I am just breaking ground on an underground cave. Having done a bunch of reading, I figure I can age about 2000 Kg( 2 tons) in a 250ft² cave for a bit over 90 days with lots of shelves.
- 4-10ft underground
-I have a source of pine board so that will be the shelves.
-We build our walls here out of granite blocks, so it will be cavelike
-Going to use a CoolBot on a LG split air conditioner so I'll be ok with temps
-I can't go quite to a barrel ceiling but it will be pretty well curved. 10 ft walls before the curve
-Double doors, concrete floor, gutter down both long sides
-humidity I am still looking for a recording hygrometer
Air exchange is something I'm not quite sure about, how much? how often?
I've found nothing in the way of plans, designs or volumes needed for air.
I have visited a few nice caves, natural ones are pretty well done by Mother nature, man made ones always seem stuffy. a feeling I would like to fix if possible.
- Humidity I usually have plenty of but I will need some system to get me through our dry winters.
So much jealousy!
I have two "caves" (fridge and freezer). One (for blues) is 15 min from my house. The other (for all other cheeses) is 1 hour and 45 min. I worry about my darlings in far off caves...
Joe - Why do you feel the need to use a CoolBot and air conditioner?
I have been recording the underground temps for about a year. We have been running between 15 ºC just recently, and this is the first week of winter, with a high in January, our summer of 23 º.
The A/C unit seems enough to keep the temp in the 11ºC max range and uses allot less energy and1/3 the price of a walk-in reefer unit.
Open to ideas. this is why I'm putting these things out there, need comments
Sailor - One point, in Seattle the ground holds the cool of Winter, here seems to hold the hot of Summer. That being said, I think that once I get the soil surrounding my walls down to 10ºC, it will keep there easily. I will be almost 5 ft deep at the shallowest.
Here's a link to a study done about cheese caves. It's at the right hand side:
http://www.silverymooncheese.com/ (http://www.silverymooncheese.com/)
There's a lot of good and useful information in the writings of Peter Dixon, mainly in issues Spring 2002, Spring 2006 and Summer 2007:
http://www.dairyfoodsconsulting.com/publications.shtml (http://www.dairyfoodsconsulting.com/publications.shtml)
I love my Coolbot
Oude Kaas
thanks for the link, just the type of detail I need to start calculations
Ohhhhhh....I want one of those! I don't think our county building codes would allow it. There have been a few wineries that have tried to get them through, but without much luck. This is earthquake country. I've thought of just going for it anyway and fill it in and pay the fine if I get caought, but I think that the fines are pretty hefty.
Pix Please!
~ C.
Tropit, I have good friends in your county that bought a home with an excavated/underground bomb shelter. It had a stairway leading down about 5 feet, a concrete dome/roof, and 2 small rooms leading off either side of the stairs. It was always cool and dank and the kids used to play in it. I always thought it would make a neat wine cellar, and now, cheese cave. Unfortunately they permanently closed it up.
Perhaps one could get a permit for building a 'bomb shelter' and use it for other things. :)
You need to calculate your fresh air volume based on the air speed and number of desired air changes. Peter Dixon has some the most useful info on the subject. 2 Tons of cheese will produce massive amounts of ammonia, which is heavier than air and highly corrosive to most any equiment you'll use in the cave. You will need to size your AC for the fresh air load on the worst day, you can get climate data from ASHRAE for your area. I have seen many commercial caves, I don't think I have seen one yet that worked perfectly. Also, check with your local authority if you'll be using the cave for commerical product, they will most likely require a pasteurizer for the wooden shelves.
Congrats on the cave must be a wonderful feeling!
Here is the first step in our underground cave. Reminds me of the days I owned a boat. A boat is a hole in the water in which to pour money. A Cheese Cave, hopefully unlike a boat, will be a hole in the ground in which to safely store ours.
Quote from: coffee joe on July 09, 2010, 01:09:02 PM
Here is the first step in our underground cave. Reminds me of the days I owned a boat. A boat is a hole in the water in which to pour money. A Cheese Cave, hopefully unlike a boat, will be a hole in the ground in which to safely store ours.
