CheeseForum.org » Forum

Hello all!
I am looking for any input, comments and creative ideas for this one; anything goes.

Background: After a chain of discouraging disasters I had to take a break from semi soft cheese-making. I finally decided to go at it again. This time though I would offset the risk of new untested recipes by only doing small batches: Less milk and cultures waste and shorter aging - at least until I am confident about a recipe. In this spirit, I have embarked on an experimental Tomme which is a cross between several Tomme recipes. It's a 1Lb 5"x2.5" wheel so I am calling it simply "Petit-Tomme"!

The idea: Softer Tomme, ages in 6-8 weeks; Added Geo and PLA for development of surface, rind, color and aroma. I demand the smell of grass and pretty colors. Can you blame me?

The Process used:

• Warmed 1 gallon milk at 89F (Used Skytop brand grass-fed organic non-homogenized, very fresh)
• Added:
  
  
  • For ripening: 1/8 tsp Flora Danica (sorry, out of normal mesosphilic) + 1/8 tsp MD 89. (MD 89 is a mesophilic that isn't strong enough to ripen milk on its own but added to other meso it adds buttery flavor and small eye formation)
  • For Mold/Surface formation: 1/8 tsp Geo 17 Geotrichum Candidum for mold formation
  • For Aroma: 1/16 tsp PLA (Thanks Francois for introducing me to this cool culture! PLA develops aroma and surface flora with B.Linens Geo and a couple of other cultures)
• Ripened for 45 min. at 90 F (Sorry, couldn't take pH reading)
• Added:
  
  
  • 1/4 tsp Calcium Chloride, pre-diluted in 1/4 cup filtered water
    
  • 1/4 tsp liquid rennet, pre-diluted in 1/4 cup filtered water. (Is that enough? See below)
• Waited 3.5x flocculation which was 45 min but no clean break. Waited 1 hour and looks the same. Waited 15 more minutes and still the same. Temp dropped to 85 by now. Decided to cut curd in spite of soft messy break. (Did I use too little rennet? Could this relate to this milk being super-fat non-homogenized and most of the butterfat separated and floated?)
• Cut curd into 3/8 inch cubes, let rest 5 min
• Washed curd to 104F over 40 min. (Tried 100F in 30 min; undershot, then overshot errr..). Got variable curd sizes ranging from grain to small cubes. Average size is kidney bean
• Drained in cheesecloth-lined colander for a few minutes. Some curd matting showing
• Washed a 5" round mold with warm whey, moved the loaded cheesecloth to it
• Pressed at 5Lbs, turned at 15 min, pressed at 10lbs for 45 min. Looked like too much (Don't want to end up with a hard cheese) so turned it again and kept at 5Lb for the next 13 hours
• Brined the (534 Gram / 18Oz.) wheel in 20% saturated brine (1 cup salt, 4.5 cups filtered water, ½ tsp white vinegar, 1/4 tsp CalCl) 4 hours per side
• Drained on rack and moved to wooden board where it is now drying. (Covered partially with glass bowl to slow drying time and prevent the rind from cracking)

Status: The cheese is now drying and I will begin to develop the rind next week.

Questions: - Here's where I need your help, creativity and experience!

• Process: Do you think this is a good process? How should I better it?
• Aging: How do you think I should age it? (temp/humidity/time)
• Rinding: Should I let it grow wild? (remember I used Geo and PLA, so I anticipate that this will take over, it won't be totally out of control wildness, and I right?). Do you think it would be better to salt-rub it? Oil Rub? (When?) Wash it in brine? Or perhaps, mix PLA in water for a very fitting bacterial brine?

Thanks!

