I recently found a "mobile co-op" that delivers raw cow, goats and sheep's milk from local farmers right to my front door. Yesterday the milk brought 2.5 gallons of the creamy goodness. I drunk one glass and figured that the safest thing to do was to make a Tomme for 60+ days aging. I made plenty of cheeses from non-homogenized milk, but this would be my very first raw milk cheese. Since this is not labeled and I think it's from mixed herds, I am slightly on a listeria-hysteria. Now I want to see if anyone has an advice about aging and rinding it nicely.
The recipe I used is based loosely on Linuxboy's recipe from a few months back which I have used and changed over time. I wanted to repeat a previous success: "drunken cow" Tomme de Syrah cheese; a simple Tomme brined twice in Syrah wine with 18% salt, but I also wanted to introduce some aromatic cultures that will bring the character of the raw milk forward, so in my recipe I mixed Geo, Cylindrocarpon, Yeast and B.Linens. The cheese is now in the press and I must decide what to do with it next. I can let these cultures grow wild or oil rub, or wash the cheese, or salt rub it/brush it. Or, I can deep it in wine or beer with salt and vaccum it, expecting the cultures to die off. Or any combinations of the above. Does anyone have a good suggestion for me? I have about 12 hours before it goes off the press. This is what I've done so far:
• Warm 2.5 (minus that one glass:) ) gallons raw milk to 90F
• Add:
o 1/4 tsp MA4002
o 1/8 tsp Geo 15
o 1/8 tsp Mycodore (cylindrocarpon)
o 1/8 tsp KL 71 (yeast)
o 1/8 tsp SR3 (B.Linen)
• Ripen 25 min
• Add 1/4+1/8 tsp liquid animal rennet diluted in 1/4 cup filtered water
• Flocculation occurred in 20Min, I did X3 (60 minute from rennet total)
• beautiful perfect curd! Cut into 1/4 inch cubes, let rest 5 min (room was 80F so curd remained 87F, perfect curd)
• Wash curd by removing 1/3 of the whey (keep whey for later) and replacing it with 135F water. Add more water every 5 minutes and remove another 1/3 of the whey when it feels full or not heating fast enough. Mix curds with hand when pouring water to help them drain and shrink, to avoid matting and to avoid scolding from warm water. Target is 99F within 35 minutes.
• Drained into colander lined with cloth that was pre-washed in warm whey, Let curds mat a few minutes.
• Moved with cheesecloth to 7.5" Tomme Mold. press lightly with the follower under warm whey (reserved from earlier) for 5 min.
• Remove from whey, wait 10 more min, turn and redress.
• Press at 5Lbs. 30 min. Turn and redress, press at 10Lbs 1 hour, turn and redress at 10Lbs 12 hours
And then what? Anyone?
Sounds fantastic. Your make seems perfect to me. You should hit the acidity development targets right around your projection at 12 hours.
Your complex rind mix has these characteristics
- Complex aroma, mild proteolytic and lypolitic (geo 15), and fast rind acid neutralization
- Cascaded mold development where KL and geo start growing first right out of the mold, followed by b linens about a week out of the mold, then cylindrocarpon shortly after b linens. This timing is important because you can decrease and increase the activities of all of them by adjusting temp, salt brine level, and humidity level.
Here's what they like (from my experience, I haven't done enough research on this to know the exact thresholds):
- geo 15. Temp 55-65, salt content under 5-7%, humidity around 88-90%
- cylindrocarpon. Temp 55-65, salt content 1-2% max, humidity same, 90%
- KL. About same as geo. I've never done a KL-only rind. Always used it to help bring out straw characteristics.
- b linens. Likes 50-65F, tolerates salt up to 12-15%, likes high humidity above 90%
At this point, you have to pick which overall style you want to do:
- Do you want to develop a complex smear rind where the b linens dominates? If so, dunk the cheese, drown out everything but the b linens, and make a very complex b linens smear cheese. Dunk in beer or something with flavor if you want. Salt levels help with killing off other growth once you get it to a point you like. Age in high humidity.
- Do you want to develop a straight complex rind, with lots of color and character? Let it grow out unchecked for 7-10 days at 90-92% RH (watch this, can't be too high, circulate the air), then start either brushing it back or washing with a basic concentrated salt wash designed to kill the geo. High brine % also retards the linens growth, and then drop humidity again to slow down and kill off the b linens, and just brush to build up the exterior of the rind, letting it dry out a little and naturally die off.
- Do you want the rind to be thinner, just adding all sorts of flavor and aroma nuances that bring out the natural excellence of the milk? Then let the molds build up to just enough where they're covering everything, and then start brushing back and washing with a moderate salt concentration so you slow down the growth enough that the rind is thin, but that the rind flora continues to develop and add character. Then after 3-4 weeks, rind should be stable, can move to just brushing.
Other options out there. What are you trying to accomplish?
[edit] I think this is a good opportunity for me to go through make notes and books and try to figure out the exact environments each of these molds and yeasts like. I've never seen that anywhere else, would be helpful. Maybe I can fix my initial numbers above if they're off. Francois, anyone else who has done complex rinds, if you see this, can you please help?
Hey congrats on the milk and delivery! What a deal. Your recipe look good you should be very happy with this. Once you get to know your milkman/maid you may feel more confident about this new gold mine. Have fun yo will be surprised at the differences in raw milk cheese.
Raw milk is very similar to Nirvana (no, not the rock band). Let us know how it turns out!
LOL No not the rock band!
Brie - why Nirvana? Does it smell like teen spirit? >:D
Debi - thanks! That's very reassuring. NY by the way is one of the states that allows this, so raw milk is tested and supervised to a set public health standard. A co-op on wheels though still seems like some questionable arrangement... But who can resist home delivery of raw sheep(!!!), cow, and goat milk?
Linuxboy - what an answer! So detailed! Lately I have been playing with changing the temp/salt/humidity conditions of other cheeses in order to activate and deactivate specific molds at specific times. Usually the cheese responds to my requests like magic. (I do find that more salt and less humidity turns on the b.linen). I am totally new to Mycodore (cylindrocarpon) though. I used the yeast for two reasons: One is to prepare the surface pH for the B.Linen and help it grow. The other is to release aromatic gas as it dies off in the paste, which gives the cheese interesting character.
From these many options, it seems that my next step should be dunk it (not sure in what though, simple brine? wine brine? Beer brine, Brandy brine? I have to saturate the dunk with salt to get flavor, kill pathogens and help the future B.Linen growth).
And then? Just let it grow wild for a week and brush for a month? In your opinion, if I brine it in wine/beer/brandy and then vacuum it, will all of the special elements of these cultures get lost and never develop? (yes, I realize there will be no rind if I do that). ooohh... I only have a few hours to decide about the brine...
Well what do you want to make? Smear rind that's smelly and complex but doesn't take away from the cheese? Regardless, you need to salt that cheese so put it in 18-20% regular brine and let it salt the inside or it won't age properly.
from there pick what you want to do.
I really like thick rinds of crazy colors that give the past lots of character. But realistically I seem to do something wrong. I don't know if I brush them too early, too late, to hard or too soft, if my bacteria is dead when I wash them or if I leave them too wet or dry. I get rind that is mostly thin with lots of dry paste beneath it instead of proper rind with soft paste all the way.
