I've made a few goudas now, and after cutting into one yesterday, found that the interior is not knit well again. I believe it is definitely mechanical, as I was meticulous with hygene. That, and when I can break the slices apart, and the edges are bumpy like a pile of curds.
My question is: am I pressing hard enough? I have read from multiple sources that gouda is lightly pressed, but the pressure apparently isn't enough to get a solid paste, even though the rind is knit beautifully.
Or is there something else that may be messing me up?
I understood that gouda should be pressed at about 5 -6 psi. That's what i did. It was hard not to throw the whole weight on there! :)
Are you prepressing under the whey? Gouda is prepressed, then cut into cubes, then put into kadova molds which are stacked, and then pressed, a lot of time in an A-frame type press.
As LB says, Gouda is traditionally pressed under whey. However, you might consider using my "Pressing In The Pot" technique. I am so pleased with this technique, that I never press under whey anymore. I started this with my cheddars, but this works great on any hard cheese.
Pressing In The Pot (https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,3221.msg26031.html#msg26031)
I have 1kg and 3kg kadova hoops. In the past I went by sight on how long to press. Now I have access to a vertical press. What psi should each of these hoops be pressed at. I turn after a half hour and then press for another hour or more depending on what it looks like.
Thanks
JMB
If you are using PSI and not weight then the PSI would remain constant regardless of the mold that you are using. I press Gouda at 3 PSI but some people here press harder to get a better curd knit. It sort of depends on how you are managing the curds just before pressing. If you don't do adequate "pre-pressing" then you will need more PSI to get a smooth interior texture. "Pressing In The Pot" makes that easier.
A total of 2 hours pressing is not enough unless you are REALLY using high PSI. I press overnight.
I am using actual psi now. I use these hoops to make cheddars and monterey jacks too. Does it take a differrent psi depending on which cheese I am pressing?
JMB
@linuxboy - I don't quite understand the process of prepressing under the whey. I put the curd into a cheesecloth lined mold and put the mold back into the whey. I don't have any weights that will fit in my pot, so I just pushed it down firmly by hand for about a minute to try to expel any air that was in the curd. Not the appropriate method, I know. How long and how much pressure should I be using?
@farmer - 5 to 6 psi would mean that I am REALLY underpressing. I followed Tim Smith's procedure which calls for only 20# ( that would be 80# in my 8" mold , only 1.5 psi) I really need to get a different press. My spring type one only gets up to 80#. That, and I need to cross-reference my procedures. Even Ricki Carroll says to press @ 50# (202# for my 8"mold, or 4psi).
@sailor - yes, I've seen your pressing in the pot. I believe you easily got a nice, solid rind in a cheddar with little weight. I think I need to get some weights so I can do this also. Does the paste come out as well as the rind when pressing in the pot? I think I like this better than pressing under whey, as it is already in the mold and I wouldn't have to press, transfer, press again. But I will probably do both next time.
When I was consolidating all the ideas and recipes on this forum and the info from other sources, I sort of took the middle road and went 5-6 psi because I could.
In commercial practice, Univ. of Guelph says the following concerning gouda pressing:
"Allow curd to settle, and press under the whey by covering the curd with steel plates for at least 10 min. In commercial practice this is accomplished by moving the curd and some of the whey onto a press table. When curd is consolidated under the plates, drain the whey and cut to fit cloth-lined hoops. Press at 14 psi for 5 - 8 hrs. with occasional turning. After first turning increase pressure from 14 - 28 psi. The pH after pressing should be 5.3 - 5.5."[/size]I am sure that's overkill just to reduce time and ensure knitting, but I think it shows that you can't press too much. Am I right?[/size][/font]
Wow! Yeah, if that's the normal practice with a commercial cheese, I'd say that I don't have to worry about overpressing! I think that's more pressure than I would have even considered for a cheddar. Good to know!
Quick question-- how do you "press under whey" when using a dutch or off the wall-press considering that the cheese is in a mold?
Is there a way of specifically doing this?
Wouldnt the whey all leak out of the mold?
