A few months ago, frustrated by small batches and uneven curd cubes, I decided circular pots were not for me. I thought to use hotel pans (the pans in a buffet) and I have seen here some people were using an electric chafer, which is a great idea because the temp control, but I cannot take the electrical load on my solar system. So then, I looked for the biggest hotel pan I could find, which turned out to be called a spillage pan and was approx 20"x12"x8" deep or 8.3 US gal. Now, after a few months, I am having a hell of a time finding the 8" deep pans again.
Also, the size is still too small because that will be the outer water pan, but the inner pan will have to be even smaller, and I am shooting for at least 8 gallon batches.
So I started calling around to fabricators. Thus far I got one very rough estimate of $300-500 for my custom-made ideal setup. Out of my price range... Does anyone have any ideas? I would much prefer rectangles to circular, But a large shallow circular would be acceptable. The problem being those cost like $350 if you get them stainless.
Anyway, any ideas would be much appreciated. Even just keywords I might search.
Thanks
Nitai
I think I might be onto something! Polycarbonate food storage containers. There are many sizes, big enough to do even 20+ gallon batches, which I do not see myself doing. They can withstand heat at least to 212F, far more than is needed for almost all cheeses. What do you all think? They are supposed to resist acidification, but I know they are not as good as stainless or glass.
With that in place my only need would be to find some kind of metal tub big enough to house my container with enough extra space to keep the poly away from all heating elements and safe in 110F or less water.
This is a very exciting potential breakthrough for me.
Polycarbonate is a very poor thermal conductor and will be difficult to heat.
BC, the polycarbonate sounded like a good idea until I read Sailor's post.
I just checked member Debi's thread (https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,1802.0.html) and you are right, it look like the store that she bought her full size 8" chafing/steam table pan is out of business.
Member Corneilus had a good idea of this water based steam table (https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,1428.msg10643.html#msg10643), kind of looks like it will only hold 4" deep pans and not sure how much water it will hold, maybe they have deeper ones.
Member Carter built a plastic water bath and heater (https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,512.0.html) for his XL chafing dish.
I did see another member using the same idea as Carter but with addition of a lid they had cut out to hold the pan, just can't find the thread, sorry.
Quote from: Sailor Con Queso on April 10, 2010, 04:47:52 AM
Polycarbonate is a very poor thermal conductor and will be difficult to heat.
Can you elaborate on this? Will it just be slow? I am having trouble seeing how it will be much of a problem if it is submerged in a water bath. Its only function is really to keep the water and the milk from mixing.
He is saying it will take a long time for the heat to travel through the polycarbonate from the water into the milk. Practically speaking that means that you could not make temp adjustments on the milk very effectively. Your water temp would vary significantly from your milk temp. Even with stainless steel I get a difference of 3-4 degrees. You would be looking at a lot more. It is hard to say whether it would work or not but it is definitely not ideal.
As John pointed out from carter's setup, polycarbonate would be great for the outside part of a double broiler because it would insulate the water and keep the heat inside.
Until I got my big pot, I was constantly on the lookout for something too. I wish I was more help. I also noticed your comment about round pots. Square is better for cutting curds uniformly but round pots are easier to design a stirring apparatus for. Since stirring is the most time consuming aspect of cheese making I went round. :) Just my two cents worth. Good luck.
Thank you for elaborating. Yes, perhaps my best bet would be to invest time and money in customized curd knife and just surrender to the round pot... :-\ I do have two big stainless pots already, like the kind for frying turkeys or whatever...
Regarding stirring, you have piqued my curiosity, I had not even thought of a special stirring instrument. What do you have?
The problem with Carter's setup for me is I have to heat with fire, can't use electricity. I suppose I could heat water and pour it in, but that is not ideal.
Sorry to post so much, but I can't stop thinking about cheese.
So I broke out my big pots and was delighted to find I have one 11 gal 304 SS pot that nests beautifully inside another bigger 304 SS, leaving about 3" on the bottom and 1" or so all the way around. So now I think I will just fashion a curd cutter and be done with it! But I do have the two following questions:
Because this will be a fairly tall setup, and I still only plan to heat with fire from below, will I get very uneven heating even though I have a water bath?
Secondly, is using 304 for both a recipe for disaster?
Sorry again for posting so much, but thank you all.
That sounds like a great setup. If you stir the milk constantly, the fire heating the water won't focus heat on one portion of milk. I use a heating element in my water tank but I do not have to manually circulate the water; it circulates through convection currents sufficiently. The thickness of the steel should not matter since the water is a sufficient buffer.
As far as a stirrer, I will link (https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,2246.0.html) mine if you promise not to laugh. :) It is just an old ice cream churn motor and wooden paddle. I added a rheostat control after this pic. It made a major difference in my cheesemaking "fatigue".