Process:

- Not sure what happened with the rennet. Higher butterfat requires a top stir and a little bit more rennet.
- Floc is fine, curd size is fine
- Variable curd size, even when it mats, can lead to whey pockets and offtastes and paste defects. Not a huge deal for a smaller size cheese, but if at all possible, try to cut the curd evenly.
- Tommes, in classic tradition are low temp cheeses, as you already noted. So try to keep under 100F, and stir, else it will mat
- Prepressing helps with tommes. At least settle under the warm whey. Although you warmed the mold, which helps.
- Great job on keeping the weight low. 5 lbs is about right because it's a small cheese.
- Keep an eye on ambient room temps. A tomme is tricky because although you drain at high pH around 6.3, the curd must acidify more on its own, or the cheese will be bland, especially when eaten young. The rind molds also need to eat lactic acid in the cheese as they develop and grow. So your 13 hours in press should be in a warm room. Have to hit that 5.4 pH.
- 8 hours total brine for an 18 ounce cheese at 20% brine is too long for my tastes. I like a slightly more balanced and earthy tomme


Aging

- Classic aging, 90-92% humidity, straight 52-55F. Your bowl method may be preventing the rind from drying out a little. This is rather crucial. If it does not, especially with Geo, there's a higher chance of slip skin. IMHO Geo with PLA is overkill. I'd add maybe micrococci, or Kluyvermyces, depends what I was trying to achieve.

Rind
- I would not let the mold grow wild. That is way too much proteolytic activity. Need to balance slow paste development with rind development. But, on the other hand, with such a thin disk, it's almost like you're making a quasi-brie creation, where the paste develops quickly. Still, unchecked is too much too fast. Even on a blue, which has all sorts of crazy molds as it ages, you scrape off periodically to balance the quantity of proteolytic enzymes that are eating the cheese with the speed of paste development (paste develops over weeks/months from the outside in, in a cheese like this, and rather slowly, unlike salt equilibrium, which is achieved faster after brining) Geo and PLA are complex smear flora, they will compete with each other and use each other's byproducts, which is cool, but will be too much if unchecked. Either scrape off periodically, or wash. I would wash, like I posted in my Tomme thread. I love that washed rind like you get on a gruyere or a tomme. The key is to let the molds flavor it, and die off, then wait for the flavors to permeate the cheese, and also use the dead mold as a protectant against moisture loss and additional molds.
- IMHO salt rub is not right for a tomme.
- Oil rub isn't really good in combination with the rest of your make. Need to work with the mold mix, not kill it.
- You shouldn't need to add more culture to a brine mix. Your brine will be full of the bacteria once you start washing if you added it to the milk.

Hope that helps. I like your idea of a hybrid tomme style. Curious to see how it turns out for you and what you'll think.

Thanks Linuxboy! Always super helpful.
You made me feel a lot better about this experiment already!.
- The 13 hour light press was at a stable 75F room. I think it's good.
- PLA I use (Choozit brand) contains Geo in it too by the way.
- What are Micrococci and Kluyvermyces? Do tell! Never seen those before.
Brining - I am basing it on 4hr per side per lb. I figured it's easier to deal with over-salted cheese than undersalted one...

My bowl method explained: When the room is very dry (falls below 40%RH) I elevate a bowl so it stands a couple of inches higher than the cheese. I don't block the cheese and there is plenty of air but it does slow the flow of air so the cheese can take its 2-3 days to dry instead of drying in 4-5 hours which will crack the rind and possibly not allow the acidity and enzymes to develop. The RH under the bowl is around 55%-65%

RE aging - 55F in a humid container I suppose, how long would you say? 6-8 weeks OK?

As for the rind - OK, no oil, no salt. I didn't think of leaving it unchecked, just of growing natural mold and then rubbing and brushing it on a regular basis. I was thinking of putting a bit of PLA + water in a spray bottle (so that I keep it sealed and can use it for a week or two) and then spray a thin layer on the cheese, leave it for a few minutes and wipe it off every couple of days for the first 2-3 weeks. Should I mix salt and CalCl into it to make it into a brine with bacteria? Or do you suggest to 86 the bacteria altogether and just do brine? If so, how saturated should it be? 18% OK?

I love these collaborative cheese effort. Let's make a user-generated open-source cheese.

Your make details seem like they should produce a great cheese. :).