Or do you press the cheese in the S.S. pot with the whey in it?
I'm surprised that the wood touching the liquid whey wouldnt give off any type of bad bacteria that would contaminate the cheese.
Yes, I gather that pressing under the whey is done in the pot, before being transferred to the press. The whey would leak out, but air would not fill the pockets left by the whey, the curd would, resulting in a more solid cheese even before pressing in the press.
Wood touching the whey could transfer undesirable bacteria, flavors, and depending on the type of wood, even harmful tannins. That's why you should use SS or another food grade material for the follower and any other equipment and utensils coming into contact with the cheese/whey.
Quote from: FarmerJd on April 12, 2010, 10:59:22 PM
When I was consolidating all the ideas and recipes on this forum and the info from other sources, I sort of took the middle road and went 5-6 psi because I could.
In commercial practice, Univ. of Guelph says the following concerning gouda pressing:
"Allow curd to settle, and press under the whey by covering the curd with steel plates for at least 10 min. In commercial practice this is accomplished by moving the curd and some of the whey onto a press table. When curd is consolidated under the plates, drain the whey and cut to fit cloth-lined hoops. Press at 14 psi for 5 - 8 hrs. with occasional turning. After first turning increase pressure from 14 - 28 psi. The pH after pressing should be 5.3 - 5.5."[/size]I am sure that's overkill just to reduce time and ensure knitting, but I think it shows that you can't press too much. Am I right?[/size][/font]
This is virtually identical to our process for Gouda. Our prepress time is longer and final press shorter but it's pretty darn close.
Quote from: MarkShelton on April 13, 2010, 12:38:24 PM
Yes, I gather that pressing under the whey is done in the pot, before being transferred to the press.
So you arent using the press to press inside the s.s. pot? only after transferring?
So I guess the next question would be Then what are you using to press with when in the pot before the transfer to the dutch press?
forgive the questions. it just isnt making sense to me.
Peter Dixon suggests using a wire mesh atop the curds (which are in cheesecloth beneath whey) and pressing using a bucket filled with the appropriate weight... ;)
Humble, in commercial practice they use stainless steel plates and lay them on top of the curd in the whey. Then when the curd consolidates into one mass they cut into blocks that they lay into hoops for normal pressing. You could accomplish the same thing as Dixon (and scubagirl :) ) suggests.
By the way, why are my quotes carrying the formating markers? What am I doing wrong? It has started doing that lately. Anybody know?
Quote from: scubagirlwonder on April 13, 2010, 11:04:52 PM
Peter Dixon suggests using a wire mesh atop the curds (which are in cheesecloth beneath whey) and pressing using a bucket filled with the appropriate weight... ;)
Quote from: FarmerJd on April 14, 2010, 02:13:10 PM
Humble, in commercial practice they use stainless steel plates and lay them on top of the curd in the whey. Then when the curd consolidates into one mass they cut into blocks that they lay into hoops for normal pressing. You could accomplish the same thing as Dixon (and scubagirl :) ) suggests.
By the way, why are my quotes carrying the formating markers? What am I doing wrong? It has started doing that lately. Anybody know?
ah.. gotcha. thanks a bunch!
I hope my experience can help you. What do you mean by "pressing under the whey"?
Here is what I did; I have Dutch Gouda kit intended for hobby users, with two 500g (aprox 1 pound) cheese form (mold), with cloth.
I fill the mold (the cloth actually) with curd and place the top (directly translated from Dutch this is called the follower). It is then turned upside down and rested on the follower for 10 minutes. (the cheese is now being pressed by its own weight). Next it is pressed with "half weight" for 30 minutes. Half weight, being half of full weight, which is 3x the cheese weight. So for the 500 g cheese, half weight is 0,5x3x500gram = 750 gram.
Next it is pressed for 3,5 hours at full weight, being 3x500gram = 1500 gram.
Summary
10 mins upside down own weight
30 mins half weight
3,5 hrs full weight
when transferring from own weight to half weight I take out the cheese and turn it in the mold.
same thing for transfer from half weight to full weight. this really improves the form and shape of the cheese.
