Living in Costa Rica, I'm limited re. available dairy breeds. Presently I have 1 jersey (not quite pure-bred), one simmental (again not a purebred) and both produced gorgeous heifers from our extremely handsome Simbrah bull. I'm very new to cheesemaking (and bovine husbandry) and presently buying raw milk (Guerney and Jersey) from a neighbor. What do you think I should be aiming towards, in the future? Replace the Simbrah with another breed? Should I buy more jersey cows? Should the present babies be bred to Jersey, Guerney or Holstein?
Another question - should I be using milk from only one breed or does it make much difference if the jersey and guerney milks get mixed together? Or should I try and compare how the cheese might differ being made from one milk or the other? Any and all help is greatly appreciated - Desiree (on a very steep learning curve LOL)
Several questions come to mind before I can give a good answer. First, how much milk do you want? how many cows are you going to want to milk? Any other factors you desire might be helpful to know.
Basically, Jersey cows give much more cream/ solids/ fat per gallon for the same feed input than holsteins and to some extent guernseys. But Holsteins give much more milk; I really mean a LOT more. Guernseys have a good mix of both traits but also add a high carotene content which makes their milk more yellow. Simmentals are good milkers but also give you a good beef calf when you have bulls instead of heifers. I am not sure about the fat content and production level with them but I can check it out. I love having a little beef in my cows lineage because you don't have to worry with their health as much. They put more of the feed in their body and less in the milk which is fine for a home milker. For this reason I would choose to get a simmental or hereford or angus bull if available. The simbra might work but that brahma in them might show up as a bad attitude which is an absolute deal breaker for a milk cow. Another point to consider if you are milking by hand, is the teat length and size. Around here in the US most jerseys have been bred to have small teats and they are almost impossible to milk by hand. I have read that simmentals have been bred the same way but I have not personally seen this. Using the milk from different breeds is no problem. I use the milk from 3 cows which are all different breeds. My jersey keeps my cream up, my guernsey gives the color and the holstien gives the volume. I have compared them before but it is simpler for me to combine. Hope that helps. Good luck.
Sorry, I don't know how much milk I will want - will depend if I eventually get good enough cheese to sell a bit - and if I can find a market for it - not many gringoes in my area. But then again gringo valley is only 2hrs away and tourist resorts aren't much further. Cheeses available locally are queso blanco, gouda, edam, emmenthal and a couple of local specialties. I'd like to provide alternatives. Some surplus milk can go to the school next door, and my worker. Mainly I'm looking for information and ideas so if there is potential I don't inadvertently head in the wrong direction.
The simbras here are very mellow fellows and his two heifers are sweethearts. I don't anticipate any problems in that area. It'll either be me or my worker (he's not that much bigger than I am) milking the cows, so I don't think teat size will be a big factor. Since the heifers are half simbra, do you think I should breed them back to a milk line?
Thanks so much for your help.
CdnMorganGal,
Costa Rica has a large range of micro-climates. If you are in the hills above San José, or up near Terrazu in the cooler areas, you may find a European breed like the jersey will do fine. Holstein is probably a bit fickle for Costa Rica. By crossing with gir, a Zebú Dairy breed you will get more heat resistance, not as docile. Costa Rica also has a large number of Normande, a very hardy and docile breed that will give 20+ liters/day and very high milkfat and protein. A Normande bull, or semen will do well to breed to any of your existing cows or heifers. One great advantage of this breed, is they do well with the rough forage typical of tropical winters and the bull calves will give plenty of marbled beef.
A photo of our Normande bull with 2 bull calves
Here is a contact:
COSTA RICA
Asociación de criadores de Normando
Président : Mr Alvaro CARAZO
Ap do 247
Escazu
Tél : 00 506 223 7711
Fax : 00 506 221 3431
Email : carazol@sol.rasca.co.cr
Great info Joe. NIce looking pics too. would love to have one of those. The normande sounds interesting too
Desiree, I mentioned the teat size because it can really be any issue. I once had 2 cows that gave the same amount of milk but one took 30 min and severe hand cramps to milk while the other milked out in 6 min. Now I won't buy one that isn't an easy milker.
