Im making a stirred curd cheddar from my own goats milk. I have been advised on this site to try adding a little CaCl. I make 1 gallon batches at a time when should I add the CaCl and in what quantities and at what temperature?
CaCl2 is normally bought in diluted form, assume yours is.
There are some threads on it here (https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/board,149.0/sort,subject.html).
CaCl2 is a rennet coagulation and most people only use when using pasteurized milk. It is definitely added before rennet, I think there is some discussion as to whether it should be added before or after starter culture or colourant such as annatto. I just add mine at room temperature as that is how I store it. I go with my bottle's dosage rate, there's a discussion here (https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,2437.0.html) on making your own and dosage rates.
I use the flakes/granules version. The instructions I have say to use about 0.8-1 gram/3 liters of pasteurized milk.
It doesn't matter when it's added except when Annatto is used that has to be added as first ingredient before everything.
No need for CaCl with raw milk.
Thanks for that guys, Im not buying store bought milk, Im using my own goat milk which I choose to pasteurise. I bought some dilute CaCl today ( very cheap, compared to I see what people are saying on this site ) My bottle has no instruction on it as to dosage, infact it has no instuctions on it at all! I am also still a little confused as how to use it. Do I add it before the rennet but as the time as adding the rennet?
Between Annatto (if used) and Rennet.
Let's make it very simple, add CaCl after cooling stage of pasteurization.
P.S.
If I may, personal interest, where in Israel did you make cheese?
Hi Alex thanks for that, but I'm still not quite sure of something. 1st I dont use any colour in my cheese. My method, is I heat my milk to the required temp, add M400 starter and leave for 1 hour, then I add my rennet and leave for a further 1 hour, then cut a heal my curd before cooking. Armed with this in formation, when would you suggest I add my CaCl?
You may ask about my time in Israel, no problem. I was never concerned with making cheese there, rather I worked on many of the big Kibbutz dairy farms, producing the milk, mainly in the north including the Jordan valley and the Beit Shan valley as well as others. I was there between 1991 and 1998.
The most important rule in cheese making is to add Rennet as the last ingredient and not to touch the milk until curdled.
So, as per your description of the process, add the CaCl after or with the starter.
You've been in a hot climate zone. Have you been a "mitnadev"? I guess you speek hebrew? I am in Haifa.
Thanks for that Alex, yes I was a volunteer for a while, I did speak Hebrew fluently but now Ive forgoten alot, as I dont use it very much. I know Haifa very well I lived there for 2 years, opposite the theater in Hadar behind Gan Benyamin, Rehov Yoshua 11 to be exact. My ex wife ( thats when I stopped being a Mitnadev ) was from kiryat Yam. What cheeses are you making in Haifa?
May be some day you'll come back. You should know that the most beautyfull girls in Israel are from the "Krayot".
Cheeses I make? I like very much the French cheeses, surface ripened and rind washed cheeses.
I make Gouda with and without additives, Havarti with and without additives, Manchego, Munster, Limburger, Gruyere, Jack with additives, Tomme, Mozzarella, Haloumi, Feta, Labneh, Zfatit (if you still remember), Camembert, Brie, A wide variety of Lactic type cheeses. I mainly use cow's milk and occasionally goat's. I am trying to make Cheddar, everybody is making it, so, why not me? :P
I'll take the opportunity and recommend you a good book about goat cheese making, although there are only 2-3 recipes in it the theoretical part should be of interest to you:
THE FABRICATION OF FARMSTEAD GOAT CHEESE]THE FABRICATION OF FARMSTEAD GOAT CHEESE by Jean-Claude Le Jaouen.
http://www.amazon.com/Fabrication-Farmstead-Goat-Cheese/dp/0960740430/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1270394557&sr=1-1 (http://www.amazon.com/Fabrication-Farmstead-Goat-Cheese/dp/0960740430/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1270394557&sr=1-1)
I hope to return 1 day, I made many good friends in my 7 years. You have sparked my interest with 2 of your cheeses, Labneh and brie, I miss my labneh, and my longterm girlfriend is interested in making brie, I presume this is possible with goats milk? Ive been looking for recipes on this site and others can you point me in the right direction in the making of these 2 cheeses ( oh and a good supply of zatar :) ) I take it you are a sabra?
