I just found out something today that was new information to me . . . and I'm a total new cheese maker so I wanted to bounce it off you more experienced people. I was getting ready to go to my neighborhood Kroger and get regular milk. What I discovered today is that . . . that would be a bad idea. Kroger and any mass retailer does what they call Ultra pasteurizing to their milk . . It is heated to super hot temps to make sure it has a very long shelf life. What I was told is that this ruins it for good cheese making . . . a lot of scientific stuff about protein chains and fat molecules and binding etc. But the bottom line is that it's bad for cheese making. What we want is what's called "low temperature" pasteurized milk. Secondly I was told that homogonizing milk is also bad for cheese making. That process also heats the milk to very hot temperatures so the cream will permanantly mix with the milk . . . and this process again ruins it for cheese making. So bottom line, I need to get low temperature pasteurized milk that is not homogonized. Is there anyone out there who can corroborate these facts? Thanks.
Ultrapasteurized dairy will not work for cheese. This means milk, but lookout, because even organic companies often ultrapasteurize their cream. Homogenization does not require heat, or at least not pasteurizing-intensity heat. Homogenization is basically blasting the milk through tiny holes or smashing it against steel plates to break the fat in the cream into smaller pieces that remain suspended in the milk as opposed to floating to the top.
I have heard (may not be true) that homogenization can cause heart problems because the body cannot properly recognize the fat molecules and work on them accordingly.
My local dairy low-heat pasteurizes and homogenizes their milk. I use it exclusivly. i have not had any problems with making cheese with this milk, and often, there is cream gathered at the neck of the container. i also found out yesterday that the arizona chain Basha's does not UP their half n half.
Maybe your Krogers carries milk from a local dairy?
Quote from: padams on April 17, 2010, 10:19:20 PM
My local dairy low-heat pasteurizes and homogenizes their milk. I use it exclusivly. i have not had any problems with making cheese with this milk, and often, there is cream gathered at the neck of the container. i also found out yesterday that the arizona chain Basha's does not UP their half n half.
Maybe your Krogers carries milk from a local dairy?
Thanks for the thought, Padams. But I have a great source for low-heat pasteurized non-homogenized milk. I'm not looking for a source. I originated this post just to get some validation of the new information I found out today.
For the most part, mass produced milks in America are simply pasteurized, and the most common form is HTST (high temperature, short time) where the milk is heated to a particular temperature (I think around 175 F) for about 15 sec or so. It's not as kind to the milk as vat pasteurization or LTLT (low temperature, long time) which only heats the milk to around 165 for a few minutes. The problem is that it is more of a specialty product, which means 1) it is more expensive, 2) it is hard to find, and 3) it is not a fast-moving product, so it may have been sitting on the shelf for quite a while, which I think is the worst of the 3.
Once I tried a store-bought milk that was low temp, vat pasteurized and non-homogenized. It sounded like the holy grail of supermarket milk. It felt like it too, I had to drive a few hours and to quit a few different stores looking for it. I was sorely disappointed when I got it home and tried to make cheese out of it. It would be an awesome milk to use, despite its high cost ($5 per 1/2 gal) but the cream on top, what little there was, was congealed so hard that it was impossible to mix back in. Additionally, the curd did not set at all the first round, so I had to rennet a second time. When I looked at the carton, it was only 1 day from the sell by date. It tasted old also :P There just isn't a lot of turnover for specialty products like that, which means they sit on the shelf far too long to make good cheese.
Regular milk brands have a much higher turnover, so it is easier to find fresher gallons of these than it is for the specialty milks, though I always check the expiration dates of most of the milk types in the store (I spend quite a while in the dairy section). The furtherst sell-by date I have found is 15 days later, so I figure that is about the shelf life of supermarket milk. I'll barely consider milk that is 10 days or less from the sell-by date.
The UHT or ESL milks are becoming more and more prevalent in the larger chain stores.
I am just now learning about ESL milk. Previously, I have just overlooked it thinking it was just a different type of pasteurization, but its actually a filtration process to lower the bacteria count before pasteurization, which can then be done with lower temperatures.
I suppose this is good for the taste of milk, as the high temp pasteurization can be avoided, and the more favorable low-temp used resulting in a less "cooked-tasting" milk.
However, it is these bacteria that are beneficial to the acidification of cheese, so for cheesemaking, this is bad news.
However, it seems that ESL milk is still a specialty product, and I don't see it overtaking regular supermarket milk anytime soon, despite its increase in popularity. Just like organic foods--they are becoming increasingly popular, but still just a fraction of the food market.
