I have my new tome press and am now ready for my very first attempt at cheese-making. I am a little nervous. I will be attempting to make Gouda cheese. My question relates to the starter culture. I know the starter culture is important in imparting the ultimate flavor to the cheese . . should I keep it simple and use buttermilk for my starter culture? Or should I go to a cheese making store nearby and buy some professional grade mesophilic starter culture? Will I be able to notice any difference? Any guidance here would be greatly appreciated. :-\
great thread. i want to see the replies to this one also.
Depends on what you are trying to accomplish. Lots of people use buttermilk and yogurt for starter cultures. However, the bacteria types and proportions are unknown and inconsistent. With commercial cultures, you know exactly what you are getting and can mix various types to acheive different results.
I have used Flora Danica and normal mesophilic (lactis and cremoris) but liked the flora danica more. Mainly because additional s. lactis biovar diacetylactis and m.s. cremoris gives a buttery flavour. Flora Danica is gas poducing and makes little holes to.
It comes down to what you like actually. You are an artisan cheesemaker and have the option to use whatever you like/works. Try one with buttermilk, another with normal meso, another one with flora danica and make your informed decision.
Usually in life things that are easy, convenient and inexpensive usually always generate worse results than things that are difficult, inconvenient, and expensive. I was just wondering if this starter culture aspect of cheese-making followed this rule or not. Just going out and buying buttermilk from the supermarket is so much easier than a) learning how to even pronounce the word "Mesophilic". b) finding out where to buy the right kind of professional mesophilic starter culture c) getting in my car and finding the location of the place that sells it and/or d) going through the stress of buying it on the internet and e) shelling out the additional $$ for something that has to cost more than buttermilk. Are you telling me that despite this gross imbalance, there is still an equivalency here? It depends on personal taste? The buttermilk route has just as much chance of producing wonderful Gouda (like the kind we buy in the store) as the difficult professional mesophilic additive route?
Since you have found this website and are a member (not a lurker), you must have a higher than average interest in cheeses.
You know the easiest way to get Gouda is to head on down to the super market, but that's not why you are on this site, is it?
I have to say that buying cultures from a Website and getting it a few days later in my mailbox is about as easy as it gets. I like the folks at New England Cheese Making Supply Company (www.cheesemaking.com (http://www.cheesemaking.com)); if you prefer to talk to someone, they do that too.
I goofed around with making cheese at home (on the farm) in the mid-seventies, long before the internet and without any access to the quality ingredients now available to home cheese makers; my results were iffy at best and I soon lost interest.
Cost of materials for this hobby is quite a bit lower than homebrew beer, just as a example from my personal experience.
I say: Buy the best ingredients your budget will afford. "Garbage IN... Garbage OUT"
It's a hobby, enjoy it by immersing yourself in it wholeheartedly. IMHO
Quote from: HOPOIL on March 31, 2010, 01:17:43 PM
Since you have found this website and are a member (not a lurker), you must have a higher than average interest in cheeses.
You know the easiest way to get Gouda is to head on down to the super market, but that's not why you are on this site, is it?
I have to say that buying cultures from a Website and getting it a few days later in my mailbox is about as easy as it gets. I like the folks at New England Cheese Making Supply Company (www.cheesemaking.com (http://www.cheesemaking.com)); if you prefer to talk to someone, they do that too.
I goofed around with making cheese at home (on the farm) in the mid-seventies, long before the internet and without any access to the quality ingredients now available to home cheese makers; my results were iffy at best and I soon lost interest.
Cost of materials for this hobby is quite a bit lower than homebrew beer, just as a example from my personal experience.
I say: Buy the best ingredients your budget will afford. "Garbage IN... Garbage OUT"
It's a hobby, enjoy it by immersing yourself in it wholeheartedly. IMHO
I agree with everything you just said. And I am happy to buy the starter culture from a web site if it will lead to a better result than the buttermilk. That's exactly what I'm trying to find out. I would like someone to tell me . . . will it lead to a better result? From some of my reading, it sounds as though there's an equivalency between the two approaches. But implicit in your words is the fact that in your opinion the professionally prepared (web site) approach it will lead to better results than the buttermilk. Am I correct in this?
Since I only have a few months of modern cheesemaking experience to draw from, take this for what its worth.
Both buttermilk and a packet of culture (Choosit is a brand name) will change the culture of the milk. Toss in some rennet, cook, press, & wait some time and you have cheese.
To me, the buttermilk is an 'unknown' whereas the Choosit is a 'known'. (or a 'variable' versus a 'constant')
As hobby-ists, we are experimenting in the kitchen anyway. There are already plenty of variables in the equation so how will you know why one batch tastes different from another batch?
I doubt you would be able to reliably duplicate a cheese, time after time, using buttermilk. I guess it depends on how scientific you want to get.