The "drunken cow" was probably my best cheese to date and that was because I brined it in wine and never bothered dealing with the rind as it was vacuumed. I made this new cheese thinking I can always repeat the success of that drunken cow, but what I *really* want it some crazy rind like a Reblochon, Tomme de Savoie or Tomme Crayeuse with a semi-soft cheese under it that is neither flaky, not brittle, chalky or dry. I expect a rather flat 1.75"x7.5" disk that is about 2.2 Lbs
Oh, then you need a proper aging room and a thicker cheese, like a 5" tall by 7.5. With a thin disk, it dries out too much unless you do crazy things with humidity, but then the rind doesn't form well. Sorry :(
Best bet with this one is to use it as an experiment and try to prove me wrong. To get a savoie rind, you let it grow and brush it back, keeping humidity at 85-88. But you start with 90-92.
I have a cave (wine cooler where I age most of my cheese) and I can keep the humidity up with an aging container, so I am set for that. Should I keep humidity up so high all the way through aging?
The thing is, rind should grow in the outside and not bite the inside, so even if I can do rind that's half the height ot Tomme de Savoie and keep the cheese from drying I will be happy.
Right now I am thinking:
1. Brine in beer or Calvados, 18% saturated salt, 3 hours per side per Lb. Dry off for 2-3 days
2. Repeat brining with new brine. Dry off for another 3 days.
3. Age in container at 55F/90%RH and let grow wild rind
4. vigorous brushing begins 7-10 days through, regardless if I see mold or not (so I can evenly distribute the bacteria and "injure" the rind for re-growth). Repeat brushing every two days until covered and looks nice but not to stop before the 30th day. Then let grow wild and keep an eye with occasional brushing (won't be as moist anymore so the growth will be slow).
If I see that it gets too dry and hard too early, I will close in vacuum and then open it to let it re-rind between day 60 and 75
What do you think of this as a plan?
DANGER, DANGER!
Brining in beer is asking for a yeast problem. I have done it in the past and it's critical that you drop your pH to match the cheese and add CaCl. Once it's out of the brine be sure to dry it well before it goes into the cave for aging. It's very, very easy to get a mushy slop rind when using any sort of high sugar liquid as a brine. Once it starts it's very hard to stop. I can't stress that enough.
If it were me I'd:
1. dry salt it
2. Dunk the wheel in a 3% solution with your ripening culture added (with some geo13 thrown in for rind protection) once per day for 3 days.
3. Wipe the whell down once a week with the 3% until you get good growth happening.
4. Don't touch it, let it go nuts for a few weeks before you brush it back. Brushing early in a rind's life tends to lead to a rind that is dominated by a single species.
Or just ignore me and experiment...good luck.
All sorts of crazy rind adventures later, I like to do similar to Francois for a normal, non-smear rustic rind. I don't like to use any type of flavored brine or wash until later after the molds have formed a crust. My rind ripening cascade goes like this
- take cheese out of brine (18-22% salt brine). I usually make a fresh batch because salt is cheap, and adjust pH and calcium.
- Make up brine with culture mix, 3%
- Dunk cheese for 2-5 days, 1x a day. Depends on culture mix type.
- After that get a rag and take the brine and rub down the wheel
- Let it all build up so there's a heavy growth. temp 55, humidity 90-92
- Move to 85-88 humidity, and then start washing with whatever flavored wash you want. If using my homebrew beer, I like to boil it. At this point, the wash is to knock back some of the mold layer and solidify it so it forms a crust barrier on top of the cheese.
By my comment earlier about a proper aging room, I meant that with a large room where there's a lot of cheese, you get less fluctuation, so the mold colonies can adjust and follow more predictable growth patterns. By the size of the wheel, I meant that in a bigger wheel, you can afford to age at a lower humidity because over time, that moisture stabilized, and you get a good cheese paste without hardening around the rind. Some things happen more easily on a commercial scale, and aging for natural rinds is one of them.
Thank you guys!
First off, I ALWAYS use CalCl in brine and usually a bit of vinegar.
Secondly, the beer I am using is a fantastic local ale that is very un-sugary (and of course I understand that there couldn't be an ale without sugars). It's earthy and grassy (I tried belgian ales before and they were way too sweet). When I did my "drunken cow" cheese, I began by brining it twice in Syrah. It dictated a strong and wonderful character for the cheese and matured beautifully. On previous attempts, washing with wine after the rind was done didn't instill too much wine character into the cheese, so I feel as if the first layer should be the ale and then let everything grow wild through it. Does this make sense?
Fancois - yes. I planned on diluting the beer with water until it matches the cheese pH.
- This cheese already have KL 71 yeast planted in it. Do you think that a pH balanced/diluted beer will still destroy it? (I can add all the cultures, salt and CalCl into the beer directly)
- Also, I used Geo 15 when I made it, shouldn't I use the same in the dunk? (I have both 15 and 13 available).
- Too late to hand salt - already in brine for a few hours...
- How do you do this dunking? Just deep it in, take it out to dry and that's it? Can I re-use the dunk (on the same cheese for all 3-5 dunk sessions)
Linuxboy, thanks, these are good RH/Temp guidelines and you seem to be in line generally with Fancois.
How about:
- take cheese out of brine, rest and dry for 2-3 days
- dunk cheese in [WHAT?] for 3 days
- Wipe the wheel daily until I get good growth. Maintain is in 55F/90%RH
- let it go crazy, brush later every couple of days. Leave it alone for the remaining of the aging period (occasional brushing if needed)
What do you guys think? I love these community-generated cheeses. It makes it so much more fun than doing it alone.
I still fail to see the point of brining in a flavour. It's like smoking a young cheese, you lose the flavour over time. If you want intense flavour give it a good float for a day in full strength beer/wine after the rind has established. That is how drunken cheeses are done commercialy, they are allowed to age first then floated. This minimizes rind problems.
Just to clarify, when I dunk and wash it's with just one solution. I mix it up once and keep it till the cheese is done. Yes, I really do just dunk the wheel in the solution and then rub it a bit by hand to get it good and wet with a smoothed surface, this will get the b. linens going like crazy. I've never much cared for geo 15 or 17, flavour and texture wise. I prefer 13 plus it quickly grows, so it's a good rind protectant. It won't hurt to add it to the wash, if the conditions are right it will grow and possibly keep some yeasts at bay.
Thanks Francois. It's good to have someone like you who really know his stuff, I am still new to Tommes.
The last time I did it I left it in wine, dried it, repeated then vacuumed for 2 months., it was terrific and winey. There wasn't much of a rind or character of the milk but the milk and wine are from the same area and it was a nice terroir experiment...
I understand what you are saying: basically develop rind, protection character first, then add the beer, marc or whatever to it, only after it is well established. Did I get you right?
So now I should just dunk it for a couple of minutes, rub it and then let it dry on the board for a day or two. Repeat 3 times. Correct?
- The brine will be 3% kosher salt by weight, added CalCl, KL71 (yeast), Geo (13), Cylindrocarpon, B.Linen. I will make it 12 hours in advance and let it work in room temp before dunking. Sounds right?
- - Should I add a bit of vinegar or not?
- - - I assume that 1/16th teaspoon of any of these cultures will be enough for 1.5L worth of dunk brine?
- - - - Can I re-use the same brine for all 3 dunks? (refrigerate in between, bring to room temp before re-dunking)
Then, just let it grow wild and brush when it's covered
Thanks for helping me go from such general idea to a pinpoint procedure. This REALLY helps!
Vacuum sealing is altogether different. You could float when young then dry well and seal. If all goes well the vacuum will protect things.
I make up one bucket of solution and use it till the batch of cheese is done. I just snap a lid on and keep it in the cooler with the cheese.
