Howdy all.
I believe I am becoming a cheese maker by pure accident!
I was given an offer I just could not refuse. Free Jersey 1st year heifer, just freshened reportedly giving 2.5 gallons per day. Since I don't have rocks in my head, I jumped at the offer.
We get this lovely animal home to the pasture and find out that she was giving 2.5 gallons per milking. All of a sudden we have a milk crisis! And since I absolutely deplore waste, it is a real crisis. OK so not as bad as oil spills or such, but WHOA! 3-4 gallons per day is a lot of milk, even for a family of 8.
So, we've been doing a lot of butter and cottage cheese and we no longer have to ration milk. Thank God for that.
I happened on this site after a search for homemade cheese presses. Thank you all who contribute to this site, it is really a God sent to us who haven't the faintest of clues about cheese production.
So, the deslemma is: How is the best way to use up 3 gallons of really nice raw milk per day. I mean, in a gallon glass container, this milk has 3 inches of cream.
So, if you had an excess of free milk what would you do with it?
Also, I need to ground up cheese making this weekend!
Welcome to the forum. Wow, how lucky are you to have such a "problem"?
Anticipate a lot of responses from the folks on this forum. Hey, there's ice cream...summer's almost here.
Collect the milk every other day and make a big 7-gallon wheel of something...anything...so many choices.
Envy, envy.... :D
Good luck. Keep asking questions.
-Boofer-
Welcome to the forum. Your problem is the same reason i got into cheesemaking; lots of milk from my cows and i cannot stand to waste it. You are going to need to invest in a pot big enough to make a substantial amount because you just can't make it everyday and it takes the same time to make a 20 gallon batch as a 1 gallon batch. Then decide how you are going to heat it. Then you need the right size hoops and an adequate press. In the mean time you probably should learn to make queso fresco to use up a lot of milk in a simple way. I would recommend making Monterey Jack as your first hard cheese as it seems to have a high tolerance for inexperience and ripens quick. if you have specific questions, ask away. Family of 8 equals 6 kids? We have ten kids and I think they benefit more from the milk than any one realizes. Yours are blessed to grow up on it. Love your "handle". Good luck.
Farmer JD,
Any suggestions on where to get such a large stock pot? We've got one that's 24 qt. we use for canning, but I figure we'd need a much BIGGER one. I also thought an additional refrigerator would be really handy. I bought a bunch of 1 gal. glass jars at a yard sale, so I thing I'd have enought for 12 gallons. But so far we have room for 5 in my refrigerator.
What would you recommend as far as the size mold for that much cheese? I dloaded lots of plans from this site and want to fabricate something this weekend.
Yep 6 children 10 to 4 months, the older girls are helping me milk and care for STAR. She lets us all milk her at once. Yesterday she was at her teather waiting to me milked. It was pretty cool.
Yeah, with my handle, lots of people think I'm an environmentalist...HAHA! Yep, wildlife is good to eat! They don't realize its a biblical reference. :) You have 10, I think we my be there someday. I'm only 37, wife is 36, so there are several years for more blessings.
Thanks for the post, I'm sure I can learn alot from you and others here. This is the first forum I've seen where people share this calliber of knowledge. I think this is what the internet was made for. Neat to be a part of it.
Say, real good to hear from you. I don't have internet at home, so I'll be pretty slow in replying. Thanks again and God bless.
BTW This site is a bit of information overload! I wonder if the moderator would ever consider putting the cheesemaking for dummies section available on PDF for easier use. Man, I would pay for that. I'd beg too! Real good information, No fluff, just good info. I can tell people hear love what they do! It's pretty exciting to me to see people loving what they do.
