Made these lovelies last night. This is my second attempt at Camembert. My first went pretty well using a VERY basic recipe but when it came time to eat it I panicked with the slight amonia smell (or was it?) and ended up throwing a lot of it out. What I did eat tasted good though!
I left these to shape and drain last night and have had them at room temperature today draining some more (out of their molds) and have salted them tonight.
I have a few questions which I hope might fill the gaps in my VERY basic recipe:
1) How long can I let these keep draining and do I need to keep wiping away the moisture?
2) When do I move them to my cave?
3) When do I add humidity?
I think I have the last bit sussed once the bloom has grown (remove wrap and age at a lower temp?) but the steps in between are lacking on this recipe and I would like a much better guide to follow to ensure succes.
Your help is appreciated.
PS: Bought 6 containers with these pickle baskets in them for $2.99 NZD and the baskets worked perfectly as Cam baskets! Very pleased with this purchase. Sure, they put some funky grooves on the cheeses but I don't mind that and they are reducing as the curds drain.
Hi Anck, I keep draining and flipping and wiping away moisture until there isn't any more. It will usually take about 4-6 days or so. I keep them in the box, flipping every day until they get a really nice coat of white bloom, which may take a week to ten days. Depending on the temperature of my basement I may leave them in the box for another 4 or 5 days to mature before I put them in the fridge (colder cave) to keep maturing more slowly. You can put them right into your cave after they get their nice white bloom if you want to experiment with the taste of young cam's and let others age more in the fridge.
You will get some ammonia smell as the bloom forms, but as you flip your cheese, air out the box a bit. When I put them in the fridge, I wrap them in cheese wrap and let them continue to age more slowly. I don't add humidity. I leave my cheeses out in my fridge on a mat and they seem to get plenty of humidity in my fridge to keep them from aging too fast or getting too much of an ammonia smell. But, that is my preference.
I like the look of your cam moulds. Nice pattern on the cheeses. :-)
Bonnie
Thanks Bonnie
So do you keep them at room temperature while you are draining and flipping?
Well, I keep them in my basement which is cooler than the upstairs. But, if your house if pretty warm where they are draining, they may grow the white bloom more quickly. The recipe I use says to transfer cheeses to a ripening room at 10-12 degrees Celsius (50-54 degrees Fahrenheit) and the white mold should begin in 5-7 days. So, my basement fits that bill, but I have had them ripen faster when it is warmer. It then says to wrap them after the bloom and transfer to the fridge (4-5 degrees Celsius, 40-45 degrees F) or continue in the ripening room. You will just have to keep an eye on them to decide when to move to the fridge. This is from "The Cheesemakers Manual", by Margaret Morris.
I would put them in the coolest place you have in your house (not the fridge unless it is your devoted "cave" and you can adjust the temp) until the white bloom starts.
Maybe check some of the older posts on cams and see what the others have done?
- Drain them, flipping every 6-12 hours for up to 36 hours in room temp. If they are still not relatively dry by then, keep draining them in your cave to prevent over-development too quickly.
- Put a paper towel under your draining platform to absorb the humidity and trap it. Wipe and replace as needed.
- Make sure your cheese is not draining directly on this surface. This isn't loose/airy enough and about 50% of the surface is swimming in its own whey, very bad. This will cause a skin slip later. Put a sushi mat on top of it, or plastic net of some sort.
- Once 24-36 hours have passed, salt them (if you haven't done so yet). Use 2% to 3% of their body weight in salt. I know it seems very salty but the salt will start extracting lots of why out and with it, it will get diluted by much.
- Immediately after salting, cover and put in your cave. Initially the cheese will continue to drain a lot and you will have water beads all over your aging container. You only need 85%-90% humidity so these heavy water beads mean you are at 100%. Wipe them off. Control the humidity by closing the lid partially in the first few days and as the beads disapear, close it more and more to keep humidity up. Wipe the beads at least once a day and change the paper towel on bottom when it becomes moist. The most important are the beads on the lid because they fall onto your cheese and can create skin slip or contamination.
- When fully bloomed (depands on you cultures you used, can take from 3-7 days), move the aging container to a refrigerator's top shelf (bottom may be too cold). Age for 10-14 more days until a bit softer and smells right.