A bit of acid in fresh brine never hurts. Don't worry about rehydration before hand as you'll be using the same solution over and over again. The dunk I do is literally that, dunk then rub and back on it's rack. I only do it to get the yeast going, sometimes it only takes one dunk. Once you see white growing then I just give it an infrequent wipe till things are really cooking with gas, then I let it go. I don't bother drying it between dunks, sort of defeats the purpose of the dunk. I'll be interested to see how it turns out.
OK, I made the "dunk" by using 500Ml filtered water, added 3% salt by weight, then 1/8 tsp CalCl2, 1/16 tsp yeast, 1/16 tsp B.Linen, 1/16 tsp Geo and 1/16 tsp cylindrocarpon. I am now letting it develop in room temp for 12 hours.
Can you guys confirm my instructions from the previous message? do I just dunk it in-and-out of the thing and then let it dry? or do I live it in for a while?
Can I re-use the same dunk for the next 2-3 dunkings?
Just dunk to let the liquid coat everything and take out. No need to soak, it wouldn't really do anything except maybe soften the rind a little, and you don't want to do that.
Use the same liquid until it's too smelly to stand. And keep the bucket in the fridge or cave if you can at all because you don't want it getting too smelly too fast.
I reuse the solution for several batches until it goes bad.
Thanks linuxboy! The question about reusing the dunk was related to something I read about not putting your cloth back in the wash which you intend to reuse when you wash rind as it may contaminate it and listeria can grow in it which will infect your cheese on the next wash. I will do 4 days of wash and let rest and dry in the cave at 55F
Thanks for this thread. Great info here.
Here is a picture of my 3rd tomme, 2 gal cow:1 gal sheep milk. I cut this cheese at 62 days. I was pretty much in the dark about the whole washing process (still not exactly crystal clear about what I'm trying to accomplish). This cheese is delicious but I'm thinking it could be a bit softer.
Without going off on too much of a tangent, I'd be grateful for some guidance on the "building" of a rind on the softer cheeses, i.e., muenster, tallegio and reblochon. I've made a few of these that were edible, but seem to have issues with wet or sticky rinds and some instances of slip skin. This makes it difficult to "wash". I'm wondering if I'm not getting enough moisture out of my cheese to begin with.
Any tips welcome.
Yes, I agree, there is so much to learn and I am not sure what I am doing right or wrong either. I too LOVE the washed rind cheeses that has soft paste (Morbier, Tallagio, Reblochon Etc.) but I have been messing them up; either the rind is too thin and followed by a few mm of dry paste before you get to the good stuff, or it takes so long to build it that the paste gets too dry. From some reason no one can give me a straight answer such as "make the cheese, keep is in 90% RD at 55F for one week, then every two days rub bacterial wash on it, wipe it dry and brush it lightly"). I now have Reblochons aging at week two. The Geo just started showing up but I don't know that this cheese will ever get enough rind to start making a moist paste inside before too much humidity is lost (I do age it at about 85% RH/55F) - just clueless so a lot more milk will get lost before I get answers.
One thing that I do find helpful is videos. I find a lot of little clips of traditional cheesemaking in farms in Europe on YouTube. I also have a few episodes of the great Australian series 'Cheese Slices'. what you see there in factories and farms all over the world give you a really great idea of how tough you can be on curd, how they measure pH and salinity, how they mold and press cheeses correctly and the affinage process. Getting the right formula is still difficult. I will share whatever I find...
As for cheese that is too hard, chalky or flaky - I think that happens in the vat. Watch the curd cutting and acidification levels of the milk. I began experimenting in techniques to prevent it a few weeks ago. Let's see how the new batches come out.
Great thread. As Linuxboy said, to create a rind like Tomme de Savoie or Tomme de Craueuse, you need a proper aging room which in my experience means a room with a wealth of microorganisms. I think this is hard to rercreate in a wine cooler or converted refrigerator. I have only managed to grow wild rinds like this in our basement in upstate New York. It's a half-basement with a dirt floor, natural stones walls and a wooden ceiling. Below a link to some rind results. Please disregard the accompanied writing, this was when I first started out and I was just guessing.
http://heinennellie.blogspot.com/2008/08/tommes-upstate-continued.html (http://heinennellie.blogspot.com/2008/08/tommes-upstate-continued.html)
In regards to a reblochon type of rind, brevibacterium linens like a fair amount of fresh air. In general, the air in wine coolers and refrigerators is rather stagnant.
Last winter I tried to make a cheese resembling epoisses. For the longest time I could not get the b linens to grow. Once I moved the cheeses from the converted refrigerator to the cave, they took off. It was an air flow problem.
Thanks IRF and Jos. I usually get the B. linens going OK, but end up with a too wet rind.
Jos, love your coolbot set-up. Here in Colorado lack of humidity is a real problem, so a cave situation without some humidity addition doesn't work.
Also, those cheeses on your cheese board look mighty fine!
Pam
wow Oude, awesome blog!
Thanks Jos, yes, I am working on improving the conditions for the aging. I still think my technique lacks more than my aging conditions. But then again, one of the great thing about this town is that so much of it is in dingy undergrounds... I am working on finding a proper cave also for my commercial experiment. I know that you know where I live and yes, the brick and concrete basements there are for rent. In the meantime though, any suggestions on how to make this work better?
Hello OK good to see you again. Glad you posted a new link I lost my old computer files and lost the link. I Enjoy reading you blog.
So... it's been almost 30 days:
- I dunked the cheese in bacterial brine over the first 5 days
- Cheese remained at my 60F cave in a very damp aging container (I assume 75%-90%RH) where there is little air flow (I wish I had a container that leaves more air).
- Wild mold is growing steadily. Through the white Geo and slight yellow B.Linen effect, you can now notice the brown spotting of the Mycodore spreading from the center. From some reason though, it seems that the side of the cheese is lagging 2 weeks behind in mold development
- I felt it was covered enough for me to brush it, so I brushed it a couple of times in the past week to help the sides grow faster.
So now what? Beer treatment? (And if so, wash daily for a while? Dunk 3-5 times 2 days apart?) Wait? Salt? Here it is (this photo is taken immediately AFTER brushing so you can't really tell the wildness of the mold):
Anyone?
Traditionally, the way it's done is that after you've built up the rind flora, you just leave it alone and brush it back once in a while so it's not too thick.
What are you after? Why do you want to wash or salt? IMHO, beer works okay for a smear rind, or to knock back penicillium growth. As a wash for a rind like that, the whole cheese winds up tasting yeasty, and that's an acquired taste. Sort of like someone spread vegemite on it.
Might be late on this one but I just took pictures a few days ago. I found these nice rectangular juice pitchers at WalMart I was going to cut into loaf molds but on a whim I used them for aging my reblochons and they worked beautifully. The little door works well for adjusting air flow. I got them 2/$5 this winter but now they ar $4 each. These are two reblochons molded in the little 450 gram kadovas May 14th.
Thamk you guys!
I originally started this wanting to re-do my 'Drunken cow' success (Tomme de Syrah) which was made in vacuum for 65 days. This is where the beer wash idea came from, but looking at this mushrommy dusty smelling thing brings back the feeling of Tomme Crayeuse (except theu also use some ridiculous glowing green mold - no idea what it is). So being that this is the first raw milk Tomme I've ever made, I am going to respect the milk and let it grow wild. Linuxboy's opinion is kind of the same as the email I just got from Jos (Oude Kaas). He also commented about raising the humidity. I am thinking of lining up the aging container with hay to enhance the micro-organism's growth and ambient humidity. Thank you guys for this!