Debi on this forum has a good ebook here http://www.deejayssmokepit.net/CheeseDownloads_files/LetsMakeCheese.pdf (http://www.deejayssmokepit.net/CheeseDownloads_files/LetsMakeCheese.pdf)
I've also started my project last week where I plan to write detailed articles that have consolidated information and a mix of science and practice at http://www.wacheese.com/ (http://www.wacheese.com/)
Welcome! Hope you find what you need here. If you get stuck, we're here to help :)
Search the forum for stock pot as I think there are a couple of threads with info on them. Ebay is a good place to start. Several discussions debate the use of aluminum for cheesemaking but the pots are really the cheapest alternative. I would say with your situation you should aim for a 15 gallon pot. I used that for a while until I was blessed with a 25 gallon SS one. If you get a pot in this range, you are looking at 8 - 12 gallon batches once a week (at least that's what I would estimate depending on your family consumption of milk, buttermilk and butter). But as you said, that requires another frig. You might try an older upright freezer unit and use a thermostat to keep the temp at 33. That way you don't have to cool another freezer unit and you have the whole space for refrigerated stuff. I finally bought a 19 cu ft all frig. Hard to find them though.
For 8-12 gal batches you would need a 7 or 8 in mold that was about 12 inches tall. For the press, I would definitely recommend a dutch design of some kind. Cheeses this size require a good deal more pressure than you can produce without leverage.
I have 10 kids from 16 to 9 months and I am 41; wife 38. The best time of the day is when 5 of my boys and I are in the barn talking over the sound of milking 3 cows into 3 buckets. My older girls milked when the boys were too little but the boys won't let them in the barn now. :) Sounds like you have a good cow. I train all mine to let 4 kids milk at once. The little ones partner with an older one. Much faster. Nice to have arrows, huh.
This forum really is a knowledge bank. I am so thankful for all the folks who take the time to educate the rest of us. Great people here. Good luck and I look forward to hearing your cheesemaking adventures.
Welcome to the forum and to the wonders of fresh dairy! What an awesome gift! Right now you are probably having some culture shock going on, though. that's a lot of milk.
We have a Jersey cross cow and I always raise an extra calf or two on her. Plus we keep 3 pigs each summer and feed them a lot of clabbered milk. Clabbered milk is also very good for chickens. All good ways to use up the milk until you get in gear for cheesemaking.
Once you are making cheese, you will have gallons and gallons of whey. Again, chickens and pigs love the stuff. I soak corn and oats in whey and feed it (very sloppy) to them. Makes for very good meat.
I'm glad you found us and hope that you are able to glean lots of good stuff from the forum.
Where do you live? Depending on legalities (or even in spite of them, depending on what your in to) you could sell some of the milk. Our cow share started because we simply had too much milk. And later, the cheesemaking began because we still had too much milk.
When you are overwhelmed with milk, one good solution is paneer. You can make it quickly and use it in anything. It also freezes decent in a vacuum bag.
My personal recommendation would be to get some basic cheese supplies (rennet, cultures, and a mold) and make a few small batches with what you have. That way you will understand better which of the many different setups is right for you. It is harder to envision how you want to do each part of the process unless you know what it entails.
FarmerJD,
Yeah, I told my wife about the 25 gallon SS Pot. She was just curious on how in the world you cook with it? It would have to be gigantic, the 6 gallon is BIG. I thought of doing 2 x 6 gallons, but sure would be easier all in one pot. You don't put that on a range do you? Wouldn't the weight bend your stove top. I've heard about people having those stackable quart pressure canners that warped someones stove top due to the weight.
I also thought I would have to have a double boiler sooner or later.
The children love this cow, she's a real gentle girl. My boys are 7, 4, and 2, that doesn't stop them from trying to milk her. None of them really get the movement. Oh, they'll get a little milk out, but not much. I figure they'll get the hang of it if I keep letting them try for a bit each time. Now the 2 year old I haven't let go there yet.
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Mrs KK,
Thanks for the info on what in the world to do with all this whey! I don't have a hog or chickens YET. We've talked about a hog next spring (we're anticipating a move). Chickens we could do. Thanks again.
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Nitai,
Living in Indiana, could do a share. I would have to get a permit to sell for pet use. I've got a lot of people out here with decent dairies. I've been giving some away to neighbors.
Thanks for the idea to start small. I kinda just go with things and learn the hard way. But, you never forget what you've learned.
Well, I thought I'd share about my first cheese making experiences.