https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,3597.new.html#new (https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,3597.new.html#new)
Above is the link to the Labneh recipe the way I make it. Using goat's milk will be much better than cow's milk. Zaatar you can make by yourself, here it is how:
1/2 cup of dried thyme
1 Tbs of dried oregano
2 ts of soumak
1 Tbs of coarse salt
2 Tbs of sesame seeds
Olive oil
Crush everything, except sesame and oil, with a mortar and pestle, mix in the sesame seeds and a litle olive oil to moisten the mixture.
QuoteI take it you are a sabra?
No, I am not. I came to Israel when I was 14, from the Hungarian region in Roumania, i.e. Transylvania.
Shalom Alex, your recipes are making my mouth water already! I do have a few questions concerning the Labneh recipe, Which brings me back to my original question about CaCl. I have a pre bought solution not flakes, so what quantity should I use? By enzime does the recipe mean rennet? what spices should I add? Thanks for the zaatar recipe, Labaneh without zaatar is to the English, like strawberries without cream! Small world we live in, my ex wifes mother was from the same place as you. AM ISRAEL CHI!
No kidding, really small world :D
Personally, I don't like to add spices to the Labneh, just Zaatar and olive oil when serving accompanied with a fresh hot pita bread and some olives.
The type of enzyme I am using calls for 1 drop/1 liter of milk, and yes that's the rennet.
I've never worked with liquid CaCl, so I'm not familiar with it.
P.S. After such a long ;) relationship, I think it's time to reveal your name, don't you? ;) :D
With pre-mixed CaCl, you should probably use 1 teaspoon or less for 2 gallons. I would probaly start with 1/2 of that and see what happens. You can always adjust up or down next time.
Ma Yanim Alex? Sorry for not introducing my self, S and Q is Sally and Quentin, I am Quentin, Q for short! thanks for all the info on labneh. Are you using CaCl, because you are using shop bought milk? Where are you getting goat milk from in Haifa? Why do you think goat milk is better?
Im very impressed with your English, I count 3 languages you must speak
Alex, I forgot to ask, how long have you been in Israel?
Sailor, thanks for a definitive answer on amounts, you say I should see what happens, but I am so new to this I don't really know what I'm looking for yet, could you please enlighten a complete novice. Thanks Q
In order to answer that, I have to ask why you feel you need to use it?
The molecular structure of calcium is a complicated discusssion. But, as a simple explaination, CaCl is generally used to "fix" milk calcium that has been damaged or compromised. This can be from pasteurization, late lactation, poor quality milk, etc. For example, you should usually use it with most store bought milk.
The symptoms that might suggest using CaCl are:
- You need to use more rennet than "normal"
- Slow flocculation (early stage of curd set)
- Slow curd set
- Weak curd (like thick yogurt or soft pudding)
- No true "clean break"
- Excessive loss of milk fat after curd cutting and during "cooking". (whey is white instead of greenish)
- ... I'm sure there are others, but these are what I look for.
If you aren't having any of these problems, you probably don't need to use CaCl anyway. There are many other variables that can also cause these problems.
QuoteMa Yanim Alex? Sorry for not introducing my self, S and Q is Sally and Quentin, I am Quentin, Q for short! thanks for all the info on labneh. Are you using CaCl, because you are using shop bought milk? Where are you getting goat milk from in Haifa? Why do you think goat milk is better?
Im very impressed with your English, I count 3 languages you must speak
Hakol Sababa,
I use CaCl only when I pasteurize the raw milk. Our store bought milk is suitable for lemon cheese making only. Goats milk I get in Osfyia, a Druize village near Haifa where I have my woodworking shop as well. The Druize and Arab population prefer the Labneh to be made from goat's milk.
Thanks for the complement about my English. Actually I speak Hungarian, Romanian, Hebrew, English and some German that I didn't practice lately. I'm in Israel since April 1961.
