH meter.  I don't do anything these days, with respect to cheese and wine, without one.

Essential tool.

BTW,  did everyone get their cultures?

I have been on a family vacation for the last week and a half, so I am kind of out of the loop. I did get my culture in, Wayne. I look forward to using it. Thanks again.

I didn't post here, but yes, I got mine as well. Thanks.

My first try at cheddar with this culture is yet to be seen; yet it did not knit together as well during pressing. I have never used a PH tester, with no problems, and supposed I had cooked the curds too long. Thanks, Sailor for your input, as usual. I did notice the better aroma of the cheese with this culture. Any suggestions on adjustments to basic cheddar recipe that uses this culture without PH tester? I realize, athis point, that we are experimenting....

I made a Gouda tonight with the R707. Ironically, it took longer to hit my pH targets. This culture has relatively slow acid production up until about 4 hours, then it drops quickly.

So... for a relatively short make or a washed curd, it's going to need more time for acidification. That can happen during rippening or by extending times during the make - don't want to overcook the curds though. Working with cheddar is going to be just the opposite. Since acidification really kicks in during the cheddaring phase, then things are going to start to go a lot faster. I hit my pH target about 20 minutes earlier than usual on the cheddar.

Believe it or not. I have yet to use my new cultures.
I have spent so much time/effort/money getting ready for the 2010 Wine Season,  my cheese making has really fallen off. 
My cheesemaking space in my basement has a new oak barrel and a temporary AC unit and its now just a mess. 
Plus, I really am kinda waiting on a 10kg Kadova mould.  Tired of the mould i currently use.

Is there a consensus yet on this cheese culture?  was it worth it? or is it too soon to tell? 


I will get to mine,  but it might be a few more weeks.

I have used it quite a bit but have not tasted any cheeses yet. The pH curve is REALLY different with this culture so you have to adjust timing. The acidification is really flat early on and then starts to kick in about 2 hours into the make.

Try pre-priming some milk.  Take about 1% of your total milk volume and add culture to it the day before the make.  Then when you are ready to make cheese measure the pH (should be below 4.5).  Use this as your starter culture.  Your pH should drop like a rock.

I haven't made cheese since Feb. (dried up 2 of 3 cows for summer) and won't be back into regular weekly batches until sept-oct. I plan on trying what Francois said and making a batch of milk ahead of time to use. I will post again when I use it.

Quote from: Wayne Harris on July 16, 2010, 05:57:59 PM
Plus, I really am kinda waiting on a 10kg Kadova mould.  Tired of the mould i currently use.

I am sure I have read it somewhere here but I cant recall what mold you use now. Is it Kadova? when you get your 10kg are you looking to sell your present mold? A)

Quote from: FRANCOIS on July 16, 2010, 08:27:08 PMTry pre-priming some milk.  Take about 1% of your total milk volume and add culture to it the day before the make. Use this as your starter culture.  Your pH should drop like a rock.

I like this primer approach better than doing a larger mother culture because this creates a fresh uncontaminated culture every time.

I'm gearing up to start doing regular 30 gallon batches so I'm looking for economies of scale. 30 gallons = 3840 ounces x 1% = 38.4 ounces of pre-primed milk needed. A little over a quart. So on a daily schedule I would use skim milk (so it won't be as thick), bring to a near boil, cool to 90F, add a very small amount of dry starter, incubate at room temp for 24 hours or whenever the pH gets to 4.5-5.0. Use immediately or refrigerate.

...and I assume that rennet can be added immediately after adding a primer culture since the bacteria don't have to "wake up". That would really save a LOT of time in a small production environment. Just have to think 24 hours ahead.

Room temp is fine for Mesos, but what about thermo cultures?

You still need to wait for a pH drop, so you can't add the rennet immediately.  We buy thermo mother culture, so I'm no help there.   

So just add the primed milk and wait for a .1 drop in pH before renneting. How long would you anticipate ripening this way? I know that may be a little hard to answer. I'm looking at how much time savings there might be. For example, I make lots of Stiltons (did 2 last night). I normally use Aromatic B culture and rippen for a full hour before rennet. So, could I anticipate ripening for 20 minutes (???) if using primed milk culture? I'm sure the activated culture will also drop faster in pH later in the process as well for other time savings. For example, I shoot for a pH of 5.5 before salting and hooping a cheddar. I would think that the curds should hit this pH marker much sooner than with a powdered culture. Yes?

I usually use about 1/4 tsp P. roqueforti for a 5 gallon Stilton. Could I add a little bit, say 1/16 tsp, of P. roqueforti to my primed milk mix instead to make the dry culture go further? Is that done with commercial blue mother cultures? I'm wondering the same thing for P. shermani for thermo culture.