First, we saved cottage cheese for a spreadable cheese. The recipe was vague, geared more toward people that have a clue about cheese making. It scalded, but we salvaged it. It would be nice to taste it how it's supposed to be, but I'm not sure it's worth the time again. We added some garlic salt and that dressed it up nicely.
Second, we made Mozzarella. We used citric acid and then rennet. NOTHING! The recipe I used was not from this site as I didn't have any culture on hand, Also, it was for 2 gallons and I multiplied it times 2.5 for 5 gallons. So, I quickly looked up some other recipies. I added more rennet--I think the recipe calc-ed out to 5/8 tablet, I thought that sounded scrimpy, so I added total of 2.5 tabs. Still NOTHING. I added real lemon juice, which caused some curding. So I added more lemon juice. The curds ended up sinking and the second recipe talked about a "clean break." It didn't really do a very good job describing what that was, so I I figured I'd have to wait. I think I waited 1.5 to 2 hours and suddenly there are the curds. From there all went pretty well. The cheese, despite the blunders, turned out well--4.5# wheel. Gonna be real nice on a pizza.
Anyone have any ideas about citric acid vs lemon juice and why it didn't curd. Also rennet tabs vs liquid. I can definitely get into this cheese making. I can't wait until we get another fridge tonight and stockpile until Thursday, so I can try something pressed!
Which brings me to my last question at this time: Why couldn't you build a press that would press 4 molds at once, which are in a square pattern? It seems that the weight would be distributed, so it would take more total. But, it came to my mind and hadn't seen a discussion on it yet.
Quote from: everygoodtree on June 21, 2010, 03:08:19 PM
Second, we made Mozzarella. We used citric acid and then rennet. NOTHING! The recipe I used was not from this site as I didn't have any culture on hand, Also, it was for 2 gallons and I multiplied it times 2.5 for 5 gallons. So, I quickly looked up some other recipies. I added more rennet--I think the recipe calc-ed out to 5/8 tablet, I thought that sounded scrimpy, so I added total of 2.5 tabs. Still NOTHING. I added real lemon juice, which caused some curding. So I added more lemon juice. The curds ended up sinking and the second recipe talked about a "clean break." It didn't really do a very good job describing what that was, so I I figured I'd have to wait. I think I waited 1.5 to 2 hours and suddenly there are the curds. From there all went pretty well. The cheese, despite the blunders, turned out well--4.5# wheel. Gonna be real nice on a pizza.
How did you dissolve your rennet tabs? In ice cold distilled or filtered water? Sounds like your rennet was old or not acting well. If you added lemon juice and the curds separated then, you basically made a lemon fresh cheese. Meaning coagulation happened due to the acid and not the rennet. Did it stretch afterward when you made the mozz?
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Anyone have any ideas about citric acid vs lemon juice and why it didn't curd. Also rennet tabs vs liquid.
You need to use a lot more lemon juice than citric acid. Something like 1/3 cup juice per gallon milk, maybe even a little more. With citric, it's about 1.5 tsp per gallon. Liquid rennet works better for me, it's more consistent. The tablets work, but you don't know how old they are and if they're still good. If you dissolve them in cold water and they still don't work, then likely they're too old.
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Which brings me to my last question at this time: Why couldn't you build a press that would press 4 molds at once, which are in a square pattern? It seems that the weight would be distributed, so it would take more total. But, it came to my mind and hadn't seen a discussion on it yet.
You can do that, sure. Most of us don't make cheese in those volumes, and only do 3-5 gal batches at a time, so there's simply no need for more advanced presses. Or we stack the molds on on top of each other.
While it is true that quite a few members here make cheeses in 4-5gallon batches, my intent when I built my Dutch press was to have the ability to press larger moulds if the need arose. Some might call my calculations and intentions overkill. No, just me looking down the road. https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,4026.0.html (https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,4026.0.html)
Other members have built presses that also look capable of handling what you intend: FarmerJD, sominus.
It doesn't have to be expensive or complicated. There are a lot of ideas on this forum and the issue of pressing power has been discussed at length. Search around and I'm sure you'll find what you're looking for in the way of information.
-Boofer-
Boof,
As a man I REALLY like that big press pic.....what a whopper!