Hopoil,
I understand you do not have any experience making cheese with buttermilk. Saying not to be able to duplicate a cheese made with buttermilk, wouldn't be reliable. Same variants will play a role except the culture when using commercial culture, so you can not be sure to exactly duplicate a cheese. IMHO, even if the same type of cheese turns out different from batch to batch, it will be edible, and that's a result of being hobbyist and not commercial cheese makers.
Umgowa,
Just to encourage you, I make cheese for several years using buttermilk and yogurt only. I teach cheese making based on the same way I was taught. Cheeses are affected by milk type and every step during the procedure of making as well as by rind treatment and ageing.
You should use the most simple type and check on the label which kind of bacteria does it have.
Believe me, I make wanderfull cheeses without commercial cultures. We are home cheese makers, aren't we. I'll never try to imitate the industry, as the industry adapted the cheese making from the home cheese makers.
Make cheese and enjoy the hobby!
Was browsing culture related topics and I feel I need to comment to alex's post,
Making cheese as a hobbiest is not just creating an edible cheese but also having the abillity to creat superb cheese superier to commerical products.
Buttermilk is certainly not "unknow",its exact composition in terms of bacteria and ratios between different bacterias may be unknow but you may look at it exacly as any other blend cultures.
This blend may even be superier for some cheeses then some "known" DVI cultures,
Only way is to expiriment and decide if this culture satisfies you as much as other cultures,superier or inferior.
Hi,
I did this search recently on what cultures are in buttermilk, and found the following statement:
"Cultured Buttermilk--which is formed during the process of making cultured butter. Cultured butter is regular butter with a bacteria culture (Lactococcus lactis subsp. lactis; Lactococcus lactis subsp. cremoris; Lactococcus lactis subsp. lactis biovar. diacetylactis; Leuconostoc mesenteroides subsp. cremoris (Leuc. citrovorum) added to it to give it taste."
(on the page http://www.midvalleyvu.com/Buttermilk.html (http://www.midvalleyvu.com/Buttermilk.html) )
Now, looking up cheese cultures I found this:
•Flora Danica-Mesophilic Starter (50 and 200 doses)
(freeze-dried direct set/DVI-Direct Vat Innoculation)
(LL) Lactococcus lactis subsp. lactis
(LLC) Lactococcus lactis subsp. cremoris
(LLD) Lactococcus lactis subsp. lactis biovar diacetylactis
(LMC) Leuconostoc mesenteroides subsp. cremoris
(found at this page http://thecheesemaker.com/cultures.htm (http://thecheesemaker.com/cultures.htm) )
And if you compare the 4 cultures, they are the same. Buttermilk, at least according to midvalleyvu, contains Flora Danica. Well, the proportions may be different, which would affect the flavour, etc, but I would suspect on the whole they will be similar. I know when I just made a cheese using buttermilk for the first time, it smelled tangier than the flora danica makes. HOwever, it could be that my buttermilk starter went a bit over the top (it started to separate into curds and whey) while my FD culture didn't do that.
So, it seems to me that it is likely that any cheese that is "best made" with Flora Danica can probably be made just as well with buttermilk.
Now, I've written to the dairy which makes the buttermilk I'm using to see if they use the same cultures. But no reply as of yet.
- Jeff
QuoteAnd if you compare the 4 cultures, they are the same.
IIRC, they are not the same. They are similar. When dealing with LD type culture, like the ones you would use for buttermilk, sour cream, chevre frais, and gouda, the strains make all the difference, as does the ratio of the components. This is important because sometimes, you will get specific defined strains, sometimes you will get multiple undefined strains, depending on the culture. FD, for example is multiple undefined strains mixed in a general ratio(IIRC, 35/35 LL and LC, 15-20% LD, 10-15% LM).
QuoteButtermilk, at least according to midvalleyvu, contains Flora Danica.
Possibly, but my guess is that it's another culture. FD is a tad too slow on acid production for buttermilk. Typically, cheaper bulk cultures are used. FD is more of a fresh cheese culture. It's be really close in taste, though.
Hi linuxboy,
I've lined up the two lists here because I'm a bit confused when you say they are not the same? The only difference I can see appears to be in how the last one is listed, with the (Leuc. citrovorum) at the end of the buttermilk one, but I took the brackets to indicate it was some additional (non-important) information. Otherwise, I can't see any other difference in the list of the cultures? Or, are you saying that these names are not specific enough and there are different strains of each of these as well? (I accept that the proportions could be quite different, so the idea of equivalence would be taking things too far).
I'm pleased to hear that they are probably not the same because I thought things smelled a bit more acidic when I used buttermilk as the starter. Also, your comments about FD being too slow in the acid build up seem to back up my "sniff test" reults.