Kluyveromyces and Debaryomyces, along with Saccharomyces, Geo, and in some naturally occurring rinds Pichia (similar to Saccharomyces) are all yeasts. They all contribute to making various byproducts that both add flavor and feed other bacteria and yeasts. Depending on what b linens eats, for example, the same strain may turn very orange, or only slightly orange. They're different with regard to having yeast-like or mold like appearance qualities, metabolyc pathways, etc.

Micrococcus and pediococcus are naturally occurring in milk, and some strains produce favorable enzymes and lipases that improve flavor. I think a few places sell them as specialty adjuncts. I'm not such a big fan of them as the yeasts because they're not so consistent, but they can help produce a cool, gray rind. I prefer a blend like PLA or Mycodore and Mycoderm. Makes for a lovely rustic rind.

Your bowl method sounds great now that I understand it. First day or two, RH should be 70-80%. You want those molds to sink their hyphae in and make a home.

6-8 weeks are fine for a tomme this thin. 4 weeks earliest.

I'm not so sure you need to inoculate the brine if you already added it to the milk. But you could with a bit, and then wash and reuse the brine. My thought is because you're reusing the brine and putting the rag or brush in the brine and to the rind and back and forth, the bacteria will transfer over pretty quickly. Don't think it could hurt, though. In a few days, the yeasts and bacteria will be everywhere, anyway. I wouldn't spray. Use a rag and wipe.

For the wash, you don't need CaCl2. It's just a wash, not a brine you soak the cheese in. 18% is too much, you'll suffocate most things except the b linens. Geo, for example, doesn't do so well beyond 4-5%. b linens brine is usually 10%. The wash is for rind development and mold control. I use different salt % depending on how the cheese is doing. In this case, I would just leave it and see what the rind does first.

Could you please post a rind update pic? The first two weeks are critical for later rind formation; curious about how it's going.

It's like you read my mind! I was just about to do that!

Nothing much yet. Initial surface flora on both top/bottom centers, growing towards the lip. These areas also feel a bit moist/sticky  so I am opening the cover more to reduce humidity (was rather dry when I put it in the aging container originally).

Do you think it's time to brine, or should I wait a few more days? Is it OK in an aging container partially covered at 55F?

That just looks like a geo bloom; I don't see anything else. I think the salt may be killing off other things... does it have a b linens stink at all?

It does have some funky (not bad) smell reminiscent of Crottin De Chavignol. There is definately some activity on it that is not the normal smell early semi-soft cheese with undeveloped rind. I was under the impression that B.Linens have higher tolerance to salt than Geo, so if the Geo grows, shouldn't the B.Linens be alive too? Do you think they are competing with each other now? Pehraps I should wait a few more days and if all I see is white than I should wash it with PLA-diluted 10% salt water as we previously discussed?

Another thought; The PLA culture contains B.Linens as well as Geo (and a couple of other things). It is possible that it isn't as powerful as standalone B.Linen so it takes a bit of time to catch up on growth while the Geo is having a full-on party: After all, I have introduced Geo into the milk once on its own in full dose and then again by adding PLA to the milk.

You are right about the b linens. It needs a neutralized surface. So if it is alive, it will likely start as a secondary bloom in several days. A crottin smell is mostly geo. They do compete, but they also complement. If you want to slow down the geo, lower humidity to mid 80s. I think waiting is a good idea. A complex rind like this changes and takes time.

Here's my latest tomme from 3/13. Made from 2 gal raw jersey milk and 1 gal frozen sheep milk. Yield was 2.7 lbs.
I washed it today, had a little bit of blue mold and a spot of cat hair, and a nice bloom of geo. No sign of B. linens yet, which I added to the milk.
Thanks for the info in this thread; I really like this cheese.

Linuxboy - Thanks! So when should I start washing? I usually begin a week through it.
Pam - looks great! Interesting that you have all that yellowness on the top but not the side.  Our cheeses are 5 days apart.  I suppose I will wait for the wash after all.  Mine is much smaller of course so aging should be faster.

