Hi everyone, I'm Stacey from Louisiana, and I'm preparing to start my own cheese-making enterprise, but with a twist. You see, I'm a vegan, but I love cheese. The substitutes out there just don't cut it! They're like velveeta with better flavoring, and that's just not enough for me! So, I've decided to try my hand at cheese making, but with nut milks rather than animal milk. Have any of you ever tried this or even heard of anyone trying this? There's a company called Dr. Cow that makes nut cheeses, but I don't think their cheeses are hard. I want to try cheddar and blue cheese at the very least. They definitely don't have a blue cheese. Anyway, I've got bacteria and vegetable rennet, so unless someone out there has some tips for me, I'm going to just go for it and see!
Thanks!
Dr cow makes both types. They're just one style of cheese, really, with the flavor variation being from nut selection as opposed to culture and make differences.
They're not very complicated cheeses. Make a nut milk, acidify (dr cow uses acidophilus, likely vegan source not cultured in a dairy product), drain, press lightly, salt, and age. In the end you get this 4-5 ounce button that's sliceable and has cheese notes from the acidophilus breaking down.
Good for you for making an alternative cheese. They can be fun to make :). Not sure what FDA regs are around them, but as a non-dairy product, you don't have to follow PMO regs to distribute and sell.
You have to clarify what you mean by tips. What do you need? Recipes? Step-by-step guides? How much cheesemaking have you done?
Oh and welcome :)
Thanks for the welcome! I don't anticipate selling any of my cheeses, just sharing with fellow vegans. :)
As far as tips are concerned, I was wondering if anyone had any experience with certain nut/bacteria combinations. It looks like Dr. Cow uses acidophilus only, and no rennet. I was hoping to get a *real* hard cheese texture. Theirs aren't quite there.
My first project was a feta-like cheese from homemade peanut milk and some soy yogurt. It came out pretty well, but I really crave a good sharp cheddar! So far, that's the extent of my experience. Maybe I should try soft cheeses first?
I'm not vegan, but I've acidified with DVI culture before. You couldn't do that and use DVI culture because it has milk and whey products in it. You'd need to figure out a way to get vegan culture, and the only one I know of is the acidophilus. Although, I think there are other probiotics out there, and kefirs. You can try those. You can also reculture multiple generations from DVI and keep your own strain that has origins in non-vegan sources, but through successive generations, that should go away.
For an aged cheese, you need to create a milk profile that is high in fats. You couldn't easily do a rice milk cheese, for example, and I'm dubious about an almond milk cheese. You could use brazil nuts, hemp, macadamia, perhaps peanuts, hazelnuts (you should try making an aged chocolate hazelnut cheese... it's great), cashews, etc.
If you want a real, sliceable, hard cheese texture, you cannot do it using only the milk. You will need to use additives to stabilize, and emulsifiers to give it an even paste. Like Daiya does.
Using rennet to coagulate nut milk doesn't work. Nut milks have very different proteins, and multiple fraction types of them, which are comparable to the caseins in milk, but the caseins in milk are in micelles, whereas the proteins in nut milk are just proteins. So you would need another enzyme that works on those specific proteins. You may want to try some vegetable enzymes, such as papain. You can also try to solidify with salts, like you would for tofu. Calcium, magnesium salts work.
If you use an acid coagulation, it will give you a crumblier cheese. Sort of like a cream cheese that's solid and slices after aging and losing enough water.
Also, if you want something to taste like a cheddar, you can't get there with nut milk. You can get something that has aged cheese notes, but it will be different. You'll probably like it, but if you're hoping to replicate an artisan cheddar, I don't think it's possible.
Linuxboy,
I too am attempting to make a nut-based vegan cheddar. I made my own mesophilic starter, out of coconut/cashew/macadamia/brazil/hemp-buttermilk, and have purchased New England Cheese Company's organic vegetable rennet. Yesterday I attempted to do a macadamia/cashew cheese. It seemed to almost start to curd, but, I believe I cut it too early with no clean break, so it ended up soupy. Perhaps had I left it longer, it would have curdled? Nonetheless, I put it through the cheesecloth-lined colander, and it did separate. Only no curds, rather a matted mesh ... Waiting to salt and press it ... Tomorrow, I will attempt to make a cheddar from raw coconut milk ... But thankful I have found this forum ....