Thanks for the encouraging words and awesome ice cream churn rig! I know the perils of stirring. Ever tried to make indian milk fudge (burfi)? Thats cooking milk down to a fudge, and that means hours and hours of stirring and scraping the bottom. I don't think I will be able to rig something cool like you have, I will just have to got he backbreaking route.
Why not use hot water or cold as needed with a hose set up into your water bath jacket. Put your nested pots in place where you can simply put the hose in the bottom of the water jacket and run water in overflowing the edge and run off until the target water bath temp is reached.
You can soon make a chart for the degrees needed in the water bath to warm set amounts of milk in the cheese vat.
I can tell you that using direct heat under the water bath is not ideal unless you have a way to circulate the water.
Perhaps if you could put a circulating pump in the bottom of your pot, but that doesn't sound viable in this situation.
Running water presents these issues for me:
I am not comfortable letting the water run over for any extended period because, we have only well water and we run off of a struggling solar system. This means the less water we have to pump, the better. Also, regulating the water temp is wasteful because we have a flash heater that is a ways away from the sink, meaning you have to wait and waste in order to even get hot. There is of course the stove, but I just picture getting all flustered going back and forth from hose so sink to stove to thermometer.
Does anyone have a system for this that is easier than I am thinking it will be, and that uses less water?\
Thanks,Nitai
Quote from: H.A.M. on April 22, 2010, 12:06:23 AM
Why not use hot water or cold as needed with a hose set up into your water bath jacket. Put your nested pots in place where you can simply put the hose in the bottom of the water jacket and run water in overflowing the edge and run off until the target water bath temp is reached.
You can soon make a chart for the degrees needed in the water bath to warm set amounts of milk in the cheese vat.
Hmmmm.. this sounds interesting. Mind elaborating a bit more on this "water jacket" procedure? Got a link to anything that can break this all down for me?
Because that plan sounds mighty good
Use solar heated hot water. Even on cloudy days you can generate water that is way hotter than needed for cheese. A simple old hot water heater tank sitting in the direct sun would do it. Then circulate from the tank to a vat/tub with a low volume D.C. pump. Even the pump could run on a small photovoltaic panel (cheap on eBay). This would work great for Mesophilic cheeses that are only heated to 101F or less. Thermophiles (Swiss & Italian types) might be more difficult because they are heated to a much higher temperature during final cooking. You could still process them through the ripening, curd set, and some early cooking and then move to a stove or other heat source for the final cooking.
Good post, Sailor!
Thanks, Sailor,
Those are good thoughts. I don't think I have the $ right now, but you can heat water pretty good with a coil of black polyethelene pipe on the roof. That might be a good way to go...
I am thinking though what if I just had a good way to agitate my water bath (with direct heat underneath). Like what about a tube with air flowing into the water making bubbles and stirring things up?
The pipe certainly gets hot enough but you need the volume and circulation that a tank would provide.
I used to build solar heated houses. I produced hot water on the roof in solar panels and circulated it through copper pipes integrated into the concrete floor in the basement. All it needed was a consistent supply of "warm" water to bring the concrete slab up to 68F. The massive thermal mass in the concrete would "radiate" heat for days with just a little recharging every now and then. And at 68F it would not overheat if there was a sudden warm spell. Any excess from the roof was diverted for dometic hot water use. I built 52 houses like this and they are all still working like a charm. The only moving part is the pump, which is easy to replace.
Sailor, I have often dreamed of putting a very similar concept in place. Great idea. Amazing that it is not more prevalent considering the cost efficiency.
I also want to make a point about the water in the heating tank or water jacket of the double broiler setup. If you are stirring the milk in the main pot, there is very little reason to circulate the water. For two reasons:
1. If the water is being heated from the bottom, it will rise (because it becomes less dense) and create convection currents that will circulate as effectively as any other method. Just drop a little food color in and watch. If you were heating from the top it might be a problem, but definitely not from the bottom.
2. The milk is also absorbing the heat as well and then distributing it throughout itself as you stir so there is a constant flow of heat by conduction from the water underneath, through the pot, to the milk, where it is distributed and then it moves back to the water if there is colder water somewhere in the outside container. By this stirring of the milk there is a kind of equalization of the temp overall. My water tank stays at the same temp throughout with no circulation and a 2500w element on the bottom.
Just a personal observation. Next to newton's laws, my favorite subject was thermodynamics. :) :o
Quote from: FarmerJd on April 23, 2010, 02:28:34 AM
Sailor, I have often dreamed of putting a very similar concept in place. Great idea. Amazing that it is not more prevalent considering the cost efficiency.
