I should know better than messing with the surface of a surface-ripened cheese but in any event... I wanted to make Reblochons and mature them a little more smelly than usual so I added yeast (KL 71) to the milk, salt-rubbed over the first few days and then began a brine wash regiment. Traditional Reblochon calls for plain 3%. I added a touch of B.Linen (LR3?), Yeast (KL71) and Geo (Geo 15).
I would think that at 55-60F and 85%RH this should have been, done, done and done by now (week 5) but instead, it seems that the geo is receding and B.Linen it taking over. The rind color is more brown than orange. The aroma is yeasty. The cheese feels like a semi-soft Tomme: It is getting slightly softer but no signs of turning creamy. I now stopped the bacterial brine regiment and moved to the traditional 3% brine (with just a bit Geo 15 boost it against the B.Linen craziness). I apply it 3x/week with a sponge. (Light scrubbing then wiping excess moisture)
Is this normal? What am I doing wrong? Humidity? Temp? Should I just wait longer? Maybe it's the shape of the cheese? (Smaller diameter than a Reblochon but taller).
Here is a photo from yesterday:
I think those cheeses look perfect! Are you thinking they aren't soft enough?
I thought the idea is that the Geo grows first to prepare the way for the B. linens, which then takes over. Do I have it wrong?
Here is a pic of my first Reblochons, made 13 June. They started out all white, then gradually the orange is coming to dominate.
Let us know how they taste when you cut into one.
Pam
Thanks Pam!
Well that's good to know that they look right, but usually Reblochons are covered with lots of white when they are ready. They shouldn't be dark brownish orange all around. Also, yes - they don't feel soft enough to guarantee creaminess and this is week 6. How long do you age yours? What do they smell like now? Have you used any yeast in the milk and/or wash?
Worth mentioning that my recipe did not include the traditional thermophilic.
This is my first attempt at Reblochon so I'm not really sure about aging. My target is to age for about 5 weeks. I've only eaten this cheese a couple of times, so I don't exactly remember what it's supposed to be like. (If you saw the cheese selection available here in western Colorado, after that food show you attended, you would weep!)
I added B. linens, P. candidum and Thermo B to the milk. I have put some Geo in a few of my washings.
Where did you get your recipe?
Haha.. and to think that Colorado is where the cheese society is located!
Proper Reblochon should have a very thin rind and super-creamy paste. So creamy in fact that the thin rind often collapses into it. It isn't particularly very stinky, the color is white with red spotting but not totally red, and the shape is in the proportion of a disc - short and wide.
My recipe isn't a traditional Reblochon but more my own rendition of it... I took the recipe in 200 easy cheeses and added some tips from people here and then I went to watch the 'Cheese Slices' DVD and got a glimpse of how they do it, followed by about 10 different videos of AOC Reblochon - to get the technique right. I ended up deciding to add more B.Linen and yeast and drop the thermo and shorten ripening time - to kind of re-do what they did at the monasteries that invented it.
Looks like we are all a bit confused about these reblochons. I have some making too that I don't know what to do with and they are 7 weeks old now. They got a bit squished. I knocked the white fussys down a lot but I thought they needed to be harder. Mine are like a really really thick pudding inside. Do you eat it with a spoon?
These actually look like PROPER REBLOCHONS!!! This is the look I've been waiting for! White with some orange spotting, disk-like proportions, rind that's thin enough to collapse over the paste which is suppose to be very soft and creamy! At what point did they turn soft for you? They look ready to eat! How do they smell?
It's funny that Pam, you (Debi), Mark and Myself all made Reblochons out of a million cheese possibilities at the very same time
I know I was inspired by Sues post awhile back but didn't get around to it for a few weeks. I thought these were totally off because they got soft and flat. I beleive they started getting soft about 5 to 6 weeks but I was on vacation for 10 days and came home and they were feeling soft. Are they supposed to be runny? I had them sitting out for about 1/2 an hour to wash the containers and one split (in the back) and it looked like thick banana pudding coming out of the crack so I put them back in the cave right away.
This is what they looked like when they were first made so I was thinking I must have really messed up going away during the ripening. This is a good make then? I have yet to find these things in a store anywhere.
I still don't know how to eat them. ???
They are welcome on a cheese plate or as a casual snack, great on sandwiches and pair wonderfully with tart pears or apples. The French have a traditional winter dish of mash potatoes with tons of cream and butter (what else?) shallots and just-fried beacon in a casserole dish, covered with large pieces of an entire wheel of Reblochon and browned in the oven. DELICIOUS! (but heavy so better for winter)
Here are 4 different Reblochons - all are proper and typical but as you can see they differ A-LOT in texture, size and rind:
(http://api.ning.com/files/O2nBPR6LyF4XclfqKaBJf95stMQTkGEP4e1ZD8BS-d9DxT5djo8*K*R-KX*U3NvNDu7IiEt86cBaQ7DQUYgny-CFPOXTgVhU/PICT0008.JPG)
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6b/Reblochon_AOC.jpg/800px-Reblochon_AOC.jpg)
(http://blog.ideasinfood.com/.a/6a00d83451f83a69e201310f4ed8d1970c-500wi)
(http://www.chamonixchalet.info/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/reblochon.jpg)
Debi, those look gorgeous!
I was also inspired by Sue's post. Have been wanting to make it for a while. It's part of my effort to perfect these washed rind types.