Thanks for the link to your earlier thread. I had planned on making a simple stackable for time sake, but I can definitely see making an off the wall or a dutch like yours. Is the one above a british design?
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Linuxboy,
Here's more detail. I have shallow well water, which goes through a softener, then reverse osmosis. I used tap cool water on a hot day, not ice cold. Citric acid and rennet both dissolved well. Rennet is tablet "Junket" without a date, so could be ancient. Perhaps the name describes how well it works?
The consistency of the curd would be a lot like lemon cheese. Cutting the curd really wasn't terribly possible since it kinda just fell apart into various sized curd clumps. Everything else seemed ok. The recipe was just shredded after I got done, meaning, didn't really use it. I think I'll try the one on this site with the Thermophilic culture. That would delete one obstacle (and perhaps make another). After adding citric acid, should anyting happen? Since it is an acidifying agent, shoudn't it start to curd? The Mozz. did stretch, but I could imagine it was somewhat stiff. It'll be interesting to see what happens the second time around.
Sounds like I could use a pH tester and more experience. Sure did have fun, despite the issues.
If that rennet didn't set the milk, then it's old. That fresh Jersey milk is really fantastic stuff, it should have worked for you unless you're pasteurizing it at high temps. Are you pasteurizing?
Here (https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,2246.0.html) is my setup during a cheddar make. I have a tank with a hot water heater element in the bottom and the 25 gal pot fits nicely inside it. Here (https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,2205.0.html) is a pic of it and my press. If you did want to press multiple cheeses, the best way would be to stack them; that way the pressure isn't divided among them. Linux is right about the rennet. I don't use anything but liquid now.
I have only used tablet rennet, but not junket. From what I understand, even all the beginner books say never to use Junket (and those books are usually short on prohibitions).
I used Junket rennet exclusively for over a year and had great results with it - don't just discard it because of the name.
Do you have access to water that hasn't gone through the softener? or you could try buying some bottled water for dissolving your rennet to see if that would make a difference. Also, when doubling recipes, not all ingredients increase at the same rate for the same effect.
What was your source for the citric acid? Was it labelled for food use?
Just a few things to think about. I've had great luck with the thermophilic recipe, most often using yogurt as my culture. It really is a superior product, which your raw milk truly "deserves".
Hang in there!
Quote from: linuxboy on June 21, 2010, 07:58:11 PM
If that rennet didn't set the milk, then it's old. That fresh Jersey milk is really fantastic stuff, it should have worked for you unless you're pasteurizing it at high temps. Are you pasteurizing?
Nope, raw milk.
I think perhaps one strike against me is I don't start to cool my milk until done milking, which depending of how the cow does could be 30 plus minutes.
That's not a strike. Best way to make cheese from raw milk is to use it right out of the cow while it's still warm.
Quote from: Nitai on June 22, 2010, 03:11:33 AM
I have only used tablet rennet, but not junket. From what I understand, even all the beginner books say never to use Junket (and those books are usually short on prohibitions).
I'm skeptical!
Quote from: MrsKK on June 22, 2010, 03:25:42 AMWhat was your source for the citric acid? Was it labelled for food use?
We bought it in bulk due to the huge amount of canning we do. So, there's no distinction.
Quote from: MrsKK on June 22, 2010, 03:25:42 AMwhen doubling recipes, not all ingredients increase at the same rate for the same effect.
Hmm..it seems I always get into this perdicament. I have bigger family, so I do things on a bigger scale. Is there some rule of thumb to use to multiply a recipe? Or is it more a pH issue?
Quote from: MrsKK on June 22, 2010, 03:25:42 AMI've had great luck with the thermophilic recipe, most often using yogurt as my culture. It really is a superior product, which your raw milk truly "deserves".
Thanks for the info!
Quote from: Sailor Con Queso on June 22, 2010, 07:00:17 PM
That's not a strike. Best way to make cheese from raw milk is to use it right out of the cow while it's still warm.
I am storing up milk for days in the fridge so I'm not constantly making cheese (or my wife that is). Since I am not cooling it right away, and using it days later, could the bacterial count be sabotaging my cheese making efforts?