Any way you can give us a rundown of what you've done already, and the major steps coming up? Great picture.
As to what has been done here so far, is summed up mostly in planning and design.
The structure is going to be rock walls with barrel ceiling of poured concrete.
4' of earth on top is a structural challenge.
Double entry with sanitary section before entry into the vault.
Airflow calculations took us a while but I think this has been handled.
Foundations and drainage are the next steps.
24,000 BTU Split A/C with Coolbot for cold as underground ground temps average around 60ºF
Very cool Joe.
Great thread, links and picture, really puts it in context!
That's a big cave. I've heard of burying a modified shipping container to use for a wine cellar. You're looks even bigger...I'm jealous.
Actually, once done, this will be about the size of a shipping container 13' X 24' , we need space around to work. There will be 5' of soil above the top of the roof. After it is all done, we backfill.
Well...it looks great so far. What will the front look like?
While I'm still designing how this will look in the end, I know I need to fill the front with a wall to hold all that earth. Our traditional "building blocks" are hand hewn granite blocks from our quarry. The entire cave will be made out of these. The photo below is an idea of what the finish will be inside and out.
Wow, amazing. Are you keeping a natural dirt floor and/or whitewashing the walls like the Europeans do it?
I will be using polished concrete for the floor, we do have health inspectors here too! As to whitewash, I am hoping not to need this but lime is easy enough and a probable requirement. At least Lime won't give me weird odors to deal with.
As to the health inspector, he is watching us go through the design and construction, not quite at ease with the whole idea, but is going to let us continue with the understanding that our product will be thoroughly tested. The porosity of the granite bothers him to no end. It is just that porosity that will be our primary humidity control, so I hope he doesn't make me tile my nice walls.
While it may seem like I know what I'm doing, I am doing this project based on having been to a few natural caves in Europe and reading allot. I was pleased to be shown the Estrella cave in Washington as well. Construction and Cows I understand!
I know there are pitfalls in doing this type of cave, and would appreciate any on this forum with experience helping out.
Françoi?
Air flow I have a max of 17 X cave volume per day, more than I should need and controllable for less.
All air, besides when I open the door, will enter through a heat exchange made of 6"PVC pipe wrapped around and under the building, air coming in will be filtered and ground temp.
Temp control I am planning on a 24,000 BTU Split A/C with a coolbot. Our deep ground temp is about 62º-65º year round. So I'll be using a 2" foam insulation on sides and roof to help keep to 53º - 55ºF airconditioners don't control that low, at least not here.
Ground level air flush for NH4 will be manual with a computer type fan on a timer.
Hot air flush at the roof line will be convection and fan over ride if needed.
Humidity and temp will be monitored by an Oregon Scientific unit that I hope to make adaptable to an automatic water mist/spray against the stone walls.
Entry will be sterile conditions with footwear change, hair bonnets, hand sink, double doors with the interior door being sliding glass thermal pane. Cheese Entry/Exit will be through a small opening away from main door so I don't need to open the big door. These items are the health inspector talking.
What am I missing?
I have consulted on a number of caves, for both farmstead and larger commercial production. Where do I begin?
Air flow should ideallly be based on air speed (emulating a natural cave), as a minimum you want 5 changes per hour. You have it right that you should be exhausting from the floor and dumping fresh air in from the top (hopefully on opposite sides of the room).
I personally wouldn't use a residential air conditioneer as they aren't built for high humidity, mold spores and ammonia, not to mention the fact that you will have to hot rod it to get temp control. You'll be amazed at how abused the equipment will get in a cave environment.
The big question everyone always has is fresh air. While I orignally developed the ground sink intake concept and calculations that everyone seems to be using, everyone seems to forget two important points:
1. I intended it to be used in a cave with no electricity, a solar chimney was the exhaust and the intake had to be totally passive in cooling.
2. It is inherently uncontrollable. I knew this designing it and it is calculated for worst case conditions.
If I had a choice and electricity on the site I would use a proper ERV and be done with it.