Why do you buy thermo mother culture? Is that a frozen culture? Couldn't a thermo primed milk be ripened at 110F like in a yogurt maker?

I would say 20 minutes is a good guess.  The thing about priming is that it will give you consistent times from day to day as well.  We don't mix a primed mould mix.  I don't see the point of doing it, it's not producing a pH drop or anything, so I don't see how it provides any savings except maybe a few minutes for rehydration.  The amount of blue you add is based on the total volume of milk as recommended by the manufacturer.  It's not like it would reproduce in the prime or anything.

We purchase our thermo internally from another part of the company (we own a culture house of sorts), so it's no help to you.  It comes frozen.  You could make up a little lab heater connected to a styrofoam water bath to give you conditions for making thermo mother culture.  I'm not sure how to explain it, possibly Linuxboy will know what I mean and be able to steer you more, as I have seen it in quite a few dairy labs. 

I know what you're talking about, Francois, will try to post a more detailed answer later that covers bulk/primer practices.

I make yogurt in a dehydrator that uses 110F forced air. I'm thinking I could mix up quart glass jars of thermo primer and just rippen at the same temp in the dehydrator. That sounds too simple. What am I missing?

Can P. shermani be added in small quantities to a thermo primer mix to "stretch" a dry culture? How about in a meso mix for Baby Swiss?

Your suggestion was to let the meso primer mix sit at room temp for 24 hours or until the pH dropped below 5.0. I use heating mats to start seedings that are 80-85F. So what if I do quarts of meso primer and incubate on the seedling mats? My yogurt is always done in 12 hours, so I'm thinking a primer mix would be ready in 12-14. Not sure how to do the math or plot a pH curve on that one. I'll try it and see how fast the pH drops into range. Good old fashioned trial and error data collection. :o

You really want your starter lower than 5, 4.5 would be a minimum.  It's exponential, the pH curve.  24 hours should give you about 4.0, which is ideal.  The only way to know though is to give it a try.  Shermani is in the same boat as blue mould. I don't see much use in it, as it's not a pH driven growth.

You could, however, easily culture your blue mould using an earlimier flask, bread and a refrigerator.  I don't see much harm in stretching your dry culture that way.  If you were to try and keep it for extended periods though, it will mutate quickly.

Sailor, I culture my stuff in quart jars by putting them in a super insulated (lots of blankets) ice chest filled to just below the lid line with warm water. The water temp depends on meso or thermo. Just floating an idea.

So you're doing thermo as well? How long are you incubating at the higher temps? Are you testing pH or just hopeing for the best? From a production standpoint, I would like to start a batch around 5pm and have it ready to go the next morning around 9am. That would be 16 hours of incubation.

I have done cultured thermo for cheese a few times but my wife makes yogurt in 2 gallons batches and I just copied this method from her. I do the same thing with meso cultures now. I left the thermo in overnight (at least 8-10 hours) but I can't say the temp stayed that high that long. I did not ph test but after this discussion I will from now on; I am always "hoping for the best" ;D . Story of my life.

Don't know if this will help, but the other day I cultured 2 batches of thermo. One was originally from a purchased culture, the other an experiment from an inside cube (blended) from store-bought Parm-reg. Both were cultured in covered sterile glass mason jars in heat-treated skim milk cooled to 110* that were placed (neck deep) in a large-ish pot of 110* water placed over the stove-top pilot light to help retain heat. A couple times during the day the water was brought back to temp (jars removed while over the flame).  The generic thermo was jelled within 12 hours, and the unknown parm-reg understandably took longer to coagulate but was jelled by the morning.

These were then stirred well and then put into sano 2 and 4 oz plastic take-out type cups and frozen. No pH readings possible.

I did make an asiago type cheese using both of these yesterday and all went well. :)

Cheesemaking has been delayed for me as well this year (resulting in lots of goatcream butter in the freezer), but in a week or two I've got to hit the cheddar making before milk production drops off.
Thanks for all the feedback on this culture!

Ive been using combination of Meso and Thermo for my cheeses  and its really nice, right now im creating a recipe for my Blue Buffalo, using MM100, Thermo Type B and Flora Danica , if a recipe calls for 1/4 tsp its a matter of combining 3 ingredients sum up to 1/4 tsp. 

You're using the same cocktail mix on all of your cheeses?

Why do you say it's "really nice"?

From memory, FD has all the same strains as MM100, so you are wasting your time adding both.

Flora Danica = MM100 + LM57 (Leuc. m. cremoris). The LMC brings in a diacetyl flavor and a little CO2. Not the best choice for many cheeses.

