Well this is what happens when you start making cheese too late in the evening, and try to be too clever to save time.
On pressing my parmesan it was wrapped so nicely that I decided to be smart (or not so) and not redress, just flip and repress. My last press I had to get up at 4am (due to aforementioned late start) and again just flipped and repressed, no redress.
Foolish me! Lesson learnt. Just gutted as this was my first parmesan attempt and due to my own laziness (which is very unlike me) I lost this batch.
On a side note I wonder if the curds were going to press completely anyway as when I tried to undress :P the curds fell apart. Some parts of the wheel did seem to have pressed together well but others were very loose.
I am lucky enough to have free flowing access to as much raw milk as I need so at least I can easily try again but it was still gutting after spending all night on it and hoping for an awesome parmesan block. And as I say, laziness is normally not my style being a very pedantic person usually so I am mostly annoyed at myself.
Can't seem to post a picture so have put it in as an attachment. Just comes up [img] when I try? ???
Bummer! Some of my worst flame outs have occurred because of late night cheese making.
That is a pretty dramatic curd failure.
For the record, I start parm at 6:00am and am done about 2:30pm.
Which is a great plan Wayne.
I got a little panicked at I had 30 litres to use up and this was my last 10. I had already done a lovely Feta and Haloumi but in hind sight, I should have gone for another soft cheese.
Oh well, we live and learn. I am picking up another 20 litres on Friday night and will be beginning my parmesan on Saturday morning.
A question in preparation: How important is it for Parmesan curds to be rice size? Mine were probably double that at pressing. Would that have caused me a problem regardless of the obvious failure?
I think that it is pretty important for the curds to be rice sized.
That affects the moisture content and i would imagine the grain and texture of the finished cheese.
Rice sized curds, in my opinion, is a key indicator of a successfull process.
I've only made Parmesan twice now, but from what I did, and watched several videos, the Rice size was at cutting the curd. At Pressing it was one homogeneous ball. During cooking of the curd mine all came together in a single mass. This is what I pressed.
Quote from: coffee joe on August 22, 2010, 05:06:23 PM
I've only made Parmesan twice now, but from what I did, and watched several videos, the Rice size was at cutting the curd. At Pressing it was one homogeneous ball. During cooking of the curd mine all came together in a single mass. This is what I pressed.
Yes, that is what I've seen too and what I've tried to attain in my few parm attempts, and mine did knit well. There are some you-tube videos of commercial parm-makers that show this. And yes, as Wayne said, you do want the curds cut small/rice-size, using a wisk, to allow as much whey as possible to drain for a drier, longer-aging cheese.
Good luck. :)
Thanks all for your advice. This is why I love this forum!
I will give it another go on Saturday and let you know how it works out.
So for clarity, get my curds to rice size at cutting? I found that once I started heating them they didn't break down too much despite whisking them.
Quote from: Wayne Harris on August 22, 2010, 01:38:41 AM
That is a pretty dramatic curd failure.
For the record, I start parm at 6:00am and am done about 2:30pm.
That's pretty much spot-on for all my cheesemaking efforts.
sun...what do we call you? I want you to know you are not the first to have your curds stick tenaciously to the cloth. Sorry for your trouble. It's a real PITA: https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,4222.msg32421.html#msg32421 (https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,4222.msg32421.html#msg32421)
-Boofer-
Oh my gosh! Thank you Boofer, your post made me properly laugh out loud and also made me feel a little better (sorry). I so nearly didn't post my Parmesan failure for fear of seeming like a total lost cause in among the great experts here but hey, one has to learn don't they?
You are right, it was a right PITA but you have me smiling about it now. Thank you!
BTW: You can call me Anck. :)
I have done some successful parms and they were not rice size at cutting, more like 1/2 in cubes. Then I stirred, whisked, and most importantly, broke up by hand, as I heated. I have seen a direct correlation between final dryness and size of curds at hooping. Mine do not stick together until I let them rest right before hooping, and even then, not too extreme.
Anck,
I have done nothing special nor extraordinary to make my curds rice sized. That's just kinda the way it worked out.
What might be usefull is if you could supply any details about your Parm recipe. I think that if we saw what you used for milk, cultures, enzymes, heating protocols etc, We could provide some more meaningful feedback.
Do you have a recipe you can post?
The thing that jumps out at me right away is your milk. You mentioned you use 'raw' milk, but was it skimmed? What is the percentage of fat in your milk? Mine is about 2.0% - 2.5%, Not whole.
Parm actually does much better with skimmed milk. However, your yield will go way down. In general lower fat milk produces harder cheeses.
Hi Wayne
The recipe I followed was one I got off the Hard Cheeses Intermediate course I did. To be honest I have found that most of their recipes have been losely taken from Ricki Carrolls book so I kind of follow their recipe while also checking in with Ricki to see what she does. Some of the times for pitching and cooking were different as were and in my cheese course instructions there was no mention of curd size beyond the initial cut.