Quote from: DeejayDebi on April 18, 2010, 04:08:42 AM
The UHT or ESL milks are becoming more and more prevalent in the larger chain stores.
Debi . . . Because I'm a newbie, I have to guess at what your abbreviations mean (UHT and ESL) . . . I'm guessing you're referring to the form of the pasteurizing process and that UHT means "Ultra High Temperature Pasteurized" . . . . And I don't have any idea what "ESL" means. Could it be "Electronic, slow and Low"? Am I close? Could you help?
Wanders of Googleing ;), copied from Wikipedia:
Pasteurization typically uses temperatures below boiling since at very high temperatures milk, casein micelles will irreversibly aggregate (or "curdle"). There are two main types of pasteurization used today: High Temperature/Short Time (HTST) and "Extended Shelf Life (ESL)" treatment. Ultra-high temperature (UHT or ultra-heat treated) is also used for milk treatment. In the HTST process, milk is forced between metal plates or through pipes heated on the outside by hot water, and is heated to 71.7 °C (161 °F) for 15–20 seconds. UHT processing holds the milk at a temperature of 135 °C (275 °F) for a fraction of a second. ESL milk has a microbial filtration step and lower temperatures than HTST.[4] Milk simply labeled "pasteurised" is usually treated with the HTST method, whereas milk labeled "ultra-pasteurised" or simply "UHT" has been treated with the UHT method.
I'd avoid using homogenized milk for cheesemaking because it alters the fat globules. I mainly use HTST pasteurized milk for cheddar, mozzarella & cottage.
My HTST milk is heated to ~73C and held for 16 seconds. UHT milk is heated to (I'm guessing here) ~135C for 3 seconds or so. (compressed steam is used to get the temp over 100C)
One way to get around the problem of homogenization is to get skim milk and add back the fat with heavy whipping cream. I don't think it's exactly the same as non-homogenized milk, but I know the fat globules in cream are much larger, so its comparable.
Quote from: MarkShelton on April 18, 2010, 05:59:09 PM
One way to get around the problem of homogenization is to get skim milk and add back the fat with heavy whipping cream. I don't think it's exactly the same as non-homogenized milk, but I know the fat globules in cream are much larger, so its comparable.
Just watch the ingredients on the whipping cream - stabilizers can be added. Check the label.
What should I look for? What are some of the common stabilizers?
I haven't worked in the non-cheese side for a long time -- likely may be carageenen (sp?) but the ingredient label should show - hopefully. In Canada, stabilizers are added to the whipping creams to help "stabilize" so to speak the resulting whipped topping.
Reading in here for awhile has really made be appreciate the artisan cheesemaker more because its difficult to get the ingredients that I take for granted in a commercial operation...
I just spoke with someone at the American Dairy Council and a local dairy farmer who supplies fresh milk to some of our upscale outlets here in the Atlanta area . . . They both were very familiar and helpful with respect to HTST (High Tem. Short Time), with UHT . .(ultra high temp., and with low temp. pasteurization methods. Neither source had ever heard of ESL or this Extended shelf life concept using microbes etc. I'm going to stick with the low temp. pasteurization. The product is fresh, the dairy is just outside of Atlanta and the owner of the dairy sounds very knowledgeable.
In the US, while it is required to have all the ingredients of a product listed, I don't think it is mandatory to state what purpose all those ingredients serve. I have a can of the propellant-type whipped cream, and it says it contains carageenen but doesn't say what it is.
I think there are some companies do tell what all the ingredients are for, because I know I have seen it in parentheses after the technical name. It lends some credibility to the manufacturer, or so I think. There aren't many that do though.
I was at an upscale supermarket (Fresh Market, I think) where I saw a product that had different sections for US and European labeling. On the US side, it had only the technical names of all the different additives. On the European side, it would say something like "stabilizer E201". Since all the ingredients were listed in the same order, you could cross reference the different labels to see what the US additives were.
carageenan is a stabilizer...100%
Yup...you can even buy it online if you want it for home use.... :-[ guar gum and all those other additives, too.
Why?
I think you might need to be unstable... ;)
"carageenan is a stabilizer.."
What does it actually do? Is it a thickening agent? How about guar gum?
Quote from: Sailor Con Queso on April 22, 2010, 01:29:02 PM
"carageenan is a stabilizer.."
What does it actually do? Is it a thickening agent? How about guar gum?
guar gum: stabilizer too - in chocolate milk those two can be used to keep the coco powder from settling out to the bottom of the carton
stabilizer can be used in whipped cream to help the later formed whipped cream to stay whipped longer... it "stabilizes" it
stabilizers just help keep things from settling out generally -
Quote from: Sailor Con Queso on April 22, 2010, 01:29:02 PM
What does it actually do?