Pam
Wow, I just looked at Sue's Reblochons at an old thread and they indeed look great! She uses raw milk. Interesting that she too washes with the nontraditional solution that had b.linen in it instead of simple 3% brine.
I didn't use thermophilic in my recipe, but I did use yeast which will give it some flavor and aroma character and those signature small eyes - as well as help developing the surface for growth of B.Linen and Geo.
Just a comment about Sue's technique though - Reblochon is not traditionally pressed and there is no wait for first flip. What I saw in several French AOC videos is the cheesemakers scoop the curd into a cheesecloth-lined mold by hand, fold the cloth over the top, give it a light squeeze (not so much to get whey out, more to knot the curd together), then immediately undress it, flip and re-dress. It's quite amazing as this seconds-old cheese is very flabby and can fall apart in mid flip if the flipping takes long enough for it to collapse - so they do the whole thing scoop-dress-undress-flip-redress in less than 20 seconds and a single motion.
Did you follow her recipe? I wonder about the rennet quantity in it. Seems like half the normal amount. Did you use double-strength?
Thanks Yoav and Pam. Sue's did look like this so I thought I'd blown these cheeses because they went flat lumpy and pudding like. I will have to try one on someting his weekend. I think I have potatoes in the basement. If it's already sort of melted to start with will it harden when cooked? I am new to these French cheeses.
I did press lightly with one mold on to of the next while I filled the remaining molds. Partly because I don't have a very big sink (a had 7 molds in there) and needed room and partly to get all the curds in the molds. I did spray with b. lindens the second and third day but barely had a dusting left in the packet. I did not spray after that but brushed off most off the white fuzzy growth so it didn't over power the cheeses. That stuff grows like ... hmm mold? LOL
Man, I wish mine had come out that beautiful orange color! I got the LR series b. linens. They are very pale still...
Mark, how old are yours now? Do you have some pics?
Pam
Mark, post a photo, let's do some cheese forensics!
I used LR LYO on mine. I think I made these a week or two before yours. If you have lots of white Geo everywhere, you can expect it to recede and make room for the orange underneath. Play with washing, salt and humidity and it will come out. I remember you mentioned getting some KL71 before - did you use it on this batch? I used it in both the cheese and the bacterial wash, which frankly game me more orange than I expected...
I suppose I spoke too soon, and I guess the b. linens is just slower to show up than I had thought.
This is one from my 6/5 batch that I had too hastily given up on. I thought since I had made it without the KL71, the b. linens wouldn't develop right, so I wrapped it in cellophane and stuck it in my second cave. I had intended on forgetting about it until after the 60 days and eating it as simply "cheese" but I peeked in on it and was pleasantly surprised.
It was actually a little darker than this, but I gave it a wash to knock down the geo which was building up and lost a little of the orange. It smells great; just as it should.
It makes me wonder, though, how long should I be washing for? I stopped washing this one for a few weeks, and it is still coming nicely.
Looks very nice Mark. I did the same thing my geo was going crazy and nothing much on the b. lindens so Iknocked them way down and the color started to show up finally.
I think we are all a bit too paranoid about B.Linen not growing due to Geo but the fact is that Geo prepares the surface for it and once it's ready (2-4 weeks after the geo bloom), it will come out and knock the geo out on its own naturally. (and with the help of salt from rubbing or wash). My fear was that it actually grew too fast on mine all of a sudden between week 3.5 and 5, knocking the geo out almose enturely. 2 washes of plain 3% brine with a pinch of geo brought some geo back. Mark, I think this one gets washed between week 2 and week 4, but let your nose do the job. It looks great. Is it sticky or dry?
It's sticky. And soft, or at least softening.
yea, i think it's the wrap.
I checked mine yesterday and they are "softening" but still firmish. Next time I won't press at all. My cheeses are raw milk; I'm hoping they will be edible around 5 weeks.
Yoav, where can I watch those AOC videos you've mentioned? I've looked on the web, haven't found anything yet.
Also, thanks for the cheese paper source. I might try that for my next cams, just to compare.
I have been just using freezer paper all week. The description sounds about the same. Is there a big difference?
I doubt it. The manufacturer makes it sound high tech, but I don't know that it would make worlds of difference.
I am in contact with the manufacturer. they also sent me a full sample pack. It's like a breathable wrapping paper that is loosely stuck to a layer of very thin nylon - which is the part that comes in contact with the cheese. The nylon part feels like the type of nylon that is used in delis when they cut meat or smoked fish in paper-thin slices and give it to you for tasting or use to warp it before they wrap it in paper. It's just a much thinner and more absorbant version of the commercial paper I got a while back from thecheesemaker.com and others.
Pam - I didn't press my cheese at all. I will see about finding those videos again. Need to write a query, translate it to french and then google it at the video section of Google France... It's there. But the best piece I saw was in the DVD of the Australian series Cheese Slices - what an amazing series.
Shoot, just checked on the Roblechons now. The Geo seems to be recovering... but they seem to become harder, not softer. What on earth is going on??? I feel like I made Tomme. I kept them in high humidity in the past few days thinking it's going to soften them but it did the opposite. How is this possible???
I set one out for about 20 minutes and cut open one of mine today and its really goopy. I didn't care much for the flavor by itself kind of blah (I like sharp hard cheeses) but I made that Tartiflette potatoe thing and it was really good! I decided it needed colot though and added some green beans. Seems to be getting redder in the freezer paper too.