Cheddar complex flavors and aromas actually mostly come from nonstarter lactic bacteria (NSLAB). These are lactobacilli that start growing and multiplying after the wheels are formed, and then autolyse over time to form the characteristic cheddar flavor.

LM actually has some nontraditional uses for cheddar. I'm developing an extended life fresh cheddar curd, for example, that has better flavor due to the diacetyl than normal fresh curd with only lactis and cremoris.

How much bulk culture do I need to add to the 1% of batch weight for priming? 

Quote from: H.A.M. on July 20, 2010, 05:41:49 PM
How much bulk culture do I need to add to the 1% of batch weight for priming?

Trying again... ;D

Do I use the same amount of culture in the priming 1% of batch as I would have used if adding the powdered bulk culture directly?

I'm thinking I should use only enough to get a good active starter in 12 hrs and drop the acidity to 4.5... Can anyone tell me what they add to...say a qt. of milk?

1-2% bulk equivalent. Meaning 6.5-12 DCU per 100 liter of final primer volume when using danisco culture or 10-20 U when using CHR Hansen.

So yes, add enough to get to 4.5 in about 12-14 hours for meso.

Still writing an article on all the different options with bulk, DVI, and other media. That should clear things up.

I think what he is asking is the quantity of dry culture to add to a priming batch. In other words if you normally use 1/2 tsp of dry culture when making a cheese do you add the same 1/2 tsp to the primer milk? I'm guessing that you can get by with say 1/16 tsp. The quantity doesn't seem important because the bacteria are going to multiply in the primer milk anyway. The more dry culture that you add, the faster the primer will set and reach pH 4.5. That's the real target. The ripening temperature will also play a big role. If you ripen at room temp, the milk will set much slower than if you incubate at 100F. Again, doesn't matter because the bacteria will get there anyway, just a function of time.

Once you have the primer culture ready, THEN you add it at the rate of 1-2%. Calculate the volume of your milk and just add 1%. For example if you are making a 500 ounce batch, you would add 5 ounces of the primer. Because the bacteria are already very active, you will NOT have to ripen as long as the recipes call for. Francois suggested about 1/3 of the time. If the recipe calls for 60 minutes, you would just ripen for 20 minutes or so. HOWEVER, keep in mind that what you are really looking for is a pH drop of about .1 so the rennet will work more efficiently. Without a pH meter, you will have to experiment.

Thanks, sailor. I was trying to break down 10-20 U per 100 liter down to my small batch size. Sheesh, the volume gets miniscule... Cheesemaking terminology is all self taught here, so I'm sure my wording can be confusing.  :P

I make cheddar in batches of 46- 50lbs of milk (about 6 gallons).  The night before I'll take 8 oz. of milk and innoculate with the bulk culture... Choozit MA 19 or the CHR Hansen R-707 from this thread are my two options right now.

And, I DO have a ph meter, and use the .1 drop for the addition of rennet, 3x floc, 5.9- 6.0 for cutting, and 5.4 for milling.  I still use a 1/8 -1/4 tsp for measuring dry cultures which I know is not ideal. Time to targets comes out pretty close each batch though, so I'm not real motivated to use a gram scale.
If using a primer culture instead of bulk DVI culture makes a difference in timing, I should be able to catch it. I'll be watching.  ;) A shorter make time would always be helpful!!

So yes, I wondered if there is something special about "priming" that differs from making  the "mother culture" all the beginning cheese books reference. It seemed like 1/2 tsp of culture in 8 oz was overkill if the goal was to activate the culture and hit a 4.5% in approx 12 hrs.

This probably all going to be in the article you are writing, linuxboy....
But I'll ask now.... is there any reason not to use more bulk DVI culture in the primer culture? For example, will the culture strength or balance ( especially in a more complex blend than these) be different if the 8 oz milk for pre priming, are innoculated with 1/16 tsp for 12 hrs or 1/2 tsp for for 4-6 or 8 hrs?
It sounds like it might not matter as long as the priming culture has activated to the proper level, and added to the batch at the proper ratio of 1-2%.

Quote from: Sailor Con Queso on July 24, 2010, 07:37:03 PM
I think what he is asking is the quantity of dry culture to add to a priming batch. In other words if you normally use 1/2 tsp of dry culture when making a cheese do you add the same 1/2 tsp to the primer milk? I'm guessing that you can get by with say 1/16 tsp. The quantity doesn't seem important because the bacteria are going to multiply in the primer milk anyway. The more dry culture that you add, the faster the primer will set and reach pH 4.5. That's the real target.