Both are physically long polysaccharides, that can wrap around and contain other macromolecules, keeping them in a colloidal suspension. In other words, what cheesehead said... they prevent stuff from separating.
I think you are right, Mark....you would need to be unstable yourself to buy them for home use ;D
I never could figure out why all that crap was needed to try to turn whipped cream into "cool whip".....people whip fresh cream (or the store equivilent) because they want something REAL....and all it takes is using powdered sugar instead of granulated to get a nice stable whip! (I won't allow "whipped topping" in my home.....or margarine...)
Yep, I'm a dairy snob! >:D I guess that is why we make our own cheeses, isn't it?
Any "whipped topping" "cheese product" "chocolate drink" type stuff is bad news. Where have the cooks gone?
"pasteurized processed cheese food" ...creepy. they have to let you know that it is intended to be a food... :P
It's like Velvetta. What is that stuff REALLY??? Kinda like the Spam of the cheese world. :P
My wife is hooked on Cool Whip "Lite". So how would you make a low fat natural whipped cream that doesn't destabilize quickly?
OTOH, some of these ingredients are being used by molecular gastronomists today...
Look up a vegan mouse recipe and consider using the ingredients you find there. I know it might sound bad, but they can be quite good.
Quote from: Sailor Con Queso on April 22, 2010, 07:17:23 PM
It's like Velvetta. What is that stuff REALLY??? Kinda like the Spam of the cheese world. :P
My wife is hooked on Cool Whip "Lite". So how would you make a low fat natural whipped cream that doesn't destabilize quickly?
Well, velveeta is pretty easy to make, not that easy to exactly duplicate because Kraft puts in their proprietary blend of extracts and flavorings. But in general, you take cheese, standardize it (water, milk, whey, whey powder, etc), heat it up, toss in some sodium phosphate, alginate, a sodium citrate to react with the alginate, and flavors and colors and resolidify after blending.
Cool whip isn't hard either, and it's similarly scary.
You take some water, blend in a sweetener that has some body to it, like corn syrup, and corn syrup that's been amylase-treated to make the glucose into fructose, then you need something to imitate the feeling of fats, so you partially solidify oils by bubbling some hydrogen through a good-tasting oil, like coconut oil. Mix that and you have this sludge that separates easily, so you need a few more things. One, you need an emulsifier. So add polysorbate and caseinate. Cool, it's mixed together, next problem is how to keep it bound up and how to be able to develop a froth (cool whip is mostly air), so you add a starch substitute like xanthan or guar gum. Carageenan isn't the preference here because the xanthan and guar combos complement each other. And then the last thing you need after you've emulsified and whipped it, is to keep it stable at room temp. So you suspend all that in a wax, like sorbitan.
And there you have it :P. "lite" just means fewer oils, or a different way to process the oils. You get less mouthfeel, feels less like a dairy product.
If you want to make it a dairy product, use cream instead of coconut oil, or just milk, and add everything for it to froth, be sweet, and stable at room temp.
Linux, the next time I am asked why I refuse to use cool whip or "what's wrong with it?".....I will show them your post!
Aww, c'mon, Frankenfood can be great!
Here, let me ask a random passerby, get their feelings on it.
Frau Blucher, ..."
Neeiigghh...
;D LOL!
ROLF!
LB - I read your post to Nancy and she said "DISGUSTING". We may have broken her Cool Whip habit. So... Is there a way to make a lower fat, lower calorie natural whipped cream without all the other additives?
Without all the additives? And you still want the mouthfeel of a full cream? Huh, you just want to give me a challenge tonight, eh? :)
I'm up for it; bring it. But, you will need a stabilizer, else it will fall flat too fast. Good news is that you can use gelatin as the stabilizer.
Take some gelatin, dissolve in water. Take some skim milk. It must be skim, best you can get, meaning the most whey proteins as possible. Milk has two dynamics by which it will form a hydrocolloid (foam), either above 10% fat, or below 3-4% fat. This happens by different mechanisms, end result is similar.
Anyway, take the dissolved gelatin, add it to the milk. Refrigerate if it's too warm. Then whip in a kitchenaid until it forms a stable foam. About the end of the soft peak stage, maybe a little more into early firm peaks. Add in some powdered sugar, vanilla, etc. If the mouthfeel is wrong, whip up a little full-fat cream and fold in the two together, carefully, so you don't collapse it.
Et la voila: low-fat whipped "cream" au linuxboy. C'est la cuisine formidable.
Hearts and kidneys are tinker toys!