Wow! It's super orange in the middle. Did you use annatto?
The tartiflette looks yummy! I know you must have bacon or lardons hiding somewhere in your kitchen lab :) did you use some?
I think you missed out on the texture though. It seems "starchy", "heavy"; no eyes. Use yeast and substitute the starter culture with one that develops eyes. Eyes usually go beyond texture and bring all kinds of aromatic and flavorful gases with them (even if they are all gone by the time you open the cheese). Without them it's a bit like drinking coke that lost its fizz.
Mark - no annatto. Just raw milk. My cheeses always turn orange. They are very dark yellow but I think the light makes it seem darker than it is.
Yoav - I didn't use belly bacon I used Canadian bacon (also homemade). I found recipes with both and thought the cheese would be oily enough (it was). When it was cold it had some small eyes but it melted really fast in this heat. My kitchen was about 89 degrees. It also seemed to get darker as it melted.
Hey Pam, I found one of those videos - Mark and Debi, this may be fun for you to watch too:
Le Reblochon Engagement Qualité Carrefour (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97iXiyeI5vg#ws)
My cheese is in the cave, wrapped for about 5-6 days now. Doesn't seem to get softer. I think it's an accidental Tomme. I really don't know what to think of them. They are at day 49 now.
The last one in the batch was tiny and made from whatever curd was left over. It is slightly softer than the others. I took the liberty to dunk it in Calvados (dunk, dry 8 hours, do this 3 times. Then when it awaits drying for the last time rubbed in some salt to help the rind re-grow and toughen). It is now wrapped too. Maybe my cave is too cold for them? They are at 55F-60F.
Do you guys put the wrapped ones in a humid box or just leave on the cave?
Looking at the video: It would seem that with all of those cheeses stacked up so high that they do not get wiped/washed/touched after they come out of the brine...onto the cheese board...and into the stack. Correct?
How is that possible?
Also, near the end of the video, when the cheese is cut open, it is evident that the outside...nearest the rind is slightly runny, but the inner core is firm.
So, Debi doesn't care for the flavor by itself but in cooking is okay. Anyone else share those tastes? Seems like a lot of folks here are making Reblochons. Has everyone making it tasted it before?
Thanks, irf, that video was very instructional in technique. Amazing. No, I don't parlez vous. ::)
-Boofer-
The first amazing thing I learned from it (and it took some practice) was how to turn a cheese that has only been in the mold a few seconds.
You are right; it doesn't seem like they touch the cheese too much. They just take it off the brine and put it on this spruce wood board (a traditional technique; the wood itself is very resistant to contaminents but can carry micro-organisms, yeast, geo and b.linen from years of aging cheese on it. I think they rely on the salt in the brine and the room conditions to dry it enough (in fact, this is a rather wet cheese during aging, but it does need initial rind to protect the paste moisture).
He does show in the video how he would rub a cheese during the affinage.
In another video that I've watched they hand salted them without brine. And so, even Reblochon AOC has more than one method of production.
Reblochon is one of my favorite cheeses. It has stinky b.linen aroma with something very grassy about it. This contrasts with a paste that is rather creamy and fat (traditionally, this is a second milking cheese so it's quite fat), it is nutty and mild, very versitile in cooking, cheese plates and great in sandwiches too. Truly joyful. It is near impossible to get in the states now because it is aged below 60 days and the French (to my understanding from a local cheese monger) have decided to "stop messing up their protected recipe to satisfy US Government pencil pushers". (Apparently Reblochon AOC was made for a while with a 60 day stabilized recipe for Whole Foods)
Any idea about my cheese questions?
If anyone has a reblochon mold, can they post a closeup pic of it? I want to see how many holes are in it.
Thanks for the video link, Yoav. All those cheeses... :'(
I didn't keep very good notes on my make, but I'm thinking I let them get too dry before going into the box. Mine are 5 weeks old today, I think I'll open one this week. Don't think they'll get any softer at this point. I'll post a picture when I cut into it.
(Thanks to your suggestion, I've started using a "make sheet" to make notes on and find I have much better record keeping now.)
@clherestian:
Here you go. This is the reblochon mold I got from Glengarry. I got it from there because it was the only place I found that sold a mold specifically for Reblochon. However, it seems like it is the exact same as the small tomme mold from the New England Cheesemaking Supply Co, and probably is available at other sites under different names.
I actually got 4 of them and the total price I paid for them is a bit less than just the molds, not even including shipping, from NECSC--even with the international shipping surcharge from Glengarry! All together, the molds, lids, and shipping from Glengarry was about US$60. One mold with lid from NECSC is ~US$17 not including shipping.
What's the radius? 4"? 5"?
Quote from: iratherfly on July 18, 2010, 10:32:45 PM
What's the radius? 4"? 5"?
Yeah, I second that. Why couldn't I just use my
standard 7-inch mould? Too thin? If that's too big, can I use my 4.5-inch camembert moulds? What is the regulation size of a Reblochon?
-Boofer-
The diameter is 5.3" (135mm), it's 2.6" (65mm) tall, cylindrical (not tapered) and is just slightly rounded at the bottom. According to my World Cheese Book, a Reblochon is typically 3.5 - 5" in diameter and 1" tall. I'd say that the 4.5" cam mold, the standard 7" mold and anything in between would work just fine.