Right, Sailor, and just to add my understanding, you add the amount required to get to the final amount of primer at a bulk equivalent rate of 1-2%. Meaning if you wanted to make 100 liters of primer, you would add 6-13 DCU or 10-20 U and then refrigerate or freeze when the pH hits 4.5 (for meso). If the desired primer amount is something like 8 ounces, which is somewhere around .24 liters, then the proper culture amount would be .0154 DCU. In the Danisco world, a DCU is usually about .224 grams, so we're talking about an inoculant amount of .0034496 grams for 8 ounces of skim milk. But practically, what it amounts to is just putting in a tiny amount, about 1/32 or 1/16 tsp for the normal starter amount of 1-2 quarts for the typical batch sizes hobbyist makers make.

I will add that commercial culture rotation systems sometimes will use what we call in this thread a primer, then reculture that, and use the recultured product as the inoculant. In that system, the original primer amount is not 1% but more like 2-5%.

QuoteBut I'll ask now.... is there any reason not to use more bulk DVI culture in the primer culture? For example, will the culture strength or balance ( especially in a more complex blend than these) be different if the 8 oz milk for pre priming, are innoculated with 1/16 tsp for 12 hrs or 1/2 tsp for for 4-6 or 8 hrs?
It sounds like it might not matter as long as the priming culture has activated to the proper level, and added to the batch at the proper ratio of 1-2%.

It's good to ask now. I won't be done for a month, not until after ACS is over. It actually does matter, but not always. It depends on the DVI culture you are using. If you are using a culture where individual strains are grown and mixed in after they are freeze dried, then you must ensure that the ratio of those strains is the same in the final primer product. This is easier to do when adding more starter to begin with. Also, there's a bacteria growth curve starting from lag phase, going to multiplication, going to maintenance. When you hit 4.5, you want the majority to be in a maintenance phase. If you severely under or overpitch, they may not be there. Also, the temp matters. Aromatic bacteria like Leuconostoc cannot compete with very aggressive normal bacteria like Lactococcus lactis when you get to the moderate range of temps, say above 85F.

For normal cheddar culture, it's very forgiving, so long as you refrigerate or freeze when it hits 4.5 to prevent acid damage and practice aseptic handling.

Quote from: linuxboy on July 24, 2010, 09:57:35 PMIf you are using a culture where individual strains are grown and mixed in after they are freeze dried, then you must ensure that the ratio of those strains is the same in the final primer product.

This has been my hesitation about jumping into mother cultures. Some bacteria multiply more aggressively than others. So if you start with a 3 strain dry mix those 3 strains may be 25/45/30% respectively. However, if strain #1 is more aggressive you may end up with 45/30/25% after incubating a mother culture. The only real way to maintain exact ratios is to maintain separate mother cultures of each strain and add to the milk as starters in the correct proportions. Obviously that's not practical, so how do you maintain ratio integrity? That was one of the attractions for me when Francois mentioned primer cultures. Since a fresh batch would be cultured and used with every batch of cheese, on the surface this seems like it would hold ratio integrity better than a true mother culture. My rationale is that the mother culture is larger and typically used for 2 or more batches of cheese. Even at refrigeration temperatures, bacteria continue to multiply so the longer a mother culture is held, the larger the margin of ratio error.

Sailor, do you remember that discussion I had with JD in the cheddar pH thread? I recommended to make an initial batch of mother culture from DVI, freeze that, and only use that first generation. That will work for any culture, and the ratio will be very very close. The only thing you might need to do is watch the temps. Like for aromatic meso, have to watch the strain dominance and always culture at the same temp. If you're serious about using a starter, I would recommend culturing in an incubator or similar method of temp control.

A true mother culture, even for aromatic meso, has non-specific, often undefined strains. So you'll get 40-100 strains sometimes, and the cultures are fairly well established.

Also, at refrigerator temp, provided you have no psychotrophs, meso bacteria will just barely multiply. They do get damaged due to the acid, though.

With thermo, it's a bit of a different story because like for LH cheeses, they will actually start out with a low CFU/g in the cheese, and will multiply as the cheese ages. ST is a slightly different beast, so for ST cheeses, I would recommend culturing ST and LH separately. Same for bulgaricus, because bulgaricus will really crank up the acidity unless you use it right away.

We use to use MA11 but found it slow too acidify. We now use RA22 which is more tolerable to heat. Also you may try adding flavour enhancing cultures such as Lactobacillus helveticus such as the FLAV Range from Danisco

So how is everybody liking this culture?
I found a source for a wide selection of cultures which carries the 700 series and im looking for a great cheddar culture.
Should I got with the 707 or 703?

They're essentially the same, used in rotation. Pick whichever acidity curve you like best.

Ok thanks, I'l have a look at the different tech sheets. 

And what about general impression in terms of flavour\texture\aroma compered to MA or MA+LH100?
Im sure some users have expiriemnted with various cultures and made "metal notes" about the differences.