I am sure the temperaments of the cows there is somewhat different than here so you probably would be wise to ask some locals as Joe mentioned. You might just try what you have first and see how they milk. If you have raised them and they are accustomed to you they will be easier to train. Be aware that some cows milk easy and others don't. They can be very gentle until you try to milk them and then they go berserk. I really like the Simmental. I have 2 black simmental bulls for our beef herd of 100 cows. All 3 of my dairy cows are bred by them. Good luck.
I live in the mountains near Turrialba, approx 950m above sea level - have a wonderful view of the Turrialba volcano. Thank goodness we live on the drier side - a friend a half hour away gets double our rain.
Docility is a big factor for me - hubby works abroad 1/2 the year, and our worker doesn't work 7 days a week - I'd rather not end up a gored or trampled mess LOL.
Just googled the Normande - looks very interesting and promising. Thx SO much for the contact info and pic. We have a second property a km up the mountain - maybe we'll keep the simbrah for our present cows and use the second property for a normande bull and the simbrah bull's heifers.
There are also Swiss Pardo in the area - but googling didn't produce any information - are they also known by another name?
A friend tried milking the simmental last year - only problem was we started too late and she was almost dry. I'd never tasted fresh milk before so one day I walked up to the jersy while she was hanging around in the barn and after a few experimental squeezes got to try some. She did look at me funny, wondering what I was doing. To be honest, its going to take me some time to get used to the taste.
In the pic - the larger heifer is the simbrah/simmental cross. The younger is simbrah/jersey. In the background is the simmental cow and the as yet not fully grown black simbrah bull.
The Pardo Swissa is one and the same as the European Brown Swiss. These are very similar to Holstein and can be sensitive to poor feed or heat. We have a few here that give over 40 liters per day, but in Freestall conditions.
The Simbra is a simental(Bos Taurus) Brahma(Bos Indicus) cross. Both are beef breeds with the simental having a decent milk production. The Cebú or Indicus breeds are the most heat and bug tolerant, but are very attached to their offspring, which can make them less docile when you go to mess with their calf. The Gir is the best (indicus variety)for milk.
In the Tropics, even though your climate at that altitude will be less steamy, feed quality and heat are still factors, not the same as temperate climates. As a rule, areas where high quality coffee is produced, a 3/4-7/8 mix of Taurus/Cebú works great. It takes a major investment in fans and cooling sprays to deal with Purebred Taurus breeds in tropical regions. We have found the Normande to be the best of the Bos Taurus breeds for Coffee Land under normal, extensive husbandry. Another factor, learning to inseminate, is fun and will avoid the high cost of bulls. This will also give you a wide choice to play around with. Even docile bulls weigh about 1 ton and can be dangerous.
From the time of breeding, it will be 36 months, at the very least, before you see the results of your breeding program, Curing cheese is quite fast in comparison.
(9 months till birth, 18 months till breeding the offspring, 9 months till freshening)
Feel free to PM me for details
QuoteTo be honest, its going to take me some time to get used to the taste.
This will be greatly affected by what you feed her.
Feeding milk cows in the Tropics is a challenge. We get all sorts of wild legumes that cows love but don't do so well for milk flavor. It has been many years of research from many different universities and producers to come up with some viable solutions.
I feed corn silage and Tifton 85 hay. The Tifton is a great option for Tropical pastures as well. I also use 2 Legume options, Arachis Pintoi, a perennial peanut and Clitoria Ternatea, a perennial pea. Both will be able to insure high protein content and sweet milk. Both should be available in Costa Rica, our friend Woodsman in Belize, should also look for these. Both work great south of heavy frost regions.
Quote from: FarmerJd on August 16, 2010, 11:39:02 AM
QuoteTo be honest, its going to take me some time to get used to the taste.
This will be greatly affected by what you feed her.
I've gotten used to the taste of UHT milk here (if you can call that stuff milk LOL), the raw milk tastes much sweeter and richer - it'll just take some getting used to.
My cows feed on horse pasture (don't know what type) - we cut all the mala herbe because of the horses. They do get some additional alimento when needed. And 24/7 access to a salt/mineral lick.
UHT milk, at least here in Brazil, has some stuff in it that used to be milk! :-[
I'm now spoiled and have a hard time drinking anything but Real Milk.
I do use the pasteurizer we got from Cheesemaking.com and love the results.
As to feedstock, I saw some time ago around Huetar some nice fields of Arachis Pintoi. If you manage this in rotation, 40M²/cow/day,(5 cows 200 M²) you will never need to buy additional alimento. Your horses will really do well too. You will need 30 tiny divisions, one per day. We have mix breed 1/2 normande/1/2Gir on Peanut/Pea/Tifton mix producing 30 liters per day.