I have never thought of freezing good milk for later cheesin' but I suppose as long as you got some of the fresh raw milk in it you are good... I am using pasteurized milk on this one but non-homogenized of very good quality and organic grass feed. Just signed up for a local raw co-op and can't wait. Girlfriend is afraid of Listeria and I frankly don't know how to guarantee health on it; I need to read up.

I started washing on day 7, air dried for 24 hours after removing from 9 hours in brine. I wash (rub by hand) with 1/2 cup water:1t salt, then pat dry with a paper towel, allow to air dry a bit and put it back into ageing box in my cold room.
I would ask your milk supplier about their process, I'm sure they will be happy to show you their facility and cleanliness standards. I buy cow/goat/sheep milk locally from 5-6 different sources and have never pasteurized any milk for cheese making or drinking.
I think sheep's milk is the only one that freezes successfully due to high solids.

Good progress so far. I have been washing with lightly salted water with PLA for a week. The color is becoming yellower and the white geo is everywhere. It's not orange, but as Francois explained once to me - not all B.Linens strains are orange. This is the same one you use on Crottin which is an anything-but-yellow cheese. It looks so good that I decided to do a similar cheese tonight with Goat's milk. The only difference here is that I am going to double the PLA and eliminate the geo inoculation; the PLA has enough geo in it. 

There are two ways this cheese can go.  If I am trying to do a smear cheese, i.e. soft and gooey with little or no white mould on it, I dunk and wash the cheese frequently in the first few days to keep the pH on the surface down and moisture up.  If you do this, the b. linens will take off and the white mould will not grow for quite some time (until the surface pH has increased and water activity is correct for it).

The other way you can cure this cheese is to let the white grow like crazy with less washing.  The b. linens will grow at a slower pace in the rind below it.  Over a span of weeks and months as the white dies the rind beneath is revelaed which has a good crop of b.linens in it.  The cheese will not have the abrupt stinkiness of the b. linens though.

Thanks! So now that I am doing the second one in goats milk (in the press right now) perhaps I should try one of these methods!
This time around I used twice the PLA but no Geo (PLA has Geo in it, from the growth on the first cheese I figured it was more than plenty).

So do you dunk it for the first few days and then just leave it alone? (occasional cleaning, turning and box wiping, I assume). What do you dunk it in exactly and how long?

Silly me, I am flying to France in one week and I didn't think of this whole cheese rinding situation. I won't be here between days 7 and 15 of this cheese's life to take care of it - so maybe your "leave it alone" method would work for me.

What's the temp/RH you recommend? And is there any preference between using 18% or 23% brine to better help one favorite bacteria grow faster than another?

Day 20 update... this is about half way through this cheese which I plan to age 45 days. Slight orangy yellow is beginning to show and the smell is much more pronounced and mature, It's like an aged cheddar with the horse-dunginess of Crottin Chavingol...
I did follow LinuxBoy's advice to reduce humidity (removed the cover partially) to inhibit the speed of Geo growth and it worked, but it gave me the side effect of tiny cracks on the rind which are usually a sign that it's drying too quickly (correct me if I am wrong). Guess I have to find the balance. I will raise humidity based on Francois advice that the Geo strain will eventually die and the B.Linen will survive. I have been smearing and wiping it once a day with slightly-salted PLA water which I take out of the fridge to room temp first. - photos below. (behind it is the new Goat's version which is drying now from brine). Comments?

To moderate the drying you may cover the cheese with a moist handkerchief/cloth.

I would. This cheese was done fairly moist and simply putting the cover on the aging box will give me droplets on the lid. I partially removed the lid to help the B.Linen and arrest the Geo slightly. It worked but gave me cracks so I put it back on... According to Francois the Geo will eventually just die of and the B.Linen will take over anyway so no need to rash this balance of forces. I will just wait...

Looks good to me, irather, can't wait to hear about your adventures in Paris! Are you taking your cheese with you?

I know, it's a bit ridiculous to bring cheese to France but I am meeting my parents there (they lived there 6 years so they know their way around). I think it's also time to break the news on this forum that one of my original cheeses will be produced on a test run and sale by a goats' cheesemaker in Bordeaux later this year. I am working on teaching him my technique now and perfecting it together. Like I said, ridiculous!!
I love these community-generated cheeses we do here. One person experiment for the whole group. I will post more of these in the future.