Debi... maybe then you can be the first to reply to my Reblochon question thread from 2 days ago? https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,4291.0.html (https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,4291.0.html) - Your color reassures me that I may be doing the right thing after all. How long do you age them for? What do they smell like at this point? (Yours are a week older than my current batch)
Okay, day 70 was time to crack it open. The cheese looked rather hard and dry so I wanted to cut into it ASAP fearing that it is getting dry. It smelled like mushrooms and earth with no hint of cheese.
Boy, was I surprised to find a very moist cheese under the thin rind. In total contrast to the rind, the paste smelled cheesy (Cheddar, Comte, Gruyere, Gouda) and with no hint of the rind's mushroominess. I suppose that in spite of the thinness of the rind, it was dense enough to keep the moisture locked in, yet too thin to give the cheese its character. Flavor-wise it closer to a vacuum-aged Cheddar than to a Tomme de Savoie. A bit salty and none of that heavy mushroom character you can smell so well in the rind (Mycodore). The texture was flexible with random medium-small eyes. Well, at least I finally made a proper Tomme that isn't flaky/chalky. Yay!
The rind was my fear from day one (as you can see from previous posts). I have inoculated Mycodore, B.Linen and Yeast into the milk. I have taken several dip-and-dry sessions in bacterial brine on the first week. I kept it in a moist and aired conditions and around 55F. I waited and waited for that wild mold but it hardly came and remained largely unchanged since about day 25. Cave conditions? Cow's feed? Or maybe, my initial hunch to wash or rub with ale, wine, coffee grounds or even balsamic was good after all?
I suppose I expected raw milk to give me interesting characteristics from enzymes that would not exist in pasteurized milk but I got less character than my pasteurized Tommes which I find shocking. Don't get me wrong, this is a good basic cheese and would serve me well in sandwiches (melts well too!). It is just too laborious and costly to make for something that lacks enough character to make it to a cheese plate.
Here are the photos. Forensic opinion anyone?
The pastes looks very tastey but wasn't? I ind a lot of the french cheese costly for what they give you - especially if you don't like the rind, like me.
It wasn't un-tasty, it just lacked the character I expected from a raw milk Tomme with wild rind of B.Linen, Geo and Cylindrocarpon. One doesn't need to eat or like the rind in order to appreciate the flavor and aroma it gives the paste. Without it I feel that the taste is too generic and unexciting. It seems that every cheese I really love has a good rind around it... I must learn the art of rinding...
True sometimes the rind makes the cheese. Maybe a bit more aging?
irf, I was browsing around and found this thread of yours. Just wanted to say how much I appreciate the detailed sensory impression you gave of this cheese effort! I am loving this board, especially for all of the specifc and useful technical feedback (with only RC's book in hand I would not be, say, using the right amount of weight, pressing under whey, trying a washed rind). But I often wish that folks would be more descriptive of how their cheeses taste!
Your description above gave me an excellent picture of how this cheese turned out, and pinpointed exactly what you thought worked and did not taste-wise. Bravo! I hope to see more of the same from folks here.
Oh, Brandnetel! Thank you, ...you make me blush here ::)
I think that the issue is that not everyone like to blabber in the middle of the night about cheese like I do...
You know, a while back there was a bit of a Crottin madness going on around here. People clued in that this was a simple abundant cheese that is well liked, popular and should be easy to make. There were a million suggestions, recipes, success and failure stories here. Most of them were from people who never tasted Crottin ever before and had no idea what it should taste or look like. As it turned out when pictures and recipes began floating around that even people who thought they succeeded making the perfect Crottin made some great cheese - but it was nothing like Crottin.
My point is; many people want to make great cheese but fail - not due to any lack of talent but simply because they never tried the cheese they set out to make or their palate has not developed enough to detect the differences; simply because they haven't tried enough cheese varieties as consumers. I think that having a broad and sensitive palate is the most valuable commodity of any cook or artisanal food maker, especially in such challenging cultured and aged products such as cheese and wine.
I have been very privileged to grow up in a household where great cheese was consumed, tested and appreciated. I am now very lucky to live in a town that is full with incredible world-class fromageries very knowledgeable fromagiers and affineurs. I make it a point to take advantage at it. (by the way, I give them tastes and get the most incredible structured feedback on my cheese that anyone would ever give me so that on its own is amazing). I don't think I would be able to invent cheeses if it wasn't for the inspiration and tastes I get at local cheese shops and visiting markets whenever I go abroad. The more you eat them, the more you have to aspire to and the better cheesemaker you become. I am so happy I can finally "pass the buck" and that it can possibly help people like you improve your cheese skills too. I got a lot of help on this board and others here help me too, all the time.
For some reason I too missed this thread. I love the look of your cheese, inside and outside. Sorry it didn't entirely fulfill your expectations.
Hey, I like to blabber in the night. Perhaps you already guessed that.
I've made Esrom according to the 200 Easy Cheeses recipe. I know the rind was wrong and I hope to improve the next time I make that style. I too am guilty of making a cheese I've never tasted. I see pictures to know what it should look like, but having visited many markets and cheese supply shops locally, I have yet to locate anyone who sells Esrom. I will try to buy it online.
I had an opportunity yesterday to finally taste a 12-month-old Manchego. There's another style that I had made according to a recipe, but never tasted before. It is very important to have the sensory experience enjoyed with cheese, including the sight, smell, taste, texture, and satisfaction (or disappointment) of the final flavor profile on the palate.
-Boofer-
You'll never know what was lacking. The texture looks good, no slits, and the rind line is fairly shallow. You could have gone another 30-60 days easily without drying out. A tomme like that I would expect an initial rind sesnory flush followed by a profile dominated by the paste. Your recipe indicates you only added MA as a starter, with a bunch of surface ripeners, but didn't add anything to work on the body. I presume this is because you wanted the natural flora in the raw milk to do that work for you.
I would suggest one or more of the following additions:
-thermo of your choice, TA050 is nice as is LH100. Just stay away from rapid acidifiers.
-micrococci
-lactobacilli
-shot gun approach of PLA or ARN
Good luck.
Quote from: FRANCOIS on February 06, 2011, 07:03:04 PM
"Just stay away from rapid acidifiers..."
Francois, if I could hijack a bit, though relative to your above comment. (Apologies Iratherfly, for drawing another comment).
I just made a first tomme (https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,6280.msg44635.html#msg44635) with MA4001, as well; did about a 1.25% primer culture inoculation, and had what seems to me to be a really rapid pH drop - from milk at 6.61 to 6.42 1/2 hr after inoculation, to a very low 5.0 by the time I finished the initial press schedule, until a final 4.77 at brining time. Obviously, my technique is at fault, as MA is used to excellent results by more experienced makers (I have become something of an online acolyte of linux, yourself, Sailor, and a few others....).
Can you go into this a bit more? Is the
s. thermophilis component of the MA4001 perhaps something to watch out for, in terms of a too-rapid acidification? If so - is yours a general recommendation to avoid fast acidifiers, or, if using them, to adjust inoculation rate, temp, etc., to retard them, a bit?
Basically, just curious on your comment, relative to using MA4001 or similar in a high initial-pH cheese, like tomme. Thanks.
As you know that pH drop is far too fast and deep for this cheese. MA4001 is a slow to mildly medium acidifier. At 6.42 I'd be running the curd for pressing. What was the pH of your starter? Did you wash the curd and if so did you check your water pH?
When I used to make raw milk tomme I used 4001 as my base meso, never had an issue with it.
Quote from: FRANCOIS on February 06, 2011, 07:27:38 PM
As you know that pH drop is far too fast and deep for this cheese. MA4001 is a slow to mildly medium acidifier. At 6.42 I'd be running the curd for pressing. What was the pH of your starter? Did you wash the curd and if so did you check your water pH?