Anyway, so are the culture lists like this not unique identifiers? (again, not talking about the proportional mixture, just the contents for now). Meaning, if I see two companies selling Lactococcus lactis subsp. lactis biovar. diacetylactis, could they be selling different strains, which therefore could have different properties and results? Or do you mean it is highly unlikely they use the same proportional mix, although the listed strains are the same (with the possible exception of the last one)? Or, are you pointing out that I've overlooked the difference in the last listed culture (which are not listed identically)?
There are just so many ways I can be wrong! :)
Buttermilk list vs Flora Danica
Lactococcus lactis subsp. lactis vs (LL) Lactococcus lactis subsp. lactis
Lactococcus lactis subsp. cremoris vs (LLC) Lactococcus lactis subsp. cremoris
Lactococcus lactis subsp. lactis biovar. diacetylactis vs (LLD) Lactococcus lactis subsp. lactis biovar diacetylactis
Leuconostoc mesenteroides subsp. cremoris (Leuc. citrovorum) vs (LMC) Leuconostoc mesenteroides subsp. cremoris
- Jeff
Quotewhen you say they are not the same?
Identical genus and species does not equal identical strains, or if the strains are multiple undefined or defined.
Quoteand there are different strains of each of these as well?
Yes. They are not identical. And strain selection and ratio have a LOT to do with final flavor and aroma.
Quotecould they be selling different strains,
They are. Each house has their own isolates.
QuoteOr do you mean it is highly unlikely they use the same proportional mix,
This is also true. But generally, the ratio is within the range I specified for FD.
QuoteOr, are you pointing out that I've overlooked the difference in the last listed culture
They're the same genus and species. Renamed over the years. It went like this: Streptococcus citrovorus renamed to Leuconostoc citrovorum renamed to Leuconostoc cremoris, renamed to Leuconostoc mesenteroides ssp cremoris.
Thanks Linuxboy! Got it now.
See, even monkeys can learn! :)
Anyway, as an aside, the dairy whose buttermilk I've been using got back to me today and, not surprisingly, can't tell me what cultures they use in their buttermilk as it is commericially sensitive information. Fair enough.
- Jeff
Quotecan't tell me what cultures they use in their buttermilk as it is commericially sensitive information.
Oh please. As if someone couldn't take all the commercial options, get a sample of their product, isolate the strains, do PCR, and match them up. What is this, 1975? Wankers.
Obviously, with a screenname like linuxboy, I have no strong opinions about open source vs closed source information. :P
Its reminds me of that time I asked a local meat processing plant to help me out to source a meat fermentation culture to make some salami. (still havent been able to source the culture and im not crazy enough to do wild fermentation on raw meat).
They said its a trade secret and they cant help me.
Tomer, which salami? I might be able to help. The makers are the same for cheese as for meats. Cargill, Hansen, etc dominate. Sometimes, salamis are adjuncted in addition to classic lactobacilli and you'll find other proteolytic bacteria, like S xylosum.
Quote from: JeffHamm on September 12, 2011, 09:50:51 PM
See, even monkeys can learn! :)
Recently saw "Rise of the Planet of the Apes" which confirms that statement! ;)
Quote from: Tomer1 on September 12, 2011, 10:25:10 PM
Its reminds me of that time I asked a local meat processing plant to help me out to source a meat fermentation culture to make some salami. (still havent been able to source the culture and im not crazy enough to do wild fermentation on raw meat).
They said its a trade secret and they cant help me.
Tomer, have you touched base with DeejayDebi (http://www.deejayssmokepit.net/)? She might be able to help you out.
-Boofer-
Quote from: linuxboy on September 12, 2011, 10:10:01 PM
Oh please. As if someone couldn't take all the commercial options, get a sample of their product, isolate the strains, do PCR, and match them up. What is this, 1975? Wankers.
This was my first laugh of the morning. Why do you always pull your punches, LB? Say what you REALLY think! ;D
I believe that a lot of times when some one say's "That's proprietary information" it should be translated as "I have no idea". In a commercial operation they are following procedures and the starter is "the starter" and they know where they get it and how much to use, but may have little idea of what it really is. Somebody there knows, but he's not the guy with the desk and the telephone that you're going to get a hold of. I see this happen regularly in my business, with customer service reps saying absolutely absurd things about our process and materials. It's probably better to have them say "It's proprietary information" than to have them say something ridiculous.
Dave in CT
"Tomer, which salami?"
Accually I didnt have a specific kind ,Just wanted to know whats available and carry from there.
Im sure DeejayDebi can help but unfortunatlly shipping it overseas is not an option because of storage temp restrictions.
That's usually lactobacillus plantarum, lactobacilus acidilacti, lactobacilus sakei, or lactobacillus curvatus, Pediococcus pentosaceus, Staphylococcus xylosus or a blend.
here in the US, the big distributor for chris hansen for meat products is
http://www.butcher-packer.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=207 (http://www.butcher-packer.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=207)
You could contact the local Hansen office and ask them who the local distributor is. It might not be exact, but it will get you pretty close to the authentic flavor.