Wow, how did this whole thread flew under my radar? I am the other Haifa guy here... born and raised but living in NYC now. I make Labaneh on regular basis from both Cows' and Goats' milk. I start by making the yogurt. Almost boil milk, cool it down rapidly in a second bowl of ice water to 115F, then add culture. I found yogurt cultures that are quite sour and give you good gelling. I sometime just copy a yogurt that I like by putting a tablespoon of it into the milk instead of purchased culture - works as long as its pure and has no additives. I incubate 6 hours in a yogurt maker, but you can simply use a Thermos. I then drain the whey for 24 hours in fine mesh strainer over a bowl in the refrigerator, turning this into Greek-style yogurt. I add LITTLE sea salt half way through this (enough salt to help extract more whey but not enough to kill the proactive bacterias - we still need them alive. Do not use iodized salt). I then take it out in cheesecloth and leave it out in approx 65F for a day. The longer I do, the thicker and more sour it is. I found that non-homogenized milk makes much better and firmer yogurt and need no additives such as CalCl or Milk Powder.
If you sabras are into making yogurt, you will love this one; I now take Halva (the stringy type) and mix it in yogurt. it melts right into it giving you a great Halva flavored yogurt. Last time I made too much so I stuck it in my Ice Cream maker and got frozen Halva yogurt to die for. Try it!
May I call you "Y"?
1. Nice idea with the Halva :), thanks
2. I wish you paid me a visit when you've been in Haifa, so you owe me ;)
3. We are not Sabras, Quentin is a British expat living in Bulgaria and I was born in Transylvania :D
4. Read the whole thread, it worth it ;D
Sure, Call me Y. Some people here don't get that my user name is I-Rather-Fly (ex-pilot) so they call assume my name is Ira.
You guys are Sabra enough to me - I did read the thread! Being an expat living in NY; I am less Sabra than you are these days :)
Still haven't been back to Haifa. Our winter trip got canceled due to some incoming projects. We are going to Paris next week instead where we will meet my parents (who are coming from Haifa). Maybe nit as sunny, but great cheese :)
I will be in Israel for 2 weeks in July following a week in Spain where I intend to take some cooking or cheese making workshops. You are definitely in my plans for Israel!
I should be very proud by guessing your nick "I-Rather-Fly".
"due to some incoming projects" - is a very blessed reason to cancell any other plans.
As for July, I will be honored to be visited during such a short stay of yours.
Of course. I intend on making cheese in Israel too. We are not too far. We will have an apartment rented in Tel Aviv by the water but will be in Haifa on the Carmel about half the time. I usually visit every 3-4 months but haven't been since October. I'll make up for my sorrows of missing my homeland by eating more cheese in Paris next week :)
By the way - if you need me to bring anything for cheese for you from here I would be more than happy to
Hey guys what about me? Im 12 years over due a visit! Sabra or not we are all Israelis! Im coming back for the shwarma and humus, mana from heaven. Thanks for the info Y I shall be trying Labneh very soon! Ill let you both know how I get on Q
Keep us posted. If you haven't been in Israel in a while you would be shocked by the culinary scene. All these chefs who worked in the US, Europe and even Japan came back to a booming economy and opened incredible cafes, restaurants, bakeries, boutique wineries and yes - many small artisanal cheese operations from Israelis who trained for many years in Italy and France. A new breed of supermarkets now offer everything you can find in their European and American counterparts and local produce is incredible and fresh. I still think that Haifa is the world capital of Falafel though. I seriously considered starting an artisanal food operation there recently but I am now launching a tech startup in New York and Tel Aviv
Y,
A nice way of consolation missing the homeland ::). So, I wish you happy cheesing there. 8)
Let me consider your very kind proposal in the future, thanks.
Q,
Nice to hear you feel Israeli, It's flattering me as an Israeli citizen. 12 years over? It's time to break the drought. Haifa is the capital of the Falafel and Shawarma in Israel, as well as the best area of genuine oriental food.