Good for you! Congratulations!
What kind of cheese type is it? How long did it take you to develop it?
Best of luck with it!
Pam

I was thinking of opening a thread for it. It's a real hybrid; Camembert technique, Goat's milk, Lipase which gives it crazy italian sharpness and ash, in a tiny 3"x1.5" wheel. I have been developing it since Decemner with overlapping batches. A long way for a guy who couldn't get a brie right just a few months ago... It takes 21 days to age. The idea is to get beautiful delicious rind and ash streak, lactic gooeyness right under the skin and texture that becomes flaky like a crottin towards the center. The flavor is sharp. We are working on this together at this point and currently focusing on techniques that give it a longer ripe period before it goes "affine" and downhill - turns into liquidy ammonia (for example we make it drier and smaller curd in the start and mature it a few more days, then we brine it heavy and it kills most of the geo). I am just having fun; not quitting my day job quite yet :)
Here's a photo of a batch from 2 month ago. We since have thinned out the rind and changed the shape of the ash streak inside to an arc which I haven't seen on other cheeses - perhaps it would give it some trademark look?

Quote from: iratherfly on April 06, 2010, 08:10:35 AM
Thanks! So now that I am doing the second one in goats milk (in the press right now) perhaps I should try one of these methods!
This time around I used twice the PLA but no Geo (PLA has Geo in it, from the growth on the first cheese I figured it was more than plenty).

So do you dunk it for the first few days and then just leave it alone? (occasional cleaning, turning and box wiping, I assume). What do you dunk it in exactly and how long?
I submerge the cheeses for a few seconds then rub the soaked surface by hand for a few seconds and make sure the cheese is dripping wet
Silly me, I am flying to France in one week and I didn't think of this whole cheese rinding situation. I won't be here between days 7 and 15 of this cheese's life to take care of it - so maybe your "leave it alone" method would work for me.

What's the temp/RH you recommend? And is there any preference between using 18% or 23% brine to better help one favorite bacteria grow faster than another?
55 and as wet as you can get it will get your b.linens going well.  I normally use saturated brine for everything but washes.  I don't think they have much of an effect (18 vs 23) on small cheeses really.

Your cheese looks gorgeous. Let me know if I can be part of a focus group! ;D

Francois - THANKS!!! Always helpful. Will follow through.

Pam - Sure thing... I was going to see about sending it to people here. Where are you located?

I apologize in advance if I am unable to answer quickly in the coming week. Going out of town for 2 days and then a day back, then a week in Paris, stuffing myself with cheese.

Whoa! Sending it out to forum members? With announcements like that you're gonna be doing a lot of mailing!

BTW I'll take 2... ;)

Well... it's been a long time people! Yes, I was suppose to go back 2 weeks ago but because of that volcano in Iceland my flight was canceled and I got delayed in Paris for another week. Poor me. I did worry about these cheeses in my cave n NYC growing wild and when I came back in Saturday I was pleasantly surprised to find that the new goat's version was a bit wild but the B.Linen came out without any washing at all (wow, inoculating it into the milk really worked!). I brushed it with bacterial rind and it looks great.

The cows' version with which I started this thread last month was ready to open. It smelled lovely. The B.Linen was more yellow than orange and it wasn't too stinky, yet slightly grassy. It came out a bit drier than I anticipated and more flaky than desired (but now I know that this relates to the inoculation time, I will make this go away on the next batch). It is firm with small random eyes (likely do to the MD89) and thin yellow rind (the body is slightly harder/darker under the rind)

The taste is gorgeous; A mild aroma of B.Linen and gaminess to go with it. It's nutty with a slight flat sourness (typical for young cheese) and it then finishes in your mouth with a surprise of butterness (I think this is a Flora Danica). It also passed the melt test with flying colors.  I think that this same cheese with slightly shorter flocculation time would be perfect! Here are the photos:

Looks delicious, IRF, how did your cheese do in the competition?