Based on my estimates, for a 1" tall cheese in a 4.5" mold, use about 3qts of milk, for the 7" use 1.75 gal of milk per cheese.
Thanks for the pics, Mark.
Quote from: MarkShelton on July 19, 2010, 06:54:13 AM
The diameter is 5.3" (135mm), it's 2.6" (65mm) tall, cylindrical (not tapered) and is just slightly rounded at the bottom. According to my World Cheese Book, a Reblochon is typically 3.5 - 5" in diameter and 1" tall. I'd say that the 4.5" cam mold, the standard 7" mold and anything in between would work just fine.
Based on my estimates, for a 1" tall cheese in a 4.5" mold, use about 3qts of milk, for the 7" use 1.75 gal of milk per cheese.
Excellent. Sounds like I'm good to go as far as moulds I have on hand.
Now I wonder if I could do a Reblochon and not touch it as seen in the video? How high do you suppose the humidity is in that curing room with the stacks of shelved Reblochons?
How do they keep their discs from acquiring surface problems? Do they circulate the air in that curing room with a fan system?
-Boofer-
Great video, Yoav--I am wondering why there was no smearing of B-linens--are they ingrained in the aging wood? I could not imagine a Reblochon without B-linens. I've attached 2 pics--the first with P. Candidum innoculated into milk, and the second with just Geo. It is labeled as not available in US, as true Reblochon is made with raw milk (which I used), and needs to be aged over 60 days. This is one of my favorite cheeses--and the one (out of 20) that was the hands-down winner at my last tasting.
Traditionally Reblochon is made with geo but without inoculating or smearing with B. Linen. Just salt brine. The B.Linens appear naturally on their own if the aging is correct and the Geo bloomed and prepared the surface for them.
P.Candidum is not part of this recipe. It usually ages 42 to 49 days. For a while Whole food carried it and waited another two weeks to sell it until someone caught up with their trick
OK, cut into this last night, at 39 days old. I wrapped the other one in parchment paper and put it back in the ripening box. It is a mild cheese, texture very good. Quite a delicious cheese, I'll definitely make this again.
Question: I used 1.5 as my floc multiplier. On another current thread, there is a discussion about floc multipliers:cheese moisture content. If I think this should be a tad softer cheese, would I extend the time before cutting curds to accomplish this?
Thanks,
Pam
Yes, exactly; you can also cut the curds a little bigger. IIRC Reblochon is 3-4x.
Thanks, LB. I thought 1.5 was low for this type but had found it in 2 sources. I'll extend it next time.
I had the same situation Deb. I thought 1.5 was too low, but I kept seeing 1.5 so that's what I used. With the higher floc, I won't have as much milkfat loss when I cut.
Pam - this looks gorgeous! How does it smell? Yes, a bit more gooey and you would be perfect. (Also perhaps do a thinner traditional disk. May also have something with the maturation speed/quality).
Linuxboy - I wonder how come in Tomme over acidifying the milk makes for a dry chalky cheese and in Reblochon or Camembert it gives you that wonderful soft goo. Do you know?
I tried not to give it too much fluc time in this batch because I was afraid of dry chalky cheese as some of my past Tomme disasters. Is this why my Reblochons are not getting as soft as I want them? (I think they are day 53 now) I am a bit confused. I know that some Tommes should acidify in the press and not in the vat. I wonder if I should acidify Reblochons more in the vat too.
I am ready to declare the current Reblochons a bust ...but instead, I'll just rename them "Petit Tomme"; (Tomlochon?) as such they are quite a success. They have very complex stench now and after a few days in wrapping they are becoming softer and re-covering themselves with Geo and some blue-gray mold (probably courtesy of the Raw Milk Tomme next to them in the cave, covered with Mycodore). I think this would be an incredible cheese actually, just not Reblochon ::)
Quote from: mtncheesemaker(Pam) on July 22, 2010, 03:45:44 PM
OK, cut into this last night, at 39 days old. I wrapped the other one in parchment paper and put it back in the ripening box. It is a mild cheese, texture very good. Quite a delicious cheese, I'll definitely make this again.
Question: I used 1.5 as my floc multiplier. On another current thread, there is a discussion about floc multipliers:cheese moisture content. If I think this should be a tad softer cheese, would I extend the time before cutting curds to accomplish this?
Thanks,
Pam
That looks
great! It almost looks like the texture I'm expecting in my Esrom, but a little firmer.
How does it taste? Smell?
-Boofer-
Quote from: iratherfly on July 22, 2010, 11:49:55 PM
Linuxboy - I wonder how come in Tomme over acidifying the milk makes for a dry chalky cheese and in Reblochon or Camembert it gives you that wonderful soft goo. Do you know?
Sure, it's because the affinage process and maturation factors are different. With Tomme what you have it an initial solid knit to bond caseins together through colloidal calcium phosphate. This is the glue by which curds bond. Then you let the acid build up AFTER all those bonds are there. If you don't get a good knit initially because the bonds are weak what happens is that there's all this calcium all around the curds and it's left in there to be broken up but not as colloidal calcium. And what happens is that as the cheese ages, it influences the ability of the proteins to form a proper paste during proteolysis. so it's the initial knit that matters.