When I used to make raw milk tomme I used 4001 as my base meso, never had an issue with it.
Thanks for the reply, Francois.
I wasn't aware the MA was considered a moderate-rate acidifier (going on Danisco's description in part, "S. thermophilis for quicker acid production..." but wasn't aware that is relative to others.
The starter pH was 4.37.
I achieved 6.42 at the end of 1/2 hour of primer inoculation - but no rennet had yet been added. Am I hearing you right, you'd cut and press? I had no coagulum at that point, just the milk at that pH; rennet took quite awhile, 24 min floc, so I went with a 3x multiplier, cut, stirred and cooked over 40 minutes from 31C to 37.8 (wanted 1/2 hr rise, it just took longer). Held at 37.8 an additional 20 minutes, to get the "sticky matting, somewhat firm" texture per Pav's recipe.
I did not wash this one - though I take to heart your comment on washed curd tommes to achieve the "nuttiness" which is primary and appealing to me - as I was trying everything out, including Yoav's PID-controlled vat, for the first time. I do intend to do a washed curd run, after getting a few more batches in.
So, MA4001 isn't the issue, then. Presuming the 1.25% inoculation must have been too much? Anything popping out why I would have gotten such a radical drop, given the above?
MA is medium to low, I think it's their R series that are fast acidifers. When I say I'd be running curd at that pH, it means I would have adjusted my process to suit. For example if my starting pH was 6.7, I'd ripen to 6.55 or 6.6, then added rennet. I'd take my floc (probably 12 minutes) and do 3x for cut. I'd heal, stir and drain whey/add water and stir again. I'd be at about 6.35-6.4 at this point and the curd would be run to the presses.
I would note of your comments:
-A 24 minute flocultion indicates something wrong with your milk.
-4.37 is very low for starter. We mix ours to target 5.0
Without a wash you will most likely get body defects, primarily slitting, and your ripening cultures will probably act funny with such a low core pH to start. Your surface will lag behind a bit and overall aging will be retarded unless you added cultures which can jump right on a low pH like that (OFR9 is a good example of one that can).
OK, thanks. This milk is a vat pasteurized, cream line milk, and I had no success in getting the globules fully mixed in. I didn't want to agitate in the bottle too much. The milk I currently have is an HTST milk I've always had success with in making good fresh cheese, so returning to that, at least through this learning curve.
You mention elsewhere (https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,1880.msg12115.html#msg12115) that floc time isn't necessarily related to rennet amount; I had thought the slow time was perhaps due to a too-low rennet dosage. Can you elaborate on what some of the variables are, that affect the floc time?
So, if the milk was at 6.61, I should have just monitored to 6.55-6.5 (i.e., represents about a 1-1.5pt pH drop, as your 6.7-6.55/6.6), or just drop rennet in whenever reaching the 6.55-6.6, regardless of the starting milk pH?
I'm also gleaning that as I had such trouble getting floc, all the more time at 88F for the LAB to go to town, yes? Ended up with a 72 minute renneting as opposed to a 36 minute renneting, in other words.
Will re-do the primer to achieve a pH 5.0. It seems that with tomme, so long as there is viable LAB in reasonable amounts, "erring" on the side of a higher initial pH is the only way to go, so watching carefully all along the way for pH changes is imperative - yes?
Interesting on the cooked-stirring, v. washed-curd, in final texture. I'll do it. Now it occurs to me - without the wash, esp. if I had lag in the floc and too long a time at 88F for coagulation, I had a ton of residual lactose, and massive cfu's LAB to metabolize it. To retard the drop, it seems obvious to me now, wash the curd - yes?
Can you guide the science behind the "slits?" in cooked method, here?
Finally, on the wash water - sorry if this is picayune - but we've a 10-stage filter that does a decent job of CL- removal ("99.9%"); any reason this couldn't be used, or do you use distilled/RO/D.I water?
A quick glance of OFR is that it's used on Gubbeen, among others. I see you also mention (https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,2019.msg22083.html#msg22083) that OFR is very close to PLA, which I have - presumably, it has lower pH optima-spp?
Thanks for all the information - understanding more, very much appreciated.
Answering your questions in order:
Variables that affect floculation time:
-pH
-Protein/fat ratio
-calcium content
-Overall solids content
-How well you diluted and stirred the rennet in
-phase of the moon
-what you had for breakfast
The last two are obviously in jest, but I include them to point out that not every parameter can be controlled and sometimes the milk is just off for some unknown reason. 99% of the time though, it's not an issue. If you follow your recipe, add a little extra calcium and the milk is relatively fine, you will get a 7-15 minute floculation time.
For the time between culture addition and rennetting, always use change in pH. It's not until you get to process steps later that absolute numbers are necessary. Yes, the longer you waited for floculationa nd then 3x, the lower your pH got.
I always wash the curd in a tomme, and actually most semi-soft yellows. Unless ou are making a wheel that is so big you can age to for years to completely break the paste down and ripen it, you should wash a tomme. It also allows better pH conditions for other good bugs to start dewveloping flavour and aroma. If you have such a low pH for so long, it really retards maturation. That is why cheddar takes forever to mature, anything under 6-10 months is tangy and acidic.
Slitting due to Ph occurs because the curd is so brittle. As the cheese wheels are aged, moved, flipped, rubbed and dried out, the brittle paste breaks and slits. As the cheese dries out some more those slits expand.
I never stress about water. We use straight city water here with a healthy dose of chlorine, no issues.
Thank you, Francois. A wealth of useful information, and I'm retooling now.
"Phase of the moon" - must have been doing this until 4:00 a.m. this morning. Methinks the goddess Artemis was not amused. >:D
Quote
So, if the milk was at 6.61, I should have just monitored to 6.55-6.5 (i.e., represents about a 1-1.5pt pH drop, as your 6.7-6.55/6.6), or just drop rennet in whenever reaching the 6.55-6.6, regardless of the starting milk pH?
If you're using mother culture, for a tomme, I wouldn't even ripen it. Maybe for something like 5 minutes. But with the mother culture, you dump it in, stir around, and add rennet. You get a nice pH drop right away with the mother, so you can go to town.
Agree with Francois, I wash all my tommes with at least 15% wash. You can make a lovely cheese, ready for market in 70-80 days if you wash, and use an adjunct, and surface ripen, just like Francois said.
Nuttiness in a washed curd tomme is not primarily about the removed lactose, it's primarily about lactobacilli producing tasty amino acids and other compounds.
You sound like a lazy frenchman I know that adds 3-5% and then rennet right afterward. I prefer to go with 1% and let some acidity develop, it feels less like cheating to me.
I realize now I was going off of your recipe, linux, but spaced I was going with a mother, and not a DVI, and so ripened for 30 minutes. Another "duh."
On the other hand, Francois, I did inoculate at about 1.25%, so it wasn't high enough to be in the "lazy Frenchman" category, yes? Sounds like my primer pH was so low to begin with, indicating a pretty high LAB count, that 1/2 hour of "this" 1.25% was very different from 1/2 hr of a 5.0 primer 1.25% inoculation rate - is this reasonable?
The idea of inoculating with a strong primer component, and adding rennet immediately or almost immediately, or a lower initial mother inoculation, and slowing the initial acidification curve does remind me - forgive me, it's the only micro-oriented world I knew, before starting this - of brewing, where as I mentioned, sometimes we deliberately under-inoculated as we wanted some of the increased generations, and aerobic respiration by-products; others, seeking a "cleaner" profile, we made sure to inoculate with a properly high-rate, so the fermentation began with relatively less cell-budding and associated sensory by-products.