Seems like a lot of variables and I'm not even making anything difficult. ;)
Quote from: MrsKK on June 22, 2010, 03:25:42 AM
I used Junket rennet exclusively for over a year and had great results with it - don't just discard it because of the name.
I stand corrected :)
Define "not cooling right away". Raw milk has natural lactic bacteria present and the bacteria count can certainly go up if the milk sits for extended periods without cooling. And that bacterial count will go up naturally over a few days anyway even with refrigeration - milk spoils even in the frig. So, three suggestions.
1- Use less starter bacteria with raw milk. You'll have to figure out what works for your milk but I use about 25% less when I'm using raw milk.
2- A pH meter can help tell you the "condition" of your milk. The pH should be around 6.6. If it is lower than that, then the natural bacteria may be starting to produce a little lactic acid. That is NOT necessarily a bad thing depending on how low the pH is. Then you may have to back off on the starter even more. LOTS of European cheesemakers use ONLY the natural bacteria in their milk. That's why we can't truely duplicate many of them.
3- Make more cheese and more often. ;)
When my cow was early in her first lactation, I wasn't great at getting all of the milk out of her, so sometimes it took a few days for me to have enough to make a batch of cheese. (I always make 5 gallon batches) One time, I was making citric acid mozzerella and the oldest milk in the batch was a full 7 days old. It did not set up well and it was grainy, as I remember.
A fellow member of another forum mentioned having the same trouble and it turned out that we both used some "old" milk. For your next batch, try using fresher milk and see how it turns out. I think that the older raw milk is, the more acidic it becomes, which can give some trouble.
Don't get discouraged!
I have read recommendations not to use raw milk older than three days, but I think it might be a bit conservative, depending on conditions. I too have used week old milk, but considering all our cheeses were bad back then, we couldn't tell the difference :o
I am sure there are occasionally issues with older milk but as Sailor said, you can tell it with a ph meter or even with your tongue and some experience. I always use some milk that is from 4 to seven days old in every make. My ph at the start is always 6.5 to 6.7. I suppose the mixture of some old and some fresh may help, but I have not had issues relating to it.
Do you ever have problems with cream not mixing back in at that age, JD? I find after 4 or 5 or 6 days it can be difficult to get the cream to mix in.
Yea especially with it being so cold, but it mixes in well after I add fresh milk which is warm. That may be why I occasionally have a mottled look to my cheese.
Just the thought of that thick layer of cold cream makes my mouth water though. I drop a tablespoon into every cup of coffee I drink. I love to pour it over my fresh peaches, or make ice cream out of it with my fresh eggs. I think I just gained 5 lbs from thinking about it. ;D
Quote from: Sailor Con Queso on June 22, 2010, 09:36:32 PM
Define "not cooling right away".
I milk, stain and cool, which from start to finish may take 30 or more minutes (still getting used to sore hands). I've heard of people milking into a bucket which is on ice. Don't know if its worth the bother, but worth the question in my book. I used to buy my milk from my neighbor who has a dairy. So, his go right into the bulk tank and cool immediately. Stays fresh 7 days, no funny taste. We had kept some longer, but started to get a little "malty." Thanks for all the advice Sailor! I looked at pH meters and they are a little salty. Know of a good one for a good price?
Quote from: MrsKK on June 23, 2010, 02:29:31 AMDon't get discouraged!
Thanks for the encouragement! I'm doing well and gearing up for a rerun this week, so far I have 8 gallons, but by the time I get my rennet and starter culture from cheesemaker.com I may have 12. I decided on powderd calf rennet due to increased shelf life, but if I'm making this much cheese, that may not matter a whole bunch.
30 minutes is definitely not going to cause any problems.
Quote from: Sailor Con Queso on June 23, 2010, 08:37:27 PM
30 minutes is definitely not going to cause any problems.
Thanks Sailor. BTW second batch of Mozzarella flopped and saved again. I just ordered a pH meter. With this batch I was a real pasty curd--not acidic enough I think. I think the pH tester will fill in a lot of blanks for me. I really don't think I'm getting enough acidification, don't think I'm having too much of a problem with rennet. This is a gut feeling.