I have been working with small holders around here and we have gotten as high as 200 liters per day on 1 hectare with this pasture mix. It all depends on how intensive you wish to develop your fields. A 365 day growing season is a benefit our friends in Wisconsin can only dream about, the downside is the rainy season! Management in very tiny fields, with 29 days of rest between use, is the answer.
Here are 2 young girls, a Gir ( Bos Indicus on left) and a Normande (Bos taurus on right). Both Breeds have their advantages and disadvantages. Differences within the breeds are many as well, Brahma is beef and Gir is Milk, Holstein or Simental
As a rule, Bos Indicus, Cebú in Spanish, are less docile, are very attached to their offspring, usually need their calf at their feet to allow to milk and give milk for a very short time after being re-bred (90-100days) They are very hardy and have high resistance to heat, ticks, low maintenance overall.
Bos Taurus, are the European breeds and very docile. Give much more milk and don't give a hoot about their offspring, we raise our calves on a separate farm. Fickle as to feed, get infested with ticks if not cared for and don't like mud at all. in the tropics, hoof care is a constant problem. Persistence in milk is 300-400 days and most require to be forcibly dried before freshening.
Mixing the 2 is what most tropical farmers do. As in the Simbra mentioned. Depending on the specifics of the micro-climate, Coffee Land is far different than beachside, different mixes work best. 50%/50% where it is hotter, 25%Cebú/75% European at cooler high altitude.
Our location here is 1000 meters ASL and allot further from the equator than Costa Rica. (17ºS) We have about half of our herd purebred holstein, a dozen pure Normandes and the rest is mix of gir with both normande and holstein. The Holsteins give the most milk by far. The mix give less maintenance. We have a few Pardo Swissas as well and they are the same as the Holsteins.
I've had lots of fun at my attempt at the perfect mix.
What a great thread. I have nothing to offer, and it wont help me in my own cheese-making, but I'm totally enjoying reading it. Nice looking cows everyone. :)
Thanks. Gina.
It is about cheese, right?
"Jersey Cows can tolerate the heat and are therefore found in warmer climates around the world"
average Jersey cow 1000 pounds, average milk yeld 14049 pounds
average Holstein cow 1500 pounds, average milk yeld 19892 pounds
weith ratio 1 : 1.5,
milk ratio 1 : 1.4
pound per pound Jersey gives more milk! And much beter milk !
if you take chedar cheese as referent cheese average cheese yeld is:
Holstein 1989 pounds chedar cheese
Jersey 1882.6 pounds chedar cheese
So cheese ratio is 1 : 1.0565
Holstein wich is 50% hevier gives only 5.56% more cheese.
For subtropical and tropical regions sweet sorghum shuld be the best energy forage. In Europe it is seeded in first decade of May and is used for next 5 ½ months. GM yeld is 80 to 130 metric tons/ha without irrigation.
;)
There is no doubt Lb of milk/ Lb of body weight, Jersey wins. And great milk as well.
Jersey has several problems in tropical areas and would prefer to be fed as to being asked to forage on her own. Jersey is used in many commercial breeding programs as part of genetic mixing. The most common is breeding a 50% Holstein/50% Jersey to a 50%Gir/50% Holstein. The result is 50% Holstein/25% Gir/25%Jersey and makes for an excellent high altitude tropics dairy cow.
To get to this point takes a pretty serious breeding program. As to planting feed in the tropics, sorghum is a great option but takes machines that most small holders can't afford. Especially in Coffee Lands, flat level areas are scarce and tend to be very small. The recommendation is planting perennial grasses and legumes in rotational systems to reduce costs and manpower needs.
Would love to see pictures of CdnMorganGal's place.
well, Joe
I' am 6000 miles away and even in here I'm no expert!
If cheese is a goal and costs are important tnen Jersey is a winer! So Jeresy bull should solve the problem? 50% Jersey should adapt easy? and 75% will folow ?...............
There was corn(maize) silage mentioned. For some time shorgum is pushing corn out all ower the world. It has beter yeld with same costs or same yeld with lower costs. Great silage and it is great for green forage. It is drought resistant...........
By the way silage is not recomended when hard cheese is a goal ?