I'm interested in what you said about adding another enzyme, like salt (I have Himalayan Pink Salt -- would this be good?), to get the rennet to coagulate. How much salt would you use per gallon of milk? One tablespoon? Or would it need much more? You write as if you've made successful nut cheeses before, so, I turn to you in great hopes! Thanks
Let's distinguish enzymes from ionic-induced coagulation. Mg and other salts works on nut milks by disrupting the charge of protein complexes, bringing them out of equilibrium with the water. No himalayan salt would not work, you need something like magnesium chloride or sulfate. Use 1/2 tsp/gal, maybe a little more, of a mg salt. When I say salt, I don't mean sodium chloride. I'm just referring to the powder version, the crystalline compound of something like magnesium sulfate. Think tofu... anything that can be used for tofu should be able to coagulate nut milks.
In terms of the enzymes, try these: rennin (rennet), pepsin, and ficin. You should be able to get the last two from a specialty store. They have different specificity for proteins, so play around with small amounts of milks to see what the outcome is. I have done a few cheeses like this, but they're been primarily lactic acid coagulated.
Stacey and Brian welcome, looks like you are well looked after, great topic, have fun!
Wow, Linux ... Whew!
I just read your post tonight, after attempting my coconut cheddar(-ish) cheese. Suppose I should've waited to make it after knowing/understanding more ... Because, as I type, it's in the pot. And, although I had great hopes -- coconut milk is the THICKEST of all the nut milks I have made -- it has done far less coagulating than the last batch of macadamia/cheddar cheese I made (which is in the press now). It's giving no sign that it's going to separate/coagulate/get thick.
First, I made coconut milk, from the flesh of adult coconuts and the water of young Thai coconuts ... I blend these, then put them through my double-masticating juicer ... Makes a smooth, nice milk. I even added coconut "kefir" water to the mix, which is a fermented coconut water ... TASTED like it'd be perfect for cheese ... I then added salt to it all, after having read your previous post, assuming mg was in the cheese (Himalayan salt is what Dr. Cow uses, so figured it'd be ok) ...
Put my gallon of milk in the pot, and added my nut-buttermilk starter (2 oz). Let that sit at 86 degrees for about an hour; then added the diluted water-diluted organic veggie rennet, making sure it didn't go beyond 86-87 degrees for another hour.
It's seemed to liquify even more than originally, before adding the starter and rennet ...
WHEN in the process would you say to add the magnesium chloride/sulfate? Should that be added/blended into the milk? Or stirred in with the starter? Or should it be added to/with the rennet?
At this point, I added to the milk the closest thing I had to magnesium chloride in the house (a bone- supplement, with calcium and magnesium in it) ... I plan to let that sit, then stir some more water-diluted rennet in ... Hoping a miracle may bless my cheese ... How miserably do you foresee such a thing failing? ...
I apologize for being SUCH a newb!!! I want to make cheese from nuts (and coconuts), but recognize I'm going to spend a shitload of time and money discovering the best method, especially considering the learning curve I'll need to stride in the process ... Thanks for any and all clear advice you might offer!
QuoteSuppose I should've waited to make it after knowing/understanding more
You are dealing with very poorly documented science, so it is important to read and at least know the basics.
Quotecoconut milk is the THICKEST of all the nut milks I have made
Yes, because of the fat. What causes coagulation is the protein. So although it has a thick mouthfeel, the protein fraction is so low that anything other than acid/bacteria will likely not work.
QuoteI then added salt to it all, after having read your previous post, assuming mg was in the cheese (Himalayan salt is what Dr. Cow uses, so figured it'd be ok) ...
Dr cow uses himalayan salt after, to salt the cheese. Again, I was talking about something like nigari (magnesium chloride), used for tofu. And it only works on high protein milks, like soy.
Quote
WHEN in the process would you say to add the magnesium chloride/sulfate? Should that be added/blended into the milk? Or stirred in with the starter? Or should it be added to/with the rennet?
If you are using it, use it just like for tofu, in place of the coagulant (It IS the coagulant). The starter already needs to be in the milk before.
QuoteHow miserably do you foresee such a thing failing? ...
Almost 100%. Coconut has the wrong protein and fat balance. And its protein structures are suboptimal to work with MgCl.