Quote from: Nitai on June 22, 2010, 09:05:52 PM
Quote from: MrsKK on June 22, 2010, 03:25:42 AM
I used Junket rennet exclusively for over a year and had great results with it - don't just discard it because of the name.
I stand corrected :)
I too used Junket for nearly 30 years without problem although I will admit to quicker firmer curds with animal rennet. I find Junket about equal to veggie rennet.
if you can post some pictures, everytree, people can probably give you some better guidance.
3rd batch LEMON CHEESE :-[ Did a double 5-gallon batch of Mozz. Junket 2.5 tabs per 5 gallons worked before, but those batches were botched/saved (and did stretch). Well, I forgot to buy more junket the night before, my powdered calf rennet hadn't come, so I tried 1.5 tabs junket each bach. Obviously not enough. I believe I over acidified and nadda on coag. I did actually try 170 degree water bath, but alas, it just did nothing but irritate me. I wouldn't recomend heating something that isn't sticking together as a curd. It's just a waste of time.
Well, that was last week. This week I have 15 gal of 4 or less day old raw milk; Thermophilic culture (T61?); powdered calf rennet (says I only have to at 1/8 tsp, must be some good stuff); and a pH meter. One let down is that I just read some threads on pH and temp, so I hope I didn't just waste 60$.
What I haven't found are any recipies that have pH markers for Thermophilic culture. Can find pH for spinning, but not for adding rennet. I also haven't been able to find any info on 5 gallon batches and thats just plain frustrating to read nothing but 1-2 gallon recipies. I am swimming in recipies that don't match my conditions. I saw a thread that mentioned 6.4 for adding rennet, but I'd sure like a confirmation. Well, I think I'll just make 5 gallons today and revisit the issue of 15 gallons tomorrow.
Also, finally got a fridge, so I'm cooling the milk in the freezer and then transferring it to the fridge. Holds like 18 gallons, just wish I had that many 1 gal glass containers.
Hope someone is online that can give me a hand before I have to go back home and away from internet.
I have been having better results by letting the milk ripen more before adding rennet for mozz. It results in less retained calcium in the curd and a softer mozz. I rennet mozz at 6.35-6.4. You need the TA61 and a little yogurt or Lactobacillus helveticus or Lactobacillus buglaricus to make mozz.
Take a look at my howto. http://www.wacheese.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=48 (http://www.wacheese.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=48)
Yep it's TA61. With 5 gallons mult x5? I think I may have some yogurt from the store with the approp culture, how much to add if no buttermilk?
The yogurt helps to give a slightly better mouthfeel and faster acid buildup. Also consumes some residual sugar. Not absolutely necessary, but it helps. Add 1/4 cup yogurt/ gallon. For 5 gal milk, you need 1/2 tsp of TA61. The times in my howtos are a general guide - the pH is the driving decision factor. It may take more or less time.
thanks linuxboy. We'll give it a whirl!
Well, I just wanted to give everyone that contributed to this thread an update on my cheesemaking.
SUCCESS!
For my first 10 gallon batch I did citric acid and powdered calf rennet. Didn't want to change too much at once. Did great! Couple things were off though. My pH tester (which is not adjusted by temp) was reading very acidic. By that I mean that fresh milk was like in the 5 range. This was something I couldn't quite figure out until I read some other threads about temp affecting pH. Second, I added by rennet and this stuff went to town! 2 minutes (or less) and clean break in 6 minutes. MY FIRST CLEAN BREAK!!! It was so cool. Turned out great.
Second 10 gallon batch used linuxboy's recipe. Didn't have any cultured buttermilk, and had to buy some yogurt, but I felt this turned out better. Taste was a bit better, especially after a couple days. With this had a pretty normal floccation point and clean break. Everything went well. Oh, also, I recalibrated my pH tester at 90 degrees, and it was more in line with the pH markers.
Thanks everyone for all of your input.
That's fantastic! Congrats! Hope you have lots more cheesemaking successes.
Congrats EGT!
Yeee-Haaawwww!