Coffee Joe - Thank you - you've given a lot of good information - a bit of information overload actually LOL - but certainly points I will be mulling over as we develop our property and my cheesemaking skills!
Quote from: coffee joe on August 23, 2010, 10:40:50 AM
Would love to see pictures of CdnMorganGal's place.
Here ya go - 2 of them
I don't need silage - even in the dry season our pastures are green.
We will be subdividing our pasture, eventually, and will look into replanting with the peanut/pea legumes. Poco a poco. We've only had the property for 2 years and there is still a lot of basic stuff to do.
CoffeeJoe - why buy a pasteurizer when you can use what you have in the kitchen? I also need to take into account the high electricity costs here - that's why we switched from an electric to gas stove.
Quote from: CdnMorganGal on August 25, 2010, 02:43:03 AM
I don't need silage - even in the dry season our pastures are green.
As I expected, your place is identical topography to ours. And you don't need to worry about silage for less than 20 cows. A cow should however, have easy access to forage at least 20 cm/8" deep. Unlike a horse, a cow uses her tongue to gather feed.
Properly preparing one hectare is all you will need to insure high quality feedstock for up to 12 animals year around.
Quote from: CdnMorganGal on August 25, 2010, 02:43:03 AM
I don't need silage - even in the dry season our pastures are green.
My mistake. It was Joe who mentioned maize silage....
Quote from: coffee joe on August 25, 2010, 03:11:29 PM........
Properly preparing one hectare is all you will need to insure high quality feedstock for up to 12 animals year around.
I find it hard to belive. Simple too good to be truth.
In here 1 ha is just enough for 12 goats in intensive farming. No grazing but intensive tillage and fertilization. 15 goats is top if one has spring crop, for istance pea, and then Sudan grass and/or Sorghum for the rest of the season for instance on 1/2 ha and some good yelding legumes on the second half.........
But remember that one cow eats like 10 goats!
Tar,
We regularly milk 180-200 liters/day on 1 hectare with 12 cows in rotational grazing management of 22 pickets of 450 M² each. It is done in many tropical countries, Costa Rica included.
Quote from: coffee joe on August 27, 2010, 01:25:56 AM
Tar,
We regularly milk 180-200 liters/day on 1 hectare with 12 cows in rotational grazing management of 22 pickets of 450 M² each. It is done in many tropical countries, Costa Rica included.
It is obvious that you know what are you talking about : crossbreeding, rotational grazing, wich are necessary tools for good results.
Still I am confused......
I am in proces of buying a farm here, so I had to do lots of math. My interest is in goats but most data is about cows and here is what I found:
H igh quality feedstock daily intake is 2-3 % body weight on DM(dry matter) basis. 2% for dry cows and 3% for cows in lactation(20 lbs.milk daily per cow). Assuming that 25% of animals are dry the average daily DM intake per cow is 2.75% body weight.
Averaga cow is 1200 lbs. So average daily intake is 33 lbs DM basis.
For 12 animals it is 396 lbs DM daily. That is 144540 lbs a year. (cca 65.6 tons)
Grassis have average water contents of 85%. DM is 15% .
So for 144540 lbs DM GM(green matter) yeld has to be 819060 lbs or
372 tons/ha !
Is it possibile? Even in tropics ?
For instance sorghum is tropical & subtropical hight yelding crop. But recor crop is achived in China 135 tons GM/ha, and just a little less in Europe (Croatia) 130 tons/ha. Intensive tillage and very intensive ferilisation (manure + NPK) + beter rain distribution since there is no rain or dry season.
And even if 372 tons/ha is possibile, that would be enough only in theory since in grazed fild effective yeld is smaller.
Tar ,
Where are you located? Information such as Topography, Latitude and Altitude are important in choosing the best system for raising dairy animals. Further information obtained by soil analysis will determine what type of fertilization you will need.
720 Kg/day of green forage(60Kg/Animal Unit/day) is enough for 12 cows and easily produced in 1 hectare if water and fertilization are adequate. The problem in large areas is the waste that happens when cows trample a large percentage. This is the advantage of making small areas.
Every grass has a different growth cycle. Tifton is 21 days, Brachiaria 33 days. One picket for each day of growth cycle+1, with a minimum of 35 M²/AU/day.
With the breed of cow chosen, adequate and adapted to your climate, this system produces a rolling average of 15Kg milk/AU/day with very little in additional feed required.