This is close to what you're saying, yes, Francois - you prefer some growth in the vat, over pitching enough mother to immediately drop the pH to renneting level?
Depends on the milk... my tommes are 1% (.2% LH, .8% 4001), sometimes 1.25% starter. But the way I like to do it is high calcium (rennet ~6.55), and I push the moisture up (15-20% wash, uncooked) to make up for the higher calcium so the ripening is shortened. So the protein solubilizes after curd formation. It doesn't feel like cheating because it actually takes to longer to hit target brine pH this way (with the associated risk of microbiological offtastes from waiting so long in the danger zone), so I still have to baby them. And then I get good paste development by using PLA+MVA+Hansen's BC in a 90% RH, 52F. I push that rind to do its job, so the high calcium gives me good bones and then enough wiggle room during ripening that the paste is spot on.
Quote
This is close to what you're saying, yes, Francois - you prefer some growth in the vat, over pitching enough mother to immediately drop the pH to renneting level?
The choice here is about casein solubilization BEFORE forming the curd gel. We talked about this briefly on the phone. Long, and slow tends to produce the best outcome. When you slowly use the lactic acid to break apart those colloidal calcium bonds in micelles, it will give you a very even disassociation pattern. And a better paste in the finished cheese because that rate of disassociation also influences the degree of casein hydration. It's a very, very important principle in cheesemaking.
Francois here has said he likes for the acid to act slowly on the caseins, and then add rennet when the right acidity is in the milk. That makes for a great cheese. I, on the other hand, often engineer tommes to have a very predictable shelf life, which I do by adding rennet right away at a higher pH, using the same pitch rate, and having very little casein solubilization before adding rennet. This, ordinarily, would take a long time to ripen, which I mitigate by my solution of increasing moisture content, and using both paste ripening and surface ripening adjuncts.
His approach is more traditional, more "honest". My approach is more suited to the business world because it sells more water and still makes for a great product. I don't think I've actually posted about my industrial methodology before. I still make a good number of very traditional, slow-ripened tommes for myself.
Also, I need that calcium because my goat milk is 3.8% protein, and in the summer when I make tomme, about 6% fat. So I like having a very solid calcium backbone in the cheese for this type of milk. I would make different choices if I raised Alpines or if this was cow milk. You have to work with the milk you have, some of what I say when I talk about my makes wouldn't apply very well to other milk.
Thanks, Pav. I posted, but for some reason, it's not showing up. Your further explanation helped clarify for me. I also recall our conversation, thanks. Basically, if I've understood correctly, your high pH renneting preserves CaPO3; you achieve curd, then, with this higher ca intact and only then solubilize the protein by the high-moisture washing. If you didn't approach with a higher moisture content, you'd have a very long paste aging curve. You also pick paste and rind cultures for their specific enzymatic properties (mostly, given the above method), yes? You also indicate the higher moisture content typically engenders a bigger window for adverse contamination - particularly on a higher initial pH cheese like a tomme, yes?
Finally, milk protein and fat ratios are inversely proportional, and as you're in the game with the clever little impish fellows, you just need a higher Ca component for structure, particularly in the summer. Yes?
Close, or ridiculously off-mark?
Edit: Just wanted to say thank you to Pav and Francois. As usual, the gift to transfer principles so clearly, graciously and well is something I don't take lightly, so I do appreciate it. Yoav, apologies if I've commandeered your thread to an off-world track.
I'll be checking in later on further replies. As I will admit, I am diving into a family afternoon watching....um, the sport where guys in pads chest-bump and move in 10-yd drives. GO PACKERS! (Do I sound sufficiently American, now? ;D).
Quoteonly then solubilize the protein by the high-moisture washing
No, only acid breaks those bonds. It's solubilized by acid, and the long time in the mold to build up that acid. My tommes are usually in the mold 8-12 hours.
QuoteIf you didn't approach with a higher moisture content, you'd have a very long paste aging curve
It would be longer, to be sure. I also rely on the internal bacteria enzymes, and rind enzymes to help.
QuoteYou also indicate the higher moisture content typically engenders a bigger window for adverse contamination
No, the high pH does that. From the regular pH of 6.7 all the way to 5.4 or so, it's a danger zone. During this range of pH, all sorts of bacteria can grow. Your listeria, enterococcus, coliforms, psychotrophs, etc, they can all grow. Unless your milk is good, they can cause off flavors. Tommes are not easy for this reason - your milk must be excellent if you want to acidify slowly.
Quotejust need a higher Ca component for structure, particularly in the summer. Yes?
I feel like with my higher fat milk, it needs a good foundation of calcium for tomme specifically. I made a deliberate decision here and like the results better. Discovered through trial and error.
Acid solubilization: Sorry, right - H-CaPO3 exchange, correct?
Contamination: I get the high pH issue; guess I was thinking that the higher moisture also makes a window for faster growth, generally - but I'm not at all sure I've remembered correctly here, or if so, I get that this is growth for all species - not just unwanted ones. You have hit home for me the special diligence required here, or indeed for any high initial pH cheese.
OK, you got me. I prefer learning this to watching pre-game. (My family's outside...so I can steal a few more minutes before "freak about new learning guy" has to become "dad, just plain old dad.") ;D
Right, what he said.
I should have clarified. The lazy frenchmen way comes from industrial camembert manufacture where it's slam bam thank you mam. There's no ripening and the curd is cut at floculation. It's very creamy with all sorts of captured extra moisture that increases profitability). You'd think it would taste terrible, but it doesn't. It's the same concept, less traditional but still gives a good product that is profitable to make.
As I begin to gain some traction on the why and how of this food, the methods that can be had truly are really fascinating. I see both approaches being discussed here, and though it's my intent to master fundamentals, this glimpse at more nuanced possibilities is really helpful. Thanks, guys.
Francois, you got it exactly right. That's where I borrowed the idea and adapted it for tomme. I have mixed thoughts about it because I did it with a similar motivation - to help farmstead producers sell more water, and to push the flavor and paste development sooner, into the ready to sell at 80-100 days window instead of the 120+ days. It actually makes for a very pleasant, very sellable cheese that will keep peak flavor at 34F for 4-5 months. And it's not like I'm using encapsulated enzyme extracts for flavor or bubbling CO2 through the milk for the solubilization. Maybe I've rationalized it too much. I have qualms about using science to engineer food, even if the methods and approaches are natural.
Paul, best to stick to the classic recipe I posted until you get the hang of it. Sorry for any confusion.
Quote from: linuxboy on February 07, 2011, 02:23:34 AM
Francois, you got it exactly right. That's where I borrowed the idea and adapted it for tomme. I have mixed thoughts about it because I did it with a similar motivation - to help farmstead producers sell more water, and to push the flavor and paste development sooner, into the ready to sell at 80-100 days window instead of the 120+ days. It actually makes for a very pleasant, very sellable cheese that will keep peak flavor at 34F for 4-5 months. And it's not like I'm using encapsulated enzyme extracts for flavor or bubbling CO2 through the milk for the solubilization. Maybe I've rationalized it too much. I have qualms about using science to engineer food, even if the methods and approaches are natural.
Paul, best to stick to the classic recipe I posted until you get the hang of it. Sorry for any confusion.
Well, Pav, I know I could spend a lifetime perfecting a simple element of cheesemaking; but then, I think much the same could be said of anything worthy (something like the "1000 cuts" of Japanese swordsmanship - one simple stroke, forged, over and over a lifetime).
