I am brand new to Cheese making. The book I'm reading tells me a good first cheese would be neufchatel. I don't like cottage cheese, so I selected neufchatel as the easiest that I would like to eat. I have 2 questions about the recipe. 1) It calls for 4 tablespoons of fresh cultured buttermilk. My question is: can I use low fat fresh cultured buttermilk? 2) the recipe says to disolve the rennet into the milk and hold at 85 degrees. Then it says the Milk should coagulate in 16 to 18 hours. Does this mean I have to keep this milk mixture sitting on my turned on stove for 16 to 18 hours? Keep my stove turned on for 16 to 18 hours? ???
Neufatchel is supposed to be easy, but I tried to make some last week and ended up with a gallon of rotten milk.....but I tried some fromage blanc, and it seems to be good....what i did was purchased a neoprene "weight loss belt" from walmart and wrapped my pot, kept in the oven overnight, and turned the oven to "warm" 2 or 3 times. I think the neoprene belt really helps, but a thick towel would probably accomplish the same thing. Good luck!
There are two type of Neufchatel American style (cream cheese like) and French type more of a brie/camembert type thing. Which are you trying to make?
Quote from: DeejayDebi on March 13, 2010, 02:33:02 AM
There are two type of Neufchatel American style (cream cheese like) and French type more of a brie/camembert type thing. Which are you trying to make?
The book doesn't say explicitly, but reading between the lines I would guess that it is American style Neufchatel. The reason . . . it says it is like cream cheese.
Quote from: umgowa on March 12, 2010, 08:16:04 PM
I am brand new to Cheese making. The book I'm reading tells me a good first cheese would be neufchatel. I don't like cottage cheese, so I selected neufchatel as the easiest that I would like to eat. I have 2 questions about the recipe.
1) It calls for 4 tablespoons of fresh cultured buttermilk. My question is: can I use low fat fresh cultured buttermilk? Yes but it will be wimpy not as creamy
2) the recipe says to disolve the rennet into the milk and hold at 85 degrees. Then it says the Milk should coagulate in 16 to 18 hours. Does this mean I have to keep this milk mixture sitting on my turned on stove for 16 to 18 hours? Keep my stove turned on for 16 to 18 hours? ??? Yes again to the 85 degrees. You may be able to just place covered it in your oven with the lights turned on if they are incandesent bulbs - they will keep it warm. It doesn't necessarily mean the flame or burner has to be turned on. Hope that helps.
Yep that's the American version all right!
Debi, any idea why mine went bad? not a high enough constant temp is my guess. Which is why i got the neoprene wrap to help....
French style uses a B. linens (white mold), American does not.
Quote from: padams on March 13, 2010, 03:10:14 AM
Debi, any idea why mine went bad? not a high enough constant temp is my guess. Which is why i got the neoprene wrap to help....
Other than rotten milk can you give me a hint as to what you made? Was it store bought or raw milk?
Sorry....I was trying to make Chocolate neufatchel with 1 gallon of 2% store milk, adding 1/4 tsp CaCl; 1/8 tsp MA starter; 20 drops of vegetable rennet (5 drops/qt as per directions) following John's recipe on here, and set it aside to ripen overnight. When I opened the lid the next morning, it had good coagualtion with whey around the edges. However, it smelled funny: when I started draining it, it smelled like chocolate milk vomit (any mom knows that smell). The milk was fresh; it had the oldest expiration date and I had just bought it the day before. i know the milk source is good, it is my friends' dairy. (i often just buy mik from the store to help support them) I turned it into chocolate milk with my own powder mix.
I guess that there are a lot of things that can go wrong....but if the milk is ok, would temperature be the next variable?
Quote from: DeejayDebi on March 13, 2010, 03:06:29 AM
Quote from: umgowa on March 12, 2010, 08:16:04 PM
I am brand new to Cheese making. The book I'm reading tells me a good first cheese would be neufchatel. I don't like cottage cheese, so I selected neufchatel as the easiest that I would like to eat. I have 2 questions about the recipe.
1) It calls for 4 tablespoons of fresh cultured buttermilk. My question is: can I use low fat fresh cultured buttermilk? Yes but it will be wimpy not as creamy
2) the recipe says to disolve the rennet into the milk and hold at 85 degrees. Then it says the Milk should coagulate in 16 to 18 hours. Does this mean I have to keep this milk mixture sitting on my turned on stove for 16 to 18 hours? Keep my stove turned on for 16 to 18 hours? ??? Yes again to the 85 degrees. You may be able to just place covered it in your oven with the lights turned on if they are incandesent bulbs - they will keep it warm. It doesn't necessarily mean the flame or burner has to be turned on. Hope that helps.