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I apologize for being SUCH a newb!!! I want to make cheese from nuts (and coconuts), but recognize I'm going to spend a shitload of time and money discovering the best method, especially considering the learning curve I'll need to stride in the process ... Thanks for any and all clear advice you might offer!
Take it easy, slow, and use small quantities. Use one cup of milk split 4 ways and 3-4 coagulants and see which works.
The easiest way to do this is to make milk into yogurt, drain it, and form, like dr cow does. It's not animal milk, so it may not be the best idea to make everything like you do for animal milk.
Post your next concept before trying if you want commentary.
Thanks for all your great suggestions, Linux.
I'll definitely post concepts before making my next move, and will only experiment with CUPS verses GALLONS (as I have thus far).
Was thinking we should make another thread for this discussion, so others who might want to glean insight from it will find it easier (as the title to this thread is less than clear that it's about non-milk cheeses).
I'm still trying to make my pot of coconut milk (which, as you know, has been started with the mesophiic starter, then renneted, then bone-supplemented) into some curded situation.
Also having never made tofu, I looked up "how to" and found that adding diluted epsom salt curds soy milk. So, I added some to my bone-supplemented coconut milk. Am still waiting on the results.
A few questions remain, should you have any guidance to offer:
1. I'm attempting to keep these cheeses RAW (meaning under 118 degrees). However, the soymilk will curd, according to the info I found, at 180 or above. This is the temp when the epsom salt is to be added. Must I heat the coconut milk to this degree for curdling? Any idea?
2. Since coconuts don't have the right fat/protein balance, might adding vegan protein powder or soy lecithin to the coconut milk work? Would this perhaps bulk up the protein side of the milk equation?
(by the way, this coconut milk is about 1/4 brazil nut and 1/8 cashew ...)
Thanks again.
3.
Also, just started a new topic ... ("Vegan * Raw * non-milk cheeses")
John can move our posts to the new thread.
Quote
Also having never made tofu, I looked up "how to" and found that adding diluted epsom salt curds soy milk. So, I added some to my bone-supplemented coconut milk. Am still waiting on the results.
It won't work IMHO, proteins aren't right.
Quote
1. I'm attempting to keep these cheeses RAW (meaning under 118 degrees). However, the soymilk will curd, according to the info I found, at 180 or above. This is the temp when the epsom salt is to be added. Must I heat the coconut milk to this degree for curdling? Any idea?
No, not true, it will coagulate below 180F. The reason most recipes specify that is to denature both isoflavones and tripsin antagonists. Basically, raw soybeans are not good for you. Try heating the mix you have to see if the protein will precipitate out the solids. Not sure. But by itself, I don't think epsom salt will work with coconut milk even if you heat.
Quote
2. Since coconuts don't have the right fat/protein balance, might adding vegan protein powder or soy lecithin to the coconut milk work? Would this perhaps bulk up the protein side of the milk equation?
what's the vegan protein made of? Which source? Lethicin is an emulsifier, not exactly the right application here. You could try a proper hydrocolloid like xanthan or a combo of xanthan and carageenan, but honestly, IMHO stick with the basic, tried and true method of coagulating with bacteria that form acid and also increase viscosity.
Linux,
Regarding that "tried and true method": What specific bacteria form acid and increase viscosity? Magnesium Chloride (nigri)? I looked for this at Whole Foods today and they didn't have it ... Know where I can purchase it?
Strains of Streptococcus thermophilus, and on the meso side, lactococcus lactis, and leuconostoc mesenteroides are used for viscosity, and for acid, it's hard to beat acidophilus and bulgaricus on the thermo side and the classic lactococcus blends on the meso side.
You can use epsom salt in testing for coagulation. They're not the same, but if one will coagulate, so should the other. Otherwise, nigari is sold in Japnese stores, or online.
Quote from: briandavis0 on January 14, 2011, 12:59:15 AM
Linux,
Regarding that "tried and true method": What specific bacteria form acid and increase viscosity? Magnesium Chloride (nigri)?
Hi Brian. Just to clarify what LB has already said. Magnesium Chloride, also called Nigari in Japanese, is a coagulant, used in making Japanese style Tofu. Coagulants generally do not form acid. Acid forming is reserved to bacteria in starter cultures, that he listed for you in the post just above. Also, as he mentioned, there is another coagulant you can use called Calcium Sulfate, sometimes called Gypsum. I believe it is used to make Chinese style Dofu/Tofu.