- Ammonia smell during aging is certainly normal and doesn't mean the cheese is bad. Ammonia smell once you opened the cheese is bad... it will usually be related to extremely runny cheese or skin slip.
- I no longer wrap my cheese unless they need to be packed away for a while in the colder part of the fridge. I find that the wrap too often kills the bloom and the bacteria recedes. Moist cheese will develop slip skin under it too. I see a lot of others who also don't do that. The French often turn the cheese during aging and tap the top, bottom and sides of it to transfer bacteria and to press the skin and flatten the mold. If you wrap, make sure you have excellent quality wrapping paper. I suggest to do half batch with and half without wrap to see which works out better for you and then you decide how to go about it next time
- Turn the cheese evening and morning if you can. It will help the mold grow evenly and also move minerals in the cheese all over it, equalizing the form, texture and flavor all around.
Wow! Excellent information. Thank you iratherfly!
My Cams have stopped draining mostly now so I will move to the cave while still checking every day. I am a bit fanatic about checking and turning my cheeses so happy to do so with these Cams too.
Is there any point when I might need to ADD humidity? My cave is at 80% by default but these cheeses are in microwave fish poachers with racks that sit above trays at the bottom (and lids).
If you put them in aging containers (i.e your fish poachers with lids on) you won't need to add humidity. As a matter of fact, you may want to use some of the dryer conditions of your cave when partially opening the lid to reduce humidity in the box. In the beginning you will have excess moisture. Another good thing to know is that cheese loves friends. If you can age all 6 of them in the same container you will get better results (of course they don't fit; don't stack them!)
But I would really watch for those draining platforms you are using, they leave your cheese touching too much whey. You really don't want to get toad skin or slip skin. Elevate it onto a sushi mat or some very loose and open plastic net
I've got bloom! Yay!
My Cams went into my cave last night and already today they have a lovely white fuzz starting. It's grown literally overnight.
Now I just need it to keep growing and hope I don't get any other kind of fuzz.
Pretty good speed! Were they out where it was hot? Or did you just use a quick PC strain like Neige?
They were at room temperature for 3 days. 36 hours in the molds then 36 hours draining/drying.
I then moved them into the cave (12c) in covered racks as shown.
This is what I have today, a week after making these cheeses.
I was planning to keep them at 12c until fully covered then wrap them and move them to the 9c part of the cave.
Good idea?
Wow, they look great. I just got a couple of the poachers like yours and am anxious to make my first cam's. Probably won't happen til I get back from vacation however. Headed to northern Minnesota next week for 10 days. Looking forward to that.
Yes, good idea. Just be careful with this thick mesh - you don't want to get skin slip. Look at how I make them to prevent this (look at the sushi mat I am using atop an elevating plastic grid which is laid on a paper towel in the box. You don't want the surface of the cheese to get too wet being blocked by too much box plastic surface, you want it aired nicely from below) see photo...
Unfortunately due to the height of my Camemberts I can't add sushi mats to the containers but I do have paper towel underneath the trays and I am flipping and checking for condensation morning and night (twice daily) as recommended.
I have a great coverage today but also have had a little bit of black mold which I have cut out and recovered with a bit of salt. Seems to be keeping on top of it.
I have been taking them out of the cave and leaving to air for an hour or two each day. This also seems to be helping the mold.
I would love these to work out as they are looking so lovely. Fingers crossed!!!
Sushi mat is actually quite thick. I now use plastic net on top of the plastic greed. It also prevents early contamination. Once you have coverage, if you don't wrap them you can put them on hay; this will give them awesome grassy aroma and will help the mold grow as well as wick out excess moisture.
You don't need to take them out of the cave; it would warm them up and may risk skin slip. You have about 2 weeks left to age them, the mold will grow just fine, I wouldn't worry. (If it doesn't that's usually a sign of curd acidity issue).
If your mold comes back, treat is with a drop of vinegar instead of salt.
My Cams are still doing well with lots of great bloom. I have though noticed a couple of bald spots and there are a few spots where I have had to remove black mold.
Should I leave them to continue growing the mold in the 12c of my cave? Or is there some 'drop dead' date when the mold will stop blooming altogehter?
Once these few spots are covered I am ready to wrap a few and keep a few in their containers and move them all to the cooler part of the cave.
Just not sure if there is some cut off point when I am wasting my time hoping for the final few spots to cover? Otherwise they look great!