I also know there is no art without surviving - something I have some pretty personal experience with, so I for one found this discussion really important, and deeply informative, both from a technical standpoint, and a philosophical one.
Whoa, this thread has gone nuts all of a sudden on this Superbowl Sunday; I didn't even have the chance to respond.
Francois - thanks! I didn't use much body development cultures because I was trying to let the milk speak for itself. I have gotten better character in the past with pasteurized milk and no body development cultures, so that's why I was disappointed so much by the result with this raw milk. Secondly, I am still new to TA series cultures and trying to learn more about them. This was made in the middle of last year. I now do at least some kind of farmstead culture in my Tommes and Reblochon style cheese. I would love to get recommendations on TA cultures for cheese (consider that I never pass the 100F in my cheesemaking so I don't need it for thermophilic purposes). I am currently experimenting with TA61. Any thoughts? As for surface development, I do work often with PLA in both Tommes and surface ripened and washed rind cheese but this wasn't what I was trying to achieve with this. I was looking for that mushroomy quality of Savoie style cheese without the b.linen aroma. I since have developed much richer cheese. Also, while I have your attention, what is your opinion regarding rind of Mycodore vs Mycoderm? and PLA vs ARN? What do you think of using Penicillium Album on a softer goat's Tomme?
ArnaudForestier - Someone will be annoyed with me here but I suggest to put the pH meter aside when practicing these Tommes initially. Learn to feel the curd instead of trying to calibrate these pesky meters and waiting for them to give you a reading and then ask yourself if the reading is still correct an hour later if you haven't calibrated again. It's a bit like trying to drive in a new city with a GPS instead of looking out the window and learning the landmarks. It's a great tool for establishing consistency and troubleshooting but don't drive the cheese according to pH reading. I have not missed one Tomme in over a year (and I made plenty) and never had to use the pH meter (except a couple of times to tune up experimental brines so that they matched the curd). Try the recipe once without measuring and just trust yourself. It will really help you.
Boofer I am sure there are a few good fromagiers in WA state. Have you tried Whole Foods? If you can't find Esrom, try finding the more readily available Port Salut. Esrom is the Scandinavian version of that French cheese. It's a stinky and rather sweet cheese. You can also order cheese from Murray's or Artisanal. they really know how to ship it well.
Iratherfly, my way of going forward will likely be a combination of both sensory evaluation, and utilizing things like pH targets, etc. As a brewer, if I was incredibly anal about targets - initial pH, pH drop in the mash, hitting specific gravity targets in the wort, and in residual sugar content, recirc clarity, etc. - I am also almost fatally a sensualist, and couldn't help going by my senses, if I tried. So, I suppose I will likely find my way crawling from known areas into the dark by some combination of resting on the scientific benchmarks that have proven results - e.g., Francois' comment, to watch for pH drop and not absolute numbers when decided when to rennet - and "feel," such as Pav's comment on watching the curd while cooking, for matting together and firming up. (To give credit due to both gentlemen: a wealth of both scientific rigor and rounder, practical knowledge, and the gift to convey it).
I guess I see it as all technique; and as to technique, I lean on the shoulders of those who've gone before, to master the fundamentals. A very orthodox approach to apprenticeship, something close to my sensibilities.
Edit: Francois, I looked into the OFR9. LOL, it comes in 100 dose packets, at close to $100 U.S. Think I'll be trying to experiment with PLA on this poor, acid-besotted cheese. ;D
(thanks for the heads up on the culture, though - did get the spec sheet, interesting to see its components and specific uses). Francois or Linux - you gents would know - in addition to a possible higher ratio of DH (when compared to the PLA), is the B. casei a lower-pH range tolerant brevibacterium?
It's good that you have the discipline to do that. It also helps that you are experienced with using pH measuring equipment (I am allergic to that thing, almost every time I use it I destroy the cheese waiting for it to show me a number and re-calibrating it 10 times because it's always off after the first measurement. I stopped turning on this $300 piece of equipment). Tomme is a wide range of cheeses and as such, it is very forgiving and can be done many different ways. Learning to feel the curd can do a lot of the work for you. Also looking at the milk and learning to recognize what it looks like when its time to put rennet or judge visually changes in curd acidity - that can do much of the work for you in the sensory department.
Is OFR9 back in production??? Where are you getting it from? I thought it wasn't produced anymore! My experience with PLA is that is grew on almost everything I put it on and was very resilient to different salting, pH and humidity conditions.
I appreciate everything you're saying, Yoav. This was my first batch of anything other than fresh cheese, and it was almost like - well, I'll borrow Buck47's wonderful imagery (John, if you're reading....your pm floored me, I'll reply in a bit ;D) - a billion sensory lights bouncing off, and all at the same time. Extraordinary to watch the coagulating milk - because I've only done fresh chevre or other lactic or semi-lactic acid cheeses, I've always just renneted the miniscule amount, and left it alone, unwatched, overnight. Wonderful to observe and feel all this stuff through its several stages, before my eyes. So I definitely align with you on the importance of "feel" - have always felt this was, as well. I guess my hope is that I can conjoin "both" worlds, sensory and the rigorous "benchmarks" approach, in a synergistic way.
Based on Francois' recommendation, I did look into OFR. My local supplier can get it, but it's on special order only, and in 100 dose bags. Close to $100. Ahem....will be trying this first, gloriously failed cheese with PLA, and do what Pav recommended, age it and try it monthly, to learn the &^%#$ out of it. But it's nice to learn of the OFR - very curious on its properties and optima.
Sorry again, Yoav, if I steered this thread to my own needs unduly. Thanks for the thread, and your story in it. :)
Yea, it's quite something, isn't it? Very magical and interesting. Just wait until your rinds begin to bloom. It's like some magic garden that grows against all odds. It's a fascinating process and it can get overwhelming the first few times (which is why I said that initially I advise keeping the pH meter off and just "watch the road").
Last I asked my supplier, OFR9 was off the market (some of these cultures go off the market and come back once in a while in rotation). I have never worked with it but wanted to. Not sure what happened with your PLA but I really think of it as a magical little culture. Perhaps if you buy the large amount some of us can split it? Is it in individual bags?
This thread was hijack-able for a while. This is cheese that I opened in August and finished long time ago.... not a current thread.
Oh, so far, nothing has happened with the PLA - just laid this cheese in to dry last night, after 15 hours brine. Plan on rind blasting with 2% salinity and PLA, by Pav's normal routine. Will be curious how long it takes to begin a bloom, if at all, given the vastly-overshot pH drop.
I will call and ask DC about the OFR, see if it's splittable. My sense is, no, that it's a 100 dose bag..but good idea, if people were interested, will check into this.
Quick reply back, the OFR is only available in the 100dose sizing. Too bad.
See attached PDF for some explanation on PLA, MVA, OFR.
Danisco is funny about what formats they release in what markets. I get OFR9 in liquid form, by the litre. I love the stuff.
Quote from: FRANCOIS on February 07, 2011, 08:43:38 PM
See attached PDF for some explanation on PLA, MVA, OFR.
Danisco is funny about what formats they release in what markets. I get OFR9 in liquid form, by the litre. I love the stuff.
Thanks, Francois. I actually had that - what I was hoping for was some understanding of why, specifically, the mix in OFR does a better job working to deacidify, and/or why the sp. involved have a lower pH tolerance/optima. I was curious if the b. casei is somehow different in this regard than the linens, or is it due, perhaps, to a higher concentration of the DH & geo in the OFR over the PLA, that more rapidly raises the surface pH, allowing the brevibacteria to gain a quicker foothold?