With camembert, it's a completely different maturation process where Geo eats lactic acid and releases all sorts of proteolytic enzymes. The strength there depends almost solely on the calcium content. That protein is so severely broken up by the mold enzymes that the as that proteolysis happens and the cheese turns to a goo, the calcium supports the cheese. If you ladle at a high pH, there will be less calcium degradation and the cheese will be a little firmer. Also, ladling of curds instead of cutting makes for a completely different curd. Also the final moisture content influences the rate of proteolysis.
If you were to eat a Tomme de Savoie with the black mold and the cheese was overacidified, it wouldn't be as noticeable as say, a tomme de bauges. Why? Savoie has mold, it softens the paste significantly.
I read this 3 times until I figured out what you are saying... It makes perfect sense. What would be the ideal pH levels in your opinion for Camembert with cut curd, Camembert with ladling, Reblochon, and for your average Tomme where I expect mold and a soft paste (such as Tomme Crayeuse)?
Now that I have a brand spankin' new Extech heavy duty pH meter it is perhaps time to revisit the pH measuring again. (I am ordering the flat surface low moisture probe too, suggested for cheese use)
Quote from: iratherfly on July 27, 2010, 09:54:48 AM
I read this 3 times until I figured out what you are saying... It makes perfect sense. What would be the ideal pH levels in your opinion for Camembert with cut curd, Camembert with ladling, Reblochon, and for your average Tomme where I expect mold and a soft paste (such as Tomme Crayeuse)?
Now that I have a brand spankin' new Extech heavy duty pH meter it is perhaps time to revisit the pH measuring again. (I am ordering the flat surface low moisture probe too, suggested for cheese use)
You had to read it 3 times? I had to read that 5 times to understand it. And I wrote the bloody thing. Crimey. Sorry.
Think about it like this: cheese is mostly about the calcium interaction:
- Initial action of rennet (enzymatic phase) to cleave k-caseins? It's to expose the other caseins and their calcium
- Bonding of as1, as2, b caseins? Those are calcium phosphate bonds.
- What makes those bonds happen? Free calcium in the milk, that's why we add CaCl2 to try and get a better bond.
- And then for acidity. Why do we preripen or ripen? To destroy some of those calcium bonds inside the micelle, which softens the final cheese, and makes the curd retain fat and moisture a little better.
- Why do we drain some cheeses at high pH and some at low? To time the relative degree of calcium degradation, which corresponds to acidity.
- Why do we cut some curd and ladle others? Curd size is more for moisture, but it does help with calcium retention.
- Why does curd fuse together again and knit? You guessed it, calcium bonds. You've just removed water to hit a final moisture target, and then bring the curd together again. That's why microfiltered cheese is made from milk with the target fats and solids already in it, no need to drain and bring curd together.
- Why do we salt or brine at around pH 5.4? Yep, again, the calcium has buffered the acid to such a point as to open up the micelles, which will make it possible for them to fuse and form a final paste after aging. If you don't do that and have high calcium, then need to use a bacteria with very active proteases, like thermophilic lactobacilli.
- Why do we add calcium to new brine? Same story, ionic balance between curd and solute.
- Why does cheesecloth stick? Yep (it's the calcium, mostly, relative moisture plays a part, but it's interactive not solely causal).
To put this into practice:
Cam is tricky, traditionally it is preripened overnight with something like .2% bulk equivalent, then repasteurized. Then ripened normally, then renneted, then ladled. The point of ladling is also tricky :). If you ladle at higher pH, say 6.3 the cam will be more stable. It will resemble more a stabilized cam because there will be more calcium. If you ladle at lower pH, say 6.0, it will age faster and be runny and gooey. This is assuming same affinage. Affinage has a lot to do with cams, esp temp. Lower temp = slower aging. Ladling vs cutting cam is really about moisture. To get something with a longer shelf life, target lower moisture and cut the curd.
tomme cut pH is a completely different story. It's the moisture and mold activity that gives tomme its soft paste. Moisture is due to high floc, low cook temp, and light press. Moisture gives it pliability, mold breaks down the proteins, makes it more soft.
You should use pH when starting out unless you have a mentor, because in the beginning, everything looks about the same, and you can have a .5 pH drop and not realize it. Takes time to understand and listen to what the milk and curds are telling you. The flat surface probes work well, easier to clean, as do ISFET.
That was totally informing,Linux--thanks so much for postingl. You do spend an inordinate amount of time educating us and I fully appreciate the wealth of information you provide. You are officially the "Big Cheese" of this website. (Along with Sailor, Deb and Francois, of course). My brie bows to you.
Well I cut another one of the reblochons tonight to see if it was any better after another few weeks wrapped in freezer paper. It's not as hot out so it stayed a bit firmer after sitting out for an hour. I think Alex said something about holes. There k hole until it melts.
I tried it again and I still don't like it. Kind of a slight bitter after taste on the back of my throat after eattng it. I even bought one from the Whole Food Store to compare and they taste very much alike except mine is way creamier tasting. I love the texture but not the taste. Still don't like those rinds! Yuck!
Boofer, sorry it took me a while to reply to your question. Honestly, I'm having a tough time describing my cheese.
It has a pretty faint B. linens smell, definitely there but not unpleasant. The cheese is very mild and I think the texture is firmer than it should be. I'm going to make it again with a longer floc time and see if it is softer. It's delicious in a sandwich, or cooked with potatoes and pancetta.