If they have mostly bloomed, you can move them to the low temp refrigerator. Not sure why you have black mold,
As for wrapping them, I find that in some cases it does really good things for the cheese and in others it can cause the PC to recede and the Geo to take over, or worst, it can cause a skin slip or fast outside maturation before the inside is ripe. I used to blame myself for the errors until I found that some wrapping materials work incredibly well and some are "professional" yet bring abut poor results.
Since you have quite a few wheels there, I would suggest to test it out and see which works better for you by only wrapping half of the wheels. This way you can compare the development speed and quality and see if the rind looks different when wrapped or not. Better than having a mistake and having to throw all the cheese away...
Those look wonderful, ancksunamun.
I use the microwave containers for aging containers too. I find most of mine in second hand stores, haven't found any of the fish poacher shape yet.
~Laurie
Quote from: ancksunamun on September 10, 2010, 10:01:21 AM
They were at room temperature for 3 days. 36 hours in the molds then 36 hours draining/drying.
I then moved them into the cave (12c) in covered racks as shown.
This is what I have today, a week after making these cheeses.
I was planning to keep them at 12c until fully covered then wrap them and move them to the 9c part of the cave.
Good idea?
I have wrapped two of the Camemberts which are now completely covered in white mold.
The other four I still have in the poaching containers but the mold growth slowed down so I put some water in the bottom of them and this seems to have picked it up again. All I have to be careful with is making sure I wipe the lids morning and night.
I will wrap two more once they are fully bloomed and age the others in the container to see what difference it makes. So far they are all very firm and dense but hopefully they will soften over time.
Usually they should all mature at the same time. Do you age them at the same temp? (notice that different shelves int he cave/refrigerator has different temp so interchange them on a regular basis so they all get pretty much the same average treatment)
Don't wrap all of them. Leave some unwrapped and see which ones ripen better. Wrapping can often lead to slip skin, or, your beautiful white velvet can suddenly begin receding. I usually get better results by not wrapping. I keep them in a good humidity container and that's it.
As for adding water - that's a no-no. The cheese should have enough moisture in it to be able to release it into the air in its small closed aging container to create plenty of humidity throughout the aging process. Only if by some accident you left it uncovered and dried it to the point where the edges of the cheese are turning into a hard dry yellow, should you add water (and even then, you do it in a form of covering them with some basket and laying a moist sanitized towel on top of it. I find that these water containers can be risky contaminants). Don't speed up the process, let them develop. If you speed it up, you may get what looks like a gorgeous Camembert and feels soft and ready; but when you open it you will notice that only the outside has ripened. Give the paste inside enough time to mature and finish its lipolysis (21 days minimum). Remember that this is surface-ripened cheeses; they ripen from the outside in. It's like cooking; If you turn up the heat to cook something faster - you find out the outside cooked and the inside is still raw.
They are all on the same level (temp wise) but I have been switching them about to give them all the same conditions.
I am looking at wrapping 4 and aging 2 in the container. It's more a space thing than anything as the containers take up quite a lot of room.
Ops!!! :-[ I thought I had read somewhere to add water so decided to give it a go as mold growth had slowed down.
Off to empty them out now!! Point taken re ripening. Thank you for your help. Definitely feeling my way around blindly with this make. Only my 2nd go at Cams and feeling quite lost with how to get a good result.
Don't worry about it too much. Practice makes perfect and it may take a few batches to get the routine right and get that perfect cheese. For some people it takes years but I think you are on the right track.
Many times a receding or arrested mold growth has to do with acidity levels of your rind. Sometimes is has to do with the balance between the cultures. If you promote conditions that are better for Geo growth, it may end up overgrowing and taking the nutrients that the PC needs, thus starving it to death. If this keeps happening, reduce the amount of Geo on your next make,. It will also give you thinner rind. You can also experiment with different strains of geo and PC. Geo 13 for example is very aggressive and geo 17 is mild. PC Neige is fast growing and aggressive while PC VS is slow and mild but gives you more deep character. In other words, it's not all about your temp and humidity. There is that old saying "the cheese is made in the vat"; it's kind of almost true.
Well after some Cam newbie adjustments my cheeses came along really nicely and had a full mold growth.