For me, starter addition is independent of CaCl2 addition. Color is added at the beginning and CaCl2 is added mid vat fill and rennet at the very end. I try to keep as short of ripening time as possible to reduce phage infection risk. Starter is added 3/4 way into filling the vat.
Sailor, My main reason for choosing to use CaCl was that I was using milk sterilized to 82 C, and being a novice I didnt realize the damage it was doing to my milk, when being used for cheese. I have now switched to using raw milk and can see a dramatic difference in the curd, and thus dont think I need to use Ca Cl now. I obviously have learned here that any cheese I make from raw milk has to be aged for 60 days at least. Thanks for the input Q
Hey Alex,
Let me first correct my Hebrew Ma Inyanim! I have just seen your pics on another thread stretching curd. It makes it all a bit more personal now having seen you face. I'm not computer literate so wouldn't know how to post pics here, but If you can get access to a back issue of LA EISHA magazine December 1996 There is a 4 page article on myself and my ex wife! Might explain a bit more as to why I feel Israeli.
I know the Druze village you are talking about I worked on Moshav Habonim in the Refet for about a year. I can understand Labneh being made from goats milk now you have put a mental picture back in my mind
Not tried Labneh yet as not been able to connect to the web for days and get the recipe but it is on my list of things to do, and soon! Lahitraot Q
Quote from: SANDQ on April 10, 2010, 09:56:40 PM
Hey Alex,
Let me first correct my Hebrew Ma Inyanim! I have just seen your pics on another thread stretching curd. It makes it all a bit more personal now having seen you face. I'm not computer literate so wouldn't know how to post pics here, but If you can get access to a back issue of LA EISHA magazine December 1996 There is a 4 page article on myself and my ex wife! Might explain a bit more as to why I feel Israeli.
I know the Druze village you are talking about I worked on Moshav Habonim in the Refet for about a year. I can understand Labneh being made from goats milk now you have put a mental picture back in my mind
Not tried Labneh yet as not been able to connect to the web for days and get the recipe but it is on my list of things to do, and soon! Lahitraot Q
Hi,
I'll look for that journal and about how to upload pics, it's in the FAQ (https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,51.0.html) section.
Hey guys,
quick question - I accidentally overheated my raw milk when rising the temp to 35°C and went up to 50°C before i noticed, after that I quickly cooled it down. Do i have to add calcium chloride, or am I still ok without it?
What is the critical temperature for milk after which calcium chloride has to be added?
Thanks
Quote from: Walrus on April 09, 2022, 12:50:41 PM
Hey guys,
quick question - I accidentally overheated my raw milk when rising the temp to 35°C and went up to 50°C before i noticed, after that I quickly cooled it down. Do i have to add calcium chloride, or am I still ok without it?
What is the critical temperature for milk after which calcium chloride has to be added?
Thanks
You could go either way. Never hurts to add calcium chloride, but sometimes it's needed. I don't think it's necessary here. Think of it as a spectrum - the longer/hotter you heat the milk, the more components start to break down in the milk. So a brief slight overheating is not as damaging as holding at pasteurization temps.
I didn't add any CaCL and it coagulated just fine, so 50°C is not a problem yet :)
I use low temperature pasteurized cow's milk and never add CaCl. Using rennet paste, I never have a problem with coagulation. Many of the books recommend CaCl, but once you get a little experience under your belt it's not really necessary. Avoid unnecessary ingredients if at all possible.
To be clear, the amount of CaCl you need is *completely* dependent upon the milk. You may never have trouble with you low temperature pasteurised cow's milk, but I can tell you that *my* low temperature pasteurised cow's milk will not set a curd without it. Caldwell even talks in her book about a time when she needed to add it to her *raw* milk! It's a good idea to do a flocculation test to see what level of CaCl you are likely to need rather than experimenting with entire cheeses :-) I agree, though, that minimising the CaCl is a good idea. I also believe that minimising the amount of rennet you use is a good idea. However, that's about not adding more "just in case". You need to add the appropriate amount to hit your targets.