How is your Esrom doing? I've never tasted that particular cheese. Interesting how different all these washed rind types are!
Pam
Quote from: mtncheesemaker(Pam) on August 01, 2010, 05:26:20 PM
How is your Esrom doing? I've never tasted that particular cheese. Interesting how different all these washed rind types are!
Pam
Well, I'm not sure how it's doing since this is my first foray into washed rinds.
I'm posting to my Esrom thread right after this with a few lingering questions.
-Boofer-
Okay, I know it's been a long time but I've been traveling. Felt like I awed everyone on this thread the ending to the story.
As it turns out I was right; these Reblochons indeed took a strange turn. I think that initial milk acidity was wrong and they must have been doomed from day one.
However... After looking at these crazy smelly rinds and the overly firm cheese I figured that instead of throwing them away I should just work the rind and finish aging them as small Tommes. That was a good idea; When I opened them (day 75) they were full of aroma and packed with very complex flavor (Strangely out of season, felt like it belongs in winter).
I traveled to Israel with 14 of my cheeses and got met Alex who got a good tasting of it too. One last cheese remained in my cave in NYC and when I returned I found it to have caught Geo and Cylindrocarpon from a neighboring cheese. That second one was even better: a deep rustic rind of mustard-gray-white color spots with the added mushrominess of cylindrocarpon. No Reblochon yet :o( ...but good accident :o)
So here they are, my Reblochon failures turned excellent Tommes:
Wow, I love the rind texturing and the look of that cut cheese. Looks fantastic. Taste? That seems to cry out for a bit of crusty bread and wine.
What did you use to form that full-of-character rind?
-Boofer-
Well, following this thread, these started out as Reblochons that I wanted to get a bit stronger so I washed them with bacterial brine instead of simple brine. I washed them for the first 2-3 weeks maybe. (washed less after the color came out). The brine contained some B.Linen, yeast, and 3% salt. The first thing to come out was the Geo (white). Then the B.Linen showed and the geo receided. At this point I added a pinch of geo to the bacterial wash and it helped bringing it back. For a while they smelled likenasty socks which were used to put out cigarettes. Then I wrapped them (must have been 50 days old by then) and the aroma sharpened into that right cheese direction. As I mentioned above, the last cheese remained in the cave a bit longer and caught on that gray cylindrocarpon from a neighboring cheese. Enough to make a beautiful rind but too late to give the cheese that mushroom/earth note that cylindrocarpon is famous for. The complex shapes and nice thickness can be attributed to the yeast. I am now focusing my entire cheesemaking on figuring out big beautiful flavorful rinds.
The flavor was great, very warm and slightly buttery, almost too rich. Bread and wine are perfect for it. It would pair nicely with fruity full body reds, maybe Côtes du Rhône or Carmenère. ...but since it was breakfast I needed coffee and let go of the wine, but I did bake a crusty bread to go with it! It's an old rustic recipe that I make in a German terracotta bakeware. My sister came down with a jam she made from figs in the tree in her back yard. Feast!
I can just imagine your trip with Alex--a week of collaboration (fondue?). Keep us abreast of what you two conjure up. We want pics and recipes :)
Haha, it wasn't a trip with Alex. Alex is from my hometown where my parents and sister's family live. Flying in with 14 wheels of cheeses of course meant meeting up with Alex too! We spent great time together and did a mutual cheese tasting. His wife is an exceptional baker so there was great bread to go with it too. Of course, I couldn't turn down a gorgeous dutch cheese press from "The Cheesepenter" himself. Photos below. (I know the lever on the press is reversed, I packed it like that for shipping)
Ah you are indeed a lucky couple! I can't think of to many things that would be more fun and interesting conversationally than breaking bread with you and Alex.
Beautiful cheeses BTW!
Next time I'll visit you. One of these cheeses is your recipe (a goat's Tomme of some sort, it was delicious!)
As close as we are we should find a time to meet before the NE winter sets in. Glad you enjoyed the recipe. Still amaes me after all these years how similar yet different a cheese can be.
Alex--please, please, please...list the beautiful cheeses that are displayed on your table--they look gorgeous! And, Yoav, are the second pics of your cheese? Please list that, as well. We are in envy of the two of you!
Thanks Brie! I asked Alex to respond. My cheeses, clockwise:
- The first one (white square) is called Moteq. It's my own development, a goat's milk surface ripened Camembert like cheese with lots of small eyes and very grassy aroma. This one has traveled a bit during the last 10 days of its 21 day aging so it's not perfect, a bit of a skin slip.
- The second one is a Crottin-style goat's cheese that I wrap in grape leafs that were soaked for a few days in Calvados (Apple brandy). I only wrap it after the rind has developed (geo/and aromatic b.linen), so they have a nice chewy rind under that leaf. Lots of sweet aromatic apple sense from the Calvados
- The third one is that Reblochon gone wrong that turned into a great Petite-Tomme (What this thread is about, see previous page)
- The fourth and last one is called Hansel, my own development (shown on other threads here before). It's a surface ripened goats cheese that is a very peppery with Gorgonzola-like enzymes but no blue; only ash
Sorry people, somehow I missed this thread.
Good to hear from you again Yoav.