Linux and Kosher Baker,
Thanks!
Just a few clarifications:
1. Are the bacterial strains you mention (lactococcus lactis & leuconostoc mesenteroides and the "classic lactococcus blends") derived from non-dairy sources? From the sounds of their names, it appears as though there is some lactose in them! ... I ask merely as I am trying to make a purely vegan cheese.
2. From the little understanding I have of cultures, I assumed my cultured vegan buttermilk would work as a mesophilic starter. Perhaps it is not, and I thus need to use the strains you mention. Assuming that these cultures are vegan, would I add them to the cultured buttermilk starter I've already made? Or would I add at the same time as I add that starter (prior to adding the rennet/coagulant) to the milk? Or would I add it INSTEAD of my homemade vegan starter?
3. Assuming that these cultures are vegan, and to be added to the milk initially as a starter, would I then add the Nigari and/or Gypsum, INSTEAD OF or WITH organic vegetable rennet, after allowing the starter to set? Or is this where I might need to experiment?
4. Regarding the epsom salt: would I only use this to TEST for coagulation -- say, if I don't know IF a certain nut/seed/coconut milk will coagulate at all, would I use it to discover whether it's even possible, then proceed?
Again, I can't thank you enough. The coconut attempt was a meshy, messy blob ... Tastes really good, but is taking forever to drain ... At present, it's in cheesecloth and fine mesh strainer ... I'll wait til tomorrow to see if it drains dry enough to press ...
The macadamia/cashew "cheddar" I made before (which ALMOST curded) pressed nicely and is now air-drying ... Waiting to wax and age it ...
QuoteAre the bacterial strains you mention (lactococcus lactis & leuconostoc mesenteroides and the "classic lactococcus blends") derived from non-dairy sources?
Call up Danisco and/or Chris Hansen, or Abiasa and ask what their culture media is. They do use whey powder and skim milk a lot.
Quotecultured vegan buttermilk would work as a mesophilic starter.
yes, should, but strains are important in the bacteria world. They have different properties. You're not only trying to acidify, but also build body and flavor. If you can't get a variety of options, use what you can.
Quotewould I add them to the cultured buttermilk starter I've already made?
Use them in place of starter. They are a starter. Or in combination. Again, any bacteria can acidiy, and specific strains are used for building body and flavor.
QuoteNigari and/or Gypsum, INSTEAD OF or WITH organic vegetable rennet, after allowing the starter to set? Or is this where I might need to experiment?
There are three ways to coagulate milk. One, by precipitating the proteins by changing the ionic balance (adding calcium/magnesium salts). Two, by acidifying to where the charge of the proteins changes. bringing them out of solution. And three, by enzymatic action. You can use one or more means to get to where you want. They can often be used together. For example, enzymes are more active at lower pH levels. rennet is typically most active at 5.5, for example.
Quote
4. Regarding the epsom salt: would I only use this to TEST for coagulation -- say, if I don't know IF a certain nut/seed/coconut milk will coagulate at all, would I use it to discover whether it's even possible, then proceed?
Yes, point is to not waste the milk.
Hi Brian i've also tried to make cheese with coconut milk. I've used mesophilic culture and rennet but it didn't worked at all.
I am posting on this after a decade of this conversation. I hope there will be a way to make vegan cheese from coconut up to untill now. Can you guide me would it be possible and how to do that
Hi Hafsa. Unfortunately, it can not be done.
Cheese is made from casein protein that is in milk. Only animal milk has casein in it.
Even when you make "yogurt" with vegetable milks, it doesn't thicken like animal milk. Instead you have to use a special bacteria that makes the yogurt thick from carbohydrates (complex sugars), rather than protein.
Tofu is made similarly to cheese, but again the protein is completely different and it works very differently.
The flavor in cheese comes from the way that the casein protein breaks down as the cheese ages. Other proteins have *completely* different flavors. Even if you make something that looks like cheese using a vegetable milk, it will never taste like cheese because there is no casein.
You can buy vegetable casein made in a lab, but I've never heard of anyone making cheese from it. I think it's basically impossible right now. Maybe something in the far future?