Concentrations have nothing to do with it. It is the strains. PLA works best as a precursor to white mould. It will continue to work on the surface as the white mould grows and after it dies back you will get a nice rustic rind. OFR9 is best for washed rind cheeses since it has a complex yeast and mould mix. It's not that one is a better acidifier or neutraliser or better anything than the other, they just work differently on DIFFERENT cheeses. If I used OFR9 on a white mould it will act differently than on a washed rind.
So the answer is there is no answer. I'm sure Linux will happily give you a break down of each species and their ideal ranges, you can possibly draw your own conclusions from that.
Now that I think of it, that makes sense...I was going on the notion of "ratio" by the tech person from my supplier, who only offered this notion of ratios as the possible difference. But obviously, any environmental setup will simply encourage whatever species optimally likes the environment. So, uh, "duh," in other words.
Thanks for the info on white mold v. washed rind. Though I'm bummed, as the OFR9 sounds positively incredible. Tant pis.
I am still curious on the species' difference, and what each optimally likes. Pav?
Since I recently tasted my own first attempt at a raw milk tomme, I thought I would take the liberty of posting it here. Given that all of my other cheeses have been too hard and crumbly, and I could feel that there was less and less 'give' to this one, I caved in and opened it at 50 days. Raw cow's milk (but I believe homogenized) from Byebrook Farms in the SW Catskills, made pretty much per LB's recipe with C101 mesophilic starter, plus some squirts of Tomme de Savoie rind morge into the milk, and washed curds. Only very lightly pressed and brined for about 8 hrs.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5229/5617681245_d031f6f282_z.jpg)
The whole 2-lb cheese. You can see the little 'lip' at the top where the curds overflowed the mold. Still a couple of little bald spots there.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5026/5617681261_b7a5b4a23a_z.jpg)
Cut open to reveal a pretty solid paste. It was not as elastic as I really desired, but sliceable and would bend a bit before breaking. The rind was mostly sprayed and occasionally wiped with morge made from all Tomme de Savioe rind. At the risk of confusing things, I did dip it in dark beer briefly one day after 2-3 weeks of rind washing, and I think it added a little color to the rind.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5223/5617681275_ac95f8519d_z.jpg)
Sliced! I was pleased with the taste, I feel like I am at least getting closer to things I like, if not exacrtly what I shot for. It was not truly tomme-like, but had a mild, slightly nutty flavor with a strong Emmenthal or Gruyere-like note in it, followed by a slightly acidic bite in the finish, with a lingering kind of grassy aftertaste. Kind of 'alpine' I suppose? It reminded me a little of Drumm or Frolic from Bobolink Farms, who have a stand at the Union Square greenmarket here in NYC. Very different from my other recent efforts, and I am glad for the experience of it.
I have another one, and I am going to try to let it age a bit longer. It's in my 'cave' mini-fridge, and the humidity there is probably mid-80s now. Would be interested in recommendation on how to age. Now that the rind is established, would vac-bagging be a good way to go to absolutely avoid moisture loss? I'm willing to keep it in the cave, but I really don't want to open it in another 6 weeks and find it crumbly and hard.
Also, for the remaining pieces of this - about what is the shelf life of a cut cheese of this type? Also, I am assuming that wrapping it in plastic and refrigerating is a reasonable way to keep it? Or should I ideally vac-bag the cut pieces too?
Wow, beautiful looking cheese, Brand. My tomme is at 9 weeks, now, and nowhere near as deeply developed a rind. Your paste looks really nice, as well - congratulations!
Great looking tomme--congrats!
Good-looking cheese! That little lip gives the cheese character...makes it look like a pot pie. :)
I would vacuum bag the cut pieces. They'll stay a lot fresher that way. I like that rind. I've got a Tomme just one week out of the brine and I'm trying to decide how to develop the rind.
-Boofer-
Quote from: FRANCOIS on February 08, 2011, 12:00:24 AM
Concentrations have nothing to do with it. It is the strains. PLA works best as a precursor to white mould. It will continue to work on the surface as the white mould grows and after it dies back you will get a nice rustic rind. OFR9 is best for washed rind cheeses since it has a complex yeast and mould mix. It's not that one is a better acidifier or neutraliser or better anything than the other, they just work differently on DIFFERENT cheeses. If I used OFR9 on a white mould it will act differently than on a washed rind.
So the answer is there is no answer. I'm sure Linux will happily give you a break down of each species and their ideal ranges, you can possibly draw your own conclusions from that.
Old thread - but now that I have a bit more experience, and the question of PLA was raised on another thread (https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,6913.0.html), Francois, if you're reading this - can you go into the why of this? Why PLA is preferable as a precursor agent for white mould cheeses, and OFR9, for smear-ripened cheeses? I know the OFR9 has a more complex blend of yeasts, but given that the PLA has both DH and geo, just wondering what specifically is at play that means this is both preferable for white mold cheeses, and not, perhaps, as good an agent as the OFR9 for a smear-ripened, rustic rind, as on a given tomme?
Secondly, for reblochon, in lieu of a vat inoculation of geo, candidum, linens and the SLABs, how do you feel about feel about just using PLA, both in the vat, and brine wash or, in the vat, with an SR3-only wash?
QuoteOFR9 has a more complex blend of yeasts,
Focusing on wrong difference. Not yeast, but bacteria. ORF is more proteolytic, has b casei. It's funkier.
You can't do something that funky on a bloomy rind. Just would not work, you'd wind up with a smear rind. The succession is rather similar, ratios and variants are not.
Quote from: linuxboy on April 19, 2011, 07:00:29 PM
QuoteOFR9 has a more complex blend of yeasts,
Focusing on wrong difference. Not yeast, but bacteria. ORF is more proteolytic, has b casei. It's funkier.
You can't do something that funky on a bloomy rind. Just would not work, you'd wind up with a smear rind. The succession is rather similar, ratios and variants are not.
Pav, I don't know enough yet about casei, just see it throughout the lit. on surface flora for smeared rinds. Good to know of its proteolytic nature - thanks.
I was just going off of Francois's comment,
QuoteOFR9 is best for washed rind cheeses since it has a complex yeast...
Since there are more yeast spp. in the OFR, I was wondering specifically what they had to do with it, relative to the geo and DH in PLA, how they specifically aided a smear (basically, why the PLA wouldn't presumably do as good a job, with only DH and geo, whether we're calling geo a mould or yeast).
Man, I'd love to obtain OFR9. Shame it's not available in the States, it seems.
QuoteOFR9 is best for washed rind cheeses since it has a complex yeast...
Since there are more yeast spp. in the OFR, I was wondering specifically what they had to do with it, relative to the geo and DH in PLA, how they specifically aided a smear (basically, why the PLA wouldn't presumably do as good a job, with only DH and geo, whether we're calling geo a mould or yeast).
candida is much faster than geo. You're talking about rapid lactate consumption. It will deacidify to 5.8 in a day most of the time. Then geo and yeast are to form a complex biofilm and interaction among the members, so that both the linens and the casei can thrive. It's an engineered system that if left alone achieves completely different ends than PLA even though you tweak quantities and variants and types just a little.
Cool. Thanks, Pav. :)
Right, what he said. I hadn't ever really given it much thought actually. It was always just a given that PLA and OFR9 worked in those ways. If you use OFR9 on white mould, which I have, it ends up being very different than on a washed rind and not nearly as nice as the PLA. So, I was just speaking from experience.
Thanks, Francois. I see the dynamics, now. And can I fly to NZ to pick up some OFR from you? 8)