Attached is an edited version of the pic. Not the Tomme, but the Toma Valmonte is per DJ's recipe. The breads were Epi Baguette and Bread with chopped red bell pepper and black olives.
Yoav, the bread recipe you gave to my wife you have to share with the entire forum, she bakes it almost every other day.
P.S. 1 - Yoav, don't touch the press, as seen on the pic, it's assembled OK.
2 - Brie, envy is a bad thing, it may cause ulcer. The easiest way to avoid it - do the right thing, come to visit me, you are all invited. It'll be a great fun. Debi, please bring your sausages, OK :)? I promis to provide home-made sauerkraut and pickles.
Guys everything looks wonderful. If it was so late I'd have to grab a hunk of cheese and bread just to quell my drool factory here!
That bread looks awsome too! So colorful. I love color in my food.
Alex I wonder what people would think sitting next two a backpack full of salami for 20 or so hours? LOL Bet I wouldn't get crowded! I'be been trying to create a shelf stable version but when it gets really hot it breaks down and gets moldy. Good till about 70F degrees but after that mold! I would LOVE to meet you! If I ever win the lottery you can bet I'll be knocking on your door!
Alex - great to hear from you again too!
That bread with the bellpeppers was fantastic. I completely remember its flavor and texture. The baguette was great too, would love to have the recipe. I am so happy to know she bakes it often - isn't it remarkably easy and quick? It actually started by me trying some no-knead recipes and then having a long back and forth with another forum member Missy Greene who gave me her recipe. I combined the two and improved it by reading up some baking formulas. A few weeks later I got it right: (see photo on previous page of this thread).
Dry bowl: 2 cups bread flour, 2 cups whole wheat flour 3/4 tablespoon salt.
Wet bowl: Mix 1 tablespoon sugar with Warm water (120F/45C) in quantity that equals 68%-70% of the dry ingredients' weight (No kitchen scale? Do 11.33 Fl. Oz. / 335ml). Now add 1 tablespoon dry-freeze yeast, proof for 10 min.
Mix wet into dry, no need to overmix, no kneading needed. Form a ball of dough, cover with towel for 40 min or until doubled. (keep in a warm place). Optional - do a second rising: punch down the dough small again and give it another 40 min. Will give you a fluffier bread. Warm oven 20 min through to 450F/230C.
Form into loaf, score the top a few times (so that it expands evenly without tearing the crust on the sides) Bake for 45 minutes. Optional - you can put a cup of water on the bottom tray or spray the sides of the oven with water several times during the first 15 min. of baking - this will give you a thinner crust. Cool on a rack - eat. This will last a few days. Perfect bread every time.
Debbie - Going to Israel isn't that expensive, especially in the winter. If you've never been it's an unforgettable experience. I carried 14 wheels of cheese with me so your sausage will be fine... I put the cheese in a cold bag wrapped with 4 cool packs and it was covered with clothes in my suitcase. Only a thermometer popped out. It was 40F when I packed it in a 96F day in New York. Went to the airport, waited hours, hot tarmac, 11 hour flight, land at Israel at 92F temp, waited an hour for it ...paranoia. Got my bag, opened it, looked at the thermometer (18 hours after packing) and what do you know: 41F. No problem. Food travels!
Debi, as soon as you hit the jackpot I'm sure Yoav will be glad to be your pilot on your private plane/flight, so you don't have to bother about the smell of the salami.
Yoav and all of you, the bread recipes:
Bread with red bell peppers and black/kalamata olives
340 gr Pre-dough:
194 gr all purpose flour
146 gr water
Pinch of dry yeast
Make the pre-dough by mixing the yeast into the flour and adding the water. Let it rise for about 6 hours at room temperature.
For the dough:
¾ ts dry yeast
340 gr pre-dough
300 dgr water
480 gr all purpose flour
10 gr salt
150 gr olives including pits (Kalamata)
1x150 gr red bell pepper
Preparation:
Mix all ingredients except olives and red pepper. Knead for about 5 minutes. Dust with flour your working place and stretch the dough to a rectangle. Cover with a kitchen towel and let rest for about 15 minutes.
Meanwhile, pit the olives, clean the pepper and chop them to ¼"-⅜" cubes. Pet dry with paper towel.
Stretch the dough to a bigger rectangle and spread the olives and pepper over the dough. You may sprinkle some flour over them. Fold the dough like an envelope and knead to incorporate olives and pepper. Now it'll be messy. Put the dough in a bowl covered with a plastic bag and let rise at room temperature for 1 hour. Now transfer the bowl to the refrigerator for overnight.
Divide the dough into 2-3 pieces (I make 3). Gather each piece of dough to form a rough ball. Now, to create surface tension, stretch the outside of the dough into an oblong, being careful not to squeeze out the gas trapped in the dough any more than necessary. Repeat this stretching motion, bringing the opposite ends together to make a ball. Let rise until almost doubled in size.
Bake at 220ºC, using steam for the first 15 minutes. Lower temperature to 200ºC, and continue to bake approximately 25-30 minutes longer or until baked through. Check for a hollow sound by knocking on the bottom of the bread.
Remove the balls from the oven and cool on a rack for at least 60 minutes before slicing.
The Epi-Baguette is the recipe for French Bread from Peter Reinhart's "The Bread Baker's Apprentice", shaped and cut like an Epi-Baguette. You may use any baguette recipe.
These recipes look great! I have copied them down including lnks to the page and pictures.