Goats do well in this system as well, but the numbers are different. I have no experience with goats or sheep but a vet can help. The idea is the same, more AU/Ha.
As cows leave one picket trashed after a single day, in 21 days when they return, it is all green and deep.
A picture of our calf rearing area.
Quote from: coffee joe on August 27, 2010, 02:10:17 PM
Tar ,
Where are you located? Information such as Topography, Latitude and Altitude are important in choosing the best system for raising dairy animals. Further information obtained by soil analysis will determine what type of fertilization you will need. .......
As I said, 6000 miles away, Europe, Balkan, Serbia.......Here climate is continental with cold winters (few days with -10°C or sub.) In summer 30-35, sometaimes to 40°C.
I am familiar with rotational grazing. In here we do not use permanent "pickets".Becouse the procedure is diferent . For instance : first you have Alfalfa for a few yares, then corn or barley or..., then grass legume mixture as long as legume is OK.....So we use electric fence more often.
I will keep to my semi tropical climate! I do love to get to the snow once a year, I prefer it not come to me.
Electric fence is the best option and we are changing over. If one were to be starting from scratch, there is no need for fixed wire fencing. Electric is far cheaper and soon the cows don't even get close.
Back to cheese.
Once it was only quantity of milk, then quantity+buterfat%, now it is quantity+ quality( protein+fat%).When we talk about cheese then it is all about milk quality. In the first place it is question of genetics but cheesemakers who produce their own milk know that fat% can be significantly rised with hight quality forage. Unfortunately protein% is not responding so well. It is 99% genetics. And that's not all. Among proteins casein is the most important. Now we know that there are a few varietets of casein . Some beter then others for cheese making...................
For high quality cheese making it is important to choose breed with high quality milk. With goats Sannen is Holstain, Alpina is Simental, but quality is with Anglo-Nubians from USA & GB and Mursia-Granadas from Spain. When it comes to cows, I'm guessing Jersey is one.
Now I know NOTHING of raising cattle in such climates - though the thread is very interesting to read.
I noticed you said that your neighbor has a Guernsey. I am partial to the Guernseys and bought one just for their exceptional milk quality for cheese. They have a hight fat content, produce in volumes, and their milk is usually A2/A2. Holsteins on the other hand produce a low fat milk. You have to be careful on the temperament of a Jersey - some can be pretty ornery.
The downside of the Guernsey is the feed. They don't forage well in any climate - they are a cow to be fed. And they do eat a lot as they are a large breed. The Normandy sounded interesting - I don't know anything about those.
As for keeping a bull as a newcomer to things Bovine the advice is generally against it. Dairy Bulls are, for some reason, particularly mean and dangerous.
QuoteDairy Bulls are, for some reason, particularly mean and dangerous
I believe the reason for this is the fact that alot of them were bottle fed since they were taken from their moms early on. They just grow up with a different relationship with humans. I have been around the mean dairy bull types alot, but I have seen the same traits in beef cows raised on a bottle. Just an observation. I have had 2 acquaintances killed by bull attacks and each bull was bottle fed. Could be coincidence, but makes you wonder. Just my .02.
FarmerJed, I think you are right. I know a dairyman who, when keeping a bull calf, coordinates with his beef raising neighbor and grafts the dairy bull calf to a beef cow and out in pasture or range land so it's wild. He says when he brings that bull in to use it, the bull turns away from him rather than toward him. For me, AI is the way to go. I get a selection of the best bulls around for a fraction of what it costs to keep an animal.
Wow, that's awful to know two people killed by bulls. I'm so sorry :'(
Yes to AI! We do ET and IVF as well, but need to have a bull around as there are some of our cows don't conceive well with AI so after 2 misses we go with a bull. Not often but it happens
I love my jersey, i think they have the most even temperaments. I like that they are little too.
Yes bulls are some of the most dangerous critters on earth. My neighbor was killed by the bull, my brother-in-law was tossed into the air by a bull, landed on top of a freestall pipe, lots of bruises and a cracked rib. These were family farmers where the bull was raised by the family, ear scratching and all. The problem is they are totally unpredictable, can turn from nice to killer without warning. Just the way it is. If kids wander near by or into their area how tragic could that be. Not worth the chance when for a few bucks you can hire AI. Even if it was cheaper to raise one, it's not worth it.
J