In a spat of impatience (and curiosity) I cut into one 4 weeks in just to see what was going on. It is still very firm (although it softened a fair bit after leaving it out) but it had a lovely taste and my partner claimed it was "exactly like Camembert". Lol!
I will be leaving the others a bit longer now to see how they age differently with more time.
Nice Cheese, Nice Photo, too
Great photo, Anck. What kind of camera are you using? The photo is so clear I can see your finger print!
I've noticed as I turn my mold ripened chevre and my crottin that I am leaving finger prints and am trying to figure out how to turn them without causing any squishing of the mold.
Christine
That's a great looking Camembert. It makes me hunger for cheese, bread and butter ;D
I have major camembert envy. What a perfect looking beauty.
I just checked mine, 4 weeks old, & my finger went straight through a runny mess, so sad :'(
Back to the drawing board.
Can I ask what recipe you followed? Also what milk did you use.
Well done, it gives me hope that it can be done :)
Beautiful photo, beautiful cheese. Is it the earthquake cheese? I remember you posted that you were busy making cheeses and it helped create a sense of normalcy after the terrifying earthquake. I'm interested in your recipe and procedure too, it looks good. :)
~Laurie
Beautiful! Looks so yummy! I too would like to know which recipe you used. I'm hoping the ones I have aging turn out as lovely as yours!
Very nice looking Cam ancksunamun! I like to photo too great angle!
They look great! 4 weeks should be more than plenty to eat them even though the past looks a bit young. Lots of eyes in them so I guess you had a bit of yeast or very loose curd that didn't know all the way (or the cow's feed is silage so it's just gas) but they look beautiful and healthy.
How was the salt on them?
The ultimate test is to cut a wedge and put it out and wait for about 20 minutes or so until it reaches room temperature - the flavor will open up and the outer part will turn more creamy and liquidy. This is the best way to gauge the quality.
Really terrific looking! Congrats!
I cut off a few more wedges and left them out for a bit and YUM! This cheese is so creamy and delicious. The flavour seems to be spot on. I am very happy with the results considering these cheeses had to survive a 7.1 earthquake.
I'm thinking the eyes in my cheese may be to do with the Sourdough starter sitting on my bench at the time. It has since been banished to the fridge and I'm also stacking my molds this time to 'tighten' the curd up a little.
Just to prove that cheese making is always a moving target I made exactly the same cheese last night but when I went to check my curd I had perfectly liquid milk still?? Have no idea what happened as my rennet is fine (made a perfect Haloumi the night before) and after adding the same dose again I got a pretty good curd. It had me almost thinking I had lost my marbles and had never added the rennet like I thought I had. I'm d#@n sure I did though.
And to test myself further I decided to try the straight ladle technique rather than cutting first. I'm not a fan. The curds seeped (which I didn't have happen last time) and when I went to flip this morning they were still very wet and fragile). I have them pressing a little today, under each other's weight (as above) so will see what I get but I will be returning to my original recipe next time.
Oh well, one must try these things.
your cheese looks really good and the phote is great, love to know your cam recipe too and your camera
Try the flocculation multiplier method instead of counting time. This will give yo consistent results as it will "follow" your "moving target". If your weather is different, the animal feed has changed, your milk temp or acidity is not the same - this can happen. The spinning bowl method overcomes all these variables. (Are you familiar? There are many references to it on this forum)
I wouldn't stack them. It affects the pH balance of the curd and may flatten it too much or remove too much moisture too quickly. If you ever see traditional Camembert and Brie makers, they usually just let it drain. Some of them put little steel disks with minimal weight on top to just help the whey extract faster. (may give you chalky dry, brittle camembert and slow down mold growth).
Stacking belongs with a harder cheese like Tomme style. Camembert acidifies in the vat (hence the long wait time) and semi-hard Tomme style cheese has short time in the vat followed by long pressing that helps it acidify out of the vat.
Ladling will give you a more moist cheese. If too much curd escapes, use a bottom net that has higher density. It should let a bit of curd out at first and then stop as the net fills up and the curd above it begins to knot.
Unfortunately this was nothing to do with flocculation times (which am familiar with and use). I believe there was contamination in the milk container as the next batch of cheese I went to make did exactly the same thing. Absolutely no curd after over 2 hours. I deduced it was the container after realising that my Haloumi came out perfect but it also came from my 10 litre container. The two duds came from another 20 litre container. :(
Ops, meant to mention, I only stacked 1 cheese on top of another so it was minimal weight (probably about the same as a metal disk).