Your last question around humidity control. I had the best luck with a digital Honeywell unit onnected to a well water line (and booster pump relay) that fed agriculture misting lines. Be sure you use a fan lockout otherwise when your cooling fan comes on it will trigger low humidity and your mister then comes on....the result is wet mist being blown around the cave and condensing on your wheels, not pretty.
Any more questions, just ask.
Been a while but we finally got the foundations in and starting on the walls. Everything pictured is still below the floor line.
Another month gone by and we finally have the inner walls up, the thermal floor made of Autoclave Cellular Concrete blocks is done as well. Next step, concrete the floor, install air flow pipes, insulation in the walls and backfill. The barrel ceiling will be the last step, with luck, a month from now.
I've never used the ACC blocks before but what a great product. For walls, or under floors an easy to use product that gives great thermal protection anywhere drywall can't be used.
It's really starting to come together - go get em Joe!
A couple months later, and we are ready to pour the roof of our cave. If all goes according to plan, Mid January we can start aging CHEESE! Certification will, hopefully, be done by then as well.
This is INCREDIBLE! Where are you located again, Joe?
And where is that high up picture taken from?
Kristin
Kristin,
We are in Minas Gerais, Brazil. The first pic is from the hillside across from the cave.
Very cool Joe. How do you plan on waterproofing the roof?
The roof is going to be 6" of poured concrete. together with the slope, water shouldn't get in.
There is going to be a 2" HD foam cover glued to the roof as well for insulation and 5ft of soil above this. Humidity, I expect, will be pretty much naturally maintained at around 80%. I have installed sprayers along the walls as well if needed.
The goal is to make an ideal environment for Cheddar. SAFE Cheddar!
The recent cases of Morningland and Estrella are giving me lots to consider.
JD, this(Product Safety??) may be a subject for a new major heading. There seem to be quite a few of us on this wonderful forum going commercial.
Joe,
For the most part, the problems at both Morningland and Estrella seem to have come from a breakdown in basic sanitary protocol. You have obviously thought your operation through. So be sure that you develop a formal daily working protocol and train your workers well. It's easy to get "comfortable" with the daily grind.
After a few more months of work we are finally getting ready to start making cheese! Here are a few shots of the Cave and the make room.
The cave, still needs the A/C unit and blower as well as few finishing touches but it is really great to have that "almost there" feeling.
Our vat is a 300 liter double wall unit that I am heating with hot water, for now, but I think some sort of steam will be required.
Now for the hard part, consistency in the cheese.
All I can say is - WOW! Looking good.
Quote from: MrsKK on February 08, 2011, 03:11:52 AM
All I can say is - WOW! Looking good.
Double WOW. That is just stunning. Thanks for the pictures. Very very inspiring.
Excellent done.
There is 8 wall presses. Factory or home made? Side, clouse-up foto would be great.
Looks like it's too many presses for 2 tons of cave?
Now that's a cheese cave! Great execution, Joe.
I can just imagine after a couple decades the microflora and the reputation that could grow with such an engineering achievement. Onward and upward now! Make some cheese. Fill the cave.
-Boofer-
Thanks Boofer and others,
CoolBot installed on a 24,000 BTU AC unit. Keeping 50ºF easily. All that is left is Shelves and Cheese!
Joe, I've been watching this thread, and again, extraordinarily impressive.
My only reservation on the coolbot is a concern for excessive airflow over the cheeses. Otherwise, it seems like a great solution. Do you have any thoughts?
Coffee Joe, you are the envy of every kid on the block! Congratulations on your beautiful dairy and cave! I hope you do so well that some day you need to build a second cave!
Hello Joe
I hope all is going well in your factory! how did the coldbot work for you? I am building a 10'x10'x10' above ground cold room inside an existing building, I will put 8'' of insulation and concrete walls and floors, coldbot and 6000 BTU air conditioner. any advise on my plan?
A bigger air conditioner will work better and use less electricity.
Real nice cheese production/aging facility Joe. Congrats and good luck!
thank you Sailor! how much bigger would you go for a 10'x10'?