I am using Raw milk which was skimmed so should have been a low percentage. I did get quite a reduced yield compared to what I got for the other two batches from the same milk so I assume that suggests it was well skimmed. How does one measure this acurately?
The culture I use is the Chr Hansen product, culture YC-380.
My rennet is Renco.
The heating was when I really began to wonder if things were going right. The recipe instructed to bring the curds up to 48c over 45 minutes and then hold that temperature for another 45 minutes stirring regularly.
The curds were very firm in my opinion and definitely squeeky/rubbery.
I pressed for 30 minutes at 5kg, 2 hours at 10kg, 12 hours at 20kg and then on turning to press for another 12 hours at 10kg I discovered my mess :(
Any clues/advice you can give is much appreciated. I would love to get this right as we eat a ton of Parmesan and it's only right that a girl with Italian blood can make Italian cheese right? ;)
I have had good success getting to rice-sized curds by using a good long whisk and sweeping back and forth (or to and fro, if that works better ;) ) before the temperature is raised. I believe once the temp is raised and the surface of the curds hardens, there won't be much cleaving the curds at that point.
I swallowed what pride I had when I posted that "dark side" expose'. I figured someone might benefit from my failure. I certainly did! :P
-Boofer-
A couple of quick things:
Cultures:
While both TA61 (what I use) and (your) YC-380 both contain Streptococcus thermophilus,
I add LH100 which contains:
• (LH) Lactobacillus helveticus
• (LBL) Lactobacillus lactis
The Lactobacillus helveticus does several things, to include the prevention of browning.
But you also add Lactobacillus delbrueckii subsp. Bulgaricus as this is included in your YC-380.
From what I understand, this is typically used in the production of yogurt. So, I'm not sure what that means to Parmesan.
Enzymes:
While this should not affect your curd production, I saw no mention of Lipase. To me, this gives the parmesan its distinctive "tang".. It's hard to describe.
Rennet:
You mention that you used Renco Rennet, but did not provide any dosage information, or flocculation time. Both of these greatly affect curd production. I use a dosage of 9ml rennet to 100lbs milk, diluted to at 1:40. I also use a flocculation multiplier of 2X. That is I measure how much time for the curd to initially set, then wait that amount of time again before cutting the curd. This also affects your curd. The longer you wait, the more moisture is contained in the curd.
These are the things that jump out at me right away. There are other recipes in this section that show how others have fared. You might look at Marks' parmesan posts as I know he has been all over parmesan lately.
Thank you for all that information Wayne. It's always excellent to get support from the experts.
I have also been recommended to try a STB01. Does this meet any of the criteria you mentioned?
I have never added Lipase to any of my cheeses as yet as the cheesemaker I learnt from did not use it at all and did not recommend it. Plus all of the recipes I have mention that it is optional. As a bit of a novice still, are you able to sum up for me what Lipase does. I understand it enhances and adds comlexity to the flavour?
For my rennet I use 7mls to 10 litres. My parmesan had a flocculation point of 17 minutes and I used a multiplier of x2. I am only just getting used to this method (having just gone for the suggested time and looking for the clean cut in the past) so I am crossing my fingers for success every time.
I will take a look at Mark's posts, thank you. I really appreciate your time in replying.
Anck
Lipase is an enzyme, not a flavor enhancers. As the cheese ages, the lipase is an integral part of long term proteolysis and flavor development.
Raw milk does contain highly variable quantities of naturally occurring lipase, so some cheese makers in various parts of the world can get by without adding any extra. I don't consider lipase an option when making Italian type cheeses. For most of us, it is an essential ingredient. Without it, you just won't get that classic Parmesan smell and flavor.
Lactobacillus delbrueckii subsp. Bulgaricus adds a more complex flavor to the mix.
Thanks Sailor
I just did a big read up and I think I have my head around Lipase now. The raw milk I get is fantastic quality so I wonder how much natural Lipase occurs in it. I guess I'll never know but regardless, it looks like I will be buying some Lipase for my next Parmesan attempt.
Maybe it was fate that my first attempt didn't work out. Lipase protest from the universe!
Quote from: ancksunamun on August 23, 2010, 09:09:33 PM
I would love to get this right as we eat a ton of Parmesan and it's only right that a girl with Italian blood can make Italian cheese right? ;)
I feel the same way - probably why my consentration is normally Italian cheeses.
I find these things to be important to keep the cloth from sticking
wetting the cheesecloth with the warm whey prior to use
staring with a lighter weight to press for the first 15 minutes flip then press again before raising pressure
keeping the curds around 80°F no higher than 85°F when pressing
QuoteI would love to get this right as we eat a ton of Parmesan and it's only right that a girl with Italian blood can make Italian cheese right? ;)
LOL, another gal of Italian descent here. That's probably why my last several hard cheeses have been parmesans and asiagos. And there is another asiago make scheduled for tomorrow. I want to make a good number of these yummy cheeses so some will actually stand a chance to make it to a year of aging. ;D
Of the 27 diferent types cheeses I made this year 3 were French, 3 Dutch, 1 American and the rest Italian.