Some people make "vegan cheese" using nut butters or nut tofu. The most common that I've heard of is cashew nut butter "cheese" or cashew nut tofu "cheese". These can have a nice texture. You can even grow mold on the outside so that it looks like cheese. However, it does not taste like cheese, or have the texture of cheese.
Basically, cheese is make from animal milk casein and there is no way to make that using vegetables right now.
Oh that's something terrible to know that.
What i was thinking that cheese is basically the coagulation of protein. As far we were using animal milk so we have a way to coagulate animal milk protein that is casein and rennet enzyme are what cause casein protein to cheese.
If it is so, then there must be a way to coagulate plant protein. As there is albumin and globulin proteins, what can we use to coagulate them?
Again of course it won't give same flavour or texture, stick to the basic principle of cheese, what can i use for "other protein" to work it like a cheese with might be a difference of flavor
I was vegan for 10 years of my life and I made tofu for a lot of that time. I love tofu (and especially "yuba", which is the Japanese name for a kind of soy milk skin that forms when you simmer soy milk). There are so many amazing tofus too: peanut tofu and sesame seed tofu are *amazing*!
I also make miso, which is fermented soy/wheat/rice into a salty fermented paste. It's not like cheese really, but it is an intense and really wonderful flavor and there are many, many amazing miso dishes in Japanese cuisine. In Chinese cuisine there are many other similar fermented products. I don't know how to spell it, but fermented black beans are really similar.
There are types of fermented tofu as well (so called stinky tofu). And there are things like tempeh.
None of these taste like cheese. None of them have the texture of cheese. None of them are cheese. It doesn't make them bad.
You can't make cheese without animal milk. If you try to makes something like cheese with vegetable protein, it might be OK, but it will never be great. Many countries have fermented foods that they have made for thousands of years. In my opinion, as someone who *loves* those foods, I think you should pursue and learn about them and not about cheese. Don't waste your time on a bad substitute. Eat amazing food.
Please note that vegetable rennet refers to the source of the enzyme...NOT the use. It coagulates animal milk casein, NOT vegan milk proteins. While the proteins and amino acid concentrations in animal milk whey and vegan milks are different, they are coagulated via similar means...heat, acidity, metal salts ranging from regular table salt to Gypsum, nigari, Epsom salt or GDL (glucono-delta-lactone which forms a mild organic acid when it dissolves).
Don't, like many Internet users, think of these as different coagulants, Heat, acidity & metal salts coagulate via different means and the way to get the highest yield and firmest curds is to use all 3 means...plus GDL which forms a sort of protein gel.
Also, don't confuse cheese-making with solidifying protein via hydrolyzing (cooking) starch to make liquid milk solid. Cheese, by definition, is coagulated milk protein, whether of animal or vegetable origin. Hence, what we call real tofu is cheese by that definition...again, similar to animal milk whey cheese, like ricotta.
When you solidify milk with starch that is cooked to form a gel, or by adding a gelling hydrocolloid ingredient like carrageenan, agar, pectin or true gelatin, you are making what is referred to as Burmese Tofu, but that is a misnomer: It is, by definition, "pudding". Don't presume that all pudding is sweet: Outside of the USA, pudding can be sweet or savory. By the same token, don't presume that something is not cheese if it does not melt & stretch when heated. Only casein cheeses do that...whey cheeses melt only slightly, if at all.
A few other misconceptions: Since tofu is true cheese, adding one of the above gelling agents will produce a less crumbly solid. But, these gels are defined as "brittle". They break when stretched, like Jello, though they do melt. To get a stretchy gel like casein cheese, you need to take advantage of the synergy that occurs by mixing hydrocolloids: Agar plus pectin; guar & xanthan gums; guar & konjac gums; xanthan & locust bean gums or carrageenan. Unlike the majority of online began cheese recipes, which use potato starch or tapioca, using these synergistic gum combos create a low carb, keto friendly product. Those "vegan cheese" recipes do not. If you took animal milk and solidified it with tapioca, and tried to sell it as "cheese" you'd be arrested. Again, that's pudding, not cheese.
One last misconception: Both guar & xanthan gums, individually, are thickeners.They increase viscosity, but don't actually gel unless combined, as above. Oh yeah...one last thing: Konjac gum & an alkali also makes a gel, but it is not reversible with heat, and thank goodness because that gel is Shiritaki noodles...which we obviously don't want to melt upon heating!