Thanks Brie! This wasn't in any competition. It waited for me in NY while I was in France. The other cheese isn't in a competition either - My French cheesemaker friends have a working cheese farm in Bordeaux with certified facilities and 400 goats. They want to test-produce the other cheese.

And now... I am gearing up to the next step of improving this. While I have the goats' version of this aging with 2 more weeks to go, I just finished another cows' batch where I am attempting to use some Roblechon techniques to reach the same flavor and aroma profile but with much softer and moister texture:

• Heated milk to 85F (Instead of 88-89)
• Mesophilic and PLA inoculated only 15 minutes before Cal-Cl/rennet
• Curd clean break and cut at only 35 minutes
• Used whisk to cut the curd to pea-size instead of larger cubes with curd knife
• Cooked curd to 98F for 30 Min, stirring and resting occasionally (was suppose to be 95F in 30 min but I way overshot it to 98F in 10 min. Grrr...)
• Ladeled curd into the mold without cheesecloth, without hot whey wash and not under the whey's weight. It matted very well and I flipped it with no pressure 4 times in the next 2.5 hours
• Pressed at 5Lbs for 12 hours and then brined at 18% for 8 hours.
• Reipening in a container at 60F and 85-90% RH without drying it for 2-3 days outside

Does anyone here have an opinion about my new Roblechon hybrid concept? (I'll post photos if there is something interesting to see)

You cheese looks great! Very attractive. Can't help you with the Reblochon mods I haven't tried this yet but I plan to soon.

This should be interesting, IRF, what are you trying to achieve? Love to see the pics as this cheese ages. No geo or  b. linens? Are you planning on any smear with these in aging--I have read that both tommes and Reblochons have these added.  Have several Reblochons aging right now, so can't comment on the outcome as of yet--perhaps in a few weeks. Keep us posted!

Thanks Debi and Brie!
I am trying to achieve a pastier inside. Not flaky or fragile but more moist and soft; like a Roblechon, Morbier, Taleggio.
The PLA culture I'm using already contains both Geo and B.Linen in it (+ 2 other stinky and fun cultures). This B.Linen strain is more yellow than orange. Tomme is such a liberal and generic definition of cheese, that you can freely do whatever rind or paste you want as long as you keep it round, with rind and relatively small.

I am going to do a bacterial rind wash every couple of days - just like I did with this petit-tomme and the new goats' petit-tomme (4 fl oz. water + 1 tsp kosher salt + a pinch of PLA. Activated at room temp for 12 hours before first use). The goat's tomme however proved to me that the B. Linen and Geo can certainly come out on its own as it did in the week I was stuck out of the country. It was totally covered before I even washed it once! (not very even or thick though)

I will keep you posted with photos. The goat's version should be ready in about 10 days or so. When did you make your Roblechons? Are you washing them yet?

I have two sets of Relochons aging right now. The first I added a touch of P. Candidum in the milk and it is blossoming all over with white mold. I did wash daily with salt solution and b. linens; but that white rind keeps blooming. The second, I did not add the p.candidum (geo added to both sets), and am washing daily with same salt solution and b.linens--taught to add the p.candidum as a spray during the the last few weeks of affinage. Will update on progress.

I know about the spray but never tried it. It always seem like a method taken from mass production... I still inoculate it in the milk. Are you using an atomizer?
P.Candidum is indeed stubborn, and other molds like Geo would be killed by the amount of salt you need to rub/brine in order to kill it, so just keep it on. Who knows what interesting character it could give your Roblechons? Maybe you can give it your own name, Roblancon or something :) (get it? get it?)
You say "in the last few weeks of affinage" - how long are you aging them? Itsn't Roblechon affinage only 28 to 35 days?

By the way, I am going to post another experiment later this week. I just got the idea (an the tiny molds) to do a cow's cheese inspired by Rocamadour or Cabecou. Any creative ideas on that one?

So, you are innoculating the milk with p.cand and geo? That's what I did with my first. Yes, short ripening time, I suppose I should taste mine within the next week and will report back. Did you wash yours with b. linens or add to milk as well?