Actually I have never been out of the America's. Mexico, Canada and the US that's it. I need to apply for a passport one of these days as I can't even visit my Canadian friends and family anymore. :-[
I am on my way, Alex--is tomorrow too soon? The breads look wonderful--have your wife try using the whey from hard cheese to make them even better! It will astound you!
Actually Brie, you reminded me to mention that now that I figured out finally how to make great bread, my fiancee finds out that she is alergic to gluten. I have been spending the past few weeks trying to figure out how to make gluten free bread ...that feels and tastes like bread, Not cake or cardboard. Seems like all of the recipes out there call for eggs for the protein so I made some calculations and figured out that 500ml of whey will take care of the water in the bread and provide as much whey as one large egg.
But... rice flour, chickpea flour, corn flour, sorghum flour, flaxseed mill, potato flour, tapioca flour, xanthan gum... my oh my, this is a serious challenge and so far very little luck and lots of $$$ spent on these expensive flours. Some have too strong of taste, others kill the yeast, other ones absorb so much moisture that I would need 5 hours of low heat baking just to get it out, some have such low heating point that I get a crust outside within minutes but it's so tight due to the starch/gum levels that it locks in al the moisture and nothing cooks inside, it just heats up and keeps the moisture. What did I get myself into??? Suggestions anyone?
I have a few family members that have problems with gluten and have been experimenting with recipes on the net. This one I found very good.
Dill Onion Brown Bread Recipe
http://glutenfreecooking.about.com/od/glutenfreebreadrecipes/r/glutenfreedillonionbrownbreadrecipe.htm (http://glutenfreecooking.about.com/od/glutenfreebreadrecipes/r/glutenfreedillonionbrownbreadrecipe.htm)
Thanks Debi!
By the way, check out my new thread about the cheese caves under New York City (photos!). What a place!
https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,4590.0.html (https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,4590.0.html)
Quote from: Brie on August 25, 2010, 01:09:33 AM
I am on my way, Alex--is tomorrow too soon? The breads look wonderful--have your wife try using the whey from hard cheese to make them even better! It will astound you!
Sorry Brie, didn't see your post, never mind,
surprise me!!!
Neat caves. I will scpoe it out one day.
Alex if your wife needs a sourdough starter I have a great one Ive been working with for a year now doing 2-3 makes a week.
Good flavour\aroma (with proper fermenentation time) and great levening power (as good as cultured baker's yeast).
The Press is great btw, Do you remember whats the force multiplier? My kitchen scale is limited to 4kg and my human scale is too large to fit.
Made a 10L Tomme which yeilded 1.2kg, I think I pressed it too firmly (after pressing under whey and getting a great knit).
Washing it with a linens brine in a box to maintain high humidity.
Thinking on reblochon today. Yoav, a belated thanks for this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97iXiyeI5vg#ws), totally inspiring.
I was stricken by how small his curds end up being, going into the moulds - by my eye, no bigger than (perhaps, large) rice grains, about the size I'm shooting for with my Beaufort makes.
I'm also thinking about the inclusion of P. candidum in the make; I know mine has gone nuts, and of the 6 wheels I've made, I'm allowing 2 to just go through the p. candidum life-cycle, before washing back; the others, are all being washed with a 3% linens (touch of geo, and now, having used the wash, whatever other adventitious yeasts, etc., are on the wheels) brine.
I think for the next make, I will forego p. candidum altogether. I don't have the luxury of a cave established with linens, else I'd just do a "naked" 3% brine, and see what happens.
Anyway, a wonderful, helpful video, Yoav. If you're reading, thank you again.
Oh wow, haven't been on this thread in a while. I think that the low acidity of the washed rind will give you little to no growth of P.Caldidum. If it will grow, you will end up wiping it off anyway when you wash the cheese. The white dusty stuff on Reblochons is actually late Geo bloom. The other thing is, the more cultures you add, the more competition you have between the bacterium on nutrients and less growth you experience. i would let the P.Candidum go. One more comment - Classic reblochon calls for washing with simple brine only, no B.Linen added. I too tried it with B.Linen and discovered that the wash is just way too strong. Simple 3% salt water are best for washing this delicate cheese.
Quote from: iratherfly on August 21, 2010, 08:05:24 PM
Okay, I know it's been a long time but I've been traveling. Felt like I awed everyone on this thread the ending to the story.
As it turns out I was right; these Reblochons indeed took a strange turn. I think that initial milk acidity was wrong and they must have been doomed from day one.
However... After looking at these crazy smelly rinds and the overly firm cheese I figured that instead of throwing them away I should just work the rind and finish aging them as small Tommes. That was a good idea; When I opened them (day 75) they were full of aroma and packed with very complex flavor (Strangely out of season, felt like it belongs in winter).
I traveled to Israel with 14 of my cheeses and got met Alex who got a good tasting of it too. One last cheese remained in my cave in NYC and when I returned I found it to have caught Geo and Cylindrocarpon from a neighboring cheese. That second one was even better: a deep rustic rind of mustard-gray-white color spots with the added mushrominess of cylindrocarpon. No Reblochon yet :o( ...but good accident :o)
So here they are, my Reblochon failures turned excellent Tommes:
I know it's an old thread - searching for info on ISFET meters - but Yoav, have to say, these are beautiful, regardless of their original intent!