This helped me make a great shaped cheese the last time, I hope it helps you. Don't know if you can directly translate this to PSI and I am not sure if this is specific for this particular mold.
I put my mould in the pot and fill it with the curds then place a weight on top. I general do the final pressing in a large plastic bucket like container if posible. The residual heat helps bind the curds. I guess this is similar to what Sailor does but he uses a pot.
Sailor:
Let me get this right (since I'm going to try my first gouda this weekend...)
I have an 8" round mould... 4**2*pi=50.24 sq. in.
You mentioned that you're pressing at 3 psi... That would be (approximately) 150 lbs of weight!
Do I have this right?
-Michael
I am not sailor but yes you got it. :)
So basically I just need to get my two kids to stand on top of it for a few hours without moving...
Cool.. :-)
Methinks I need to set up some means of leverage...
-Michael
An 8" mold has a lot more surface area than a 4" or 6", so it takes a lot more weight to acheive the same pressure.
I think I need to set up a quicky lever press in my garage with a doubling pulley...Maybe even a 4x pulley? That should let me use some leverage arm "help" AND lighter physical weight to achieve the kind of pressing weights that will be required.
So my idea of a leverage arm brings up another question...
If I have an arm that is 5' long "tethered" (or hinged) to swing vertically on a fixed post at the 0' mark on one end, with the cheese mould at the 1' mark, what formula would I use to calculate the force applied at the 1' mark if I put a weight (say, 20lbs) at the 2' mark... 3' mark? 4' mark?
You get the idea...
Thanx...
-Michael
not a math whiz...
I used a large postal scale to actually measure and calibrate mine. Just put a 10 pound weight somewhere on the lever arm and the scale under the ramrod (piston). If the scale reads 30 pounds, then you have a 3:1 advantage at that location. I have my lever arm marked for 2:1, 3:1, 4:1 and 5:1.
My thought is that 1) I have the leverage arm which could give 4:1 or more... THEN I add a doubling pulley... Theoretically I could get a 150lb force (provding the 3 psi in an 8" mould I'm after) using a 25 lb weight (or less) by attaching the doubling pulley at the appropriate spot on the lever arm...
Prowling around on the web gives me the formula f1xd1=f2xd2 for simple leverage advantage... This is (I believe) a class 1 lever situation..
So from my example above:
|----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| <-My lever arm
^ (0') 1' 2' 3' 4' 5'
Attached to
wall at this pt.
1' is where the downward force is applied to the cheese hoop.
Roughly speaking, if f1d1=f2d2, at 3', I could put 150lbs and get a doubling action, @ 4' I would get a tripling, and at 5' a quadrupling.
So, if I attached a doubling pulley at 4' and apply a 50lb weight, I'll get 300 lbs @ the 1' mark...
Or am I way off base?
-Michael
Trying to make things more complicated than they really are.
The mechanical advantage of a machine is how much it multiplies your force. In your lever setup (without pulley) you can determine the mechanical advantage (MA) by simply dividing the length from the wall to the weight by the length from the wall to the follower. In your case that's easy since the bottom number is always 1. So your MA at each point is simply 2 at 2 feet, 3 at 3 feet, etc. When you put a weight at 3 feet off the wall, just multiply by 3 and that's your weight on the cheese. If you add a pulley that is positioned at the 4 foot mark (with one end of the rope attached to the floor and the weight on the other end,) then you double the MA to 8. If you add it at the 5 foot mark, the MA is 10.
QuoteSo, if I attached a doubling pulley at 4' and apply a 50lb weight, I'll get 300 lbs @ the 1' mark.
No, 400 lbs at the cheese. If that doesn't make sense let me know. i don't want to get to technical but I also don't want to insult. :)
Thanx... That makes perfect sense and corrects my miscalculation/misunderstanding...
Which also lets me know that if I take the cheese and put it at 6", I can double the MA ... :-)
This should be fun.. I scoped out how I'm going to build a quickie press that doesn't have to stay "set up" all the time..
-Michael