Yep that's the American version all right!
My question is not so much about the 85 degrees. I'm sure the recipe is correct about the 85 degrees. My question is about how I maintain the 85 degrees for 16 to 18 hours. Am I correct in the way I am interpreting this recipe that I must keep this mix of millk on by stove (or in my oven) with the burner on constantly for 16 to 18 hours??
It seems so strange to me. Please tell me if I am correct.
ungowa, I and others here make ours at room temperature as is historically done. Room temperature historically before AC and heating can be anywhere from 65 to 95 F depending on time of year and historical location, (N France, S France, Spain, Greece, Turkey etc).
American style Neuf / light cream cheese uses mesophilic starter culture (http://www.cheeseforum.org/Glossary.htm#Mesophilic_Culture) which works up to around 100 F. With warmer temperatures the reproduction of the microorganisms and creation of the lactic acid will be faster and thus the creation of this cheese quicker.
Here in Houston we have AC thus winter I make this cheese at 72 F and in summer at 78 F room temperature. 85 F will also work well, if your environment is not that warm in addition to the other ideas, another method is to pre-heat your kitchen oven a little and then switch off power and leave the oven light on. Depending on your oven and ambient temperature it should be close.
I put my covered kettle of cultured and renneted milk in a utility sink and fill it with hot tap water (about 124* F). I then put a cover over the entire sink to trap the heat and leave it for about 12 hours. The curd is still about 80* after that time, even though the room temp right now is about 65* at best.
Wrapping the kettle with a thick towel or blanket will work, too.
Thank you all. This is all very helpful. I think the guy who wrote the book I'm reading may be a little anal. At one point he calls for raising the temp. of the milk by 1 degree. How anal is that?? The idea of keeping my stove turned on for 18 hours and maintaining things at 85 degrees just did not seem right. It's comforting to know that you more experienced cheese makers are content to approximate the 85 degree target with room temperature. Can I assume then that at least for Neufchatel cheese, these temp. guidelines are targets, not carved in stone and a few degrees one way or the other will not ruin the cheese?
Neuf does not need to be heated during ripening. Just keep it at room temperature 68-72F for 12-18 hours depending on the temperature of your room. Overheating will cause the curds and whey to separate instead of making a nice cream cheese.
Really, Sailor? maybe I got it too warm and that is why mine spoiled?
Yes. I think you overheated it. Just try it at room temp. If your room is cool it might take longer. Same with cream cheese.
P -
I am still wrapping my mind around the chocolate vomit. God I remember that smell! Even if it separated it shouldn't have gone bad that fast. The only heat was from wrapping it in a nepren waist wrap?
U-
1 degree is really not that anal really it is suggested that when cooking curd you initally only raise the temperature by 2 degrees in 5 minutes.
Keeping a stove on for 12-16 hours throughout the day is the definition of insanity to me, and would very much be to my family members also. But then again-- I am merely a newbie at this game.
I REALLY do hope that their arent TOO many other cheese recipes that call for the stove to be on in such excessive amounts of time like this anymore.
And if there were-- I can't help but wonder what other type of heating alternatives could there be that could satisfy this criteria and do it well with much more efficiency (i.e. NO constant watching/monitoring) without the constant threat of the house catching fire and burning down overnight.
Quote from: DeejayDebi on March 14, 2010, 04:58:24 AM
U-
1 degree is that anal really it is suggested that when cooking curd you initally only raise the temperature by 2 degrees in 5 minutes.
Great info, Debi!
So this is the average range in which cheesemakers should heat their curds up?
Exactly the info I needed to begin looking for the heat source that I need.
Will there ever be other ranges in which the directions call for the heating temp to be a bit more fast adjusted, or in slower heating increments? Can you tell me what is the fastest heating temp. range, and what is the slowest heating temp. range for which I will EVER need in making different types of cheeses?
I need to know so I can decide which heating element would be ideal in giving me both the low and slow time, and alternatively one that could heat things up extremely quick whenever need be.
Perhaps I should invest in TWO separate heating elements. One ridiculously fast, and one slow, so at that I can alternate between the two and adjust heating temps accordingly.
