I seem to have made what I feel has been a comedy of errors with this cheese, I was wondering if anyone with more experience could unravel the causes.
I made a batch of 2 large 250gm each Camembert 4 weeks ago, the recipe I used said they were ready to consume from 2.5 - 3.5 weeks old, so i decided to open the first at 3 weeks. On opening the cheese two things were apparent, One I buggered up the volume of rennet (I used 1ml should have used 0.8ml with 4Lt of milk), and two the centre of the cheese was hard and the consistency of a cheddar. After a few words I cant repeat (I think I said "how interesting" lol) I decided to place the 2nd cheese back in the cave for another week to see if there was any change in the hard centre. Today I decided to open the 2nd cheese, I noticed it was weeping from the top edges, i cut the cheese in half and again the centre was hard and inedible. Was this as a result of my impatience with a slow maturing cheese? Or was there a misshap with the starter culture?
Bishop,
Ya know - that cheese doesn't really look that bad. But, I think your time line for ripening seems rather short for this cheese. Usually, it won't even get a decent bloom before 2 - 3 weeks. I usually age mine for at least 6-8 weeks. You were doing something right - no slip skin and it looks like it was starting to age well. I just think it could use some more ripening time. Maybe the amount of rennet you added might have done something, but it wasn't off that badly. I would definitely give it some more time in your "cave".
Bonnie
I'm still trying to make a "Mistake" that looks that good
Whats your thoughts on the moisture seeping from the top edges, I rubbed salt on it and before I new it I had moisture running down the side? when I cut the cheese the corners seemed quite thin?
I agree with Bonnie. I never find them ripe enough by 4 weeks like the recipes say. I find they are usually perfect at 7+. Usually I age them at +/- 50F for about 4 weeks, then put them in my regular fridge for 3 more.
I'm not sure about the moisture question. How much was it weeping? Was the cheese at room temp in the photo?
I think the cheese looks pretty good. How did it taste?
Pam
They look very much like the very young camemberts that you would get from the supermarket. I think that they just need to age a little bit more.
That's what mine have looked like when I've tried them early. I know the conventional wisdom says you can't age them one their opened, but I think that means they won't reach their full potential once their opened. I have had very good success with them continuing to ripen when I've wrapped them in cheese paper and leaving them alone in the fridge for several weeks. Reading this I got a half a camm and let it warm on the counter and it was quite nice.
Looking at the weeping in your picture, I'm wondering if you have been monitoring the humidity in your ripening process? Is there a chance the cheese was too humid? Did you wipe the condensation off your container?
I wouldn't think it is a rennet issue as I recently had a Cam that I doubled the rennet over recommended doses and still got a perfect paste.
Hi Ancksunamun, I'm thinking your correct about the rennet not being my biggets issue here, I did taste the edges and there definitely was a bitter after taste I put that down to using 1/5 too much rennet, are you using Calf or Veg rennet?
Hi ConnieG, I should have given more info to start with, it was wrapped in baking paper then again in cling film, there was condensation in the film but it doesn't reach past the baking paper, at the time of the picture I had let it air dry at room temp 15C/60F for about 1.5 hours hoping the condensation was from the surface not internal.
Hey Helen, funny you should say that I was wrapt this batch came out sitting high and bouncy like new puppeis in the window of the pet shop, in hind site they were holing ther shape so well because they were solid lol.
mtncheesemaker(Pam), the cheese was at room temp but the condensation was there immediately out of the fridge, it got dramatically worse when i rubbed salt on it, next I new I was wiping it up with paper towel. The texture was nice and creamy, there was the bitter finish I believe that to be 1/5 too much rennet.
Too much rennet will definitely contribute to your bitterness Bishop.
When did you wrap your cheeses? I don't wrap mine until they are fully bloomed (2-3 weeks) but your post sounds like they were wrapped early, and in quite a confined wrap. I use breathable cheese wrap with no issues.
you're right ancksunamun it bloomed after 3/4 days & i wrapped it after being in the cave for 11 days, I definitely need to buy propper wrap I would say ;)
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Lets try again!
This next one looks better, Its seems the general consenses is these camemberts need need longer than my recipe advises 2-4 weeks maturation for "modern Camembert" this pic is at 2.5 wks, I have put it back together and its back in the fridge firmly wrapped.
2.5 weeks
Looks much better! I think your error with the initial batch were either that the aging temp too high at the early stage of the aging and/or you kept it in the cave for too long and didn't move it to lower temp early enough. There is also a possibility that there wasn't enough salt. Wrong wrapping can also cause this.