I also want to make a point about the water in the heating tank or water jacket of the double broiler setup. If you are stirring the milk in the main pot, there is very little reason to circulate the water. For two reasons:
1. If the water is being heated from the bottom, it will rise (because it becomes less dense) and create convection currents that will circulate as effectively as any other method. Just drop a little food color in and watch. If you were heating from the top it might be a problem, but definitely not from the bottom.
2. The milk is also absorbing the heat as well and then distributing it throughout itself as you stir so there is a constant flow of heat by conduction from the water underneath, through the pot, to the milk, where it is distributed and then it moves back to the water if there is colder water somewhere in the outside container. By this stirring of the milk there is a kind of equalization of the temp overall. My water tank stays at the same temp throughout with no circulation and a 2500w element on the bottom.
Just a personal observation. Next to newton's laws, my favorite subject was thermodynamics. :) :o
Great post!!
JD - Radiant slab heat is unbelievably efficient. Every home in the country should be built that way. (a long discussion). ::)
You are using direct heating with an element in your vat. So, I agree. No need for circulation. However, if you are using an external source such as a solar or electric heated hot water tank, then the water must be recirculated to provide fresh hot water as the vat water cools down.
I would run VERY insulated pipe from the tank to the vat. Inside the vat would be a coil of copper tubing to complete the "closed loop". To start, fill the vat up with very hot tap water. The hotter the better because it's going to transfer all that heat to the cold milk anyway. A low flow pump would be turned on/off by a controller with a temperature probe in the vat. The pump would run as needed to provide additional heat. VERY much like what I did with radiant slab heating.
You could also use a double walled kettle and eliminate the need for the copper tubing. I am considering this type of setup in the 40 gallon range.
Does the hotel pan fit in your sink? I have a very tiny sink and I did a post here a while back just using the sink as the heater. If you get a hose you could just siphon the water out to reheat it if neccesary. I add water heated in a teapot when I need hotter water.
The company I bought mine from did go out of business but if you search for electric chaffing dishes you'll find several. We rigged up vat for a friend making a water pan from a large meat lug and put a nylon threaded ball valve with a hose on the side to drain water. Then just set the hotel pan inside the meat lug. Drain some water heat it on the stove or micro wave then re-add the heated water back to the meat lug. You'll only need a few gallons of heating water that way. She has a well that is always running low so it worked out well. The 8 inch deek hotel pans are hard to find one day they are available the next poof! I only get 7 gallons in mine or I spill to much.
Thank you JD and everyone else. But especially JD, because now I feel comfortable proceeding with my setup. I will post some pictures soon. Basically I have what I think is an 11 gallon pot that nests nicely in what I think is a 16.5 gallon pot, leaving about 3 inches below and an inch all around the sides. These pots came from BayouClassic. I will be heating with a BayouClassic heating element (gas), and lo-and-behold, stirring with a 48" BayouClassic paddle, a la Carter.
I abandoned the hotel pan idea and opted instead for custom curd cutters to get the uniform cubes I wanted from the rectangular hotel pans. Silver Solder should be here any day and the curd cutter will begin. Calf due in three weeks, better get everything ready in time...
You are all so helpful. Thank you!
Quote from: Nitai on April 23, 2010, 06:28:29 PM
Silver Solder should be here any day and the curd cutter will begin.
Hmmm.. what do you plan on silver soldering?
The stainless steel frames...right...? :-\
QuoteBasically I have what I think is an 11 gallon pot that nests nicely in what I think is a 16.5 gallon pot, leaving about 3 inches below and an inch all around the sides.
This was almost identical to my original setup. I had a I think a 15 gallon and a 20 gallon and I set the whole thing on the wood stove. My present setup is a little bigger but I have 3 inches below and 2-3 inches on the sides. Good luck with the calf.
Quote from: Nitai on April 23, 2010, 06:47:07 PM
The stainless steel frames...right...? :-\
Oh-- okay. i thought you were going to solder the wires. Would've been pretty interesting seeing how they may have turned out.
I may experiement a little and try this myself
Quote from: humble_servant7 on April 24, 2010, 12:55:56 AM
Oh-- okay. i thought you were going to solder the wires. Would've been pretty interesting seeing how they may have turned out.
I may experiement a little and try this myself
Schwoo... you had me nervous there. No the plan right now is to drill holes and weave the wire through, we will see how it goes.
Stainless is tough to drill.
I was worried about that. Have not decided fully on a second approach, perhaps notching, but it has some less-than-ideal aspects. I seem to remember Wayne's cutter was drilled though, (of course he also suspends his pot from the ceiling, so we are clearly not equals...)
Quote from: Nitai on April 24, 2010, 04:31:42 AM
I was worried about that. Have not decided fully on a second approach, perhaps notching, but it has some less-than-ideal aspects. I seem to remember Wayne's cutter was drilled though, (of course he also suspends his pot from the ceiling, so we are clearly not equals...)
this is the approach I plan on going also.