Actually, Debi, I didn't have the wrap at that time, so i just put it in the cold oven. I was really shocked that it would smell like that when I opened it in the morning!
I'd say 1 degree per 5 minutes is as low as I have ever seen. Some recipes will suggest no more than 5 degrees in a 10 minute period. The main thing to remember is new born curds are as delicate as uncooked eggs start slow and work up.
Quote from: DeejayDebi on March 16, 2010, 01:10:59 AM
I'd say 1 degree per 5 minutes is as low as I have ever seen. Some recipes will suggest no more than 5 degrees in a 10 minute period. The main thing to remember is new born curds are as delicate as uncooked eggs start slow and work up.
Okay thanks. GREAT!
So what about maintaining the target temp? How does one go about doing that? I imagine through cycling the the heat on and off?
And will there ever be a time in which I may need it to heat up faster? Like for instance when trying to get the starting cold milk temp up to heat in the 80 range? Would heating it up faster than the 5 deg per 10 minute interval be okay then?
Quote from: humble_servant7 on March 16, 2010, 04:27:30 AM
Quote from: DeejayDebi on March 16, 2010, 01:10:59 AM
I'd say 1 degree per 5 minutes is as low as I have ever seen. Some recipes will suggest no more than 5 degrees in a 10 minute period. The main thing to remember is new born curds are as delicate as uncooked eggs start slow and work up.
Okay thanks. GREAT!
So what about maintaining the target temp? How does one go about doing that? I imagine through cycling the the heat on and off?
And will there ever be a time in which I may need it to heat up faster? Like for instance when trying to get the starting cold milk temp up to heat in the 80 range? Would heating it up faster than the 5 deg per 10 minute interval be okay then?
Since this thread is about Neufchatel cheese, I assume you're talking about that . . . and as Sailor Con Queso said a few posts ago "Just keep it at room temperature. . . . if the temp cools down, it will just take a little longer". This takes a lot of the anal retentive strangeness out of keeping a constant temperature on my oven for 16 hours.
Quote from: umgowa on March 16, 2010, 04:53:12 PM
Quote from: humble_servant7 on March 16, 2010, 04:27:30 AM
Quote from: DeejayDebi on March 16, 2010, 01:10:59 AM
I'd say 1 degree per 5 minutes is as low as I have ever seen. Some recipes will suggest no more than 5 degrees in a 10 minute period. The main thing to remember is new born curds are as delicate as uncooked eggs start slow and work up.
Okay thanks. GREAT!
So what about maintaining the target temp? How does one go about doing that? I imagine through cycling the the heat on and off?
And will there ever be a time in which I may need it to heat up faster? Like for instance when trying to get the starting cold milk temp up to heat in the 80 range? Would heating it up faster than the 5 deg per 10 minute interval be okay then?
Since this thread is about Neufchatel cheese, I assume you're talking about that . . . and as Sailor Con Queso said a few posts ago "Just keep it at room temperature. . . . if the temp cools down, it will just take a little longer". This takes a lot of the anal retentive strangeness out of keeping a constant temperature on my oven for 16 hours.
Right. I was just wondering if this operation was even possible.
I'll let you know. This cheese was recommended for newbies in my cheese book. The only weird part of the recipe was the 18 hour thing on the stove. Now that Sailor Con Queso has made things saner and easier, I have enough courage to start out. Since I don't like cottage cheese (the cheese project always recommended for newbies) I'm going to start with something easy that I might actually like . . . and according to my book it's Neufchatel. I think I can manage 18 hours at room temperature. I'll let you know.
As a frequent bread maker, I know there are places (or places that can easily be made) in my house that are a little warmer than the rest. Consider these:
1.) Turn your oven on for about 30 seconds, then turn it off. It will be warmer in there. Additionally, if you leave the light on, it will stay cozy.
2.) Higher places (a top shelf) in your house are warmer than lower places. Interior areas are warmer than exterior areas.
3.) I have a small lamp with an incandescent bulb - I put this lamp in an interior closet in my utility room, and my bread (or curds) on an upper shelf in the closet. This area is usually about 80F.
My recipe for neufchatel says room temperature of at least 72F for 12-18 hours. So if you just find a slightly warmer place, I don't think you need to keep heating it up further. Really, I think it is more important not to mess with the curds during this time than it is to try to keep kwarming them up.
Fuzzir has a good point. I found the only place in my house that is close to 72 degrees all the time in the winter is on top of my refrigerator near the back. Those tings give off pretty good heat up against the wall.