This cheese (especially in this size) should be perfect at 21-24 days. no more, no less.
Your new one looks much better but I suspect you may be using the wrong strain of PC (or too much of it, or you are not using Geo). It is way too fluffy and thick. The French during affinage of this cheese pat it down with their hands whenever they turn it, kind of flattening the bloom and making it more dense. They do all the cheese in the cave at once with their bear hands so their hands transfer the bacterium from one cheese to the other. I suggest you do that. It would really help the quality of the cheese.
Hi Iratherfly, I use Geotrichum Candidum direct vat set. The recipe I use says to add the Geo to the milk with the culture and also a spec to the brine. I will definitely be patting/handling them to pat the fluff down & I put best consumption dates on the wrapping.
Thanks ;)
Which Geo? 13? 15? 17? I suggest Geo 15 or Geo 17.
More importantly, which PC? SAM3? VS? Neige? I suggest PC VS.
Also, I strongly suggest not to brine this cheese but to hand salt it with kosher salt. Use 2.5% of the cheese's weight in salt. Don't worry about 2.5% looking like too much salt and don't worry that the flakes are large: The flakes will melt and this amount of salt takes in consideration the expulsion of moisture out of the cheese, in which much of the salt will be drained out with the whey in the first 1-3 days.
By the way, did you wrap the cheese? At what point? I don't wrap the cheese until it's done if I use the patting method and an aging container. MUCH better cheese.
Thanks Iratherfly! The only detail on the pack of geo I use says "PC VB LYO 10D" Can I assume if I didnt brine the cheese then I would only be adding Geo to the milk with the culture? What diferences would hand salting produce as opposed to brine?
I wrapped the cheese on day 11 as per the recipe, one thing I may need to look at the rack the cheese sits on leaves thin 1mm channels in the surface of the cheese and the geo seemes to take to these channels very quickly, perhaps I need a different rack.
Do you have any reading info on the different strains of Geo you listed?
Thanks again for your help its been great.
You are welcome.
I have actually seen PC VB mentioned here a couple of times before but never used it and couldn't find any data sheets about it anywhere. Do you have one? What made you choose it? There are some difference between PC strains in the speed and agressivness of growth, density and height, the lyposis and proteolytic activity (greatly effect the flavor, texture and aroma of the cheese). They also have different stability and shelf life and some have anti-mucor properties. My favorites are the classic VS and the slightly more aggressive Neige. They are stable and predictable and have lots of character.
I am not sure about your brine question: Did you add Geo to the brine??? The way to make these is to heat up milk -> inoculate the starter, geo and PC at the same time -> wait to acidicy -> add CalCl2 (if needed) -> add rennet -> wait for coagulation -> cut curd as needed -> ladle to hoops -> dry for a day, turning occasionally -> remove from hoops -> hand salt each side ->continue draining in cave at 55F -> move to aging container 55F/85%-90%RH and bloom, turn daily, pat with hands -> move to refrigeration until ripe, around day 21 -> get a baguette and nice glass of wine, it's time.
If you use the hand patting method there is no reason to wrap. In me experience wrapping invites more trouble than helps. (unless you hand pat with dirty hands >:D ) Do wrap them though when they are done and seem ripe while they await consumption.
As for brining, tradition is not to brine these. It's not going to kill them, but I do find that it builds a harder rind way too soon for a cheese whose purpose is to bloom the rind by keeping it moist. The rind is the reason for the entire character of this cheese and a thick rind would slow down the rind bacteria effect on the paste. Some users here like Alex, also have and alternative method whereby they salt the curd in the whey before ladling it into the hoops. Bottom line: do what works best for you. Experiment until you get the best cheese to your liking. You are not bound by any rules to do it this way or another way.
For your questions about Geo, look at page 4 of the following Danisco Choozit catalog: (see PDF attachment below)
Great info, Yoav. Thanks.
Yoav, PC VB is an old LactoLabo strain, IIRC... from Dange-St-Romain. Don't think I have a spec sheet on it, will look.
The reason for choosing this strain of Geo was mealy due to a lack of range available - I will defiantly be on the hunt for other strains. I was lucky enough to try some Fromage D'Affinois double cream the other day, the rind and Geo was that soft it was like eating whipped cream, immediately I wondered how they produced the rind? You certainly have given me some ideas ;).
The recipe I use is the same as you have described except i add Geo prior to the rennet as well as a spec to the Brine, I cant wait to dry salt my next batch and see the difference.
thanks for the catalogue
No problem Bishop.