I was open to experimenting from the start with this cheese (trying the ladling and stacking for knit) so wasn't necessarily concerned about getting it perfect. I wanted to see what affected what in the outcome. They are looking really good again but I think they will be bitter because of the additional rennet.
I have my other lovelies that I have been enjoying and am making another batch tomorrow with exactly the same original recipe and method. Experimenting done for now.
Sorry for the very late response. I find it hard to believe it's contamination. Acid maybe (soap or sanitizer left in the container, something gone rancid inside, maybe it's your utensils or thermometer, the dish that you used for rennet or cultures?) but contamination would have to be pretty bad for this to happen. 5 minute of milk acidification should be enough for you to get curd after you add rennet. You hardly need to create bacteria for this enzyme to work. Adding the bacteria and acidifying for so long only helps the milk because you are growing an overwhelming competing bacteria that eats up all the nutrients of other contaminating bacteria and pathogens. Acid though is capable of changing the milk pH violently enough to keep the rennet from working. If that's not it, than maybe you just had a funky milk. This happens with lactation and seasonal changes, animal diet and medicine, etc. It has happened to me before and to many others on this forum, one batch of milk that just doesn't cooperate.
Are you using a single or double strength rennet? Have you switched rennet to a new bottle size or a different brand lately?
As for the stacking - a cheese's weight is too much for a Camembert to handle. The french discs are about 35g-80g. Your fresh watery cheese is probably about 300-400g. It may expel the whey too fast before it is done working its magic. Just let it drip until it's done. I guarantee it will give you a better cheese.
Well I cut into this last batch of Cams last night and OMG!!! I think I briefly went to cheese heaven. They have turned out amazing with a lovely creamy paste and a brilliant taste. We had friends over when I cut into it and as I exclaimed "This is b#$%dy good" they replied "B#$%dy good! It's incredible" so I got my affirmation there.
There is no hint of the bitterness I was worried about and all of the cheeses developed the most wonderful, full cover of mold. I expected a complete failure here and was actually going to chuck them out. I let them carry more out of interest than anything and boy am I pleased I did!
I'll add a pic of a cut cheese tonight (we ate the other one with such gusto I didn't get a picture) but I have added a pic to show the mold coverage. I am really thrilled with this cheese, more so even than the last batch which appeared to have 'worked' better so it goes to show you never can tell.
I made 2 Farmhouse Cheddars and a Colby after this batch BTW and had no problem with coagulation again. I know for sure it wasn't the milk that was bad last time but what it was about that 1 container I don't know. Oh well, all was not lost it seems.
Oh and from this 'experiment' I will definitely be carrying on with the ladling method of putting my curds in the molds. I am sure it has contributed to the wonderful soft creaminess of this batch. I take back my earlier decision on that one.
Thank you for sharing your great pictures and experience. I am thinking of making my first camembert and have been watching your 'story'. Which recipe are you using? If I may ask a newbie question. What is the ladle method?
Susan
Congrats! What a great feeling!
This is great! Congrats! Just keep doing it this way!
Thanks iratherfly.
I have to say that your help has gone a long way towards refining this make and I now feel like I have a method that will work well each time. I have actually quite enjoyed sticking to a type of cheese and working on improving it with experimentation and advice so as to get a pretty reliable (as reliable as it can be) product.
I made another batch this weekend and used the ladle method again. It is definitely a more delicate curd to work with at the start but the results are well worth it.
Also have my aging process down pat and am getting a really great mold every time with relatively little effort.
I will post my recipe for those who asked shortly. In regards to the camera questions, I used my Panasonic Lumix for this shot though I also use a Nikon D70 as well. I find the Lumix has a great Macro function which I tend to use more in my food pictures.
Nice clear pics of some good-looking cheeses.
Well done in both cases!
-Boofer-
Thanks ancksunamun! Really nice to hear that :) Glad I could save you milk and/or time/frustration. If you think your cheese is fantastic now, just wait 6 months and see where you are at! I think you have a natural knack for it.
Will you try it with a goat's milk next? Yummm!
Hi there ancksunamun these babies look delicious!
Can wait to see the recipe!
Well done. Have you tried any other cheeses?