Sorry, I wasn't around for a few days. The Tommes - I only inoculate with PLA now. No P.Candicum. The PLA contains a strain of B.Linen and a strain of Geo. I then wash it with a PLA wash and rub salt to help it out. Today the cheese have finally showed the first signs of Geo. No B.Linen signs as of yet.
As for the Camemberts - YES, I do inoculate the P.Candidum and Geo right into the milk at the same time I put the Meso in. My tiny micro Camemberts have just shown their first PC bloom today. They are 4 days old. By tomorrow they will be all white. I use Geo 17 and PC neige which makes it grow super fast. I have never done the spray thing. Are you using an atomizer to spray? Or just a spray bottle?

OK... here it is. #2 of the 3 experimental Petit Tomme was done.
This one was almost the same as the successful first one, only it was a Goats' milk - hence we'll call it "Petit Tomme de Chèvre"

At 5 weeks (The first two without treatment or turning; I was in Europe and got stuck there for 10 extra days due to the volcano) the aroma came together nicely, the rind turned orangy-yellow (oh, that funky PLA culture). It was drying faster than I wanted because I reduced humidity to help the B.Linens and inhibit the Geo, so it was time to try it.

Looked - great. Smelled - Fantastic. Flavor - Nice and as expected though though disturbed by the sourness of cheese that is too young. Texture - WAY OFF; Chalky, flaky, brittle, dry. Melting test - miserable results.  :-\  Where did I go wrong? Ideas?

P.S
I was adviced by some of you that a shorter milk ripening prior to adding the rennet will eliminate the flakiness issue. I made this cheese before I knew about it so it was long inoculation. I am now trying a short inoculation 3rd version of this recipe. This one with techniques borrowed from Morbier methods to make a soft paste. Will be ready in 10 days.

Flaky/chalky = too high draining pH. Meaning too long ripening, too much culture, too long of a cook, or temp too high leading to fast acid production. Or some combination of the above. Tommes are acidified after curd fusion and drained with high pH.

I hope I didn't do ALL of these things wrong but only one...
I think I will start with shortening the ripening period and possibly cut the meso inhalf because I am already suppelmenting it with MD89. Do you think that inoculating yeast (such as KL 71) would help? It is supposed to raise the pH level (and also help with the rind buildup when smearing).

I'm sure you didn't do them all but sometimes it's best to adjust one thing at a time till you figure out what it is so you don't compound the problem. Looks wonderful! Love the mold patterns!

Thanks Debi, the mold patterns are from pressing lightly in the mold under whey without cheesecloth. They work great to trap the bacterial smear to it starts building up rind later.

My log shows that I used 1/8 tsp FL-DN + 1/8 tsp MD 89 for ripening. I know these are two mesophilics but the MD89 on its own is not strong enough to ripen milk (I use it bot buttery flavor small eyes). Still, together it might have been too strong. The other thing is, I have ripened it at 86F for 55 min. I suspect this was the issue. I probably shouldn't have ripen it longer than 15-30 minutes. This is a nasty old habit I bring from the world of Camemberts...

My current experiment (#3) is a couple of weeks away from making it and it is far softer. Ripened only 15  minutes and pressed lightly.

Linuxboy, you have been of great help to me on another Tomme thread, but now I am terribly confused ... above you mention:

QuoteFlaky/chalky = too high draining pH. Meaning too long ripening, too much culture, too long of a cook, or temp too high leading to fast acid productio

Shouldn't that be "Flaky/chalky = too high acidity at draining = PH too low" ?

BTW, iratherfly, beautiful cheeses! I wish I had such rinds!

P.S. I am still out of town and can't check on my own cheeses, but I am happy to be in touch in spirit via this forum  ;)

I'm sorry, was one of those running out the door moments. You're absolutely right. Too low draining pH, too high draining acidity. My thoughts went faster than my brain. Chalkiness tends to happens when you fuse the curds that have too much acid already built up. It's also more of an issue with goat milk, especially when it has been overhandled.