Yes, rinding is an art for of its own, possibly the most difficult part of affinage and cheesemaking in general. Especially when your imagination is wilder than the rind you are trying to build up (I mean, when imagining a new cheese recipe invention).
I have never heard of geo in the brine. It seems useless to me as 18% salt would kill it before it even hits your cheese. You can certainly help the rind grow by mixing a 3% salt brine with PC and Geo in a spray bottle and spray the cheese once or twice a day in the first few days (not neccesary) but in 18% salt brine that is actually meant to flavor the cheese, it is just a waste of culture.
Linuxboy - thanks! Can you describe the PC VB? Have you tried it before? Do you think this is the reason for the high growth of PC in Bishop's 2nd photo? It just looks a bit wild...
Just an update, the below is now 5 and a half weeks old, It was the last one I brined but I have been patting it down daily, just wrapped yesterday as I decided they needed to be in a warmer part of the fridge (container wouldn't fit in the fridge compartment) ::)
These ones are only 2 weeks old, I hand salted as recommended and I pat daily, cant wait to cut it and see how it went! I also broke the golden rule and made a couple of changes in one hit, i cut slightly larger curds and I air dried for 6 hours less. Cant wait!
Fingers crossed
Wow! These look great! And only in 2 weeks! Pat them down less often and wait to see some geo (dark yellow) appears from underneath in a few different spots. Should be ready to eat by day 21 to 24 in my opinion. Really great looking
Thanks for the kind words Iratherfly! Your right to question they were 2 weeks old, I made them on 4/12 so I probably should have said 3 weeks old. I might cut one tonight, Its Christmas day afternoon right now so I might get away with taking one to a family get together tonight! I have decided I have been storing them in a fridge that's just too cold so I am just sticking to the wine fridge!
I'll take your advise on patting them less
Well, did you open it? How was it?
At this stage they are softening and fully bloomed so you should slow them down and move them to cold refrigeration. They will age too quickly now in the wine refrigerator. You don't want the outer paste to turn to ammonia and the inner paste to keep ripe. Slowing it down will now bring the development of the center and the outer paste together gently.
Sorry Iratherfly lol,
I've been very busy eatind, drinking, socialising and sleeping far too much. I did cut the cheese but didn't take it to dinner, i figured most people have already stuffed themselves over lunch and don't eat much in the evening.
You will notice a little chunk taken out of the top half on the bottom right side to taste. I'm very very happy with the way it has turned out! best one yet!
I did what you said and gave the patting a rest for 2 days and walla! Creamy yellow Geo has started to appear on the surface, Its hard to get the photo to show this as it is only just noticeable in person.
I've had a few people at work wondering if I actually made cheese as I have been waiting for one nice enough to show them & not just talk about it, I think this one will be great to take!
I add Geo to the milk, and do not brine, but direct salt after molding. I have followed Yoav's direction to not wrap after white bloom develops; yet rather to pat down the bloom while still at high humidity in the cave. I love this method! Your earlier pics had slip-skin, which is what appears to be the rind coming away from the cheese. The late pics did not have this appearance--interesting what a few more weeks of aging will do.
Oh my, oh my! Congrats Bishop, it looks SO good!!! That rind looks perfect. It is probably stable enough to keep ripe for a couple of weeks before it begins to over-ripen. So nice! really happy for you. How's the aroma? Flavor? Texture?
Hi Brie,
sure is interesting, amazing how subtle changes can make a big difference.
Hi Iratherfly,
the plan now is to try and change the tide and make good ones more often ;) Anyhow, to your Aroma, Flavour and Texture question, I've never had to put cheese quality into words before, to be honest its been a struggle! But I'll do my best so here goes.
The aroma has a very soft mushroom smell about it, the lovely Strong creamy culture smell has all but gone.
The Flavour is very mild at first as the paste has a very pannacotta texture about it, as the cheese warms in the mouth I get a stronger mildly sharp flavour that quickly moves to a rounder flavour with a creamy note to finish.
As i said I can only think of Pannacotta to compare the texture of the past, its very consistent throughout the body of the cheese, the rind is subtle and supports the cheese as opposed to many of my previous batches the heavier rind almost intruded on the cheese.
or
As most of my work collieges said when trying this cheese for the first time on Thursday "wow it actually tastes like cheese? I like it" ??? I don't know if I should take that as a compliment or insult lol
Your description sounds very proper! (better than "tastes like cheese") sounds like a perfect camembert!